ANSWCU 16 : 26 APRIL 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH STAN YATES WHO WAS A DIRECTOR OF THE ASSOCIATION OF NEW SOUTH WALES CREDIT UNIONS, WHEN IT WAS THE LEAGUE
I will ask you Mr Yates, where were you born and when?
SY: I was born at North Sydney at St Leonard’s on 6 December 1917.
Did you grow up in North Sydney?
SY: No, actually I didn’t. We left North Sydney probably when I was about eight years old I think, probably about 1925 or 1926. We lived in Canberra and Queanbeyan for several years and later on returned to Sydney. On our return we didn’t go back to North Sydney we lived in the Canterbury district for some time. I went to high school there. I went to primary school for a while and then went on to Canterbury Boys’ High School from about 1930 to 1935 when I obtained my Leaving Certificate.
What subjects did you like and dislike?
SY: Not so much a case of liking or disliking. I did quite have an interest in foreign languages and I specialised in Latin and Greek, for which I got First Class Honours for my Leaving and also got Honours in French.
Did you go on with that?
SY: No, it was just a case of economic circumstances and I had to go to work. Then I think the War broke out a little later and I didn’t get back to doing any formal studying. Although I have kept an active interest in things of that nature and I taught myself to at least be able to read in Spanish and Italian and a couple of other languages to keep my mind occupied to a certain extent.
Where did you go to work first?
SY: At the Registrar General’s. I was there from early 1936, I have got a feeling in was on 11 February I started. Early in the War years I was loaned like several other people to the Taxation Department, because we were employed in the Land Titles Office and there were certain restrictions on buying and selling of land at the time. The work load was therefore decreased but the Taxation Department, as is normal I suppose especially in wartime, was rather active. I had War service afterwards of course.
What was your job in the Land Titles Office?
SY: Well when I first started off I had to register endorsements on to titles there, the transfer of mortgages and things of that nature. For a while I became I think the title was Assigner, I had to check other people’s work.
Was there a dearth of work there?
SY: No, I don’t think so, although there were times when you were busier than other times. There were times when the work was rather slack, I mean you can’t register more things than the applications. Other times of course it would vary a lot the number of dealings.
What about the Taxation Department, what did you do there?
SY: Well, I was first employed in what they called Group Section, I think, where they inaugurated the PAYE system. Later on I became an Instalments Inspector. I used to have to run about interviewing employers and so on in respect of their employees tax deductions and various other matters concerned. Occasionally I had to recommend that people be prosecuted for some infringement of the Act.
You joined the army, I understand.
SY: Yes, well my military service, and I can’t remember the dates exactly, but I did join what we nicknamed the Choko’s, the old militia in early 1939, before the War started. At that time we used to go to camp for a fortnight each year and you would have to go along once a month to the drill hall for training. After the declaration of War I was called up for longer periods of training and so on. I was prevented from joining the AIF for a while because the Department wouldn’t let you join. Then after they introduced uniform taxation I was able to join the AIF. I did a six months course on what they called radio physics and had to study maths and physics, which weren’t my best subjects at school, but strangely enough I seemed to do well in the army training. Then I used to have to work on the radar equipment and after the training I was sent up to Newcastle in the first instance on what they called SHD or Shore Defence for shipping. Later on I went to New Guinea to look after the radar connected with the Elseys, as they called them, searchlights.
Did you see much action over there?
SY: No, I used to fight mosquitos and that sort of business. I think I was very fortunate. I remember I went to Lae and the Japanese had been over the place about a week or so before and made a little bit of a mess of it. I was no hero, I was close enough behind to hear the gunfire in the distance I think, when I first went there.
Where did you go from there?
SY: Well, after a period there I was brought back to Australia and hanging about various camps. I was at Strathpine I think and we just about ready to go abroad again when Emperor Hirohito decided it was best to give up the struggle and that was it.
Did you go back to your old job?
SY: Yes I went back to the Taxation Department. As a matter of fact they got me out of the army then and I would probably have had to wait another six months to get out of the army but they got me out as soon as they could. We were told we could go back to the State Public Service or stay there. Well I thought, ‘Well I’m here now so I might as well stay,’ and that was it. I stayed there until 1954 when I just got a little bit tired of the Federal Public Service and decided to resign. I looked for another job and actually moved on the other side of the road to the Electricity Commission.
Where as the office then?
SY: Where the Commonwealth Savings Bank is, in Martin Place. The Electricity Commission was spread out in various buildings, but where I was employed was on the other side of the road more or less directly opposite where I had been working in the Taxation Department.
What was your job there?
SY: I used to prepare and check pay-rolls mainly. Preparation and checking of pay-rolls.
When did you first hear about credit unions?
SY: Well, from Harry Head I think, he used to write something in the Network magazine about credit unions. I had a yarn with him and got a little bit interested and joined.
The credit union was already founded when you became a member?
SY: Yes. Harry Head had actually started it. It had been going in a fairly small way, but it was just beginning to get a bit of a kick-on when I joined. I remember Harry Head had membership number one and my number was five hundred and seventy six, I think. Then of course it grew to many thousands later.
Where was the credit union office?
SY: It was in Kelvin House at the time. We had no paid employees at the time, I remember that I was first on the Board. After I came on the Board with all the increasing membership it was just impossible for volunteers to do everything in their spare time. We had to earn a living and we couldn’t be spending all our time writing out loan agreements and you obviously couldn’t spend every night back or take too much home.
Did you have a need for credit before you joined the credit union?
SY: A need for credit? Not particularly.
Did you get turned down at all by any other financial organisations?
SY: I wasn’t rolling in money, but I didn’t have any particular interest in getting credit at the time that I joined, or anything like that. I just started reading credit union literature and I thought it was a very desirable type of organisation to join and get an interest in.
What made you put up for the Board? Were you asked to?
SY: Oh, I don’t think I can join an organisation without somebody trying to suggest that I take a job of some nature in it. It is obvious that I am just that sort of person who takes enough active interest in any organisation that I join and somebody would more-or-less suggest to me that why not apply for a vacancy on the Committee or the Board or whatever it is. I can’t join too many organisations for that particular reason, because I always end with a job.
How can you compare the credit union when you first joined it to later times? I mean how many members did you have when you first joined?
SY: As I said, I was number five hundred and seventy-six, but whether they had that number at the time, some of them may have fallen by the wayside. I would say it probably had four or five hundred members anyway. Later on it quite built up.
Do you remember how it started? Can you remember the credit union starting or was it before you went there?
SY: No, I think it had been going for a little while before I knew of what it was or something about it. Then I think it just sort of grew, not so much by good publicity or anything else, I consider the best publicity we had was that we gave good service to people. Everything moved by word of mouth. I know things have changed in lots of ways over the many years, because as I mentioned we had been just a few more-or-less amateurs in the first instance trying to put our spare time into it. But as time went on we had to be a bit more professional and we had to be able to get the funds to lend larger amounts and we had to devise lending policies and various things. I used to find some of the policies and that in operation, not only in my own credit union but in some other credit unions, were unduly harsh and so on. They were almost as bad as what we say about the banks at times where they would lend you a hundred dollars as long as you had five hundred dollars to cover it. We were helped in a lot of ways by pay-roll deductions so we didn’t have to do that much chasing up.
You were in the pay office?
SY: I was actually in the time-keeping. We didn’t pay out the money actually, but of course we were directly involved, and we used to have to sign authorities for so much to be deducted for just savings alone or a combination of savings and loan repayments.
When you first were at ElCom and in the pay office were you before the credit union was formed?
SY: I think I would have been. I went there in 1954 and I don’t think the credit union was formed until probably a little bit later.
Were many of the people who were employees there, from your point of view in the pay office, hit with garnishees or in the hands of loan sharks and such like?
SY: I do know there were some people who did have garnishee orders against them and that sort of business and probably in the hands of money lenders or something like that.
What about the finance companies?
SY: Generally finance companies as well, you know the hire purchase companies.
When I was in the pay office, I was a foreman or factory supervisor at one stage, and I used to have to handle the pay as well and I used to notice that particular finance companies used to be very, very heavy handed with the way the handled finance from people.
SY: Yes, well I think we all agree on that point. They were.
They didn’t seem to have any sort of a limit. They didn’t worry as long as they could sell things to them. I remember particularly Waltons was bad in those days.
SY: You should have seen H G Palmers. One time I had got a little flat and I didn’t have a TV set and I thought it might be a good idea to get a TV set and I went to see H G Palmers. I didn’t even know what I would require actually so I described the flat and various things and approximate price. So they said they would send me one to try out. Anyhow they forgot to call and I thought they weren’t interested in my business. They had asked me if I wanted credit or to pay cash and I said pay cash. Anyhow they forgot to call and I thought what they were after was to sell credit rather than TV sets. So I didn’t have any more dealings with them.
So when you became a Director of the credit union were you much involved with the Loan Committee?
SY: Yes, heavily involved in the Loan Committee.
What about savings and loan counselling?
SY: Yes. Of course that necessarily followed. I think I learned a certain amount about that business by attending some of those credit union Schools that I attended.
Which is the one that you attended first?
SY: I went to Newport several times.
Was that the first one you went to, Newport?
SY: Yes, I think so.
So would that be about 1965?
SY: Yes, it would have been about that period. I remember I spent some time there, about a week I think. There were discussions and lectures and various things. We certainly had to do a lot of loan counselling, though I suppose without experience it was a bit difficult when you could see some people were going overboard and not necessarily by having a huge total debt but by a number of small repayments and so on. Necessarily you would have to try and consolidate it and have smaller repayments. You had to judge their actual capacity to pay. You wasted your time in a number of instances, I suppose, but you had to give your best advice to people just how to look after their financial affairs.
When you were involved, from that point of view in counselling, did you do many consolidation loans?
SY: Quite a few, I should imagine. I couldn’t say what percentage, but you would have to go through their total commitments and not just add another loan to somebody who is already over-burdened with repayments.
Can you think of any stories, either amusing or any other type of stories, no names of course, that you can tell?
SY: I have seen some funny reasons for loans, but I just can’t think of a good one at the moment.
Did you get the punters trying it on sometimes?
SY: I know that we had to help out a few punters, but I don’t think it was always judicious, because punters are virtually incurable I think. My personal opinion of punters is that they are pretty hard to cure.
If you can get a pay-roll deduction out of them you might be fairly well ahead?
SY: Yes, because you paid some of them and they were just as likely to go and put something on the fifth race on Saturday anyway. The worst were the poker machine addicts. I have seen a few credit union Directors and even League Directors who have had me worried on poker machines. I have seen them playing poker machines to excess, but I’d better not mention any names there.
The ElCom Credit Union, did you have representatives around the State or was it all Head Office only?
SY: Now, there was a story behind that. Actually the ElCom Credit Union originally covered only employees in the metropolitan region. But there were several other smaller credit unions. One was at Tullawarra, one at Wongi and one at Wallerawang who formed credit unions. Their total maximum membership would have been about three or four hundred so they were just small ones. They had formed independently one covering Vales Point and Mundoora. There were numbers of small country sectors where they had ninety or a hundred on the pay-roll, or even less, that weren’t covered by credit unions at all. Those centres didn’t have enough employees to make it a viable proposition to form a separate credit union, so they weren’t covered. So we did arrange with the three at Tullawarra, Wongi and Wallerawang to become merged with us, I mean we started it off and got our own Bond, and they became merged with us. They had local committees and representation on the Board in their own right. We managed to have the Bond altered so that we could cover several of the smaller country centres.
End Tape 1A: 2882 Words: 1 hour 20 minutes.
ANSWCU 16 : 26 APRIL 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH STAN YATES
As far as your own credit union was concerned were there any defalcations? Did you have any problems at all?
SY: Oh well at times, yes. Especially if it was a very large one. We would have had trouble with defalcations.
That is employees or volunteers?
SY: Bad debts, not defalcations. I don’t know of any defalcations. That is another kettle of fish. I am sorry, I am usually most meticulous in my use of words, but I misunderstood there.
Well you have been lucky in that case. Have you ever had any trouble with bad debts, but with you in the pay office it must have been easy? You would only get them when people were leaving wouldn’t you?
SY: Mainly, not of any major thing. We did have certainly a few dubious debts, but I don’t think it was ever any major problem.
You were insured for that?
SY: Yes, Now wait a minute, we had insurance but that covered us in the case of deceased employees.
Loan protection?
SY: Yes, loan protection insurance.
Did you have that through the League?
SY: Yes, originally the insurance company was it National Mutual?
I think it was TNG in the first place and after that it was CUMIS and CUNA Mutual.
SY: Was it TNG, I thought it was one of the mutuals. It was certainly through the League and then through the CUNA Mutual.
When the League withdrew their insurance from CUMIS, CUNA Mutual, did your credit union still stay with the League?
SY: Well we stayed with the League, but as far as insurance we stayed with CUNA Mutual.
When the League gave up insuring through CUNA Mutual and CUMIS did your credit union stay with the League?
SY: For a time they did, but later on they withdrew from the League.
The League insurance company of the League?
SY: The League itself.
When was this? Is that when the insurance split happened throughout the movement?
SY: Well it was a bit later that the actual insurance split. It was a particular time when we just had some people around who were anti-League sort of business and they had control. They considered that the affiliation fees were too much and they just wanted to get away from the League.
Were you on the Board then?
SY: Yes, I think I was still on the Board. I voted against it, disaffiliation. Anyhow it didn’t do any good.
If you were on the Board then, it must have been when you left the Board?
SY: It was about that time, because I decided amongst other things that one particular year I just felt that I needed a bit of a rest from being a member of the Board so I didn’t stand for re-election. It would have been, I think, about possibly 1973 sometime.
Well the insurance split happened at the end of 1971, beginning of 1972.
SY: I know, the reason ultimately went back to the insurance, but there were other factors anyway. Some people were just anti-League.
When you became a member of the League Board in 1963, can you remember who put you up?
SY: Who put me up? I got there by accident as far as I was concerned. I got my own people to nominate me. I thought they would see my name on it but as nobody knew me I would probably only get two or three votes, but at least they would seen my name. By accident, I suppose, there were six vacancies and six nominations and that was it. That was how I actually got on, by a fluke more-or-less.
Can you remember who was the President at that time?
SY: Stan Arneil was still the President at the time.
Yes he was, Stan Arneil, 1963, yes.
SY: Then Don Harvey and Berry Calverley. At the time there was a lot of competition between several people for the Presidency. I remember my first vote when Don Harvey opposed Stan Arneil, I had nothing particular against Stan Arneil, as a matter of fact I used to get on quite well with him, but I thought he had three years and I have never liked the idea of what I call permanent Presidents anyway, so I decided to vote for Don Harvey. Well Stan wasn’t very happy about it and I had a lot of lobbying from various people because I think I was in one of these positions where my vote was crucial. That was it, Don Harvey was elected. When Berry was first elected I was in a similar position too, of people lobbying for my vote. Berry, incidentally, died too didn’t he? Well Ken Miller, that was the time I went off the Board. Ken had a long period 1967 to 1974.
Did somebody stand against you, or did you not stand for re-election in 1967?
SY: As a matter of fact it was Keith Miller who beat me, I think it was a tight vote. I got re-elected, the first time I stood for re-election would have been 1964 or 1965. Then the following election, as a matter of fact I think the voting took quite a long time and apparently Ken Miller just beat me. I had not many regrets about that because it was just one of those things. Actually I thought Ken would make a good Director, as he apparently did, and they kept on re-electing him as President.
Now during the time that you were a Director what were the things at issue, what were the matters at issue? Insurance was one, wasn’t it?
SY: Well at that time of course the insurance because that is when we did go over to CUNA Mutual. CUNA Mutual were running Schools and so on and various things. A lot of us had some sympathy with them. But some people started working out figures and thought we could do much better and so on. CUNA Mutual’s relations with the main body, CUNA, haven’t always been the most harmonious, I think that is a case of euphemism isn’t it?
I think you might be right. I think in 1967 when you left the Board, Dermot Ryan, Ken Miller and a number of the others were over in America and that is when it came to a vote, I understand.
SY: Yes. Yes, as I said, speaking quite euphemistically the relations between the two organisations weren’t the most harmonious and that is why the League dropped them. There was a way of calculating rebates too that was quite complicated, if I remember, and it didn’t seem very satisfactory to everybody. Then of course we had revolutions more-or-less from people like Stan and a few others. Of course Stan was at that time he was the Vice-President of Australian Operations, or something or other.
Were you on the Board when that happened?
SY: When he was first made that? I think I was still on the Board when Stan was made the Vice-President by CUNA Mutual. I think I was still on the Board.
What about when Stan was actually working for the Registrar’s Office as a Development Officer, were you on the Board at that time?
SY: I certainly was on the Board at that time.
Did you take part as a representative of the League Board on any of the meetings to form new credit unions?
SY: I had actually been with Stan on some of his tours around the place when he did have that job. I did actually accompany him. There are times when I think I might have been on holidays or something like that and Stan was having a tour down the south coast or something or other and I actually accompanied him. The time I remember when Stan was appointed to that job, he rang me up and he rang all the other Directors up to see if we had any objection to him taking the job. Well at the time, possibly in our innocence, we probably thought there didn’t seem to be any problem with being seconded or whatever it is for a period. But there were all sort of ructions on the Registry staff and so on.
They objected to him being President while he was working for them, didn’t they?
SY: Yes they objected, probably rightly, and so on. But we didn’t see it as a complication. The argued it would probably affect their chances of promotion and so on and so on, could cause conflict of interest and various things. I can only speak in retrospect here, but I don’t think now it was a wise move.
When you went with Stan on trips, can you remember which credit unions were started during those trips?
SY: I remember particularly down the south coast. I think it was called the Illawarra County Council. It was certainly an electricity undertaking down that way.
That’s still going.
SY: That is still going. Still affiliated to the League?
Yes it is, well it is now, I don’t know whether it went left or right. I think at one time it was with the Southern League Association wasn’t it?
SY: I will have to dig into my memory a bit. I think now that you bring it up, I think they had a little bit of a revolt or something or other at some stage.
What was that about?
SY: I couldn’t say, actually, now.
Some people mentioned that Stan Arneil had some connection with that, that time when they left and formed their own Association.
SY: Stan may have, yes.
They weren’t on his side, I don’t believe. I don’t believe they were on his side particularly, I think it was some argument between him and them. I am not sure but I have heard this said. Do you know anything about it?
SY: No, I don’t. I couldn’t give you any details on that, unfortunately.
Later on a number of credit unions wanted to join the Southern Association, but they didn’t want to be in it so that is when the Central Association was started.
SY: Oh, this is one thing during my period, not the Central one.
That was in 1972.
SY: 1972, yes. No at the time I was on the League Board of course the one principal thing was the introduction of the League central for borrowing and lending. Of course the Act at the time prohibited any credit union from lending directly to another credit union. We had to repay to a couple of other credit unions monies that we had more or less on deposit with them. I don’t think they were large amounts, but a couple of credit unions had lent us some holding money, but we couldn’t do it. To get over that problem we had to introduce the League central.
That was Les Robinson’s work wasn’t it, as Manager, getting it started I mean?
SY: Well Les Robinson might have helped to develop it, but I think Clarrie Murphy was still the Manager when we first introduced the central. I am pretty sure of that. When was Les Robinson first employed, do you know?
I think it was 1967.
SY: Well definitely Clarrie Murphy was there. That’s right, because Les Robinson was appointed during the last year I was on the League Board. Clarrie was still the Manager up to that time.
Do you remember Les Robinson was appointed over Clarrie Murphy’s position?
SY: Well a lot of people just felt that the job was getting just a little bit too big for Clarrie. That was the general idea. They decided to call for applications for the job. I remember Les Robinson was one of the candidates, but I forget who the others were except for Ray Cooper from the Electricity Commission was also one of the candidates. Anyhow Les got the job ahead of Ray, although Ray I think polled reasonably well on the vote. But Les was considered the better choice anyway. I do think the inception of the central was a major step. My credit union had to borrow from it occasionally because we didn’t like to have waiting periods for loans if we could possibly help it. We didn’t like to tell people they had to wait. We would be in a position where we were well up with our lending commitments and suddenly for some reason everybody would decide to buy a new car or something like that. So we would have quite a backlog of loan applications and so on. So we did use that on occasions.
What about seasonally, Christmas for instance?
SY: Well I didn’t think that the seasonal one was that bad actually. The trouble with the seasonal one, Christmas especially, was not having a number of large loans but having a number of small loans. They would want two or three or four hundred or something or other, a bit of extra spending money around Christmas time. At times they used to go into some of these other things, I don’t know why, it wasn’t necessarily at Christmas time.
Do you remember there was also a co-operative depot wasn’t there? A supply depot connected with the League? For materials and promotional stuff particularly.
SY: Yes that’s right.
Did your credit union use that?
SY: We used to use it occasionally. We used to get various leaflets and various things.
What about the collection service?
SY: Collection of outstanding debts? I don’t think we used it, I don’t think we used it much in that time.
It wasn’t started until 1969 or 1970, I don’t think.
SY: Probably in my time when we did seem to have troubles we seemed to be able to make arrangements. I don’t think we would have utilised that to any large extent.
What about the beginning of the Stabilisation Fund, as it was in the beginning and ended up as the Reserve? Do you remember the controversy over how that was to be funded?
SY: Do I remember it, I certainly do. I just have some recollections. Somewhere about 1966 or 1967. I think that might have been inaugurated somewhere near the end of my period there. Can you recall?
Yes I think it was in 1967 it was inaugurated.
SY: Yes, that was what I thought.
Dermot Ryan reported coming back from the United States in 1967. But the argument as to how it was going to be funded, can you remember who argued both ways? Who argued for a capitation fee and who argued for the insurance rebate?
SY: No, I couldn’t tell you. I know there was probably more than one theory two, as I remember.
Was there an argument about whether it should be compulsory or not?
SY: There were certainly arguments on that factor. Some credit unions thought they were all right and so on. That was not a view that I shared, I didn’t share that view because we should all be covered, however it was funded, we should all be covered.
So you don’t remember which Directors argued in different ways?
SY: No, I couldn’t at this stage.
The Schools you attended, you said you were at the Newport Schools, who was the lecturer there the first School you attended?
SY: I think it was Carlos Matos.
Was Father Ganey there?
SY: Father Ganey was there, I am pretty sure, at the first School I was at.
What about Charles Compton?
SY: I certainly met him and probably at one of those Schools, but whether he was there or not, I think he was. I certainly met Charles Compton.
End Tape 1B: 2632 Words: 1 hour.
ANSWCU 17 : 26 APRIL 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH STAN YATES
You were saying then that you ran into Charles Compton in the Chevron there. What year would that be do you think?
SY: Well if you know what date Stan was dismissed from his post, it was the day before.
You think there was some connection with it?
SY: That is the reason why he was in Australia to sack Stan. He arrived here on this particular night.
Were you a delegate to any of the meetings, although I know you weren’t a Director of the League at that time, were you a delegate to any of the meetings during that period?
SY: The League meetings. I was a delegate of my credit union to the League.
Can you describe the meetings around the time when the insurance split happened then?
SY: I don’t know how you want me to describe them. They were rather heated on some sides and acrimonious might be a more suitable word. There was considerable acrimony.
What was your understanding of the issues?
SY: Well there seemed to be at the bottom of it certainly the amounts that were being charged, the actual charges for insurance, the manner in which they allocated rebates and also the troubles about a sort of conflict of interest between the CUNA Mutual and the CUNA and so on. A duplication of services and so on. They were doing things, even the running of Schools and so on, which CUNA itself should be doing, more in their line of duty that CUNA Mutual. That I think dated back to what had happened in America. Because when CUNA Mutual had been originally formed it was controlled by CUNA. There was some legal problems and so on that they couldn’t run an insurance, that they had to be under a separate control. So it was sort of having two separate credit union movements, sort of business, and there had been continual fighting in America between CUNA and CUNA Mutual. In other words CUNA was more-or-less continually unhappy that CUNA Mutual was sort of trespassing on their particular territories, you see. So there was almost a state of war between the two. I think that puts it pretty accurately.
Here it was also a matter of about how the development funds were used, wasn’t it?
SY: Yes well of course that was all involved in that particular business of having two controlling bodies, you see. CUNA thought that that was their particular territory and there would have been occasions when they could have had conflicts. CUNA might have thought that something was desirable.
It was the same thing here with the League, the League thought they should be in control.
SY: Yes, they should be in control of their affairs, sort of business and not have an outsider. It would have been good if it had been directly under the control of the controlling body, more or less.
In the other field where Schools were being run, did you go to many League Schools?
SY: I think it was fundamentally the ones that were run by CUNA Mutual that I have gone to.
For instance did you go to any at the School of Administration at Prince Henry?
SY: No, I don’t think I have been there.
What about the ones they had up and down the coast that AFCUL ran?
SY: No, I think the schools I attended were virtually CUNA Mutual Schools.
They used to have two, one after the other I believe. One was Leaders and Learners and the other was Advanced Leaders. Which one did you go to?
SY: I remember those, now that you come to mention them. I think the first one I went to, I don’t think it was called by that name, just everybody. But they did have later on Schools for, as you mentioned, Learners and so on and Leaders. I think I went to those.
I was told by somebody that the first Newport School was operated by the League and not by CUNA Mutual.
SY: Oh good heavens, you could be right. You could have been incorrectly informed actually. Just from my memory it may have been run by CUNA Mutual.
Well I think they were run jointly actually, but somebody told me the first one was run before CUNA Mutual got into the act at all.
SY: Do you know any names connected with it? Well I had better leave that open. I just can’t recall. That would have been some time ago now. Of course the CUNA Mutual influence has been pretty strong so naturally when you asked me the question first I …
When I was talking about meetings to which you might have been a delegate which were during the time of the insurance split, do you remember who was chairing the meetings? League meetings. You were no longer a Director at that time but they had half-yearly meetings though?
SY: Well the League meetings. I should say it was Ken Miller, the time of Ken Miller’s regime if you like to put it that way. Yes I thought Ken was the League Chairman at the time, President, and he would have chaired the meetings.
Can you remember any of these particular meetings, with Ken in the chair? At the time of the insurance split, the crucial meetings, can you describe any of them?
SY: The main ones that I attended were General Meetings, where the subjects were debated and I can’t recall now whether we had any particular meeting solely devoted to that problem.
Can you remember the one where some of the delegates walked out?
SY: Yes, I do seem to have some memory of the one where some delegates walked out.
Do you know where the meeting was, that one?
SY: I think it was probably a meeting at that university place, the University of New South Wales, as far as I can remember.
I understand that it was either at the Round House or Unisearch House, I am not sure which.
SY: It was something connected to the university and I think it was the Unisearch House.
That was the place that used to be a bowling alley, on the opposite side of the road anyway.
SY: I think that is where it was.
That appears to be the recollection. Can you describe that meeting at all?
SY: Good heavens, I couldn’t describe it.
They tell me you remember it to some extent, but I have been trying to get a good description and I haven’t been able to as yet.
SY: As I said I haven’t taken notes of it, but I remember it.
It was reported in the Quest, the paper edited by Tom Kelly, but not very extensively reported.
SY: No, and I don’t think I could any details than what you could have got from Quest anyway.
All right, I will leave that alone then and we will go on to something else.
SY: You better had. It may be one of those things that I will remember something in a week’s time.
There is another thing that you may or may not remember, can you remember working towards the Credit Union Act of 1969?
SY: I certainly do. That was after I left the League Board and Berry Calverley and I were chosen as a sort of little sub-committee to analyse all the drafts and all the rest of the draft copies of the Act. We came along with what we thought were some bright suggestions. Actually I don’t think we had any major cause for complaint about the Act. I think we thought this word should have been altered to that word, but I think the Credit Union Act in its new form was pretty satisfactory anyway.
One thing I haven’t asked you, but you were on the Supervisory Committee of the League in the early days. Were you involved with that being set up?
SY: As I said earlier in the day, I think that was one of my bright ideas. Discussing the credit unions not having supervisory committees of internal audit committees. I think our Executive always called in an internal audit committee and I thought that was a bright idea and we should practice what we preach and we should have a Supervisory Committee of our own. Without much discussion, or any discussion, they thought we’d better do something about it. So that was how that came about actually.
So you were on it straight away?
SY: I wasn’t on it. I couldn’t be on it because I was a Director of the League.
You were on it before you were a Director of the League.
SY: No.
After you were a Director of the League, sorry.
SY: After, yes. I believe it has been abolished now, anyway. Yes 1971, 1972.
So since you thought it up you decided you should be in it, did you?
SY: No I probably might have been looking for a job or something or other to make myself useful about the place, or try to make myself useful. Either useful or a bit of a nuisance about the place. Give me something to do.
Were you involved with a Chapter? Do you remember the City of Sydney Chapter?
SY: Yes.
For how long, where did it meet when you were a member?
SY: I couldn’t remember how often, but I think it was reasonably frequently. We’d get invitations.
Where did it meet?
SY: Somewhere in the city. Then of course I could be mixing it up with other Chapters because I know I have been over north Sydney way and to attend a Chapter meeting in French’s Forest, or somewhere, I just forget the geography over there. But I have been to meetings.
Do you remember who was the Secretary of the City of Sydney Chapter when you were in it?
SY: Ken Miller I think had something to do with it, but what office he actually held I am a bit hazy. Who was the actual officers.
The Institute of Credit Union Directors, were you in that at all?
SY: No.
Were you involved with AFCUL at all?
SY: As I said, I think you have a photograph of a document there and I think you might find my signature on it. That was thought up by somebody at one of the Schools at Newport.
Can you remember who?
SY: As a matter of fact I think it was probably a chappie who was on the Commonwealth Bank Credit Union.
Was it Maurie Ryan?
SY: No, it wasn’t Maurie Ryan. I think this is the chappie, Neville Lean. I think he was the chappie from the Commonwealth Bank who was at the School. I and two or three others thought it a bright idea.
Did you ever hear Merv Callaghan from Queensland mentioned in that context?
SY: I had met Merv at a School and I think it was most likely that one. Matter of fact I know enough about it to say I wouldn’t attribute it to anybody in particular’s bright idea. Most probably there were three or four people thinking along the same lines at the same time.
But it was Stan Arneil who wrote it up, wasn’t it?
SY: Well, Stan of course, naturally, would write it. Whether he actually initiated it, I think it was Neville Lean. Certainly I wouldn’t write Merv Callaghan out. I think several people were just thinking along the same lines at the same time.
Well they started off with Queensland and New South Wales didn’t they?
SY: Yes.
When you were an alternate delegate to AFCUL, was that the time when Dermot Ryan was still Chief Executive?
SY: I am pretty sure he was.
First Les Robinson was Secretary and he sort of ran it. Was it during that period, or was it Dermot Ryan?
SY: I think, I associate it mainly with Dermot.
Were you involved at all with any of the lobbying that went on during Dermot’s period to get the taxation exemption and such like?
SY: I certainly didn’t do any lobbying but I was quite interested in the case. They instituted proceedings in the High Court there was what they called a mutuality argument. We failed because I remember the day the judgement was delivered I was in company with I think Dermot was there, Les Robinson was probably there, I was there and several other people and we dashed along to the High Court to hear the judgement delivered. We were there about two or three minutes and Mr Justice Gibbs, I think it was, more-or-less used one sentence, ‘The application is refused and I give my reasons,’ and gave the reasons.
That was the South Australian case was it?
SY: Yes the case in South Australia.
It started with the Water Board in Sydney and then it moved down there didn’t it.
SY: I thought this was my strongest point, trying to follow legals, especially taxation cases. There was something wrong with the rules of the particular credit union and it had applied. Apparently they could have chosen a better example except the South Australian had got that far and they got involved with them.
Father Gallagher won his case with the Antigonish credit unions, can you remember why?
SY: No what was his particular case now?
His case was, I think it was Revesby and Lidcombe, or was it Punchbowl and Lidcombe Credit Unions versus the Taxation Commissioner. That was the one he won anyway.
SY: Yes he did win a case.
He won it in 1965. He actual fact won on the grounds that the Antigonish credit unions were mutual credit unions, therefore they were entitled to the tax exemption on the grounds of mutuality.
SY: No you are recalling something to me because it was a former Justice of the High Court who gave the ruling died quite recently at the age of ninety-seven, Sir Edward McTernan gave the ruling. Sir Edward McTernan died very recently, I got a shock to find he had died because I presumed he must have died years ago and it has escaped my notice until I read that he had died. I think Sir Edward was a bit sympathetic. He departed from his usual reputation. I haven’t read a copy of the judgement for years, and I did have a copy of it.
I read it a couple of months ago. Miss Rose Gallagher showed it to me.
SY: I do know about it to know that I have read the judgement, but it is so long ago now. But now that you mention it I recall that Sir Edward McTernan delivered the judgement.
Although I have seen the judgement and you and I know it is quite right it was Justice McTernan who delivered it, the finer points of me escape me and I was wondering if you could fill me in.
SY: What year was it delivered?
1955.
SY: I don’t know when I will get around to it but I will try one Saturday afternoon when I have got an opportunity I will go down the public library and get the judgements and read it myself.
Yes, I have seen it but I didn’t understand it.
SY: Unless I have got the thing in front of me, I can’t remember.
You weren’t involved with that on the legal side at all? You weren’t involved in the other case that was lost either?
SY: No. Not in that one because it was our legal advisers who worked that one out. We were just interested, following what the arguments were. I know a lot turned on the date of an alteration of a rule and what would happen in the case of the dissolution of a credit union, how it was dissolved and went into liquidation.
End Tape 2A: 2668 Words: 1 hour 10 minutes.
ANSWCU 17 : 26 APRIL 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH STAN YATES
You were just talking about a story you held about Dermot Ryan when he was interviewing Gorton.
SY: Yes when Dermot interviewed the Right Honourable John Gray Gorton came back home with the name plate John Gray Gorton, Prime Minister, he had souvenired it. That is I believe true.
Well I heard that he got a box of matches and that was it.
SY: Well I heard that he got the name plate with John Gray Gorton.
I didn’t hear that. Well that is another one for Dermot Ryan.
SY: Well that is the story I heard anyway, and he got away with it. I wouldn’t put it past Dermot by any means. I mean knowing Dermot as I used to know him it is the sort of thing he would do.
Have you got any other stories about any of the others, about Beresford Calverley or any of the others, or Dermot again, even.
SY: I remember Beresford Calverley and I mentioned early in the interview people lobbying for my particular vote for the Presidency. I was at work on a particular day and Berry was standing and he wanted to take the place of Don Harvey. The votes were pretty even and so on and he started ringing me to lobby for my vote. Well the whole place where I was working was in disorder. They had been moving the furniture and juggling things around. I had to pick up the phone off the floor and there was I on the floor trying to answer Berry’s call, it was most awkward. I think I got two or three calls from other people about the same situation and I was wishing them all the blazes by the time I finished, I wouldn’t have voted for anybody. Lobbying because they just thought that I was a crucial vote and if they got my vote they would be in.
How well did you know Tom Kelly?
SY: Well Tom and I have always been friends. As a matter of fact I was looking out for him yesterday and I saw him on the March. He is just one that I seem to see in the city every now and again, even now he is retired from the railways. I used to see Kevin Yates quite a bit.
How well did you know him?
SY: Well reasonably well because being namesakes and so on. Of course with the Yates Security people I used to see him, bump into him in the city reasonably often at one stage.
Where did you first meet him?
SY: I couldn’t remember. I remember meeting him at a meeting of the Credit Union League, but I had the feeling all along that I had met him somewhere previously. I don’t know why, but I probably had met him previously to that.
Did you hear him speak in the early days before the League was formed?
SY: No, I didn’t. So whether I had met Kevin before then, I just can’t remember. No I never heard him speak.
Now is there anything else I should ask you which I haven’t? There is one other question I can ask you about, the modern day credit union movement. Do you think that the credit union movement has stuck by its principles?
SY: Some people might think it has got too commercial but I think to a large extent it has just got problems of growth and sophistication and so on. I don’t think it has actually departed materially from its principles.
Well what do you think the challenge is for the future for credit unions?
SY: Don’t get me too involved here.
Have you got anything you can donate in the way of photographs which you have got spare of anything like that? In connection with the League?
SY: I might dig up and see if I can find any, but you have probably already got copies of anything I would have had.
Well in that case I will say thank you Mr Stanley Yates.
End Tape 2B: 691 Words: 15 minutes.