14 JUNE 1990: ANSWCU51: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM BLOOD
What is your full name, Mr Blood?
TB: Thomas Charles Blood.
Where were you born and when?
TB: Banksia, New South Wales on 23 May 1924.
Where did you grow up?
TB: The first ten years of my life I spent in the Sydney suburbs, in the poorer parts of Sydney. My father was a tram conductor. Work was short in those days and we just seemed to move from one suburb to another periodically. I wasn’t sure whether it was because they couldn’t pay the rent and we just moved out or what. For the first ten years of our lives we were in Sydney and then, magical moment for all of us, we moved to Manly.
Where did you go to school?
TB: Christian Brothers College, Manly, forgetting about the earlier schooling that was at Darlinghurst Catholic School. I completed my education which was only to Intermediate standard at the Christian Brothers College, Manly.
The time you were talking about when you were first growing up, that was during the Depression was it?
TB: Yes. Being born in 1924 naturally I was still fairly young when the Depression was on. But I was well aware of the fact that there was a Depression on.
What do you remember particularly?
TB: Well I can still remember that we used to eat bread and dripping at times, bread and sugar. The old soles of the shoes weren’t so good, if you had shoes to wear to school. That type of thing. Life wasn’t that easy.
Was your father’s work rationed at all or was he on full time?
TB: No I think he must have been, from my memory, work rationed. I don’t think he had full time work with the tramways and that was because of the situation with the Depression.
Yes, I understand. What do you remember of Manly, of your schooling?
TB: Very happy days with the Christian Brothers at Manly. They were hard. I copped my fair share of the strap, as they call it, but happy days. I suppose the age of fifteen came around too soon, although in retrospect I probably would have been wiser if I had stayed on and done the Leaving Certificate.
What subjects did you like or dislike at school?
TB: Well, I’ve got them right in front of me here, as a matter of fact. I didn’t mind Maths and English. Physics was a bit hard for me, but Chemistry I liked. Business Principles I liked, but I only got a ‘B’ in it in the Intermediate.
What about sport, did you like that?
TB: Well yes I have always been sport minded. My father was quite a good cricketer and we used to often play out in the street when we were kids and I think I learned my love then. When I was in my teens I was playing junior cricket in Manly and played for quite a number of years. We played in the ‘A’ Grade competition over there for a number of years and won quite a number of competitions because we had a pretty fine team.
So where did you go when you left school, what was your first job?
TB: Working in the dry-cleaners called Littles at Manly, cleaning out clothes.
Cleaning out clothes?
TB: That’s right. You used to have turn out the cuffs and the pockets and brush the dirt that was inside them before they were actually put in the machines to be washed and cleaned.
Is Littles still there? It isn’t I don’t think.
TB: No I don’t think so now.
Do you remember how much you got paid there?
TB: I don’t really know, but it was rather unusual. Turning pockets out of people’s clothes there was often sixpences and shillings and threepences that would come out. They used to have a little system, there were a number of us on this, we would put it all together and buy lottery tickets. Never did any good with it. That was only for about two months of course.
Then where?
TB: Went to the Royal North Shore Gas Company. Managed to get a job as a clerk at the North Shore Gas Company where I spent a couple of months. My mother was very keen for me to work for a government department and there was an advertisement for the Maritime Services Board for clerical staff and I was fortunate enough to get an interview. I was interviewed by the full Board of Commissioners of the Maritime Services Board, which they did in those days, which was a rather awe-inspiring sort of a situation for a boy of fifteen.
Do you remember who was on the Board then?
TB: No I really couldn’t tell you the names off the top of my head, it is a bit hard for me now.
Norrie wasn’t there at that time still was he?
TB: I know the name, but I don’t know that he was a member of the Board. I was appointed to the Board and started on 26 March 1940.
What was your job?
TB: I was on the stamps, I was the stamp boy. In other words I looked after the post book. Incredible.
It was a very onerous job was it?
TB: No it was a pretty easy job really. The hardest part was trying to balance the book at the end of the month. You know being war time and having vast changes occurring where a large percentage of the male staff of the Board were joining up, even though I think they could have been regarded in some ways as a reserved occupation, most of the men didn’t elect to do that. When they were of the age that they could serve their country they joined up. As a consequence of that the next two and a half years that I was at the Board, up to the age of eighteen whatever that time was, two years roughly because I turned sixteen in May 1940, I did a very large variety of positions, carried out a large number of functions in what they called the Wharfage Branch of the Maritime Services Board. In point of fact we were, even at that age, doing jobs which had been originally carried out by men that had been there for thirty-odd years because of the situation that a lot of them were gone, there were a few old hands still there but these jobs had to be done, somebody had to do them. The Board adopted the attitude that OK they were prepared to bring women into the office and there were a large number of young women working in the Board when I finally joined up myself in 1942.
What did work in the Wharfage Branch entail? What did you actually do?
TB: Well the Wharfage Branch was concerned with the collection of revenue in terms of the inward and outward wharfage charges on vessels carrying cargo. Tonnage rates on ships that were berthed in the port. Generally that type of thing, revenue collection.
By mail I take it. You didn’t have to actually go out and collect it did you?
TB: No, the people had to come into the office at the Maritime Services Board and pass entries for the goods that were either coming in or going out of the country. They were what they call entries, you know import or export slips. They had detailed information on them and they had to be checked and passed through a system. They were checked off the Manifests to make sure those goods were on the Manifest going out or coming in. Then they had to pay the applicable money which was involved in terms of the charges.
Was there any physical checking done?
TB: Yes it was all physical checking.
I mean you actually went out and checked that the goods were on the wharf?
TB: No. What happened on some occasions we used to have what we called storage charges, goods that were in store for over a period of time. People would go down and inspect those. There was an officer who was employed to go down and actually check certain goods that would be on the wharf for shipment, particularly timber and things like that. Check on it just to make sure they were really submitting what was correct on their entries.
So not long after that, in 1942, you joined up?
TB: Yes, I whacked my age up a month or so and went into the army for two months with some friends from Manly. But that came to an end very quickly because I had obtained my parents’ permission to apply to join the airforce, to try and get into air crew. I was in the army for two months and I won’t talk about that. It was rather interesting.
Where were you stationed?
TB: Eventually stationed at Iron Cove, which is a suburb out Drummoyne way somewhere I think now. We had 3.7 anti-aircraft guns which were supposed to lay a barrage over Sydney Harbour Bridge in the event of an attack by a foreign country. It was only a very brief period in the army, two months, then I was lucky enough to receive my transfer into the airforce. It was not that easy to obtain then, because the Japanese were making a nuisance of themselves up in New Guinea at that time.
Where did you go first in the airforce?
TB: Well I went to Bradfield Park, which is the initial training school for air crew. I suppose originally I had to go to Woolloomooloo, because you had to do a medical. But then once having been accepted you went to Bradfield Park and spent six weeks at what we called the initial training school where we were very heavily involved in study, route marches, physical education, you name it.
Square bashing as they used to call it.
TB: Yes, we had our share of that too, but it was good for us.
What rank did you get to? Did you get air crew?
TB: Yes. It was a bit of a lottery in those days. Everybody wanted to be a pilot, but obviously if you couldn’t be a pilot they had to have navigators, they had to have wireless air-gunners, they had to have air-gunners. In fact I came out as a wireless air-gunner. That meant I had to go to a wireless school for six months, which was at Maryborough in Queensland. I did my wireless course up there and completed after the normal period.
Did you know morse before you started?
TB: Never knew a thing about morse until I started. The very first place that you go into as far as the morse is concerned is what they call the six to ten word minuter hut. I don’t know if you know about morse, but that is rather interesting because that is the place where most of the ones who weren’t going to qualify got knocked out. They seemed to have a mental block, it just couldn’t gel with them, the morse code. It had a very strange influence on you, morse code though. I found after a period of time you would be walking around and you would see a sign on a wall or anywhere and it would come to you in morse code. Everything you looked at was morse code. But having got through the six to ten hut, it was a bit of a flutter really. It wasn’t all that difficult. The wireless part was difficult because we had some instructors that I feel had been in operations and they were browned off. Being browned off they were a bit tough on the trainees. They used to make your life a bit of a misery at times, but we survived that all right. The actual flying time at the wireless school was very short in point of fact. Most of it was all ground training. A very short amount of flying time with actual wireless operation.
Where did you get posted first?
TB: Well after that I had to go down to Evans Head to do an air-gunnery course. Being classified as a wireless air-gunner we had to complete the course, which meant we had to move down there. We went on to the old ferry battles and there were all words of doom and everything flung at us by the old hands that were there, who were just about to graduate, about the number that had been wiped out on the previous course. They were a bit dicey, the old things, they used to take two or three gunners up in the back and we just had these old gas-operated guns. Glycol fumes pouring back from the engine behind the pilot. It was pretty difficult trying to hit a drag that was being towed by another plane, or putting your bullets into a sandpit with a bit of a target set up down on the ground. I think most blokes came out below average as air-gunners.
How about you?
TB: Below average I think.
But you managed to get your rank?
TB: Yes. Well you either came out, at that stage, as a sergeant or there were a limited number of trainees who came out as pilot officers.
Right, what did you come out as?
TB: A sergeant.
Where did you go and in what planes?
TB: I was originally posted to Parkes in New South Wales to fly on the old Avro-Ansons. Parkes was a trainee navigators school. So we flew with the navigators and we maintained wireless communication with the ground as necessary. I had a short time there. Then I moved on to a place called Mount Gambia in South Australia, better known for the Blue Lake there. Spent several months there. Pretty hard to get flying time in there because most of the time they reckoned if you went to the barber’s shop down there and had a hair cut you had missed summer it rained that much. After that we went to Port Pirie, doing the same thing again. All these schools that I went to we were carrying trainee navigators. One of our trainee navigators at Port Pirie was obviously having problems either with his instructors or with his ability to handle the course. He left his Avro-Anson at a height of something like four or five thousand feet with a parachute. That was the only time we had a fatality during training. It was sad really. It was pretty hairy too, you know. These pilots that I was flying with they were mostly like me, they were only just out off their courses. We used to go out on what they used to call low-level flying exercises and they were supposed to fly at five hundred feet, no lower. We were flying along, dipping the wings to get under the boughs of the trees. So I suppose a man being stupid at eighteen didn’t realise the things that could have wiped him out.
Where did you get posted to for operational purposes?
TB: Well I wouldn’t actually call it operational purposes. After that I was posted to Number 34 Squadron, which was a squadron of DC 3s and Lockheed Lodestars, which operated between Parafield, Adelaide and Darwin. Actually it was a place called Fenton Field up there which housed the American Liberator bomber crews. What we were doing was flying a crew, when I say a crew we were flying close to thirty American air crew up to Darwin, staying over night and picking up another bunch of them and bringing them down. They used to come down for about a ten day what they call furlough, get them away from the battle scene for a while. I was doing that for twelve months. Then I got posted to Garbutt in Townsville, which was the airforce drome there. From there I was flying up to New Guinea and eventually on up to the Philippines. The War ended while I was flying up to the Philippines.
Did you see any action at all?
TB: Well I never fired a shot in anger, if that is what you mean.
Did anybody fire any shots at you in anger?
TB: No, not that I am aware of anyhow. At that time you must appreciate that it was getting late in the War. I was flying up there in 1945. Your greatest hazard I think was the fact that you were flying over New Guinea, that you were flying over inhospitable country. If you did have any problems with your aircraft well then there was a problem. Also the weather conditions were sometimes rather rugged. We got lost over Darwin once, when I was flying between Adelaide and Darwin. Due to the experience of the captain of the plane we got back to Katherine, south of Darwin, and managed to land there with a lot of very relieved American air crew.
Even in good weather you didn’t have any railway lines to follow up there did you?
TB: No railway lines, no.
When you got out of the airforce what did you do then?
TB: I took two or three weeks off and a friend of mine that I had actually joined the army with and an old school friend, Peter Bradstreet whose brother, John Bradstreet, was the Secretary of the Maritime Services Board, where I spent my life working, was also a good friend of mine, Peter talked me into hitch-hiking to Melbourne with him. So we just packed a suitcase and went outside of Sydney and hitch-hiked to Melbourne and back in a week. Picking up all forms of transport and turning ourselves into more respectable people at night, putting on more decent clothes. During the daytime we were fairly ordinary fellows.
So did you go back to the Maritime Services Board?
TB: Yes I did. I had an offer to stay in the airforce but I really felt that I had to pick up the threads of my life again. It was only putting off the day, so I decided to go back to work and I was back at work within two or three months of being discharged from the airforce.
Back in the same job were you?
TB: Well strange to say I went back and I did one of the fairly junior jobs, not the same job, but a fairly junior job with a young lady showing me and being rather superior about it too. I didn’t enjoy that too much. But however things changed fairly quickly.
When did you get married?
TB: I got married on 2 September 1950.
So it was after the War, not during?
TB: Oh yes, I was twenty-six when I got married. I was only twenty-one when I was discharged from the airforce.
So where did you first hear about credit unions?
TB: Stan Arneil.
Where exactly from Stan Arneil?
TB: Well we both lived over in the Manly area. Phil Worthington and I both went to the same school. Phil was a year or two older than me, but we worked at the Maritime Services Board. I just don’t know how it occurred, but one day we were talking with Stan and Stan started talking to us and telling us about these credit unions and how they operated and everything else. That is how it started as far as my involvement, and Phil’s, with credit unions.
Where did you meet Stan Arneil?
TB: In Manly. Stan was in the Manly area. I couldn’t tell you precisely where. Initially he lived at Manly Vale. I think it was Manly Vale that he came from and that is where I met him because I also lived at what they called North Manly, which was just adjacent to Manly Vale.
Were you involved in the starting of the Maritime Services Board Credit Union?
TB: Yes. Phil Worthington and myself were responsible for the formation of the MSB Credit Union. Incidentally it is the MSB Credit Union, it has never been the Maritime Services Board Credit Union.
I stand corrected.
TB: That’s all right. I didn’t mean to be pedantic.
So can you remember roughly when the MSB Credit Union was formed? Do you remember the foundation meeting?
TB: Well the foundation meeting had to be sometime in 1958 I am pretty certain. My memory is not as good as it should be but I felt that we were actually formally founded and on the ground in December 1958.
Did you have Stan Arneil to the inaugural meeting?
TB: I don’t know whether we did. I really couldn’t say that we did in fact have Stan Arneil to the inaugural meeting. When I say that, it is possible that I think we may have had Keith Young. Keith was sort of at that time acting in a type of Secretarial role, I suppose you could call it. I don’t know if the League was actually formed at that time. If it was already formed he was in a Secretarial capacity and of course we had been directed in that direction anyhow by Stan. I think that is probably where he had got his information. Keith was very, very helpful to us and he came down to the Maritime Services Board on a number of occasions and he would have been there at the initial meetings and things that were held. He helped us greatly. Of course we still had to convince the Commissioners of the Maritime Services Board that this was something worthwhile for the staff to have and something that should be happening in the Maritime Services Board. So it meant that Phil Worthington and myself had to approach the then President of the Board, Mr Lou Smith, and put the proposition to him. Fortunately he was a pretty down to earth guy. He was an ex-army man and had been in both World Wars, had the MC, and also was a tyke which was helpful.
You mean a Catholic?
TB: Yes. Let’s face it he did grill us, but we were able to satisfy him that this was something that was worthwhile. It would be good for the staff and good probably for staff morale and therefore the Board wouldn’t suffer by it happening and the staff would have some improvements in their living standards perhaps.
Did he grant pay-roll deductions straight away?
TB: No. That was a long hard battle. They didn’t have them for a long time. One of the reasons for that was because the Treasurer and Accountant, who was in charge of the Accounts Branch, they were not convinced that these types of organisations were necessarily going to be sound, or whatever you like to call it. It was very difficult to get pay-roll deductions. In point of fact it took us several years to get them. We had to make representations both through the League and through the Minister I think before finally the Board agreed to grant them.
Did they charge you for deducting?
TB: No, they did not. No I must admit they were very kind to us and didn’t charge.
Who was the Inaugural Chairman, do you remember?
TB: Yes, Phil Worthington was the Inaugural Chairman and a gentleman called Leo Simpson was the first Vice-Chairman.
How was that decided, who was going to be Chairman?
TB: Well of the Directors that were elected, there were seven Directors elected initially, then they chose their Chairman and their Vice-Chairman.
Did you have a Supervisory Committee as well?
TB: Oh yes we had a Supervisory Committee right from the start. Don’t ask me who they were now.
Can you remember where the credit union operated in the first instance, and how?
TB: Yes. On the fourth floor of the Maritime Services Board at that time we had something like what you might call an auditorium. You know they would sometime have annual functions and things like that. It was like an open hall and there was a servery up there where they could serve food and things from. That servery was our first office. That was where we were allowed, in the lunch hour, have our members come up and bring their credit union passbooks and carry out what they had to do. In other words either pay off a loan, if they had a loan, or if they were just investing. Actually the loans were a bit slow at the start because we didn’t have any money until we got a few bob in.
Did you have a membership drive straight away?
TB: Well I think at our inaugural meeting there would have been something like twenty-five people. It started slowly because people were, I think, not totally convinced about the thing. I think anybody with money, if they want to invest it want to invest it and get a quid out of it. In those days, even though interest rates were low generally all round, even with other organisations, it wasn’t easy to attract money into the credit union. There was a lot of hard work necessary. We had to really go out and sell the credit union. History will show now that hard work paid off because gradually we picked up members as it went along. As we did that, well there was more confidence, I think, generally all round. Of course the important thing was that, give or take say the first one, two or three years, we never ever had a bad debt and we never looked like having one. I think our lending policies were sound, without being restrictive. I think it was just a question that the membership grew and there was more confidence. Then the doubters, the ones that said it couldn’t work originally, they then started to come and put some money in it.
When you started, well before you started, did you have a need of credit? Did you get credit anywhere else, or try to?
TB: No, we didn’t.
You personally?
TB: Oh me personally? I was always poor. I had on one occasion to go to a bank for a loan, it was only three hundred pounds in those days I think. I was so humiliated by the type of questioning that I was put through on the form for that loan. They would only give me a personal loan, no other type of loan. I didn’t have a bank account with them incidentally.
End Tape 1A: 4458 Words: 1 hour 40 minutes.
14 JUNE 1990: ANSWCU51: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM BLOOD
How did you first come to be on the Board of the League, as it was in those days, the Credit Union League?
TB: I think basically because of Keith Young, the Secretary, and several other of those people. We were invited to go along to their meetings, Phil Worthington and myself, from the Maritime Services Board. We attended them. I think in those early days, I may be wrong I am not sure whether the Chapters were already operating, it might have been slightly after that. But if they were well then we went to those Chapter meetings representing our own credit union and learning more about it. We were all putting our ideas together, you might say, and trying to improve the situation. I think that we just went along to the meetings and then when they had their Annual General Meeting it was just something that happened. I mean there weren’t a lot of people so I don’t think there was any necessary glory in finding yourself suddenly a Director of the League Board at that time. There wasn’t a large number of people and it was unusual for two people from the one place to be appointed on to the Board.
You were appointed at the same time?
TB: Oh no. I think Phil, as you said, was probably appointed the year before I was.
Yes, I think so. He went off on the same year that you came on didn’t he?
TB: I don’t know that was the case was it? Did he go off?
All I have got here is 1959/1960 for him. I didn’t take this from the Minutes, I took it from the Annual Report.
TB: It could have been the case that you could only have one representative. But Phil might have felt that he didn’t want to continue on at that time. He was Chairman of our own credit union and obviously if you are Chairman you really are the big number one man, you needed to be in those days.
He was Treasurer before he was a Director of the League.
TB: Yes he was too. You are right. He did do the Treasury job on the League Board. That’s right. You have brought my memory back.
Well from the Annual Reports. All I did was look up the Annual Reports.
TB: That’s right. Then he was appointed a Director. I am not too sure whether they didn’t go hand in glove in point of fact. If being a Treasurer he wasn’t a Director? No? Not at that time? All right.
I think if you were Treasurer or Secretary you couldn’t be a Director.
TB: Well apparently then I just followed Phil the following year. I just stayed on the Board for that period of time that I was there.
Do you remember the other Directors? Do you remember particularly for instance Kevin Yates?
TB: Oh yes Kevin Yates was an absolute gentleman. Of course I was well aware that Kevin Yates was the real, what I would regard as the real founder of the credit union movement in Australia with Universal Credit Union.
Had you been a member of the Universal?
TB: No. I didn’t even know about it. I naturally found these things out afterwards by coming into contact with Kevin and other people. Meeting him personally was a real pleasure, he was a gentleman, no question or doubt about it.
Of the other people?
TB: You give me some of the names and I will agree with you.
Who was the President when you were first on the Board?
TB: Oh, you are being too tough now, I don’t remember. Berry Calverley?
Correct.
TB: All right.
What do you remember of Berry?
TB: Berry Calverley it was. He was in the Department of Motor Transport. Yes Berry was very, very imbued with the spirit of the whole thing, I think. Is Berry still alive?
No he died a few years ago.
TB: Well, this is off the record.
It isn’t off the record because the tape is going.
TB: Well he was inclined to be a little bit a letter of the law man in some ways. But he was heart and soul into it, do you know what I mean. He was well on to his rules and technicalities and things like that.
Then after that Stan Arneil.
TB: Yes. Well Stan Arneil is a very, very strong personality. Naturally a man with his background and his history, you would expect that would be the case. Anybody who spent that time in Changi as well as the terrible ordeal he had during the War. You must have heard about him. I think he was a man of steel really.
What was he like as a Chairman by comparison?
TB: Very strong. Very strong leader. You knew that he was the Chairman, you know. Might I say that in my view, in my experience with the Credit Union League Board, it seems to me that no matter what the organisation is politicking always comes in. To me it was always sad that politicking had to be a part of credit unions, but it is a fact of life. There was plenty of politicking that went on about the Credit Union League Board. Who was going to be on the Board and who wasn’t going to be on the Board. Who was going to be on certain Committees and who wasn’t. I think, and I have got to be honest about this, these little meetings in pubs and places where I am sure decisions were taken before they ever arrived at the League Board meetings. Decisions to try and have some things done in a certain way.
Do you remember the occasion of Stan Arneil’s appointment as Development Officer at the Registry, the Registrar of Co-operatives, and the argument there was about him retaining the Presidency?
TB: Well yes and no. I do remember it.
It was about the time that you actually resigned from the Board.
TB: Yes.
It has already been described to me, but I just wondered whether you remembered it?
TB: Yes. I remember the time. Obviously there was a problem, I think probably a conflict of interest, that was probably what was felt by people.
Don Harvey stood against him and won of course.
TB: Well Don again was, in my view, a gentleman.
But he disagreed with Stan on that and Stan took it rather personally I understand.
TB: Yes but there were other people who disagreed with Stan too and Stan would take that personally also. He was a hard-liner, that is all there was to it.
Do you remember how the numbers went? Who lined up on which side?
TB: No, I wouldn’t be able to say that. All I know is that I think I was somewhat naive in those days, even though I should have been old enough to be a little bit more than naive. When you are in a new organisation you are not really always well aware of what is going on behind the scenes. I have got to be honest and say to you that I thought that the credit union movement was such a wonderful movement that I just sort of thought that nobody could be doing the wrong thing in it. As far as the people that were officially involved with running them and being prepared to give up hours and hours of their time, nights and days and weekends, and doing completely voluntary work. To me they were guys to be admired and I just didn’t see this sort of other side of the coin where there could have been politicking going on and like stabbing in the back if you like and various other things. Unfortunately I think that is a fact of life.
Oh no I am not suggesting there was any back stabbing going on in this particular instance. In actual fact people had different opinions.
TB: Yes sure. But what I am saying to you is that was my experience at one stage on the League Board and I think that was borne out by events that occurred later on.
You mean the insurance split?
TB: Yes. I don’t think it was only the insurance split really. We lost credit unions, you wouldn’t have to be an historian to know that, because people disagreed with the League dues. If the League dues were a certain rate they said, ‘No that is too much for us. We have got so many members and you have only got that small number of members. It is not costing you that much, but it is costing us this much. We are paying for most of the costs of running the League.’ You know terribly short-sighted really when you think about it, but that was the attitude. I mean I can remember Tom Ryan, who was a wonderful credit union man, representing the Commonwealth Bank. His problem was that his Board, they could see that large sum that they were putting into the League Board in dues so what happened they pulled out eventually. They came out of the League. To me it was sad in a way, but that is human nature again I suppose.
Has the MSB Credit Union always been in the League?
TB: Ever since we joined. As far as I am aware, even though I have been absent from it for some time now, I don’t think there has ever been any suggestion that we should be any other way. Whilst ever I was involved with the MSB Credit Union and while I was involved in it I was always in a position of either being a Director of Chairman, or Vice-Chairman. Later when I went to Port Kembla and couldn’t carry on in those positions, then I was just simply a member and had no influence really on decisions in that regard. But whilst I was involved in, if you like, executive positions there was no way in the world that I would ever have agreed, personally, to a break with the League. I felt the League were carrying out a necessary and a worthwhile function. They were recognised by the government, they were accepted by the government. They had been accepted by the membership of the League generally of the various credit unions. The fact that other organisations were operating independent of them was any real reason why one should say that was a good enough argument for them to drop out. They gave us good services. They updated their services. They grew. They didn’t stay stationary. You can’t stay static.
Do you remember the first Manager being appointed?
TB: Yes Clarrie Murphy.
Where you on that selection panel?
TB: Yes I think I might have been. I think I might have been on the League Board at the time when that happened.
Do you remember Les Robinson?
TB: That was much later.
Yes, but didn’t he apply at the first time?
TB: No I don’t think he was around at that time. If he was around I wasn’t aware of him. He seemed to come on to the scene much later to me.
Keith Young, did he apply?
TB: No I don’t think so. I am not sure whether anybody else besides Clarrie applied.
Oh there was quite a lot I think.
TB: Were there. Did Dermot apply?
I think he might have.
TB: Yes I think he did. Did I?
I don’t know whether you did or not.
TB: Well I hope I didn’t.
I don’t think you did.
TB: I don’t think I did, because I don’t think I thought I would have been able to do the job.
No, I don’t think you did. I think Dermot did though.
TB: Well to be quite frank with you, Clarrie had been in the game for a long time. He was a very willing worker. I am not saying that Clarrie was necessarily going to be the best Manager that you could ever get, but at that time I think what you needed was someone that was going to run the show and run it on the lines that it was required to be run on. The need for real great skills and expertise when you are starting to get very big, well that’s probably when they started changing their ideas about who should be the Manager.
Can you remember where the Board meetings were held when you first became a Director of the League?
TB: Yes we used to go up to CSR’s offices.
That was where Keith Young was Secretary.
TB: That’s right. That is where we used to go initially, I think. Then I am sure we went up to Universal Credit Union for meetings.
I believe there was a time when they were actually at the Canadian Club.
TB: Yes I can remember that name, the Canadian Club, it rings a bell. Just not quite sure where it is now.
Nor am I, but I believe it was somewhere in Elizabeth Street. I understand the reason for that was because Kevin Yates’ wife was a Canadian.
TB: She was, yes. That is correct. But I don’t really know the reason.
Do you remember the offices at Universal?
TB: Yes I do. The offices are downstairs and also there was a meeting place upstairs, as a point of fact. It was a two-storey building from my memory.
It is still there. As a matter of fact it is to let again at the present moment. Tom Kelly was looking at it.
TB: Oh well I haven’t got any money to invest.
I don’t think we want to rent it either. After all we get it free of rent down at the Railway Institute. The only thing is of course they have got no security down there. But you wouldn’t have if you moved into some of the rented places. Do you remember during Berry Calverley’s Presidency that occasionally the meetings were held elsewhere? I know he was President twice, so I don’t know whether it was during your time or not. Was it ever held down at the Irish National Association Club, what it now the Gaelic Club?
TB: I don’t remember going there.
Maybe it was in his second Presidency. He did hold them down there for a while, but I don’t know why. It could possibly something to do with renovations.
TB: I would imagine it would have been because they were available and maybe the premises they normally used weren’t available.
Do you remember what the routine was on the evenings that you had the League Board meetings?
TB: Well as I said I think the ones that I am thinking of, where we went to Universal, we used to go up town to Central, then walk up the street and walk into the pub and have a couple of beers and probably a hamburger or something and then go up and have our meeting. That is what usually happened.
What time did it start?
TB: Oh well I am guessing but I would say it would probably be between six and seven o’clock at night. Most people in those days were working at least until five o’clock in the afternoon so it may have been even later in some cases. I am imagining that it would happen about six-thirty, seven o’clock.
What time did the meetings get finished?
TB: Well it all depended upon what was on the agenda. I mean some nights it might be longer than others. I think you would normally spend at least a couple of hours there.
Do you remember any discussions during the period when you were a Director of the League about the formation of AFCUL?
TB: Well I do remember about the foundation of AFCUL. I just can’t recollect whether or not when that actually occurred. The discussions on AFCUL occurred while I was on the League Board. My memory is not that good.
Well nobody else has mentioned it. Were you down at the Newport Schools?
TB: Yes I was. I went to a couple of the Newport Schools. As a matter of fact my wife came. Well see they made it a weekend at the motel there and my wife went down with me on one particular occasion and we had rather a good night one night after all the business activity was over. The Polish Credit Union was represented at that particular meeting and we had a pretty good bit of a time. One of these Poles ended up pouring champagne into one of my wife’s shoes so she could drink it out of it. You ask my wife before you leave here, she will verify that for you.
Did you hear about Room 19?
TB: Well you tell me about it. I may have heard about it and forgotten about it because my memory is really not the best.
Oh if you knew about it, you would remember it, I am sure.
TB: Well I did have this bit of a turn, as I mentioned to you, in 1981. It has affected my memory and it is not as good as it could be.
Well Room 19 was the Sydney City Council’s room, a hospitality room.
TB: Oh the hospitality room. Yes, I remember that.
Were you at Newport the time that, well twice actually, Father Ganey was there?
TB: Yes I remember Father Ganey.
Did you meet him at Newport at all?
TB: Yes I think I met Father Ganey. He was a fine man.
When you went overseas did you go via Fiji?
TB: I did go via Fiji but only to land and refuel. When I came back, on the way back, I stayed in Fiji for a week.
Did you visit Father Ganey there?
TB: Well I don’t think Father Ganey was around at that time. I think he might have been moving around in Fiji or he may have been somewhere else. I stayed on the invitation of the Fijian Credit Union League. At Bergengren House there. That was a place they used to have little Schools and things like that, located on a bit of a hill. That was where I was accommodated while I stayed there in Suva. I used to go up each night to sleep. During the daytime I was looked after. They just took me around and I met people. I was taken right down into the vast areas. I was taken down to Rewa River through undergrowth and scrub, you wouldn’t even know that anything existed beyond that. Right down into these areas and there were these Fijian villages. I was entertained at these kava ceremonies and it was really wonderful. It was a wonderful experience. You hear about tourists going there and having this kava and everything else, but this was the real thing. The native women cooked special little delicacies and things like that. I had to get up and talk of course and there was a representative. I remember he was called Penny and he was in one of the films, the early credit union films, which was made about Fiji. Penny was in it. He was a very tall, fine, strapping Fijian and he went with me down to all these villages that I went to. It was a wonderful experience it really was. I lived with the Fijians for about a week and it was marvellous.
Was Joane Naisara around at that time?
TB: Oh Joane Naisara, most definitely yes. Joane was very much involved in the credit union movement at that time. Then of course later on he became a member of the actual Parliament over there, didn’t he?
Yes. When you went to the States, I should have asked you in the first instance how, can you remember who suggested you should go that year as the delegate, or as a representative?
TB: Well I was nominated by a particular person and seconded by another person.
Who?
TB: Need I tell you that, is it necessary?
No you don’t have to tell me no.
TB: I think I was set up actually. There were a couple of nominees actually, Mick Nelms was one of the other nominees. I think it was just between Mick and myself, I am not sure, I may be wrong. Anyhow I was elected to go. I don’t really know that I was necessarily the right bloke to go, but again I think politics might have played a part in that. I feel this after certain events that happened after I came back. Stan was the President at that time, wasn’t he?
Yes he was.
TB: Yes, well you can put two and two together if you like.
By the way, Mick Nelms was it.
TB: Yes Mick Nelms. He was on the Board for a while then he just seemed to drop right out of the picture.
Did you get on well with him?
TB: Very well. He was a very likeable fellow.
Well what was political about his possibility?
TB: Well I think it was more about my possibility than his. When I said Stan Arneil, I think I had the top man going for me. Knowing politics I think my chances were probably stronger than his.
When you went to the United States did you enjoy the trip or did you find it very hard? You were one of the ones who went on their own weren’t you?
TB: Yes. I think there are two answers to that. I did enjoy the trip but I did find it very hard. Apart from my own experiences during the War, I had never really travelled to any extent. I never equated flying in the airforce during the War to other countries as being travel. You know you are totally under different circumstances. I flew into Los Angeles and went from Los Angeles straight across to Atlanta and then down through Alabama, down to Mobile and then on up to Dallas and Texas. From Dallas up to Chicago then across up to Madison, of course, for the Annual General Meeting. When that was over they were kind enough to let me go for a further week along up to Calvary and Bamf and across over to Vancouver. I stayed there for about four or five days under the auspices of the Vancouver Credit Union League and met a number of people there and went around to various things. It was a learning experience for me, going to these various credit unions seeing them in operation. Going to quite a number of these conventions, seeing how they operated. Finding out, having my eyes opened about the real extent of what politicking was all about in credit unions. In America it was down to a fine art.
Was the insurance split going on over there at that time?
TB: Well I think there was no insurance split in America itself.
Well they were trying to bring CUNA Mutual to heel, so to speak.
TB: Well yes, I agree with you on that.
Was that going on during the time you were there or was it afterwards?
TB: Well I think it could well have been, there were problems. I know that when I was at Madison CUNA Mutual did play quite a deal of attention to me. I was invited over there and I was shown over things and I was talked to quite a bit by Carlos Matos, who was the representative who came out to Australia several times and I think tried to sell the idea to the Australians. Again a thorough gentleman and let’s face it he was a professional and he was doing what he considered to be right. But I must admit that even though I went there and experienced all this, my own feelings about it were that it seemed to me what they were offering us, eventually in the final analysis, wasn’t something that was suitable to our situation. They didn’t want to give us the same deal as they were giving their own members in America and to me that was wrong and I would never have agreed. Being on the Board, I was also opposed to CUNA Mutual coming out to Australia under the terms that they wanted. Of course obviously Stan Arneil, on the other hand, had different views.
Well Dermot Ryan and Ken Miller later on tried to encourage CUNA Mutual to come into Australia, and successfully of course too. It wasn’t until they got here that they found it wasn’t as good as they thought.
TB: That’s true. We did want them to come over to Australia, I agree with you on that. What I am saying is they had representatives out here. Carlos Matos had come out to Australia before I went to America.
Well he was here in 1965, because we have got the evidence of that.
TB: He was here before 1965 wasn’t he?
I don’t know. He may have been here in 1964 as well.
TB: I think he was here before 1964. I think he was here before I went away. I feel sure that he was here.
Incidentally, the first year that you were at a Newport School was that the year you went away or was it the next year?
TB: I really couldn’t answer that question because I don’t remember when the Newport School was on, what year it was on. No. It was on that year I think because when I came back from my trip, I think the School was on in October most likely because it was round about Credit Union Day time usually, I was one of the speakers at the School. I spoke about not my experiences in America as the National Director, but more on the question of community credit unions. I tried to talk about those because that was something that was topical at the time. It was something that there weren’t very many community credit unions off the ground out here to any extent and they were quite a flourishing thing over in America and Canada.
So in actual fact you went to the first School most likely, the one that was run by the League independent of CUNA Mutual.
TB: Yes I did. I went to a couple of Schools at Newport.
Well the following year is where they are supposed to have discussed the possibility of forming AFCUL, 1965.
TB: Yes well I could have been there. As I say my memory is not good. If that is the case, I would say to you that I would have been in favour of AFCUL because I saw that as being just another broadening of the whole total situation for the credit union movement, something that probably was good for it.
Did you know Merv Callaghan, Queensland?
TB: Well the name rings a bell and I knew the gentleman who came down from Queensland.
Well there was another one, Jack Ross of course.
TB: Yes I have heard of Jack Ross.
The reason why I think you would have remembered if there had been these discussions.
End Tape 1B: 4576 Words: 1 hour 40 minutes.
14 JUNE 1990: ANSWCU52: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM BLOOD
You found a few old notes. Are they from the MSB Board meetings or the League?
TB: No this is the Directors of the Credit Union League. It is just a little black notebook I found amongst some things. There are only a few pages, but it dates from 22 November 1961. We had a meeting and at that particular meeting I have got a note here, ‘Six nominations for National Director. The names are: S Arneil, T Ryan, A Marsh, B Calverley, R Davis, T Kelly.’ After that I have written, ‘Vote to be recorded at meeting on 6 December. If unable to attend forward postal vote.’
In actual fact, the actual Directors were Kevin Yates in 1959, Harold Hoyle in 1960, 1961 is Dom Arrivelo. Is that 1961?
TB: Yes, but this was at the end of 1961 so it would have been for the National Director to go in the following year I think.
Well do you know who that was? Stan Arneil?
TB: Well that is who got the job. He was number one on the list anyhow, on my list there. I think that is just how the names came over at the time, of course. So he went that year.
Right. Is there anything else of interest in that notebook?
TB: Well I just did mention to you that little earlier piece about pay-roll deductions. There was a note that the Chief Accountant of Treasury was written to advising that the credit union desired same and we asked for a conference with the Treasury. ‘A representative from the credit union doing most varied business to meet the Chief Accountant of the Treasury.’ Somebody presented, one of the Directors presented reports from the Dues Committee. Dues were a problem in those days. What were we going to charge the member credit unions, dues, per member. It was always a very heart-burning problem for the Board of Directors. It was also I think one of the most hotly contested things when the Annual General Meeting came up. Let’s see if we can find anything else.
Insurance there?
TB: Well we were interested in trying to get into insurance ourselves, naturally, in the early days. We took advice about trying to form our own insurance company. There was a lot of correspondence between us and I think Canberra in that regard. We did have an Insurance Committee, in point of fact, which investigated this matter for quite a long time. In point of fact, even as late as 1964 I think that was still going on. I was somewhat disappointed, if not disillusioned, when I found that we ended up scrapping the whole idea and there was an insurance taken out with a company. I always sort of had the feeling that we could break through on that, but it was pretty difficult and maybe it was for the best that it didn’t happen in the long run. I have got some notes here dated November 1961 about the Russian Credit Union, Moorebank Credit Union, Lithgow Credit Union, all interested in joining the League. There were sixty credit unions in Victoria at that time, in 1961. A note to the effect that there was League to be formed in Queensland early in the new year, being 1962 I presume. An invitation from Western Australia to start a League there. ‘Somebody would be required to go to WA in 1962 to address the interested credit unions over there.’ Also a note about a Credit Union Advisory Committee to be set up by the Minister of Co-operatives. But of course I think you have probably got all this information already.
What date was that?
TB: That was in November 1961 I wrote these Minutes.
So that was the Advisory Committee then?
TB: Well we had apparently already been in touch with the Minister for Co-operative Societies and we had had advice that there was going to be an Advisory Committee set up and that of course there was going to be strong representation from the Credit Union League.
Were you on that Advisory Committee?
TB: No I was not on that Advisory Committee. Stan Arneil was. ‘A Committee of four to be formed. S Arneil, representative of Employees Credit Union, Dom Arrivelo, Parish and Community Credit Unions.’ I don’t know who was selected to be the representative of Building Society Co-operative Credit Unions and the other one was Berry Calverley from the League Board. They were the four people that were named apparently, with a question mark about who was the fourth. Berry Calverley in fact was elected as the League representative subject to confirmation of the League Board. It was confirmed by the League Board, subject to receipt of letter from the Minister. You want more on this do you. We had Committees in those days. This is December 1961. There was an Organisation and Promotion Committee, a Publicity and Public Relations Committee, an Insurance Committee, a League Dues Committee. Even Bookkeeping because they were looking for uniformity in the bookkeeping of credit unions. Stan Arneil, Alex Marsh and Tom Rowland were members of that particular Committee. I have got the names of the other members if you want me to give them to you.
I notice you have got the Organisation and Promotion Committee there as Harold Hoyle and Dom Arrivelo on that as well as yourself and Bob Davis. He never mentioned that.
TB: That’s right. He didn’t mention it to you. Well you are welcome to take this book with you and use it if you would like to have it.
Well yes it would be good to have that if you don’t want it. I am sure that would be very good to have in the Historical Co-operative.
TB: Right. In December 1961 the MUIOOF withdrew from League membership. Credit unions started, or about to start, we have got the Commonwealth Works Department, Education Department, Lands Department, Public Service Board. Credit unions in stage of formation, Hospitals Commission, Overseas Telecom, New South Wales University.
The ones that are particularly interesting and I would like to question you a bit about are these various Committees. They were all Committees of the League Board?
TB: Yes.
Where did the Committees meet, and when?
TB: Well they would have met either at the normal place where the Board met or at some mutually agreed place that the Committee decided to meet at.
But they didn’t meet at Board meeting times? They met at other times did they?
TB: No not when the Board meeting was actually on. The only thing that would happen as far as these Committees, once they had been formed, would have been a question of them reporting to the Board.
Right. Well it you are going to let me have the notebook, then there is not much point on reading it on to the tape.
TB: No. Unfortunately there is not a lot here because it only goes to a certain stage. But you are quite welcome to have it. If you want to get in touch with me at any time because you can’t understand it, I will be happy to talk to you about it. It goes forward to looks like round about August 1962, or something like that. So it is not a very long period really.
But it will probably be of some assistance.
TB: You are welcome to it.
Well I will put that down with the photographs at the Historical Co-operative, the Credit Union Historical Co-operative. Tom Kelly, as you know, is current President. When I come back from these trips I hand all the stuff to him.
TB: You must be getting a vast amount of stuff.
Oh some people have got lots. I think the record was Malcolm Samuels, he had a terrific amount of stuff.
TB: Oh yes Malcolm, I could believe that.
I understand that Ken Miller has got a garage full of it, but I don’t think we are going to get all that. I don’t think we would know what to do with it.
TB: No. That is one of the things that I really do regret though. I did have a terrific amount of stuff myself and as I think I mentioned to you we had a fire here quite a number of years ago and there was a lot of stuff destroyed. I think I lost some of the records then. I think probably I must have had some sort of mental aberration on one occasion and I decided that some of the stuff was useless so I just threw it out. It never ever came into my mind that it was history, that it might have been useful to somebody.
Jack Coyne has thrown an incredible amount out and there were several other people. On one occasion there was not only some records thrown out by somebody else but some cartoons by a famous cartoonist were thrown out because they had got a couple of holes in them.
TB: Quite a shame really.
They were worth money, apart from anything else. They were the originals, not just copies of things. Anyway, that is neither here nor there. Let’s go on. We didn’t finish your trip to America. We got slightly diverted. Nonetheless, when you went to America where was the Annual Meeting and did you have vote?
TB: Yes I had a vote. The meeting was at Madison, Wisconsin. We were there for a number of days. I can assure you there was an awful lot of lobbying went on. As I told you before, this was where I found out about politics in the credit union movement. You know there were meetings held in different little rooms at the actual Convention Centre. Let’s face it, I suppose the groups from all these various other countries, other than America or Canada, got together because they might have had a bit of an axe to wield about certain aspects of a situation. There was quite a lot of discussion went on but in general it was a bit of an eye-opener to me, because I hadn’t been exposed to that situation before. It was quite different to a little gathering of seven Directors over in Sydney, up in a small office.
You can’t remember what the issues were, the subject of the lobbying, at that time?
TB: Well you know some of them were issues about who you were going to vote for for President, for instance. I don’t think they were really earth-shattering types of things. well to me they weren’t at that time. They may have been to some other people. It was just it was my first experience of I suppose how strong politicking went on. It almost seemed to be, particularly where you were going to vote on a particular matter which may have been slightly controversial, I suppose it was like how they go on over there with their Presidential elections. They would have a very strong lobby for one particular thing as opposed to another and it just depended on how your sympathies lay as to who grabbed you and tried to convince you that this was the right way to go rather than the other way. I tried not to get involved in that, only to the extent that I was only over there as an observer and a member representing the Australian credit union movement. I had certain tasks to carry out and I was just trying to do that and I didn’t want to get involved in politics.
Had you been given any brief as to how you were to vote on different issues? Any points you were to make or bring up?
TB: No I don’t remember any particular briefing. My memory is a bit vague on this, but I don’t know that we had the agenda or anything like that before I ever left Australia.
Did the overseas CUNA Directors, CUNA International Directors, sort of get together as a bloc?
TB: Well we got together I think only on the basis that we were from overseas. I think it was a natural sort of a tendency for us to swing together in terms of talking to one another and not being Americans, or if you like Canadians. They were, to some extent, the largest number of people there. I think that was a fairly natural sort of a situation to occur. But I don’t think there was anything earth-moving in what happened there. I can remember that priest from Peru though, I can’t remember his name now. I know that he ended up leaving the Church and he was pretty good on the whisky bottle. I think he used to train on a bottle of whisky before he went to the meetings, which rather staggered me, I was a little bit off-put by that. However, I don’t want to be judgemental about those sorts of things. I found those people, whether they were American, Canadian or any other nationality, basically pretty dedicated to what they were doing.
Anybody outstanding that you can remember of the Americans, or any of the others, while you were overseas? Did you meet Paddy Bailey at that time?
TB: Oh yes. I had met Paddy Bailey before then and I was very impressed with Paddy Bailey. Paddy Bailey was a very outstanding man in my opinion. I don’t know whether he is still alive or not. I still have a photo of Paddy Bailey with my family. We went out together on the trip that he came out here. I remember we went and had a picnic and we had some photos taken when my children and my wife were together with him.
This was down at Albion Park here is it?
TB: No it was not down at Albion Park, this was up in Sydney. As a matter of fact there was some sort of procession on up in Sydney at the time and I think that we were together at that time. We also went out to Narrabeen, out at Manly, and had a picnic out there together with Paddy Bailey. It may well have been that time in 1964, I just don’t quite remember now. He was a very learned, very intelligent man who I think had a great soul, a great heart. He believed in the credit union movement, but he not only believed in it he practised it. He had to travel all over the world. He was a very well-educated man too. I always used to feel rather humble amongst those people, because my education wasn’t of any great standard really.
Looks all right to me, you have got it in front of you there.
TB: Intermediate Certificate, very lowly.
So anything else outstanding that happened during the time you were in the States?
TB: Well the meeting itself it was very impressive. You are talking about something like over three hundred people at the Annual General Meeting, delegates. It was quite staggering really. Of course I had to get up and talk at some point of time, because that was what the accepted thing was that the representative of Australia got up and addressed the meeting. Quite frankly today I couldn’t tell you what it was that I talked about, but I did it. I didn’t know whether I could because it is not that easy to get up in front of three hundred-odd people and talk to them. Whatever I said was well received. But then again I think they were rather kind. Yes there were some outstanding people. The President of CUNA at that time, a Mr Morgan I just can’t remember his first name, I thought he was quite an outstanding person really. As I did the General Manager of the CUNA, Owen Schripe, was a pretty intelligent sort of a gentleman. Another man who impressed me, his name has escaped me, was the Manager of the Texas Credit Union League, I think. I had the privilege of staying at his home on one occasion because he lived in Dallas, I think. I was very impressed with him. He was a very dedicated man, you know.
When you came back, you came back via Fiji and you told us something about that. So we will go on from your overseas trip then.
TB: I went to New Zealand on the way back too. I went down to New Zealand and met Colin Smith and had to talk to a gathering down there about the trip, etc. I remember that because they had that fellow Clarke, who was full-back for the New Zealand Rugby Union football. A champion full-back and a champion goal-kicker. He had spoken. I think I was a terribly poor follow-up to him. However, I was only in New Zealand for only two or three days. I travelled down to two or three places and talked with people. It was really a sort of an inter-change. I talked about some of the things that had happened while I was over in America and Canada and my experiences and passed them on to them. I did quite a bit of talking with Colin Smith, actually, because he was really the one that was the operational person down there. We just exchanged things that might have been valuable to one another.
Now the Chapter. Where you involved in the formation of that?
TB: No I wasn’t involved in the formation of the Chapters, no.
Were you involved on the City of Sydney Chapter at all?
TB: Well yes I used to go to the City of Sydney Chapter meetings. I attended them for quite a while, regularly. I thought they were very worthwhile. Ron Birch was I think the Secretary and leading light as far as the Chapter was concerned. He worked assiduously to keep it going and to make it what it was. I thought it was quite good really because it gave you the chance to have interchanges of ideas and express opinions about things that you didn’t have otherwise. The only other chance you had of doing that was at the Annual General Meeting and basically then you were restricted to whatever was on the agenda plus what you were able to get through in General Business.
Was Owen Jones, of the City Council Credit Union, Secretary or on the Co-ordination Committee at that stage of the proceedings or was it only Ron Birch that you remember?
TB: Well Ron Birch is the person that sticks in my mind more than anything else about the Chapter. Obviously there were other people involved.
Do you remember where the Chapter met?
TB: I am just trying to think where we did in point of fact meet. I am not too sure if that again was up at CSR’s building where they had this bit of a room. I think they had a fairly large room there. I have a sort of idea we moved somewhere else after that, but it has got away from me a bit. The League may have found a place afterwards.
The Sydney County Council as well had a place. Their Sports and Social Club or something. You don’t remember that? Well never mind. Were you involved in the Institute of Credit Union Directors at all?
TB: No.
Or the ICUM, the Institute of Credit Union Managers?
TB: No.
What about AFCUL, were you on that at all?
TB: No.
Nor the Foundation, the Australian Foundation?
TB: No.
It is a checklist anyway. What about the World Council?
TB: No.
You were at CUNA International, which of course is a forerunner.
TB: Yes I met a gentleman there, Madeiros, who was in fact I think the President or Chairman of that particular Council you are talking about later on. He was a bloody wild guy at that Annual General Meeting. I went out a few times with him and boy did he let his hair down. He came from Hawaii. He was a terrific bloke. When I went in 1964 he thoroughly enjoyed himself at that convention, thoroughly enjoyed himself. When I met him later on, when he came out here to Australia, I couldn’t believe it he was so different. Of course he was quite a few years older then too, I think.
You didn’t get to attend the World Council in Sydney in 1979?
TB: No.
So when did you meet him, when he came out here?
TB: Well when you say the World Council in 1979 there was something I went to in Sydney. I don’t know whether it was that. They had a meeting. They invited a lot of old Directors and that sort of thing to it, is that what you are talking about? You are talking about a World Council meeting, aren’t you? I don’t think I would have been invited to a World Council meeting because I didn’t have anything to do with that particular thing. I can remember an occasion when we were all invited up and I think it was then that I met Madeiros, at a function.
Well it might have been a Founders’ meeting.
TB: It may have been at a Founders’ meeting, yes.
They had presentations to founders.
TB: Well that may well have been the case, because I was the founder of a number of credit unions.
Did you get presented with Founder’s medal?
TB: I don’t know about a medal. All I ever had was that little Founder’s badge. Yes I have a Founder’s badge somewhere. Probably can’t find it now.
So it must have been at the time of the World Council meeting in 1979 when they presented it to you?
TB: I don’t think so. I think I was presented with a Founder’s badge long before that. They had Founders’ badges before then.
Yes, they were from America long before then.
TB: That’s right.
But you are talking about Madeiros being there.
TB: Yes, well I don’t remember getting one but I may have. That doesn’t ring a bell with me to be quite frank with you.
You weren’t involved with the split down this way, but were you aware of the Southern Association at all?
TB: Oh yes. Now wait a minute are we talking about the same thing? Now down there the Association of Credit Unions that were related to, if you like, what we used to call AIS, the steel works. Now they had their own association and they wouldn’t have a bar of ours. So there was never any split, because they never ever got together. Are we talking about the same thing?
Yes, but what happened during the split was that the Southern Association had a number of other regional committees. One in Newcastle, which was known as the Northern Committee and one in Sydney called the Central.
TB: Yes, that would be right. But they never ever joined the Credit Union League.
But they became separate Leagues on their own then, after that.
TB: Yes and they would have been trying to take memberships away from the League.
Which they did.
TB: Yes, that’s right.
You weren’t involved in all that?
TB: Well no. The only way that I was involved as far as the Credit Union League was concerned was that I would have been out selling the Credit Union League. That was the only thing I was interested in. As a matter of fact, to be quite frank with you, I did not consider the steel works credit union, call it whatever you like, down here as being what we would have regarded as being a pure credit union. It was run by management, as far as we were concerned at that time. The Directors were virtually people that had been selected by the management of the Australian Iron and Steel.
End Tape 2A: 4011 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes.
14 JUNE 1990: ANSWCU52: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM BLOOD
There is one area that we haven’t discussed much at all yet and that is the Savings Protection Fund. Do you remember the initiatives towards that? Was it raised at the time that you went over to the United States? I think it was later on that Dermot Ryan came back and reported on that.
TB: The Savings Protection Fund was already in vogue, I think, before I went to the States.
Wasn’t that the loan protection insurance?
TB: Loan protection insurance, that is what you are talking about is it?
No. Savings Protection Fund.
TB: Is this something that was initiated by the credit union movement or by the Minister’s office?
Well it became the Reserve eventually, but the Savings Protection Fund was initiated by the League.
TB: Yes I remember the Savings Protection Fund because there had to be a reserve put aside which was gradually built up. That reserve was for when credit unions got into trouble for whatever reason and they had to be bailed out. That fund was there to bail them out.
But do you remember who mooted it during that time?
TB: I would not be honest in saying who specifically might have been the person who might have said it should be so.
It is just that you see I am aware of when Dermot Ryan went to America with Ken Miller and Dermot reported on it and from that point it took off. But I was wondering whether discussions were around before that?
TB: Well there were I am sure. There were discussions around before it and it had been talked about. I feel in my own mind that it had been talked about and it was something that, as I remember it, if I was still on the League Board when those discussions were occurring that the Board generally, as a Board, were fully supportive of such an idea.
I am sure they were, but do you remember anything?
TB: Well it is very hard to recall to be quite honest with you. I really should be able to recall such an important thing as that.
I don’t even know if it was. The first I heard of it was 1967. I know it was around in America of course.
TB: The whole thing is, even though I went off the Board in 1964 or 1965, whenever it was, 1965, I did not lose my interest in what was happening. So what I am saying is anything that happened after 1965 I would not have had an input to it because I would not have been on the Board and I would not have been attending any of the Board meetings, therefore I wouldn’t have had an opportunity to have an input in to it.
I was just trying to get information about whether it was discussed at Board meetings before that, that’s all.
TB: I have got an idea that it was because it is something that is quite strong in my mind.
You mentioned something which also makes me prick my ears up. Talking about the Roy F Bergengren School in Fiji and you went through there in 1964. Now I know Stan Arneil was on about a new South Pacific Association of Credit Union Leagues which was supposed to finance that.
TB: Yes they tried to form one. I don’t know whether it ever got off the deck.
It started well enough but it didn’t get enough money.
TB: Incidentally the Bergengren School, when I was in Fiji there were no people attending any School at the Roy Bergengren House, if you would like to call it that. It was used for me specifically just for the purpose of staying overnight. There was no-one there, apart from the thousands of huge frogs that used to greet me each night when I went home. They were everywhere. They talk about cane toads, I think these things would swallow the cane toads.
Let’s do a bit more of a checklist here. You weren’t involved with EDVEST or anything like that. You were never at any AFCUL meetings after that at all?
TB: No.
I can’t help thinking that you must have been at some meeting where you were presented with the Founder’s badge. For instance in 1973, I think, AFCUL had their Annual Meeting in Wollongong, were you not invited to that?
TB: I could have been. The thing is was it a day time meeting?
It was a weekend I think.
TB: Well you see I have got this memory gap, this memory break. If in fact they kept any records.
I was just after your memories.
TB: I realise that, but what I am saying to you is my memory is not efficient and I may have been there.
If you don’t remember it, there is no point in pursuing it. I am only after what you can remember. We don’t want to confuse the issue. How do you think the credit union movement has influenced your life? How has it changed your life?
TB: Well I certainly wouldn’t have got divorced but I think it did make life difficult for my wife. I must admit that I became totally wrapped up from 1958 to the time that the decision was taken to take this position with the Maritime Board in 1966 down in Port Kembla. That was a decision not only based on the fact that I was involved with credit unions and I needed to do something about easing off there, it was an economic decision as far as my family were concerned too. The demands on my time from the credit union movement because of my activity with the MSB Credit Union, because I went to Chapter meetings and because I attended League Board meetings. Particularly just in that short period after I came back from America and up until the time before I actually resigned off the Board and left Sydney to come to Wollongong in 1966, there were very heavy demands on my time. Because of the fact that I had been the National Director and I was required to go to meetings at various places, not only in Sydney. I can remember going up to Speers Point up at Lake Macquarie and various other places to talk to rather large gatherings of people about the credit union movement. Trying to foster the movement, in point of fact.
What was that meeting at Speers Point? Was it an Annual General Meeting of the League?
TB: No it wasn’t an Annual General Meeting of the League. It was a meeting of a credit union up there, I think, from the area. There was a very large number of people attended. I can remember it was held at a club, I am not sure whether it was a boat club or what, right down on the waterfront. It was a beautiful area and a very large place and a very large gathering. I hadn’t been very long back from America and I was really imbued with the spirit and I really gave it to them. I got a very good reception that night I must admit. It was very demanding for me at the time and very demanding for my wife because we had at that stage six children. You know they were ranging down in ages and at school and I am sure that my wife was a long-suffering wife. I think eventually she let me know that something had to change so something did change. Probably it was a little stroke of luck that the question of employment entered into the situation and I had to make the break. It was difficult for me, particularly making the break with my own credit union, being on the Board when I left at that time. But I was quite happy to leave and go down to Wollongong. I was quite happy that the people behind me were going to do a good job and they did. When unexpectedly five years later the Maritime Board said to me, ‘There’s a job up here in Sydney for you,’ I came back to Sydney in 1971. The question of the MSB Credit Union’s own Board was raised because the then Chairman, Bert Annover, was coming to Port Kembla to succeed me in the position that I was in. So I said I would be prepared to go back on the Board but under the clear understanding that I would be the Chairman. Sounds like blackmail doesn’t it.
So what did they say?
TB: Nobody argued. I went back and was elected as Chairman of the credit union and spent another five years on the Board up there before I retired.
But you didn’t go back doing anything on the League.
TB: No. It was not humanly possible I don’t believe for me to be involved with the League at that stage because I was travelling to Sydney every day. That involved a twelve to fourteen hour day without doing anything else outside.
Were you involved with your credit union in the insurance split? I mean, for instance, were you at Annual Meetings of the League?
TB: I might have been. You mean in that period in the early 1970s. That could have been where the tie-up was because I was back there. As a matter of fact I can give you something they gave me. We never believed in spending money, incidentally, at our credit union on Directors for whatever they did do. There was a tiny little honorarium and I was the one that was dead against those. So what they did was, one of our Directors, in point of fact or she became a Director, made this up. She worked in the Survey Branch and the Board got her to make this up to present to me at my last Annual General Meeting of the MSB Credit Union that I chaired. If it was at any time related to within that area, yes it is possible that I could have been present.
Well it was, of course, because the actual insurance split sort of started in late 1971, that was when the rejection of CUNA Mutual-CUMIS as official insurer to the League was first passed through the Board. That was presented in 1972 as a fait accompli. Then the Board was given instructions to go and find a better deal off the other insurance companies, which they had a bit of difficulty doing. That was done during that period.
TB: Well I would have been at the Annual Meetings probably representing the MSB Board.
Do you remember where the Annual Meeting was?
TB: Oh we used to hold them out at the University of New South Wales, at Kensington.
That’s correct. The actual meeting where the big split happened was out there I know. Do you remember exactly where at the University?
TB: Well they had convention centres out there and I know that the centre they had out there was very, very large. There was room for not only holding a meeting but having a little bit of entertainment on the side, like catering and all that type of thing.
Well there were several meetings at the Round House, but apart from that there was Unisearch House over the road there, do you remember that?
TB: Yes I remember Unisearch House, yes.
It was a bowling alley before it was Unisearch House.
TB: Was it? I didn’t know that.
It is still there.
TB: Yes, I know Unisearch House. Now that this comes out I would have been there.
But you can’t remember sufficiently about the ructions that went on can you?
TB: The only thing that I can remember, and this is what I said to you before, it was very, very heated and Stan Arneil, you know, I think he felt that he had been stabbed in the back. That was my impression of it.
Oh yes he felt that, I am sure he did.
TB: On the other hand, personally, my own view was that the League took the right decision. I don’t mean in stabbing Stan in the back, I mean in terms of the decision relating to that particular aspect of their operations.
However it did split the League didn’t it?
TB: Yes, but that was inevitable I think because there were different camps. OK that is a fact of life. The League wouldn’t have been the first organisation that has been split, I mean the ALP was split wasn’t it. I mean we did have a DLP at one stage didn’t we.
Yes. I have interviewed Jack Caine. He has the record for longest length of interview.
TB: You know these things don’t mean anything to me now. They wouldn’t mean anything to you either, because that is a personal thing.
It is very well done.
TB: You can take it with you.
No, I really think that is more suitable to the MSB Credit Union.
TB: I think the Board should have that. They gave it to me but I don’t think it means anything. But if they want to put anything up there that has come from America, that was in 1964 when I was in Mobile. They only made me an Honorary Citizen down there, it is only junk you know but it is only lying in a cupboard.
Well I think that thing that you credit union gave you, should go back to your credit union, don’t you think so?
TB: Yes I would be happy to give it back. It is only going to lie in a cupboard here. But in America they gave me this.
Honorary Citizen, the Key to the City.
TB: If you want to have that and give it to them as a record they can have it, I don’t care. I am quite happy to pass it back to the League Board, to the League to keep if they want it.
That was the Key to the City of Mobile.
TB: That’s right. I was accompanied by a member of the Alabama Credit Union League down to Mobile, which was the last place I went to before I left Alabama. I was taken in and introduced to the Mayor, do they call him a Mayor?
Yes.
TB: Introduced to the Mayor. You know I think apparently they do this with certain people that call into the city if they think that they rate it. Apparently we must have rated it. Maybe the credit union movement was pretty powerful down there, I don’t know. Anyhow that is what happened. It is nothing great, but I would be quite happy to pass it back to the League if they feel they want to keep it in their records. I was given the opportunity to go to America, which would never have occurred under any other circumstance. If there is anything I owe that to them. Although I will be quite honest with you in my own heart and mind I think that if they did give me something by sending me to America, I think I repaid it to them in what I gave to them afterwards and before. So I don’t have any sort of guilty conscience about things.
There is nothing on that Key to say where it came from and that is a bit of a problem.
TB: There is nothing on the Key at all, just that it is the Key to the City you see. In point of fact the box was made in Japan.
I wonder whether the Key was.
TB: I don’t know about that. It says Waltham there. It was Mobile, Alabama. Of course 1702 I presume is probably the foundation date of the city.
Well I don’t think the League is thinking of starting an archive, because they are handing stuff over to the Australian Credit Union Historical Co-operative. They are not actually keeping things themselves. They are actually clearing a lot of stuff out of the League.
TB: They have got too much.
It is up to you. If you donate anything it will go to the Australian Credit Union Historical Co-operative.
TB: Well if you feel that they would want it, you can take it.
Well that’s a curly one.
TB: Right leave it. You can check it out if you want to.
I will check it out with Tom Kelly. We have got quite a lot of things like that so he might be interested. Berry Calverley particularly, they have got all his stuff, a terrific amount of stuff. Now do you think the credit union movement has stuck by its principles over the years? Do you think it has changed?
TB: I think it has. Things change. I think the gradual moving away from the old system of the interest rate on loans has changed. The introduction of professional staff has certainly had some affect on the credit union movement. Some would argue that was for good, others would say that maybe it hasn’t been a good influence. I think I would have to take the positive view that if they are going to continue to exist they have probably had to make changes, it has been necessary. Incidentally this is my wife Pat, this is Richard.
The last question really I wanted to ask you was have you any suggestions of other people who should be interviewed who haven’t been? Have you any ideas in that direction?
TB: You did show me that list, but could I see it again? No, I think you probably have got the coverage.
Right, well I will say, thank you very much Mr Tom Blood.
TB: My pleasure.
End Tape 2B: 2984 Words: 1 hour 15 minutes.