I’m talking to Mr. Merv Callaghan of Queensland Police Credit Union and a number of other Credit Unions. One of the pioneers of Queensland Credit Unions and I’ll ask you this is side one, and I’ll ask you Mr. Merv Callaghan where your were born and when?

I was born on the 4th January 1919 I was born at Ipswich and I did my early schooling at Ipswich. From there entered the work force later on in about 1936.

What did your father do?

My father was a railway guard, he was one of the senior guards in Ipswich at the time, he had 46 years of service in the Queensland Railway Department.

And was there any influence particularly that you picked up later in life from your father or mother?

Well, my father was a very strong union orientated man in that he was a very fair and just man, he drilled into me and to other members of my family an intense appreciation of the union movement generally and the need for social justice.

Any religious influence at all?

He was a Roman Catholic as I am of course and so is my whole family, we followed that. He lived and died a Catholic and I shall live and die a Catholic, I hope.

What sort of influence did you get from your mother?

My mother was a very quiet woman. She was a school teacher as a young girl, she really influenced the educational direction of my family and she was quite a reserved type. She was very well liked by the people with whom she came into contact.

Was there a sporting tradition in the family?

Well yes, we were all sports minded. My brother for instance Pat Callaghan, was the Queensland State tennis champion, he first came into prominence very early in tennis. He was a gifted athlete really, he was a running champion and broad jump champion at his schools and he became very much a tennis player, my father built a tennis court at our home at Ipswich and we were all tennis players but he was by far the best of the family and he was the youngest person ever to represent Queensland in the Linton Cup that’s the under 19’s, he represented Queensland at the age of 13. Incidentally he holds a straight sets victory over Frank Sedgmann se he was a pretty good player.

What about at school, what did you like and dislike there?

Well, I was school captain. In the athletics field I captained the football team and also the cricket team, and I of course naturally played in the tennis team so we were very much sport orientated in the early days, from there on I carried a love of sport and I still like sport very, very much.

What did you like and dislike in the school work?

I had no real objection to school work, I liked school work, I did fairly well at school and I entered the teachers college on a scholarship, Queensland Teachers College in 1936 and I won my place there. I finished in the first 13 in Queensland in that particular year.

What was your first job?

My first job was a school teacher. On the 18th October 1938 I took up an appointment at the Gladstone State and High School, I worked through 38, 39 and 1940 until when I was teaching at Millmerran I became very much interested in football, and I wanted to get back into the football scene. I applied for and got an appointment to a one teacher school and from there I played football in Ipswich, at that particular stage I became involved in tutoring a chap who was wanting to join the police force, as young 20 year olds we decided to do something about joining one of the service areas and at that time we were both knocked back on applications to join the empire air training scheme which was then in its infancy, both of us were then appointed to the police force and served in the police force from then through the war years. I became very much involved in the educational areas of the Queensland Police Service.

Did you have any formal police training?

Yes, I was a sworn in police officer, I did the training course in Brisbane at the police depot and from there was appointed to the C.I.. branch and I worked there as an interviewing officer for about 12-13 months. Then I received an appointment to the educational section, a throwback from my educational days in the Queensland teaching service. Then happened to be the only teacher in the Queensland Police service and I was charged then with the responsibility of education or assisting in the education of the young police officers. I was sent out to the university at government expense to train in law and I qualified in the areas of criminal law, commercial law, bankruptcy law, taxation law and industrial law. I then lectured in law for about 18 and 1/2 years at the police academy, then called the police depot of Petrie Terrace.

So how did you get into the Credit Union movement, did you go through the union movement first?

Yes, I was a member of the Queensland Police Union Executive from about 1951-1961, I became very much involved with conditions of service pay and structure of the service generally and allied with my lecturing commitments then I then became more and more personally involved with the problems of police, and as part of my law training I had completed a full 12 months of industrial law at the university and having succeeded in qualifying in that area as a member of the executive of the union, then I was nominated by my peers as general secretary and I won the ballot and I became the general secretary in 1961. I served through unopposed until 1983, which is a very long period.

When did you first hear about Credit Unions?

I heard about Credit Unions in 1958. I was then secretary of the police depot branch of the Queensland Police Union at the time we had a number of branches at each of the various big establishments and being secretary of the depot branch I was appointed to attend a conference which was a training conference of the Queensland Police Union and part of the suggested agenda was about the establishment of a Credit Union, now I had never heard of a Credit Union in those days and my branch decided it would be a good idea. There was a spokesman there who was promoting this idea. He had heard this from Godfrey Stevens and others in the ABC, at the time they had their own Credit Union running and this fellow put up such a very good case, it was adopted by my branch. I was directed then to put it up to conference, well shortly after that and before the conference started, I was sent by an inspector in charge of the depot, at the commissioner’s direction to Warburton where I studied the course for air raid wardens, as an aftermath of the war. We had to brush up on all our knowledge of what should be done in the event of an atomic raid. I spent a 3 week course at Mt. Macedon and I qualified through the course, I came back and wrote a series of papers for the education of police in those particular areas, but the important point was this, that I could not attend the conference of the police union at the time and I had the power of appointing a proxy, I appointed the proxy, the chap who had moved that we should have a Credit Union. I thought he was the best advised to put that particular matter before the conference and he did that. He did an excellent job and from there the conference endorsed the establishment of a Credit Union, that was 1958. Nothing was done at all by the then secretary of the Queensland Credit Unions until 1961. We had the next training conference, and the establishment of a Credit Union was recommitted to the conference in 1961 and again was endorsed, still again nothing was done until I had to do something about it after I became the general secretary of the union. I became general secretary of the union on the 1st July 1961. I have some information here about what we did subsequent to that, now we just could not start a credit union overnight and I then had to do some study about this because this is something I had to bring forward and the inaugural meeting for the establishment of a Credit Union for police in Queensland was held in my office that was 269 Main Street Kangaroo Point at 7:30 p.m. on Tuesday the 2nd July 1964. That meeting was called by the President of the Police Union at the time. I would like to add into the record the names of those people who attended because Bernie Bright was the President he called the meeting and there was a chap named Ray Volz, George Bontoft, R.M. Rend, Norm Riddell, Col Chant, Mick Macnamara, Mick MacMullen, Reg Carrol, John Cassidy, Harry Rose, Ken Johnson, Pock Lacaze, Neville Taylor, Pat Coleman, Jack Wright now Jack Wright is still on the board and so is Col Chant on the Queensland board, Mick MacNalley, George Walters who later became the manager, and then moved to Teachers Credit Union as their loans officer, since retired John Youee who was one of the principle instigators of the Credit Unions and there was of course myself. At that meeting was Godfrey Stevens who was the advisor to our credit union, and with him was Tom Beer from the Postal Technicians Credit Union. Tom died a few years back, and he was a great help to us in our early stages. Bernie Bright became the Chairman and here is the list of board members. John Youee was on the board and George Bontoft, Ray Voltz, George Walters, Nick MacNullan, Neville Taylor and Col Chant and myself, and as I was secretary of the Police Union at the time. It didn’t take them long to vote me in as secretary of the new Credit Union, we did actually have that board as our first board meeting. I even jotted down the time we had it at 10 past 10 that night.

What was the address?

269 Main Street Kangaroo Point. It’s just over the Story Bridge. They refer to some of the people in the early days as the Woolloongabba four.

Do you know why and who?

Yes John Youee, Jack Wright, Ray Voltz and George Bontoft. They were together they were the four that really gave it the shove along.

So where did the registered office of the Credit Union start?

269 Main Street Kangaroo Point. We sort for and became registered very quickly and then we moved from there to establishing all the necessary formats for the Credit Union. We had arranged payroll deductions with the Queensland Police Department through the good graces of the Premier who was later Sir Francis Nickalan. We had that meeting with the registrar on the 19th, very shortly afterwards it did not take us very long to move, we became registered on the 19th July let me check, yes, we received registration on the 30th July 1964, and 35 members were our first registered membership.

Who did the work of the Credit Union in the first instance?

Well secretaries usually did all the work in those times.

That’s you?

Well yes, I had to set up. It was my work in those days, to be secretary of the Police Union and I had staff I had a girl that was able to assist me I’d dictate the minutes and those types of things and actually we were living from a suitcase in those days, and I can remember we started to receive money in and we had four loan applications within weeks, I can remember them as if they were yesterday, there was one for 500 pound, one for 100 pound, one for 500 and won for 360 pound, so in the first month we had loans for 1460 pound as it was in those days.

So that was 1964 not 1974?

Yes 1964, we sought application to join the league on the 1st September 1964 and at that particular meeting there were only five Credit Unions affiliated with the league, because I was the secretary I was appointed as …………..to represent the Police at the league board and I became a league board member. Godfrey Stevens was at that time Chairman of the league, a chap named O’Callaghan who was the secretary of a very small Credit Union called Carryatasawonga it was very small it had 9 members that’s all they had and was the secretary of this new league. It wasn’t long before we saw we would have to do some hard work and met many times to get the league really functioning.

When did the Australian Federation of Police Credit Unions start and do you remember how it started?

Yes I can remember how it started, in my work as general secretary of the Police Union I became very involved in problems with Police Forces all over Australia, and we did have operating at that time and before I became the General Secretary a federation of Police Associations and Unions, now Police Associations and Unions because in some of the states Unions were not allowed to operate they had to be called Associations, that had been going since about 1945, I can remember the starting of that too. That did a lot of great work , from my experiences on the Police Union Executive I was quite firmly convinced that unless we federated and swapped ideas and gave back to our brother secretaries we would be like one out all the time, in our approaches to the various government departments. So that was a wonderful success. I can recall at that Newport School, I was President of the Queensland Branch when I attended that first Newport School and it was at that conference that I proposed the establishment of A.F.C.U.L. Australian Federation of Credit Union Leagues as it was called then, that was supported by New South Wales, we were the only two functioning Leagues at that time . The Police angle of it started almost immediately from that time around about 1966, the Australian Federation of Police Credit Unions started.

Who else was involved do you remember, was Jack Ross involved?

You mean the Queensland contingent to A.F.C.U.L.? Yes Jack Ross, he was a gifted person and he suffered a lot of health problems but he was a gifted enthusiast, he was a member of the Queensland Teachers Union at the time and he was a very able man at writing constitutional programs. It was he and I who collaborated and wrote the first constitution for A.F.C.U.L. He became the Vice President of A.F.C.U.L. Stan Arneil was President and I was secretary.

How did you get down to the first Newport School you attended? Was that the first one?

I came down at the invitation of Stan Arneil. Stan came to Queensland looking for expansion of the Credit Union movement, he was at that time Chairman of the New South Wales Credit Union League, he addressed a meeting of the various Queensland Credit Unions and I was at that time Chairman or President of the Queensland Credit Union League.

We had Bob to bless ourselves with at that time, the idea of sending someone down to the Newport School was a problem of expense, Stan expansively said we will pick up the bill, you come. So I was sent down by the Queensland League at New South Wales expense to attend that school.

What year was that?

That was 1965.

Now that was the year that A.F.C.U.L. was formed, was it?

No A.F.C.U.L. was formed the following year.

You weren’t down at the 1964 school? There were two that year

I was at the first school in 1964 then I went back to second school of leaders and learners in 1965. It was at the ‘65 school the suggestion of Federation came up.

The first I understand, although some people dispute it. The first Newport school was organized by Chapters committee of the New South Wales League, do you know anything about this?

I have no knowledge about that at all but would accept that it could have been the case.

But the one that you went to in ‘65 that was organized jointly by the League and …………….. was it?

Yes, the lecturers at that school in those days were Charlie Compton, Carlos Matos the Fijian chap Johnny Nisarta and Father Ganey they were the four lecturers at that second school.

I noticed a couple of photographs I don’t know whether they were that year of Johnny Nisarta in a dinner jacket with black tie apparently, he was the only one in evening dress, and from the photograph it looked as though he was getting a bit of a roasting. Do you remember this occasion?

I don’t know. I don’t think I was in that photo, I can’t recall that at all. Johnny was a wonderfully simple chap, and I mean that in the form of a chap that was everyone’s friend and a dedicated Credit Union person from the real philosophical grass roots level of the Credit Union.

And was Father Ganey there that year in ‘65?

Yes he was there. He had been sponsored out here by Beresford Calvary. He had been Chairman at one stage of the New South Wales League, a very fine fellow and a chap who brought Father Ganey to Australia on at least 3 occasions to my knowledge at his own expense.

At his own expense?

At his own personal expense yes.

I notice from well you know that I was just recently on a trip to Queensland in connection with the old history association …………..conference and I volunteered to and did record some Queensland people up there. I did some research before I went and all the stuff that we have about Queensland Credit Unions and the League came from boxes apparently donated to the New South Wales League by Beresford Calverley and there was a lot of valuable reports and material from Queensland with his characteristic shorthand and notes down the side. What were his contacts in Queensland?

Well Beresford came to Queensland on a number of occasions, he was a friend of mine and he would always seek me out when he came up to Queensland, mind you that friendship started when I was President of the League up there and he was President of the League in New South Wales. He was always looking to gather as much material as he could about operations and functions of Credit Unions. Whatever he would have stored and made available to the historical society would be valuable material.

Yes, but it’s all sorts of Credit Unions, Bardon Parish was one.

Yes, Bardon Parish started off in about 1965, at that time the Parish Priest was a chap named Father Ray Lyons. I was amazed one day, I was young and enthusiastic about establishing Credit Unions. I had seen the operations of some Parish Credit Unions in New South Wales, and I rang him one day and asked him if he was interested in discussing Credit Unions with me. He said yes, I will come down and talk with you. So, we sat down over a cup of coffee and he talked about Credit Unions, well I was amazed he knew far more about Credit Unions than I did, and I had attended a couple of schools by this time. I asked him, how did you come to know so much about Credit Unions? Well, I did that as a project during my seminary days. He of course gave us great support. That was the first Parish Credit Union in South Queensland.
There were other Credit Unions established in the Rockhampton area in the Catholic groups, but Bardon was the first and it is still operational and I am still on the board and we meet every second Wednesday, we have quite an enthusiastic board made up of older members and several younger ones which is good for the Credit Union movement.

Did you ever come across or hear about the Christian Credit Union which was formed in Brisbane right back in 1946?

No, I had never heard of that. Now that could have been a spin off from the establishment of the early Universal Credit Union, was it?

No, it was actually started before Universal Credit Union, by about 3 weeks.

It must have been I suppose brought here by a person from overseas do you think?

Well, I have actually recorded Munro Cutmore who was from that Credit Union and he told me about how it got here, it actually got here by virtue of William McDonald who wrote to Douglas Credit people in Alberta, and that’s how it started. Entirely independent of any other organization in Australia.

That’s interesting from my point of view. I did not know that. It certainly was not a member of the Queensland Credit Union League, and that is the first notice I’ve had of it. I’m well aware of the establishment of the Rockhampton Credit Unions at Archer Park and those places up there which were little community Credit Unions, they called them penny banks in those days. Park Avenue was one.

Mr. Merv Callaghan Side 2

You were looking up some of the details of the Newport Schools you were involved in.

The first Newport school that I attended ran from 23rd October – 30th October 1965 that was the year that I met Compton and those other members I mentioned Carlos Matos and Johnny Masata and Father Ganey.

Now Charles Compton what his job was and where was he from?

He was a Vice President for field operations for I think Cuna Mutual in those days, I always knew him as an insurance man.

And he was sent over from America was he?

Yes, he was sent here as a lecturer.

And Carlos Matos?

Also, he became one of the senior Vice Presidents of Cuna Mutual, they were the insurance men.

What about Father Ganey?

Father Ganey is well documented as one of the leaders of the Credit Union movement in the Pacific he had come from Honduras early on and was appointed to Fiji and from very humble beginnings in Fiji he developed Credit Union philosophies amongst the native people there. I visited him on three occasions in Fiji, in Suva.

Do you remember what years?

They would be around that span of time from, 1968-1970 .

Can you remember the South Pacific Association of Credit Unions League?

Yes, we called it the South Pacific Confederation of Credit Uniona League. It developed in Australia after my visit to Madison in Wisconsin in 1968. Now I think it happened in 1969. Stan Arniel was the person who conceived this grandiose idea which actually was the forerunner of the World Council he had taken up with Father Collins in Hong Kong and Andrew So in Hong Kong and Joe Rotto from Fiji, we had other prominent members from the movement in New South Wales and Victoria, Jack Ross and I came down representing Queensland. The secretary of the confederation was Joe Rotto, Stan Arniel was President and I was Vice President.

What exactly was the history of it?

The history of it was conceived on the basis that we felt the South Pacific needed a greater development program, we believed that we had lots of responsibilities in the areas of Hong Kong, New Guinea, New Zealand and the Islands of the Pacific along with our Australian involvement, we felt that this corner of the world was being somewhat neglected. The idea was and it certainly was not my idea, that something should be done about it and the meeting evolved from that.

So what happened, the organisation was eventually wound up?

Yes it was wound up when the blue print for the World Council was established.

So that was ‘68-’69 then?

That was ‘69 yes, we functioned only for about 12 or 18 months. I’ll tell you who came out here about then, Patty Bailey and he thought our involvement was quite a good thing for the development of the area.

Do you remember an occasion when I think it was Cuna wanted to appoint a South Pacific representative they advertised in Quest in Australia, a number of people put in for it did you?

No, I did not.

Eventually Maurie Ryan got the job and because his Credit Union was not in the League there was a general boycott of him in the position. In fact he was embarrassed in America by Ken Miller getting up and speaking against his appointment.

I was not present at that meeting and I can understand the internal strife that was going on within the movement in New South Wales at the time, it became a real problem later on. I was removed from all of that situation although I was friends with all those various people, but I kept clear of the internal politics in Credit Unions in Australia and happily so.

And what about the insurance split in New South Wales as well, did you manage to keep clear of that also?

Yes I kept clear of that too. It was a real tragedy there were a lot of personalities involved in that, I know both sides of the story, I received a long explanation from Stan Arniel on his involvement. I have heard a lot of other talk in New South Wales of their involvement. I kept clear of it at all times. I kept it always at arms length, it would have been impossible for anyone outside New South Wales to know all the pros and cons.

Even this person from New South Wales finds it still rather baffling. There is another thing I was thinking about re: the foundation. I mean you talking about the South Pacific Confederation and the needs felt towards the other Credit Union of the South Pacific area, could it not be that the foundation developed from that?

Yes, it certainly did, it developed probably in the last couple of years of my involvement with A.F.C.U.L., I was the Queensland representative on the Queensland board and held the position of Vice President of A.F.C.U.L. and I was Queensland delegate to A.F.C.U.L. But in those actions that were taken to establish the foundation we were sponsored in the main by New South Wales representatives. They deserve great praise for what they did in that time. The actual operations of the foundation I can’t assist you with, they did set up a board to oversee the assistance to be given and the circumstances of which assistance to be given to the various areas and people but beyond that I can’t assist you further.

Do you remember any of the barnies Ryan used to have regarding the disbursement of the funds of the foundation?

No, I do not. Dermot of course was a very fine fellow and a man with very positive ideas and he was a very able fellow, he sometimes did not temper his enthusiasm with constraint, and he made a lot of enemies.

Even his friends reckon he was a bit of a larrikin.

Oh, he was a great fellow I had many enjoyable experiences with Dermot and we had a lot of arguments, but we were always very good friends. Yes, he was a great friend of mine.

Do you remember any of the arguments as well as the other times?

Yes insignificant ones really, I had a position I suppose which might have been regarded as power in my own state and influence in my own state, and Dermot did not agree with some of our submissions and plainly told me so and I told him just as plainly that it was a Queensland State concern, we were having disagreements on those sorts of points but nothing to the detriment of the Credit Union, but all his efforts were directed towards fostering and propagating the Credit Union movement as I believe mine were.

Yes, but what were the issues of things you argued about on a state level can you remember?

Not really, you see Queensland came into the Credit Union movement as a protected species you might say under the wing of New South Wales and we followed largely what the New South Wales League board decided in those days because we were foundlings really, we were very dependent on New South Wales.

But when New South Wales seemed to be falling apart you didn’t take sides at all?

No, I did not take sides, and neither did our state league take sides. I suppose that attitude was adopted on the basis that that was an internal matter of each particular league, we did not discuss with New South Wales our local problems in Queensland, and we did not expect to take part. The unfortunate matter came about through the insurance system of course, rebates and those sorts of things the old curse of money matters came up, money begets power and power begets expansion in lots of places and those sorts of things. We kept that out of Queensland.

I suppose we had better go on, we have to go back to the Police Credit Union in Queensland at some time do you think we will carry on in this area or do you want to go back to that now?

I’m quite happy with what ever.

I have photographs of you overseas and thinking of your involvement with A.F.C.U.L. How often were you overseas as a representative?

I represented Australia as a national director in 1968. That was my visit to Madison and I carried on a world tour at my own expense. I visited many Credit Unions in the course of my world tour.

Now within Australia you once mentioned to me that you were in a position to help out some Police Credit Unions in other states?

Yes it was very interesting, whilst I was on the Queensland Police Credit Union board I was visiting interstate on Police Union matters I was trying to propagate the establishment of Credit Unions amongst brother police forces and in Victoria we had some very interested people down there, I gave some talks to their executive and eventually they did start their Police Credit Union, and at that time Don Rye who is now retired, he was the President of our Queensland Police Credit Union we had just sold a building, it was the building at Kangaroo Point that I referred to earlier on and we had something like $125,000 which we could place somewhere, and what better place to put it than with the Victorians to give them a kick along, completely against the state laws of course but I didn’t know that. But we lent them $125,000 at the going rate I think it was 12% in those days to the Victorians, and they made their first loans very quickly and they went on there very smartly, they repaid the loan in about 9 or 10 months, and everybody was happy.

Now coming back to Police Credit Union in Queensland when you were acting as secretary and you were also secretary of the Police Association did the Credit Union have a supervisory committee?

We always did have a supervisory committee in Queensland, and they still have one and it is a very heavily contested committee. All our members of committees and boards must submit themselves for re-election, and it is seriously contested. Every member has a postal vote, when it is a number like 17,000 people that is a lot of postage for Australia Post, it is a very fair way of appointing people. We would have as board members people retire and re-submit their names they could be contested by six or seven others, they go to a general ballot. Now that happens for the board, the Credit Union committee and the supervisory committee.

So the Credit Union Committee is not made up of board members?

Members of the board may be and are on the Credit Committee, they have to contest a second ballot to do that. I have held positions on boards and Credit Committees at the same time, but if you are on the supervisory committee you cannot be a board member nor a credit committee member, so they are the watch dog for the members, they look after such matters as delinquency they go out and repossess property if such is the direction of the board. They generally do a very good job. The chap who established that was Jack Wright he was a member of the group the Woolloongabba group. Jack was not on the first board, he was appointed to the board on the 29th October 1964, he became rather concerned about delinquency problems and he worked very hard on that and developed lots of strategies and kept our delinquency rate well down below the average.

Have you got any stories about that?

You would have to have a chat to Jack about that, you could speak to him for an hour and he would bring you right up to date. I will go back and play this tape to him and say listen to that and see what you can do for the historical society.

Did they manage to get anybody who had been transferred overseas or gone overseas with bad debts?

They pursued an idea of missing friends, they wouldn’t dare to fame anybody that “hey you own us money” but they seek, of course members still in the Police service would not have a delinquency problem because their repayments would be taken out of their salary.

But suppose for instance they got suspended without pay?

That would be stood down by the board at that time. The board we found right through the board and I have had lots of arguments with the board lots of fights with the board at different times, but they have been very humane in the way they have looked at the financial problems of police and I don’t know of any instance where action was taken by the board which caused a member to be sacked. I am not saying that none ever occurred but I cannot recall any at all and I’ve been associated with them a long, long time.

That was the year that Dermot wasn’t there, was it?

He went over in 1967 and 1969 and I was there in 1968 and I visited Canada.

Tom Kelly and Allan Jones were there that year, weren’t they and George McCready?

Yes, Allan Jones and George McCready were there that year and Tom Kelly in 1968.

I didn’t see you sitting with them, but they’re always there on their own I suppose?

1968 I had my wife with me, and we were making it a world tour. I spent many hours with Allan Jones, he stayed in the establishment where I was staying so we had many dinners together. We attended an extra fortnight school after the meetings over there, and those lectures were all taped.

Who had the tapes do you remember?

They were taped on my machine, but I did not get a copy of the tapes Allan Jones had the tapes.

I have a very good idea that Mervil Daniels do you remember him?

Yes.

I have a very good idea that he has a set of them now.

Well that’s probably so yes.

He tried to give them to me and I asked him to give me a copy and I would send them back, nothing was done he still has them.

They would be valuable tapes. I don’t think Allan appreciated the value of them really.

Well Merval Daniels has got them I remember. The other person was Ray Cooper.

That’s right he was there too. There was a chap Roy Smith from Wellington, New Zealand there also.

What about Don Closs?

Yes he was there also, I’ve known Don for many years.

He is supposed to be arriving here this afternoon. He has been out of the movement for a while now I think. Were you there the year that they arranged to get a Tasmanian Devil for a zoo there?

No, that was taken over by the secretary of the Tasmanian Credit Union, he was secretary of the Police State Credit Union, a chap named Martin. He was also the secretary of the Police Association in Tasmania; he left there to become the secretary of the South Australian Police Association and from there he moved out of it completely into another area and I don’t know where he is now.

Now as far as the Police Credit Union in Queensland is concerned they have an affiliation with the Association of Police Credit Unions, now was there an overseas affiliation as well?

No overseas affiliation with Credit Union as such. We are world wide with Police an association we call the International Police Association which is based upon the Police philosophy the Police environment and not the Credit Unions philosophy or environment. I have been overseas on other occasions in relation to private tours, on those particular visits we have been met by members of the International Police Association, we would be given a tour of the sights and things, a wonderful brotherhood of police really.

One hears things about Police corruption but I’m talking about from the Police point of view is when they get suspended without pay. How does the Credit Union handle that?

Well, they take a very tolerant view, if there is no money coming in then there can be no money taken from him, so therefore they will even suspend the payment of interest during that period of time. I have known them to do that and mind you when a person is sacked from the service for other matters or leaves the service voluntarily or retires from the service there is a question of unpaid debts to be looked at, and if a person carries on and makes other arrangements whether by payroll deductions from another authority or a periodical debit from a banking system or whatever method they use to pay they will carry on with the loan, of course you realise that in instances such as those it does happen that fellows forget to pay their way and they have to be chased up, and the supervisory committee with its delinquency arm has ways and means of having a talk to them.

Now at the Queensland Police Credit Union in the period you were working with them as secretary and other positions how did they keep the books, was it all hand book keeping during the period you were involved or had they started to go to computer?

Well I can take you right back to day one. Day one of course came out of an attaché case situation where minutes were written and recorded and forms were kept cards were kept of the financial transactions now I was loaded with lots of work as a Police Union secretary and in an unpaid position I couldn’t devote unlimited time to the propagation and development of the Credit Union so I demanded of the board and they saw my point, I would handle all of the written work the letters and minutes and interviews and all those sorts of things for them in their infancy but I required the board to shoulder the load of entering cards, and keeping financial matters right up to date. It served a double purpose for me, it completely kept me away from any suggestions if money did in fact suddenly disappear it wasn’t my responsibility, that was just one advantage to me about it but the important thing was it just didn’t tie my weekends up. At one time I was secretary treasurer of five different Credit Union organizations all unpaid.

Which were those?

I was secretary of the Police, A.F.C.U.L., Australian Police Federation of Credit Unions, the Netherlands Credit Union I started that one off, Brisbane Catholic Community Credit Union now known as Sub State Credit Union and I was also involved with the South Pacific Confederation of Credit Unions League so I was fairly busy in those days. My paid work of course was secretary of the Queensland Police Union which took me out of Brisbane three and four times a year to visit places within the state and give an account of my stewardship before the members, those were busy days.

How did you become involved with Caratas, is that the one that became Caratasuwonga?

Caratasuwonga, You might recall I said O’Callaghan was the secretary and he was serving an area of only nine members then, it was a little Catholic community and the members asked me to take over from him, I did and we called it with the assistance of Tom Beer. Caratasuwonga was a very small Credit Union on the South side of Brisbane in the suburb of Yeronga the secretary was O’Callaghan, he gave away his secretaryship and I inherited it. I was in the league at the time and someone had to look after it, so I took it under my wing. That grew and was renamed the Brisbane Catholic Community Credit Union, and then the Brisbane Credit Union, and later it became Sunstate Australia with the amalgamation of a number of Credit Unions, I am still a member of it and lots of my friends are still members of it.

Have they always had the supervisory committees and such?

No, not those committees, they were mostly board members and the board in the small Credit Unions would make their own decisions on credit. Noel Kendel was the universal auditor for the Credit Union movement in Queensland, he carried on continuing audits.

Is he still around?

Yes, he gave his name to Kendels which is a very big operation now, it is probably one of the biggest establishments in Australia. I see Noel from time to time.

John Francis Richards is now involved with Kendels, I don’t know if he is a senior partner or not?

I don’t know anything about partnerships, but I do know it took its name from him.

What was the other small Credit Union you were involved with?

Bardon Parish it was a little Credit Union, it still is about a million dollar Credit Union has about 530 members, servicing the needs of a little Parish at Bardon in Brisbane, I believe the ideal Credit Union, they still have their loans and always did have their loans at 15%, they had it at 12% for years and years and then they raised it to 15%, it is the cheapest money to borrow in Brisbane. They are a very good and happy Credit Union.

Since you knew about Caratasuwonga which became Brisbane Catholic, Brisbane and then Sunstate you might have known about all that controversy there was between what is now Sunstate and what is now Credit Union Australia, there was an argument about information being supplied by the league secretary to the other Credit Union?

I don’t know any of those internal differences.

It was public, there was a court case.

Yes, there was. I did not become involved with the fine tuning of their problems. I learnt a long time ago to step back when things become rather nasty, but I must say this, I virtually started both Credit Unions, I certainly started Credit Union Australia and it came out of a labor party meeting which I was invited to attend, to give a lecture on Credit Unions back in the late 60’s. I was President of the League at the time. A chap named Jack Harvey was the secretary of the local branch. Did you meet him at all? He was a postmaster, I gave this talk and he rang me up 3 or 4 days later, and said I like what you said, I’m going to start up that will you give me a hand, I said yes certainly. I then addressed their industrial board, their union and they started and Jack saw the possibilities of it and resigned his position as postmaster to become manager very early on. Malcom Macekron is the present manager of Credit Union Australia, he is Victorian, now in Queensland. He is doing a good job. I’m still a member of that Credit Union.

Neil MacKriscal (?) was the one I interviewed on that.

Yes, well Neil, I have a citation signed by Neil when he was President of the Credit Union Australian board, acknowledging the fact that I put them in motion. It was quite a big night; it was a black tie affair.

You were the one from outside that was addressing things. Who was the first chairman?

Chairman of Postal Employees Credit Union, and they later became Credit Union Australia. I had mixed feelings about taking the name Credit Union Australia because it was a Credit Union for all Australia, which it is. Again, getting away from the old concept of common bond and integrity existing between members of the bond and those sorts of things, which is part and parcel of the Credit Union philosophy.

Well, we had better get back to the Police Credit Union. You have a few things written down here, is there anything you have researched that you want to record?

I have here various meetings that we had. As I told you earlier on we had fourteen hundred and sixty pounds were our first loans and from that position we sort affiliation with the league on the 1st September 1964. Each meeting our loans were increasing, our second meeting we passed loans to the extent of two thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight pounds, then our third meeting we had thirteen loans totaling five thousand three hundred and forty pounds. In that time people were seeing the idea of lets put our money in together, we will get a good return. We were giving them 9% and a 12% loan rate. I have a notation here that each fortnight we were recruiting 17 members as at the 10th September 1964, and we would process ten loans to the extent of three thousand three hundred and fifty-five pounds. Our next meeting 24th September, now this was only four or five months after the start of the Credit Union, we affiliated with the league. John Youee and I attended the league at the first meeting after our involvement with the league, I was a league delegate from there for about the next nine or ten years.

I think you did cover that area, it was the next bit we didn’t get to before.

Well Jack Wright, I have mentioned that he became a member on the 29th August 1964, he has been a very powerful member of the Credit Union movement there.
On the 5th August 1965 that’s over 12 months after we started the board appointed the first female assistant, Nevis Catstanza.

She learnt very quickly and virtually ran the Credit Union, with direction from myself and from the board for the next 3- 4 years. It wasn’t until 1968 that the Credit Union put on a second girl, they then grew so quickly they decided to appoint a board manager. They called nominations while I was overseas, when I got back the board was dead locked with 4 for one and 4 for another, I was placed in the position as 9th member of the board to give the casting vote, that was my first experience of very vicious politics within a board, I made a decision and made an enemy of a chap who was a great friend of mine all those years before, I will not mention his name naturally, we are still on nodding terms but not like we were in the earlier days. That’s how the Police Credit Union developed, now of course a chap named George Walters became our first manager, he moved on to the Queensland Teachers eventually. He was succeeded by Gordon Wiles, a chap named Cash took over for a short while and then the present manager Les Day, he was in the banking industry in Victoria, he was an excellent choice as a manager, and he is doing a wonderful job.

Going back to the Police Credit Union the various premises during your period there?

The Credit Union first operated at 269 Main Street Kangaroo Point, on the verandah this was a rather large house, when they appointed George Walters, they put one of the bedrooms aside for his office and the verandah was enclosed, we out grew that.
Then we moved across to Roma Street opposite the Transit Center now, they bought that building and operated out of that for quite some time. When we as a Police Union out grew 269 Main Street we bought that building from the Police, the Police Credit Union sold that building to us because they had bought a 3 story building at Coronation Drive on the river, then the Credit Union became too large for there, they bought land next door and now have a very big building at North Point, they own 3 or 4 floors of that and would you believe the Credit Union sold their old premises on Coronation Drive back to the Union, the Union now owns the building on Coronation Drive.

Is there anything else during the progress of the Police Credit Union in Queensland that you can remember?

In those early days with the assistance of those chaps on the board, John Yooue and George Bontoft and Ray Voltz they were the ones who were doing that early bookkeeping for me. After that Nevis Catstanza took over she had all those responsibilities and then we still pursued the method of cards until well into the 1970’s, with the expansion of the Credit Union the management toned up there operations and put themselves onto computers.

Were you on somebody else’s computer for a while?

I don’t know, I did not take part in any of that operation.

So, what more do you think you might know about the Police Credit Union that I have not asked you about?

I think the thing that impressed me most about the Police Credit Union is the good that it has done, the lifting of standards of living of the Police, the assistances to Police who got themselves into financial problems. I think they are geared now to become one of the leaders in the movement in Australia. They have been lucky in that they have had very good management, I would like to place on record my own appreciation of the work done by Ron Redmond who is currently the chairman of the board, he has been chairman for 8-9 years now, he was deputy commissioner of Police and the commissioner of Police in the Fitzgerald days he is retired and he still continues to show a very active involvement in the Credit Union. Les Day I have mentioned, there was Thor Naycon who was the financial controller who brought a great deal of stability to our early accounting systems. Don Van Neagle was in charge of the lending, they run their own insurance area which is the province of Graham Murry

We need to get to Queensland League business and the matter of central banking, were you involved in that in Queensland?

I was established as a member of the board. With the development of the League, I was president of the League as I have recorded and I was followed by Jack Ross as president, in Jack Ross’s time that would be about 1969 onwards that the structure of the League was changed dramatically, Godfrey Stevens became manager of the League the first paid member of the League, he established several of the arms of the Credit Union movement. One particular fund which he strongly recommended was the stabilisation fund, now that was for the purpose of rectifying any deficiencies which might occur in the financial structure of the League.

Was that American?

That was an American system and those of us who had seen it operating in America realised very quickly that it was a must. The New South Welshmen who were over there knew about it and Godfrey had seen it operating in 1967, he recommended it strongly. Mind you in the co-operatives acts in Queensland at that time was provision that liquidity had to be established and maintained in the area of movement of money. That of course became known then as the stabilisation fund. Out of that flowed another request for the establishment of the central banking system, Godfrey established that and set the guide lines under the direction from the League board, that was to provide a sinking fund for Credit Unions who needed an input of money for varying purposes at varying times. The Central paid a dividend return to the Credit Unions who had sufficient money to put into the Credit Union at that time to generate additional finance for themselves. The Credit Unions who borrowed money from it paid a borrowing percentage; the operation became quite a valuable arm of the League.

Why were there two protection funds?

I’m not quite sure I can answer that correctly. My opinion of it was that it started off with a certain set of guide lines and with a certain set of interest rate returns and then when the guide lines were changed that would have had the effect of starting a second savings protection fund, that is as I understood it.

My understanding from other people is that, that is correct but there is one other element that you did not mention according to some others and that is that the first savings protection was running out of money and they couldn’t run the two together because as you said that was already generating interest that had to be paid to other people so they couldn’t put the first one into the second one but the first one was running out of capital, money to lend out, that’s why they started the second one because there were so many problems with different Credit Unions that were not viable.

That’s right, that would be the right answer.

Were you involved with any of the amalgamations of any that weren’t viable?

No I was not. My operations were clearly with the Police and with Bardon Parish as operational Credit Unions. The Credit Unions which amalgamated were really under the umbrella of the League at a time when I was no longer a member of the board. That would be in the middle to late 70’s and early 80’s.

What about Caratusuwonga that got amalgamated?

That became amalgamated by general consent simply because Caratusuwonga only had nine members and the Brisbane Catholic Credit Union had about 250 members, the Postal Technician Credit Union then sought to amalgamate and it was agreed to at a general meeting. Sunstate grew out of all that.

You weren’t involved with any of the ones that were amalgamated when they were in trouble?

No, and I couldn’t honestly give you any real input into the troubles that arose. I know there were certain court cases over embezzlements beyond that I don’t know anything.

I mentioned one of the famous barnies that happened in Queensland between Sunstate and Credit Union Australia and you stayed well clear of that, what about the famous teachers problems they had there, are you able to say anything about that at all?

No, but I can take you back a little bit further. I was a member of the Queensland League board which was sacked, the 15 man board was sacked at a general meeting. Have you heard about that? It developed from Len Hedger who was president of the League at the time. Len could give you the full information, but I will tell you what I know. There was some friction between Furness and Hedger, Furness was the manager of Queensland Credit Union League, there were personality clashes and certain members of the League board sided with Hedger and certain ones who sided with Furness, in those particular years whilst I was still a member of the League board and would attend meetings I was also required to travel the state of Queensland and I did for 23 consecutive years as a Police Union secretary so I would be out of town, and missing much of the internal problems which rose from time to time. The question of a confrontation then arose between Hedger and Furness, this happened at a meeting when I was in Cairns, when I arrived in Brisbane I heard that the league board had suspended Furness from his position as general manager. After hearing Furness the decision was to be ratified at the meeting of the next League board which I attended. There was a clear split in the board, there were 15 members of the board, there were 10 supporting the president Hedger and there were 4 who were anti Hedger who were supporting Furness. Clearly the full board did not know all of the reasons behind what went on, I certainly didn’t. The board then made a decision of confirmation of this particular action taken by the League after hearing Furness. Furness conducted a very good defense for himself, but the League board made a decision then to uphold the decision to sack Furness. I was present but I did not vote, I was not privy to the personal clashes. Those 4 members of the board who were supporters of Furness no doubt assisted by Furness and I think some members close to the action called a special general meeting of the League at which every Credit Union was invited and every Credit Union was briefed on the qualifications of Furness, he had a good record and I was a good friend of his, they took a decision to sack the League board, I of course got the chop with the whole board, I re-submitted my name and whilst I am not privy to the actual count they tell me I finished in number 16 position. I was disappointed to be thrown off the League board. I was off the board for 12 months, during that time I concentrated on my work with the Police and the Bardon Parish Credit Union, after 12 months I reappeared at the Queensland Credit Union League annual general meeting and I was re-appointed onto the board. I then served another 12 months on that board and then resigned because of my heavy involvement in other areas not in the Credit Union movement.

Was Garth Furness re-appointed as manager after this change of board?

Yes, he was appointed and I was on the League board whilst Garth was League manager from then until I retired, he carried on for 2 or 3 years after I retired. I feel that you are going to ask me about continuing problems within the League structure but I am sorry that I cannot help further.

You were friendly with a lot of the Queensland Teachers people, Jack Ross
was a friend was he not?

Yes, I was very friendly with Jack Ross and Lloyd Hawkins. Lloyd as a young fellow came into the Credit Union movement, he was a prodigy of Jack Ross and Harold Marsh. I can’t recall any enemies.

Did you hear at all about the internal problems between Lloyd Hawkins and Harold Marsh when Lloyd became general manager of Queensland Teachers and Mrs Marsh continued on as office manager?

That is true, I can’t assist you with anything there, if you were interviewing my daughter she may have been able to fill you in with information from the members’ point of view. There were problems brought about by personality clashes I would think. The history of it of course was that it was a very nasty meeting which went until 3 a.m. That was when the big bust occurred, Harold Marsh and all the Marsh clique were expunged from their positions of power.

It sounds rather unfortunate because I understand from Lloyd Hawkins that Mrs. Marsh was a very efficient office manager, but he wanted to change things when he became General Manager. The business of his sacking was another thing.

Yes I new Mrs. Marsh she is very competent and a nice woman to talk to and knew her business well. I am not able to tell you any internal problems which may have gone on or any changes of policies which flowed from the changes of positions.

Did you become involved with Credit Union 24 the first A.T.M’s which were put in the Teachers organisation in Queensland?

No, the A.T.M’s were used by the Queensland Police Credit Union as its outlet for money, I had no adverse comments about the functioning of them.

Did any problems arise from the fact that they were not on line?

I cannot assist you there.

They were just internal weren’t they, a record of transactions during 24 hours and they used to take the tape out and process it?

That’s correct that is how it happened.

You could imagine that there might have been a few problems with that?

Well computers have an unfortunate position of not being reliable in certain circumstances.

But one can imagine that there might have been a slip between the cup and the lip so to speak, the account at the Credit Union and the tape which remains in the machine for 24 hours, if somebody set out to defraud those people of the Credit Union I would think it would not have been too hard?

Well I am not an expert on that field of endeavor. I appreciate human error and I know a little of human activities in the embezzlement area and can appreciate that certain chances do arise in situations like that.

Maybe they weren’t operational long enough for people to get wise about it?

That would probably be the answer to that.

Does that cover your involvement with the League or what you know about the League?

My involvement with the League was from its embryonic days when there were four Credit Unions operating in Queensland and we had to plead with people to go on the League board, it was another chore you had to devote time to it. There were not enough hours in the day to do the things that had to be done, and efficiency does fall where pressure is applied.

We haven’t covered your whole experience with A.F.C.U.L. What about the various annual meetings that you attended? You attended the very first one which was in Sydney where was the second one in 1967.

I think that also was in Sydney, we then moved to Warburton in Victoria and had some meetings there over different years. There were a lot of internal problems in some of the organisations. In the Queensland situation we had Jack Ross who followed me as President of the League and Bill Robson followed him, at that time I was representing the Queensland Credit Union movement in the area of Vice-President of A.F.C.U.L. in 1968 I was secretary treasurer of A.F.C.U.L. I then became vice-president.

Who replaced you as secretary?

Dermot Ryan.

And who replaced him?

Dermot Ryan was followed by, oh!

Did he stay there until he became Chief Executive Officer?

He became Chief Executive Officer by force of time.

Les Robinson?

Les was secretary of the New South Wales Credit Union League.

He was also secretary of the foundation at the beginning.

Yes that’s right, but he was not secretary of A.F.C.U.L. We had some problems in Queensland and at that time I was Vice- President of A.F.C.U.L. and I was the first Queensland representative on the Queensland Co-operative Advisory Council to Government it was a new position in the Co-operative field and we in the Credit Union movement sought and gained a position and I was President of the League and was appointed. During Jack Robson’s Presidency of the League, I still retained the position on the Advisory Council assisting Government, we met with Government ministers and heads of departments respect in of the co-operative field. When Robson became the President succeeding Jack Ryan he sought all power and had the numbers to oust me from the position of Advisory Council and he took that position himself. But he still wasn’t on A.F.C.U.L., he was Queensland delegate along with Harold Marsh to a meeting in Warburton when various positions on A.F.C.U.L. were voted for. I contested a position of vice-president of A.F.C.U.L. I was approached by Robson to run for President in opposition to Graham Benson. Benson in my view was doing a good job, he was a member of World Council at the time. He was attending overseas meetings and so on and I could see no point in the effort by me to become the President of the whole movement and quite candidly I could not afford the time. All of my positions in the Credit Union movement were unpaid and I was depending upon my industrial work as secretary of the Police Union to maintain my family. Well a vote was taken, when I declined incidentally Robson approached to run against Benson, I said I was going to run for the position of Senior Vice which I should have got and I was supported by New South Wales in that position.

Do you remember what year that was?

I cannot recall the year but it was a Warburton year. Anyway, I contested the position and I did not get the votes from my two co-delegates from Queensland.

Who were?

Harold Marsh and Bill Robson. That was the most amazing thing in my whole Industrial come Credit Union career, I didn’t contest any of those positions again. I felt that I had done my work for the Credit Union movement and I gradually stepped back.

Can you remember how Cliff Jury managed to become President of A.F.C.U.L.?

Cliff was a late comer to the Credit Union movement, he was personal officer at Mount Isa mines and he became the President of the Queensland Credit Union League, very quickly he became the Queensland representative at the A.F.C.U.L. meeting and became the chairman.

Yes, but how did this come about? It was the same year incidentally, was he a compromise candidate of some description?

You may well have guessed the right word to use, a very able fellow and he was one of the 15 of the League board of who was dismissed with me.

Everybody seems to have liked him and thought he was very good at his work.

He was, I don’t know that he set the teams on fire with Credit Union involvement other than the positions that he held. I don’t think he visited any overseas Credit Unions and I don’t know that he started any Credit Unions in Australia. I am happy to say that I started 9 so I became a gold founders member of the Credit Union movement which is an American organization.

Were you at Woollongong the year that Stan Arniel came to the door and got turned away from the conference?

I was yes, at that particular conference. That was my last year with A.F.C.U.L. as a member of their board. He was turned away and he stayed in a Motel not far from the scene. I went along and had quite a long talk with Stan at that particular Motel, I had nothing to hide or nothing to gain from any conversations with any of these people. I learnt a little about both sides of the story. I think that Stan was a very forthright fellow, he probably made a lot more enemies than he made friends because of his rather forthright stand. I admired him and still do, I think he was a great loss to the Credit Union movement. It should have been better handled, there were very poor public relations operating in those days and I think had the Arneil’s and the Ryan’s and a few more of them been hauled together in a room and said now settle your differences, that would have been the answer to the problem.

It would have taken somebody like the Queen to do it. Wouldn’t it?

Well, they were both very forthright fellows, but I suppose we all have our faults, I can appreciate the tremendous value each of them gave the movement.

Were you at the Canberra A.F.C.U.L. annual meeting where it was Dermot Ryan’s farewell?

I wasn’t at that meeting. Feelings ran high in parts of the Credit Union movement, the Credit Union developers and managers became potentates in their own fields, they had their own managers. I inadvertently walked into that Canberra meeting, I thought it was a committee meeting and being very keen I just wandered in to listen and I was told to get out, it was a managers’ meeting. I felt very insulted with those chaps ordering me out and not one of them had any senior experience to me in the Credit Union movement. They didn’t know the basics of the movement and the philosophies.

What year was that, was that Dermot Ryan’s time or Peter Timmins time, was it an A.F.C.U.L. meeting?

It was at an A.F.C.U.L. meeting at which the managers had a separate meeting. It was in Dermot Ryan’s time, the fellow who tossed me out he was the chairman, he was a manager of the Public Service Credit Union, the Canberra Credit Union, Shroder was his name.

Was Jack White there?

No, Jack was the secretary of A.F.C.U.L. because of his base being in Canberra, it was necessary for us to have a lobbying point, that is why Jack was appointed and maintained that position. The Executive Officer the real functioning person was Dermot.

I know Dermot retired through ill health, but he certainly lost his influence quite a lot before that even in his own state. Did he lose influence in Queensland?

No never, he was always accepted as being a principal of the Credit Union movement, he was a very close friend of mine from 1965 onwards and right to his death. I stayed at his home and he would always visit me when he came to Brisbane.

Yes, he had a lot of friends that felt he had gone past what he should in the movement.

Yes, Dermot made decisions and then expected his friends to stand by him and some of those decisions may well have been incorrect decisions, I am quite honest when I say that, but any incorrect decisions that Dermot made were extremely rare, so rare that I cannot even give you an instance where I would consciously have argued against a decision he made. Now I am talking of a state involvement not a local scene involvement where it is quite conceivable that he would have ruffled the feathers of the Credit Union operators in New South Wales. He certainly didn’t have any enemies in Queensland.

During the time that Dermot Ryan was Chief Executive Officer and he was lobbying against Barton as member for Banks to get the taxation exemption in a political way. Did you come across him during his involvement in that matter?

No, I didn’t discuss those things with him, I was told the results of them.

Were you involved in any of the lobbying from the end of Queensland?

With Dermot I ate some sandwiches on the steps of King Hall in Canberra when we really lobbied the whole of the Government. I know we had a very long meeting with the late Sir Lionel Murphy when he was shadow attorney general, that would have been in the early Fraser period. Going back to those situations where we had a very informative interview with Gough Whitlam and Bill Hayden, see Hayden was the shadow treasurer in those earlier days. My association with Bill Hayden goes right back to 1948 when he was a young Police officer and a student of mine in the classes I conducted.

That is very interesting. But you were missing when you were really needed when they went on a delegation in the early days. I believe it was Dame Rankin, you weren’t there and they had to say Jack Coin had represented Queensland for football.

That is another occasion when I would have been out in the state. I never liked to be absent from any meetings. I did have meetings with Dame Rankin, she lived in Toowong, we both knew each other. It’s pretty difficult when you are to be addressing Police in Mount Isa and I would be out for a fortnight at a time to conserve expenses. I also missed some Canberra interviews with different people on the basis of the cost structure, the expenses were very telling in those days. I know my own Queensland Police Credit Union straight out donated $1,000 to A.F.C.U.L. just to keep me on the road. I used that to get to meetings in Sydney and that type of thing. My Police Union was very good to me so was the Credit Union they picked up the tab.

There is one area that we have not covered yet, that is chapters in Queensland?

Chapters didn’t function too well in Queensland we had one chapter that’s all, called the Charlie Compton Chapter. Chapters were for the purpose of localising and getting local groups together on different planned topics, they never took off in Queensland, so I cannot assist you there. Chapters were quite a big thing in New South Wales. New South Wales were a very big organisation compared to Queensland.

We are coming to the end of the interview now and what I wanted ask you have you got any regrets about your involvement in the Credit Union movement?

Oh certainly not! I think it is interesting in thinking back I came into the Credit Union movement quite involuntarily I was pressured into it. I was the delegate at that particular conference and because of that I had to put up something that I didn’t know a thing about. and then when I had the opportunity of doing that nuclear school in Mount Macedon I was quite happy to be released from the program, when I came back the problem had been half started and I had to do the solving of it later on, that is how I became an unwilling member of the Credit Union movement. I got to like it very much. I could see that all its philosophies were all that I had subsequently read about and I could see its potential for doing an enormous amount of good.

You put in an awful lot of volunteer time with the Credit Union movement over the years, has this ever disrupted your family life or your health?

No, it hasn’t, going back from 1964 when I became involved from a physical point of view that is 27 years, I never regretted it. I have met some wonderful friends in the Credit Union movement and some dedicated people, one learns a lot from that sort of experience. My family has been very supportive of my activities. I looked upon the Credit Union activity as a balance between the heavy industrial representation that I had to make before the industrial commissions, my involvement with the Credit Union philosophy and Credit Union activity was an outlet and I did appreciate that.

Is there anything else that I should have asked you that I haven’t?

Well, I think over the two hours you have certainly put the wringer through me. I would like to put on record though I consider the potential with the Credit Union movement is growing all the time, it has changed a lot from the early days, strayed a little away from the philosophies, a matter that I am always mindful of but I think that in the course of time Credit Unions must take its very important and deserved position at the head of the financial organisations throughout the world.

Well thank you very much Mr. Merv Callaghan.

Thank you very much Richard.