ANSWCU 8 : 19 APRIL 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH JOCK DUNN WHO WAS INVOLVED NOT ONLY WITH THE MACQUARIE CREDIT UNION BUT ALSO WITH THE ASSOCIATION OF NEW SOUTH WALES CREDIT UNIONS
I will ask you, Mr Dunn, where were you born and when?
JD: I was born in Mudgee, New South Wales in 1924.
What do you remember about Mudgee in those days, did you grow up there?
JD: Yes. I was there until I left school to start an apprenticeship in Sydney, so Mudgee was my home town. It is a reasonable size town, it has expanded a bit now of course. They were happy times in those days.
What did your father do?
JD: He was a stock and station agent when he got to Mudgee, he was a grazier before that, farming grazier down in the Bylong-Rylstone area, Forbes and so on. Then he went to Mudgee to run the stock and station agency and that is what he was in my lifetime.
Where did you go to school? Public school was it?
JD: In Mudgee. Yes public school, I did the Intermediate Certificate there before I left.
Which one was, that or was there only one?
JD: Yes, there was the infants of course which I went to originally, then to the Mudgee High. There was only one there.
What did you like and dislike at school?
JD: I suppose something that I disliked until later in life, as is usual or it seemed to be the thing then, I didn’t like history very much, although I did do history of course, and Latin and French. But history is one of those things that you really don’t get interested in until after you leave school or become a bit older. I didn’t like history. But I played tennis at school and hockey occasionally. I didn’t play football or cricket. But school was a happy time really.
What was the influence you think you got from your father?
JD: I don’t know. Possibly being a family man, he looked after his family and we were a big family, eight children and I was the only son. We were always a close family, we get together and have happy times. Of course in those days too you used to create your own entertainment. So family life was family life.
Now what about your mother, what influence do you think you got from her?
JD: Probably the influence of thinking seriously of going into the Church at one stage when I was about sixteen or seventeen, but the call wasn’t strong enough and I didn’t go into the Church. So she was a wonderful mother because I suppose she controlled the eight of us and my sisters and myself can recall that in all her lifetime she never raised her voice to us and yet we did as we were told and that sort of thing, stuck with one another. So the influence was very strong there.
The school influence, what influence there? Any of the teachers, did they have an influence on you?
JD: Yes. More particularly the science teacher who was very active in the Scout Movement and I ended up in the Scout Movement too. I became one of the Patrol Leaders in the Scout Movement. So that influence flowed from this particular science teacher, who is still alive incidentally. We have had several school reunions that we’ve been to over in Mudgee. Great to see them all.
Lots of them alive?
JD: Not a lot of the teachers, no, but he was still there. My old Latin teacher and French teacher, they’ve gone. A lot of people there of course that I knew. It was very well attended. We had people from every State in Australia there at this particular reunion, which sort of got me interested. They have just had a family reunion down in Victoria, just got back from that.
Now where did you go for your apprenticeship?
JD: Sydney with Amalgamated Wireless Australasia as it was known then, in Parramatta Road. Of course the War was on then too when I started.
Was that your first job was it?
JD: Yes.
Where did you get your technical training?
JD: Sydney Tech, Ultimo.
What was it like then, what was it like at Tech?
JD: Well it was all at night time and always done in your own time of course, entirely different from what it is now. We used to do up to five nights a week after work. You didn’t get any time off from your work to go to tech.
What was your apprenticeship?
JD: Electrical fitting.
So how long did it take to complete that?
JD: It was five years then.
In the War as well, once you were there they wouldn’t let you go?
JD: No, that was the finish of that, it was hopeless trying to get out of that. There were moves made through various friends to try and get a release to get into the airforce, but that didn’t happen.
Who encouraged you to try for an electrical fitting apprenticeship?
JD: Well I suppose ever since I could crawl I was interested in mechanical things, having dismantled mother’s gold watch when I was about three so they tell me. I can sort of vaguely remember sitting on the front steps with bits of it. Of course it was never re-assembled. I started in the early days mucking around with radios as a hobby, the old crystal sets and this sort of thing, building stuff. It progressed from there to the electrical side of it, more so that the mechanical, although I have always been interested in mechanical. But I got into the electrical and mum and dad got me into an electrical apprenticeship.
Was it a wrench coming to Sydney? Was it the first time you had left home?
JD: Yes it was. Because of the family being so close I suppose and I had never been away from home, I had to board in Sydney, I really used to suffer from homesickness.
Where did you board?
JD: In Ashfield and Burwood and Strathfield, that area.
So reasonably close to work?
JD: Yes.
What were they like, the places you boarded?
JD: It was all right. Plain food, I suppose and that is where I learned to like all my vegetables. When I was home I suppose I only used to eat one or two vegetables, peas and beans.
They didn’t give you much meat at the boarding places?
JD: No, it wasn’t too bad, but you got to appreciate your cabbage and your spinach and anything else that was put in front of you or you went hungry.
You had a sort of healthy attitude to food when you were a kid, in that case.
JD: Yes, more so in later years though. I used to be a sweet-tooth in those days and it is only about four or five years ago that I gave up sugar.
What did you do for recreation when you were a child in Mudgee?
JD: Tennis and bike riding and music, to a lesser extent, in the sense that we used to go to various people’s places, friends of the family, and you would have a sing around the piano after your weekend of tennis and this sort of thing. From that through the influence of fellow apprentices at AWA I got into serious music and became interested in classical music.
Did you ever get around to playing?
JD: No, I didn’t it was just purely an interest in listening which I still have of course, we have quite a collection and a hi-fi outfit now. That is where that finished up.
Do you think you got that from your mother at all, was she interested in music?
JD: Yes, more so than dad. Dad used to sing, but mother was the influence of the music. She used to play the piano and paint.
So did you stay at AWA after your apprenticeship?
JD: For a while, but then I went into what was then the technical side of PMG and ended up in Bathurst there in a job with Telecom, the technicians anyway. From there I went back into the electrical things at a factory in Orange. I was an electrician there for Amco for a while, or Email. From that I went into local government where I finished up.
What do you mean?
JD: I came into local government in a little village, Geurie, and then when into Wellington when the electrical side of it was amalgamated and became the Wellington Shire Council. From there, with Wellington Shire Council, I became an Assistant Electrical Engineer and ended up with Macquarie Electricity people in Dubbo after it was amalgamated and became a County.
At what stage did you get married?
JD: 1950.
Where were you then?
JD: I was at Geurie, then we moved to Wellington when the Wellington Shire took over the electrical part as part of the amalgamation there. We lived in Wellington for a few years, then eventually transferred to Dubbo.
Did you miss Mudgee or had you got over it by that time?
JD: No, I suppose until I was married, yes, I always used to go back there. I was always back to there, never went anywhere else for holidays or a break of any sort, always went home, until I was married. We went on holidays then of course as a family.
When did you first hear of credit unions?
JD: Not until I was in Dubbo, from the chap Brian Weiley, who you will interview eventually, who became the first Chairman of this credit union, the Macquarie Credit Union. He got it started and was the first Chairman of the credit union. I will give you his address and everything later.
He was the first Chairman. He wasn’t involved with the Association was he?
JD: Not the Association, no.
Who followed him, do you know, was it George McCready?
JD: Yes, I think it was.
Who first asked you to go on the Inaugural Board?
JD: Brian Weiley, he was the one who knew of credit unions.
Where from, do you know?
JD: No, I don’t. He was very involved in the Labor Movement I know, so whether it was through that or through friends.
Was he involved in the unions at all?
JD: Yes.
Well he might have got it through that. Which union?
JD: Oh, the Electrical Trades Union.
Well they were involved to some extent, but the Musical Employees Union was more involved.
JD: Brian got a few of us, asked a few of us to go along to this meeting and that it where it all started. The initial meeting, of course, was with Stan Arneil.
Where was it held?
JD: That was in the County Council building down in Macquarie Street in those days, about 1964 that meeting. It formed after that.
Do you remember that meeting?
JD: Yes I do, because I was very impressed by Stan Arneil. He really was enthusiastic and I think he enthused, passed that enthusiasm on to a lot of us to get the credit union started and what it was all about. There is no doubt about it that we can see now, looking back, just how well the credit union movement here in this area helped all our people.
Do you remember what he said at that meeting? Or was it just a general impression?
JD: More of a general impression now, at this stage of the game. He gave us the history of credit unions.
That was the first time you had met Stan Arneil at that meeting?
JD: Yes.
What was your impression?
JD: Well my impression of him was of, the only way you can describe it, his total dedication to the credit union movement and would it could do perhaps in the future. I think he did he have a lot of foresight that he passed on to us in this enthusiasm and I don’t think any of us hesitated in going ahead and founding the credit union and we went from strength to strength after we had done so. It is only small, admittedly, even now we only have 11,000-odd members, but just the same it was very strong and the employees of the County Council and other organisations that we covered accepted it very readily.
Did you cover these organisations straight away or was that later?
JD: No, most of them were covered within a short period of time. The hospitals for instance and the shires, we took in the shires straight away which were within the County Council boundaries. That was a natural progression to do that. We used to have meetings with employees out there at night time. We would go to Nyngan for instance or Cobar and have meetings with employees and tell them all about it and it was well accepted. It just went from strength to strength and we’ve never looked back.
Do you remember whether there was any dissension about whether you would join other people up or did the Registrar accept it? Whose suggestion was it that you should join up with a number of the other organisations in the area rather than just be on your own?
JD: I don’t know that that was ever put to us.
Did the Registrar come to the Inaugural Meeting, or did he send somebody? Registrar of Co-operatives?
JD: I don’t remember. It doesn’t say anything there about it. I don’t think he did.
Of course, Stan Arneil was the Registry’s Development Officer at that time. This is 1964 isn’t it. He was Development Officer for the Registry of Credit Unions at that time.
JD: I don’t think we were ever at the stage where it was suggested that we amalgamate with others. During part of the credit union’s lifetime we have looked at amalgamating with others of our own accord.
But who decided who you would have in?
JD: Well at one stage we were looking at our Bond. Apart from the Bond which we had kept adding to, we did look at having the Postel Credit Union with us because they were technical people and it was talked about even with the Orana Credit Union at one stage, but just purely as a strengthening of the whole area of credit unions. We weren’t in any trouble or didn’t have to amalgamate. It wasn’t promulgated by the Registrar anyway. It was just simply of our own accord that we decided to do this. But this hasn’t happened, we are still on our own.
So you became Chairman here, when?
JD: I followed George McCready in 1969, we will have to check that date. There was a merger there of course.
Dubbo Municipal Employees Credit Union.
JD: Yes, that came back to us of course.
Came back to you?
JD: Well, we looked at that and asked them would they like to join us because we were at the stage, again that wasn’t done through the Registrar, it was done through the Registrar naturally, but it wasn’t started by the Registrar or they didn’t ask us to do it. We approached them because we were in a healthier position and could offer bigger loans and so on to our members and by amalgamating with them that obviously was going to strengthen our position and strengthen their position. So we put it to their members and they were all agreed, and there was no trouble at all, that they would come in with us. That was another strength added to the Macquarie Credit Union and we have members from Dubbo City Council who have always been on the Board. So it wasn’t a take-over in that sense that some people perhaps thought it was. It was never that.
George McCready, do you remember him becoming involved with the Association, with the League as it was in those days?
JD: Yes, he was involved. I followed him.
Of course you can’t speak for him, but do you remember why he got involved, or how he got involved?
JD: I think he just wanted to see the country credit unions represented, I suppose. I suppose it followed from an Annual General Meeting that we all go to, which was the way I got involved with it. You could see at the Annual General Meeting that maybe you could contribute something to the movement. Certainly I was enthusiastic about getting on to the Board down there because I felt that I could represent true country credit unions rather than the Newcastle and Wollongong credit unions who were considered country credit unions. I got into that because I thought I was really a country credit union.
When you got in, did you put up or did somebody else put you up for the Association?
JD: Yes, it was suggested.
By who?
JD: By the Macquarie Credit Union. This credit union nominated me both times that I was on the Board.
The first time when you were on in 1977, what were the issues then?
JD: Yes, it was the League. Well, the issues would have been to keep credit unions in the rails. Really the issues as I saw them didn’t change much in the two times I was on the Board down in Sydney. It was always necessary to try and guide credit unions in their operations and particularly to foster the original credit union concept and philosophy.
Which was, from your point of view?
JD: Work for your members, rather than become a big financial institution. That was always my push, as far as I was concerned.
Not for profit.
JD: Yes, exactly.
I suppose it is a bit early in our talk to start on this, but I suppose it is important in some respects, do you think the philosophy has changed? Do you think it has been given away?
JD: I don’t know that it has been given away so much, as it has had to change to meet the needs of the members. I think you can still cover that basic philosophy and operate on that basic philosophy. Even though the financial side of it seems to have changed and we are more, I suppose in my eyes, a financial institution than we used to be. In the sense that in the very early days you used to write off loans easier and this sort of thing and help people who were really in strife. That doesn’t seem to happen now of course. You operate on a sounder financial footing, if you look at it that way, and we do have profits or margins, isn’t that what they call them. So from that point of view our credit union has always tried to do the right thing and I think the members have appreciated it. That is why our membership, I think, is pretty loyal.
Has there ever been a push in this area to take you out into the general community and become a mutual community movement?
JD: No, because the Orana Credit Union was formed and they took over that role. So there was no need for us to go beyond our Bond really. Except that we have altered it. Originally, until quite recently, it was staff only; staff of the Macquarie Council, staff of the various shires, Nyngan Shire, Wellington Shire and so on in the area within the County Council district, and hospitals. But then, quite recently, the Bond was changed to take in family of members. So we have progressed, if you like, to that extent, we have altered the Bond to that extent.
Well that was allowed in 1969 with the Act, family membership.
JD: Yes it was done before I left the Board here, so that has only been the last three or four years.
End Tape 1A: 3360 Words: 1 hour 10 minutes.
ANSWCU 8 : 19 APRIL 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH JOCK DUNN
During the time of the late 1970s when you were first on the Association Board, did you have much to do with the arrangements that were put in place with the Registrar, well he was pushing with a number of other people, for amalgamations? Were there decisions taken while you was on the Board?
JD: Yes, I remember the time. Yes there were and policies established and this sort of thing. That was as far as I was involved, I wasn’t involved directly. It was some of the Sydney Directors, or some of the Directors who lived in Sydney, were obviously the ones who were on a committee or anything like that to deal with the Registrar. Other than that my only involvement was with policies discussed and so on on the Board. Certainly they were discussed in great detail, a lot of time was involved with them.
Who was Chairman at that time?
JD: I think we had better look that up too.
You must remember from a personality point of view, surely. Bill Howe, right the way through that period? No Kevin Bain was Chairman first.
JD: Kevin Bain then Bill Howe. I can remember Kevin very well. He was a good Chairman and very enthusiastic about the movement of course. I think most of the people who got to the Board were enthusiastic of course, otherwise they wouldn’t have been prepared to give so much time to it. As far as the policies were concerned with dealing with the Registrar for amalgamations and so on, they were discussed at Board level and the committees dealt with them and dealt with the Registrar. It was really very interesting, I found, the Board. When I first was proposed for it I thought oh well, I hoped I could contribute something, but you do providing you join in the discussions and have your say and contribute that way.
Tell me what were the mechanics of you getting down to a Board meeting?
JD: Well we were fortunate that we had a good air service here then. I used to fly down about lunch time on the day of the meeting, or sometimes had to be in the mornings because the plane wouldn’t be there in time for the meeting in the afternoon say six o’clock or the various times that they started. Stay overnight and plane back to Dubbo on Saturday morning. I used to leave my car out at the airport in Dubbo. It wasn’t inconvenient. Really I suppose I had an easier time of getting there than somebody from say Newcastle or Wollongong, perhaps. Mine was more convenient. I had a short drive here to the airport, step on to a plane, taxi out to the meeting and that was that.
You stayed out in that area overnight did you?
JD: No I used to come into town, into one of the motels in Oxford Street or whatever.
What was the arrangement, was that paid for by the Association?
JD: Oh yes.
So it wasn’t onerous. Didn’t worry your wife or anything like that?
JD: No, because of the convenience of getting there.
Was it only once a month?
JD: Yes. Occasionally you went down for special meetings, but not very often.
What about future directions-type meetings, did that happen later on?
JD: Yes. But then they was only ever one or two special meetings that needed an extra trip to Sydney.
So what were the issues generally? You didn’t cover them all you only started to cover the issues that were covered during your time on the Board.
JD: The directions of the credit union and amalgamations and occasionally there was one going bad. First of all we had to appoint a Manager, I was on the Board before Reg became General Manager, so that was an interesting period.
So who was the General Manager when you were there? It would have to be Les Robinson wouldn’t it?
JD: Les Robinson, yes, Les was there then.
Then Reg Elliott. How was that decided, can you remember?
JD: Yes. The Board tried to do it on its own first of all. Then we realised that because of the salary and things offered that we weren’t going to get anywhere or get the right person, so we had a firm of consultants who did the initial interviews and sorted things out. They presented Reg to us.
Which consultants were they?
JD: Their name? I couldn’t tell you. You would have to go to the records of the Association for that.
It was a departure to have somebody from outside the credit union as Manager.
JD: Yes it was, and that caused a lot of debate. Finally it was realised that we had to do this to have a person who had more experience. Because we could see the way credit unions had to go, or were going, the financial situations of the times, we could see we had to go outside the credit union movement to get a man with the experience we needed, a broad base. That turned out to be Reg Elliott.
Do you think it was wise, do you think it was wise to bring in the banking side of people?
JD: Yes I do. I am convinced that Reg Elliott was the right man for the job. He did a wonderful job.
You don’t think that was the departure that took credit unions into competition with banks?
JD: No, I didn’t see us as in competition with banks. I suppose we were because we had to look to our laurels and ended up having to offer services that kept us ahead of the bank. But when you look through it I suppose the services we offered were only ones that our members wanted and needed. It turned out that we could offer those services better than the banks could do anyway. I suppose there was talk of a bank, of course, at that stage.
Yes and that was earlier as well, in the 1960s. Incidentally, do you know Tom Kelly?
JD: Yes, very well.
Have you discussed with him about the co-operative bank?
JD: No. I met Tom on the Board, I think first.
On the Board of the Association in 1977?
JD: Or at a meeting of the Association, the Annual General Meeting, probably when I first met him.
Yes, he was 1962 and 1972 on the Association.
JD: Yes it would have been at an Association Annual General Meeting that I first met him.
So you didn’t know anything of the background of his pushing a co-operative bank? You don’t know anything about the controversy, disagreement, that he had with the Board of the Association, the League as it was then, over the issue of a co-operative bank?
JD: No, I don’t know that it was ever discussed.
Of course it was seven years earlier when it was being mooted. Did you take Quest newspaper here while it was operational, the Association newspaper, which was also run by Tom Kelly?
JD: Yes, we used to get it.
Thinking back to those days, do you remember any particular issues, for instance the insurance issue?
JD: A lot of the issues that were in the credit union movement didn’t really affect this credit union.
Who did you insure with here?
JD: Now that was CUMIS and the other group. We stayed with the Association, I think.
So they went to T&G and various others and then back again.
JD: Again, I would have to look the records up.
But you can’t remember any controversy here about insurance?
JD: Not really, that would have been at the Board level. The only controversy I would have heard would have been at Board meetings in Sydney.
I don’t mean that, I mean you stuck with the League, the Association? Some didn’t. Some either left the Association and so on.
JD: That is true, but we felt, or this credit union felt not necessarily through my influence, that we should stick with the League and help keep it strong.
You read the letters that Stan Arneil sent out to try and persuade other credit unions to continue to insure with CUMIS?
JD: Well that was during my time on the Board I think, about that time. They would have been through our Board meetings here.
But you decided that you wouldn’t.
JD: Yes. Can I refer you to our Minutes again I think for that, just to make sure what we did there.
You can’t remember any meetings where there were disagreements?
JD: No, I don’t think so.
For instance, you can’t remember that they replied to Stan Arneil’s letters. He put out a seven point letter I understand.
JD: I can only vaguely remember it now. I would have to go back to the Minutes to see what happened, or what we did about it.
So it wasn’t a controversy within the credit union here?
JD: Well, it would have been discussed very thoroughly at our Board meetings.
But you don’t remember an argument. That was what I was after. Some credit unions split down the middle.
JD: No. I can see that too, but no that didn’t happen here. The majority of our Board members were in agreement.
See there is one thing here. When the League decided that they would no longer have CUMIS and CUNA Mutual insure it, then some credit unions had active members on what is known as the Policy Holders’ Advisory Committee, I think, actually run by CUMIS, CUNA Mutual. Did you every have anybody who was anything to do with that committee?
JD: No.
That became the means whereby some credit unions insured directly with CUNA Mutual without going through the League. You don’t know anything about that? There were any credit unions around this area that decided to leave?
JD: No. No, I don’t think so.
They all stuck with the League?
JD: As far as I know, but I am not really sure.
Did you take the debt collection service that the League had set up, or did you operate yourself as a debt collection? Did you have any trouble at all with that?
JD: No. But when we started looking at our own we didn’t take that on because we thought it was a bit remote. Because our bad debt ratio was so low anyway, it was extremely low,, we had a local man do it. That is still the case.
So you didn’t really have many people outside your pay roll?
JD: No. There are some now of course, because of the family members. But at that time there was nobody outside the pay roll. Any body that left, their loans were usually paid up anyway or we transferred them perhaps, sometimes. Occasionally we would transfer them to another credit union, say they were going to the coast or Sydney, or somewhere like that. For a long time our debts were very, very low.
So can you remember any of the other issues? In your second period on the Association Board in 1980, 1981, 1982, by that time Bill Howe was Chairman, how was he different from Kevin Bain do you think in the way he operated?
JD: Well first of all Reg Elliott came into the movement, and Bill worked towards the nationalisation, if you like, spreading the movement through a national body as well as locally of course. He was very keen on that and he was on the national Board and so on. Bill was basically responsible, and of course Reg Elliott too to a great extent, they spread the movement to get things national, right across Australia so that we could have a bigger financial base. Reg Elliott worked towards that and Bill did a lot of work there. My recollection of Bill of course is that he was so completely dedicated to the credit union movement and he did a good job.
Did he get on well with Les Robinson, do you remember?
JD: Yes.
Do you remember Les Robinson? How did you get on with him?
JD: Yes, I remember Les very well. He was a very nice bloke.
What do you think was his major contribution during the period he was Manager, Secretary/Manager?
JD: Well, he was in at a time when things for those in the Association were difficult.
In what way?
JD: Well because they were expanding, trying to get more credit unions in and this sort of thing, to operate on a wider basis to cover more credit unions. I think Les had a battle on his hands at that stage.
Do you think he liked a battle?
JD: I don’t know whether he liked a battle or not, but it worried him. I think he put a lot of time, effort and worry into the Association Board, or the managing of the Association.
You knew Dermot Ryan, did you?
JD: Yes.
Well, in my view, everybody has said to me that there was a man who liked a battle.
JD: Yes, true. I think possibly Dermot might have been a thorn in Les’ side.
I think he got on well with him, I think they were always on the same side. In what way do you think Les Robinson was different, or Reg Elliott was different from Les Robinson as a manager of the Association, of the League?
JD: I think it was the broader base of his experience in banking would be the greatest difference. I am not sure of Les’ background.
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JD: Certainly Reg’s base, the broad base of his experience was in the top echelon of banking. He was the man that we finally chose and it turned out to be the right decision.
Were you involved with AFCUL at all, the Australian Federation?
JD: No. We used to hear about it of course. Bill was involved in it.
Of the personalities who were on the Board with you, how did Board meetings go, were there people who differed markedly in any sort of philosophical sense amongst the members of the Board?
JD: Some of them differed yes. But we usen’t to have any personality clashes. They were all, at that time, very enthusiastic in their own right. Although opinions weren’t always the same, there was no bitterness in difference of opinion.
What was the difference generally, philosophically?
JD: Well people used to discuss things and virtually agree to differ, I suppose. You would get an issue that you would have to vote on and this sort of thing and people voted the way they felt. Nobody was ever hounded into decisions through some extra strong personality. I think with the different personalities the Board remained strong because of it, because you got a broad base, I am using that expression a lot. We had a broad base of not only personalities but experience in the outside world, a broad base of Directors who brought all this knowledge to the Board. Naturally you had to have differences of opinion but I think it helped strengthen the Board. Everything, rather than being rubber-stamped, was always discussed well and thrashed out. I think that kept the Board strong, at least while I was there.
The background to the various Directors, did you have much to do with Brian Charlton at all?
JD: No, not really because being here in Dubbo the only Director who was perhaps similar to myself, in similar circumstances, was Bert Beaufoy from Tamworth. The two of us were very similar in the sense that his credit union was also County Council based and the two of us were representing country credit unions.
What about Beresford Calverley, did you have much to do with him?
JD: Only on the Board. I didn’t have anything to do with any of the others in between Board meetings, really. Unless of course there was a function, or the Annual General Meetings of course. Berry was an old-timer in the sense of being on the credit union. I always listened to what all of them had to say because of that difference of background.
Because of the similarity of background did you have anything to do with John Gormley other than the credit union?
JD: John Gormley of course, he was credit union-based as well. I perhaps got to know as well as Bert. I became friends with John and we used to perhaps tee-up together at conferences and something like that.
Tee-up together, did you perhaps used to go and play golf with him?
JD: No, I didn’t.
John was a very active, enthusiastic sort of fellow. What about Ken Miller?
JD: Well, I always admired Ken because of his devotion to the credit union movement and felt that to me he was always a powerful influence in the credit union movement. He devoted a lot of time to it. I think he had his finger on the pulse too, he could see which way things were going. He put a lot of energy into it and I think the credit union movement benefited from his time on the Board.
Peter Garrett as well, he was the Electrical Credit Union, he was on the County Council, the Illawarra County Council it was.
JD: Yes, perhaps a fellow traveller in that sense. When you look at it at that time there were four of us who had similar sympathies or outlooks being industry-based, electrical industry-based credit unions. I got to know Peter fairly well but I didn’t see so much of him. He started before me, I think.
Peter Garrett, we are talking about, he had only one go 1977 to 1981. Through the whole period, in fact he was on longer than you. The person who had two goes was John Gormley. Of course he was for many years on the Supervisory Committee as well. You were never on that, I suppose.
JD: No. It would have meant extra meetings.
The Supervisory Committee used to meet once a week.
JD: Yes. It wasn’t practical for a country one. I think Peter might have been on that for a while. Peter was also a country representative. He might not have been on the Supervisory Committee. Wollongong was looked on as a country rep. This was the thing that I was trying to do something about at one stage of the game, that was to have country representatives outside of Sydney, Newcastle and Wollongong, but I wasn’t there long enough to achieve that, it didn’t happen.
One of the issues I think we should discuss on the next tape is the business of the splits and re-unification of the Association which started to take place during your period on the Board. I noticed a meeting there at the end of 1980. Do you remember that one? It was an Annual General Meeting.
JD: Well that was where most of the argument took place, wasn’t it?
Well, I suppose it was. There was an attempt to re-unify.
JD: I think some of the stronger personalities triumphed there, probably.
Who?
JD: Well, Bill Howe, Ken Miller was very vocal.
On which side?
JD: That I don’t remember. I would have to look at the Minutes again. I can’t recall the details of those meetings. If I read them again of course I would.
Did anybody from the Southern and the Northern Associations attend those meetings?
JD: Oh yes, the Annual General Meeting.
End Tape 1B: 3273 Words: 1 hour
ANSWCU 9 : 19 APRIL 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH JOCK DUNN
I was asking about the various members of the Board, and the members and such like, and what about Beresford Calverley, he was an old-timer, how well did you know him?
JD: Well, only through the Board and meetings. I got to know him very well. I admired Berry because he always seemed to me to be quite a fountain of knowledge, one way or another, as far as credit unions were concerned. He seemed to be so totally devoted to them, not just enthusiastic but I suppose I can use the word devoted to the credit union movement. That is just the way he struck me.
Several people have told me, off the record so to speak, that he was upset when he was no longer on the Board.
JD: When he didn’t get voted back in. I personally felt that that was the finish of him. The only way I can see it is that he dropped his bundle after that. Because of his devotion to the movement and he felt that he could still contribute, he felt he was really just like an old person. When I got off the Board that didn’t worry me, I wasn’t voted in and that was that. But Berry took it totally personally as a personal affront, or whatever, and that was it, he just gave it away after that.
He died not long after.
JD: That is the way I see it, that he dropped his bundle because of that.
I haven’t asked anybody actually about the election of officers. Was there any formal campaign run between various candidates around the credit unions?
JD: Not that I know of, not that I am aware of. There could have been. Lobbying you mean?
Groups who might caucus and decide before hand. So who stood against Berry Calverley for instance?
JD: You would have to go back to the records for that, I wouldn’t remember.
It wasn’t obvious? I mean he stood for re-election and somebody else beat him.
JD: I can’t recall who.
The other ones who were on during your time, for instance Helen McIntyre left after that period. Did you know whether she stood, or whether she retired? She stood for quite some time.
JD: No, I think she was beaten at one election too. But she got back on again eventually, didn’t she?
What about Ken Miller?
JD: No, I don’t recall Ken being beaten. He retired from the Board.
He has retired several times.
JD: As I have mentioned before, I think he was always a strong personality on the Board.
He has retired from the Teachers’ Credit Union now. You were on the Board at the same time as him, was he involved in the start of the various computer technologies that were being evolved at the time you were on the Board. I know he is now Chairman of a number of those companies.
JD: Yes, he was involved in it. I think he had already pushed his credit union along and they were going that way with computers and so on. I think he was very involved.
What about you, what about your credit union?
JD: Well we could see the necessity for it and eventually, although we couldn’t afford our own at the time because of not enough members, we bought our services from the Orana Credit Union who had decided to go into it. After a few years of hiring, or leasing our services from them we then turned around and bought our own computer. This was just before I retired from the Board and that is the situation at the present time.
What about as far as the Association was concerned, were you involved in any of the decisions?
JD: Oh, only at Board level, yes.
Can you remember which ones they were?
JD: No, not in detail because it was a pretty complex affair. The Association’s computer cost a lot of money. There had to be a room built for it and all this sort of thing. It was all very interesting and always used to amaze me at the complexity of the whole set up and what was needed to house the computer and so on. I used to read up about it and do the best I could with questions and answers at the time to vote the right way to see that the Association went the right way.
Did you ever have any involvement with personal computers yourself?
JD: Only a slight use of them here at the County Council using the terminal, that is all. But I had read about them and knew the basics of them and so on.
I notice that for instance credit unions were right in on the ground floor as far as computers into financial institutions are concerned. I understand that the first one to actually do it was the Sydney Credit Union. Did you know that? Not to buy their own, they used a service, an overnight service, batch processing.
JD: Yes quite a few credit unions probably did after that, before the Association Board went into it.
Do you know anything about this history from the Association’s point of view about computerisation of credit unions generally, or of the Association itself?
JD: Well they were doing the computer, putting the service in when I was there.
Which one was that?
JD: That was the Association’s.
What brand was it, what make?
JD: I have an idea it was AWA, or they were changing to AWA, or something like that.
It was an AWA Realty was it?
JD: Realty, yes. I think they went to computer consultants because a lot of us didn’t know a lot about them of course, it was a pretty complex area. I think the Board had advice from various organisations. But I can’t remember their names. I don’t know that they employed anybody in particular, but they might have.
Ken Miller has always been very keen from a computer point of view, I know, still is.
JD: Yes. He was probably ahead of most of us and probably guided us a lot along the way that way, because of his own experience.
Do you remember anything about the decision to take in FCS?
JD: Yes. When those companies were formed, yes, Ken was involved in that too of course. They were all formative too at that stage. It was an interesting time on the Board for me because of that movement going on.
Do you remember the time when they were trying to decide which ATM to use?
JD: No, I think that was after, a bit later.
As a matter of fact, it must straddle the period you were on, because the fellow, I believe, I have forgotten his name, was in Queensland Teachers’ and he was trying to get everybody in in 1977.
JD: Yes. Queensland Teachers’ as you have mentioned, had an ATM. Certainly ATMs were talked about while I was there and several were in, but I don’t know what brand they were or who was involved in that.
Well the Association actually consolidated their system the following year after you left the Directorship. Incidentally, did you retire or were you being stood against?
JD: Yes, somebody stood against me. I think Wollongong got in.
Not Peter Garrett?
JD: No, somebody else. I have an idea it was Ken Byrne it could have been.
He was Berrima wasn’t he? Well he is now, anyway. I think he was Berrima before that.
JD: Yes, I think he stood and got in.
When you stood you weren’t really competing against the city representatives, is that right. You were competing for one or two country places? At that period there were two country places.
JD: There was a lot of talk at that time. As I said, I tried to get country representatives to be from the country rather than the Wollongong, Newcastle bit. But I think it has changed now to open voting. Everybody votes for the country reps, whereas only country credit unions voted for country reps. at one stage of the game.
Do you think this is a good idea, or do you think it is better the other way?
JD: Oh, no, I think everybody should vote, but they could still have separate country reps. just the same, but why not let everybody vote for them.
Were you in on the decision to have regional meetings?
JD: No. It must have been the early 1980s when the regional meetings were commenced and they proved to be a real winner, no doubt about that. I remember the first time that they took place the Annual General Meeting that occurred after that was so shortened because everybody had a better idea of what was going on and most of the discussion had taken place locally. It was crisper, the arguments were more or less cut and dried by that stage, and people didn’t have to get to the floor of the Annual General Meeting and talk for so long to get their point over. It was a wonderful move and shortened the Annual General Meeting up considerably.
Who do you think was the main person behind the inception of the first regional meetings?
JD: Might have been Bill Howe.
I think you might be right.
JD: Bill could see what was going on. There was so much floor time necessary we had to run over two days at the Annual General Meetings before the other business started. I think he twigged to the necessity getting discussion back at credit union level and then regional meeting level to let people really know what was going on. People were in the dark until they got to the Annual General Meeting.
Was there any connection between the proposal for regional meetings and the proposal for re-amalgamation? Would it be a case of the horse and carriage?
JD: I think it helped. But whether that was the ulterior motive beforehand or not, I don’t know. But certainly a lot more people became involved and knew what was going on within the credit union movement because of the regional meetings. It was the greatest thing that they did in my time of being involved with the credit union movement, creating those.
Did you go to any Schools?
JD: Oh yes, whenever I could.
Which ones? Where did you first go to a School?
JD: Again, I would have to go back to the records for that.
You can’t remember?
JD: No, not really.
Would you have gone to a Newport School?
JD: Yes. Newport was probably the first one, because apart from seminars I think that Newport might have been the first actual School we went too, as such. There are other seminars I have probably been involved with.
Where you ever at any Schools where Stan Arneil was?
JD: I would imagine so, but I can’t really recall now.
Graham Benson, Dermot Ryan?
JD: Yes. I am just trying to think of who else I knew looking at these pictures.
Were you at any Schools with Father Ganey?
JD: I’ve been to talks given by him, but I don’t know about Schools.
Was he a man that impressed you?
JD: Yes, he did. But I don’t think I ever met him at a School. Tom Kelly, I know. Helen McIntyre.
So what year do you think you would have gone to Newport?
JD: I will go through my records and find out, because I can’t recall at this stage.
Did you go overseas at all when you were in the credit union?
JD: Not with the credit union.
Did one nominate if one wanted to become a national delegate for the Association?
JD: Yes. You had to be nominated by somebody on the Board.
You were usually a Board member.
JD: Yes, but I didn’t try that.
Were you aware of George McCready going?
JD: Yes. George would know, but I don’t know whether we nominated him through to the Board from our credit union, or whether he was nominated back from the Board, I can’t recall.
You think you went to one Newport School first, but you don’t know what year. What other Schools did you go to?
JD: Salamander Bay on the north coast. I would have to go through the Minutes to dig those out for you, to get those. We used to have local meetings as well.
Did you have a Chapter around here?
JD: No, we never had a Chapter.
You did at one time, I think? Did you know for instance Owen Jones.
JD: I know of him.
But you don’t remember meeting him?
JD: No. I don’t know that we joined in a Chapter. No, I think the nearest thing we got was these regional meetings where we used to meet everybody. We had some of those here, some at Parkes, some at Orange. We used to put them on in different places. Lithgow. With regional meetings when they started we had Lithgow, Bathurst, Orange, Dubbo and Parkes as well as having one of the regional conferences here with Sydney reps. and Board reps.
There must have been a Chapter up here because I heard a story from John Gormley who said that Owen once missed the plane and he drove up here to Dubbo.
JD: I don’t know whether that was for a Chapter meeting or, as I say, for a regional meeting that they came to. I can’t recall us belonging to a Chapter. I know there was talk of it, but I don’t think it ever happened.
What about extensions of your Bond up here. Was that discussed at Association level at all, or not?
JD: Not necessarily. Through me do you mean? No. I probably could have asked for advice on it. Which way to go, what we should do.
Were you involved with the Institute of Credit Union Directors at all?
JD: No, but we joined. John Gormley was the mainstay of that I think.
At that time, because he only went for one year.
JD: Yes, that’s right. But he has been fairly active in it since I think.
To some extent. He had definite ideas about what he wanted to do and I think he went on for one year. You don’t remember that?
JD: No. We joined but I don’t think we have been to meetings.
They had a meeting up here.
JD: Yes, they have had meetings here.
Where did you go to meetings? Were you an officer of the Institute?
JD: No.
What about the Institute of Credit Union Managers?
JD: Well Kevin used to go, our Manager. We felt that we should be involved in the credit union management thing, so we used to get Kevin to go.
Looking at the services. I have asked you about the insurance and you didn’t really know a lot about it, the electronic banking, the establishment of that, that was right in the period when you were involved at Association level, can you remember anything about that? Who put the different viewpoints?
JD: Yes, as to what they should do with ATMs and this sort of thing and where they should be established and so on. Then again, on that Ken Miller was fairly influential. We weren’t involved. This credit union wasn’t involved because it was too expensive and just out of our league to do anything like this. We just couldn’t do it.
What about the things that came from that. After all electronic banking is not just ATMs is it, there is a lot more to it than that.
JD: Yes. But there again we weren’t involved. By the time it started to get involved with EFTPOS and these sort of things, I was out of the Board by then.
What about the central banking system?
JD: Yes, it was established. Reg Elliott established that.
Les Robinson established it at the League.
JD: But Reg developed it, I suppose would be a better term. It certainly expanded after that. It was good for the credit union movement.
Did you use the Supply Service and that sort of thing, that was already around.
JD: Yes, that was there and we used to push that at the Annual General Meetings and that sort of thing.
I have already asked you about the collection service, you didn’t use that, you didn’t think it was appropriate. What about some of the investments services that have come about now?
JD: Well in this credit union we have invested with the Association.
Is that Bridges?
JD: No, before Bridges. We felt at that time there were credit unions who were investing outside the movement. Perhaps because I had been involved on the Board and I felt that we shouldn’t go outside the movement we should keep our funds within the movement, this credit union did.
The other thing which we haven’t discussed, that I have passed by I think, is the matter of the Stabilisation Fund that started, then the Savings Protection Fund and then it became the Reserve Fund. Now were you involved during that period at all?
JD: Yes, well it was started then.
Were you aware at the Annual General Meetings of the arguments of its formation in the first place. Dermot Ryan and the rest of the Board disagreed over this.
JD: Yes there were some heated arguments about it. I think most of the argument of course took place at the Annual General Meeting and some bitterness crept in there.
Between whom?
JD: There were a couple of factions, I think.
What were the issues though, or was it personalities?
JD: I really felt that it was a bit personalities to a certain extent.
Which personalities?
JD: Well Dermot was one of them. Eventually it took off. People could see that because of some credit unions not holding their own in the financial sense and the need to establish something of this nature, commonsense prevailed and it eventually came through.
Generally speaking, I think everybody agreed that there should be one but then the question was who was going to pay, how it was going to be paid and whether it should be compulsory.
JD: Yes, a compulsory or voluntary thing was always argued.
Who were the different sides on that, can you remember?
JD: No, I don’t because there were so many arguments for and against at that stage. I think the voluntary thing won out.
End Tape 2A: 3114 Words: 1 hour
ANSWCU 9 : 19 APRIL 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH JOCK DUNN
Now I was asking you about the Savings Protection Fund in the first place and you said there were a number of arguments about whether it should be compulsory or not, but also there was an argument about how it was going to be paid for.
JD: Yes, well that really cropped up every year at the Annual General Meeting.
Were you aware what happened during that period?
JD: Not to any great extent. I think the compulsory lobby was pretty strong.
But the Board generally, reading the Minutes, I get the impression that the argument as to how it was going to be paid for was between Dermot and the rest. Do you remember that at all? Dermot wanted to pay it out of the insurance rebate, but the others wanted it of a ??????? fee. The Board always agreed that that was the correct thing to do, have a ????? fee and Dermot would argue against it and he would get rolled in the Board and he asked if he could put it to an Annual General Meeting and they let him do it and he got it passed at an Annual General Meeting. Can you remember those incidents at all?
JD: Yes. When I was on the Board the argument was over. The Board eventually though the fairest way was compulsory.
And they pressed the Government to actually do that, which they did during your period, well not quite, just after. Did you ever go to any deputations to State Government?
JD: No they were all done with the Sydney resident Directors, or mostly Sydney resident Directors anyway.
Were you aware of the opposition from the Antigonish credit unions of Father Gallagher and people like that?
JD: Aware of it, but not involved in it, I really didn’t see anything of it.
I thought the Association was very fair that in spite of the fact that Father Gallagher was arguing against what the League wanted, they still used to keep him informed and allowed him to come to delegations while he was arguing in opposition.
JD: Well, I suppose if he knew what was going on, perhaps from the Association’s point of view, they felt that they would be able to change his ideas.
Incidentally, there were no country members on the Savings Protection Fund Committee?
JD: Was Peter Garrett on there at one stage, he may not have been. No. There again that was mainly because they could get to meetings quickly and it just wasn’t practical. If something happened and you wanted to call a meeting tomorrow afternoon, or this afternoon, they could get in touch with everybody and get them there. From a practical point of view it had to be.
What about the Legislative Committee?
JD: The same. Because they used to meet so often and the Legislative Committee, as the others, were guided by the policies of the Board as a whole, so we felt we could let them go to it and get on with the job. Sometimes Wollongong was involved, I think.
The argument over the tax exemptions, I know that was before your time as far as the Board is concerned, before the Association Board, but you must have been aware of it from a credit union point of view?
JD: Yes, that’s right, we were. It always came up at Annual General Meetings.
Who was speaking on that subject, do you remember? At the Association Annual General Meetings?
JD: I don’t know that we were involved. We used to send representatives to the Annual General Meeting of course and unless somebody didn’t cover it, we spoke a bit. But generally, most of those things, once the regional meetings started a lot of these things were really argued out at the regional level and we could put our point of view, which we possibly couldn’t do at the Annual General Meetings before regional meetings started, because there were too many speakers.
That as an issue was no longer there because in 1974 you got the tax exemptions. So I am talking about during the time before you got the tax exemptions. Were you at any Annual General Meetings of the League?
JD: George might have been, I think. If I did I don’t recall tax as an issue. It probably was discussed.
Well Dermot was particularly responsible for that in the end, him and Vince Martin. It has been constantly brought up. You weren’t aware of the legal challenges and various things like that? The history as it went through?
JD: I think the legal challenges mainly came from the banks, didn’t they and other financial institutions?
I am not talking about that, I am talking about the Taxation Department.
JD: There were other financial people who didn’t want to help us from that point on.
I have often thought there was a conflict of interest in this situation on both sides. For instance the person who mainly helped Dermot Ryan to get the tax exemptions through was himself a Member of Parliament, but he was also an Income Tax employee, or had been. He knew all the people and all the ropes. Incidentally he is still alive and I am going to interview him in Woy Woy. I was wondering how much you might know of what went on.
JD: No.
Do you think there are any particularly areas that I haven’t covered? What about the various extra services that are offered to members now, were you involved in the decision-making for those?
JD: I suppose the Board made decisions to do certain things, yes, to offer certain services at that time. But I can’t recall any particular one. Most of those schemes ended up going through the Board of course.
But it was computerisation which finally made it possible for all this. Were you involved in the Life Insurance decision at all?
JD: No.
What about the Term Deposits, the decision to put them through the banking scheme, central banking?
JD: I think they were starting then.
They were already started. Once the computerisation was done then everything was open.
JD: That came up continually the fact that we should do so and so but we can’t do it until the computer is operative, or we get a program for it.
What about the investment advice programs, were you involved with that either at the Association or at the credit union level?
JD: We would have had them here through reading about them.
You’ve got EDVEST, you’ve got Bridges, there is also Norwich.
JD: EDVEST we got involved in. This credit union thought we should be part of it.
That was after your time on the Association Board. What about the Bridges? Do you know anything about that at all?
JD: Yes, we became involved with Bridges here. When they were available our credit union appointed them to represent us, to send our people to.
Have you got anybody who is a licensed adviser here?
JD: No, not in our credit union.
So therefore you haven’t looked at the software.
JD: Not unless they have done it since I retired. I don’t think so.
Because that is getting to be really the key, isn’t it.
JD: We just relied on Bridges.
It relies on all the expertise of people’s research which is put into a software package. That means you can put in the variables for each person’s situation and it will come up with the most effective submission for that particular person’s investment problems. As I say there is quite a number of these. I think the Norwich was the first one.
JD: These are software packages?
Yes, they are used by these licensed consultants. They are not selling insurance themselves, they are selling advice. They are giving it away actually as a service to members.
JD: Yes, well this credit union offers it as a free service.
Of course it is paid for by the premiums, it doesn’t matter who they sell through. Were you aware that was these committees as far as insurance is concerned? The committees, the Life Insurance Committee and the other insurance committees were after your time on the Board.
JD: No, not really.
I know they don’t normally have Board members on those committees, they are normally other people. But the country people don’t get into them?
JD: No. Really when you look back again, the thing that I was pushing about this country representation, that I mentioned earlier, once the regional meeting started and got so successful, the need for country reps. as such wasn’t so pressing. I backed off then a bit, because you could see we were then finding out what was going on at these regional meetings and we could argue there, whereas we couldn’t before. That is why we wanted country reps., and country reps. are not Wollongong or Newcastle. That particular parameter of country reps. became less important once these regional meetings were so successful.
Do you remember, I suppose it would be Reg Elliott who was pushing this, would have been the one to introduce these sort of things, was there ever any discussion as to whether the Association would run a travel service, or whether it would be run in the individual credit unions?
JD: Well, I think that would have been after I was there.
Do you think that credit unions, or the Association, should provide co-operative services generally, and should extend them in the way that they have?
JD: Yes, I do. It can extend the local credit union’s service to its members, including travel service or anything else.
What about joint offices? They haven’t been very successful. There were a number of experiments done. You had one here I understand, between you and Orana.
JD: Yes. Well you reach a certain stage where that is not successful. You need your independence.
What about the Association running such arrangements?
JD: I don’t know, I don’t know that I would go along with that.
Well they did try to have regional offices for the Association at one stage.
JD: Oh, regional offices, I don’t know if that would be necessary either because in this day and age with fax and communication being what it is, it is just as easy to get through to Sydney, instead of adding to their overheads by having regional offices.
Well the attempts were made in some of the isolated places to actually have local credit unions represent the Association in an area to sell the services of the Association within that area. You weren’t aware of that? It was a trial and it was not a success. As a matter of fact I believe the biggest one was in Bankstown. There was an attempt at Broken Hill too and one on the north coast. None of them were successful, but I was wondering if you knew anything about them during your period.
JD: No.
Do you think the credit union movement has influenced your life greatly, being involved with it?
JD: Oh, yes.
In what way?
JD: It has made me more aware of finances, which I was never aware of before hand. It has influenced my own financial management for sure. It is one of those things that you follow through all your life.
Do you think it has influenced you politically in any way?
JD: No. No, because I have alway believed, and I expressed this opinion at the Association Board level, that we should, the movement should, keep in touch as much with one Party as the other, because today’s Opposition can be tomorrow’s Government. From that point of view we should curry favour in both camps. I can’t see either Government, particularly say the Liberal Government, I can’t see why they should be any less favourable to the credit union movement than a Labor Government. With the credit union movement being what it is and being able to talk to governments is a big plus in its favour to have the right legislation kept in front of us all the time.
Do you think religion such as it was in your life, led you to credit unions, to an appreciation of what they were?
JD: No, not me. It didn’t come into it at all.
For some of course it did, Catholics particularly and quite a few Anglicans as well.
JD: Church credit unions as well.
Some of the early people in the Association, Keith Young for instance who is an Anglican who entered the credit unions. But it was the Catholics getting in, the Antigonish Movement which drew them in. But not in your case. Do you think that the work you did for the credit union movement took a toll on your health or on your family life?
JD: No, not really. My family were in favour of it, so it didn’t take a toll in that sense. No I think it can only take a toll perhaps if you are working without your family’s backing or perhaps if it got to a stage where your family life suffered or something like that.
Well it does in some cases, drink as well. Constantly flowing drink around the credit union. Some credit unions get like that.
JD: Well it certainly didn’t with me.
I am just asking whether you had support.
JD: Yes, I had support from the family and of course my own Board here was always co-operative and it was an easy Board to get along with so it just didn’t suffer.
There are people also in the credit union movement who have acted politically within the credit union movement, I mean on the outside. Dermot Ryan was one where he used to be constantly active on behalf of credit unions politically. It used to take him long, long hours. I don’t think it worried his family though because he used to trap them into it. Did you know Meg, his wife?
JD: No. I have met her, no doubt, but I don’t know her.
You never didn’t have a base in Sydney? A lot of credit union people used Dermot’s place as a base, you see. Were you involved in AFCUL at all. You see when Dermot was on AFCUL, that was the base and Lidcombe was it. Did you know Dermot Ryan at all?
JD: Yes he was in it. At Annual General Meetings and all these sort of things.
You didn’t know him socially?
JD: Not, really. ???????????????
That’s what I mean, have you got any stories you can tell about him.
JD: Not really.
Or any of the others, Calverley was much different. How did you get on with him?
JD: Yes Berry Calverley was different. No I haven’t actually. Because my social dealings with them were only over a short period of time at a seminar, or an Annual General Meeting or something like that. It wasn’t socialising in the sense of outside the room.
What do you think you got out of Schools and training sessions?
JD: A better direction by learning other people’s points of view and finding out what was going on in the movement and what was happening in other credit unions.
Was this found out at lectures or was it found out in a socialisation?
JD: Yes, in that sort of socialisation, you often had more discussion, more fruitful discussion, than you did within the seminar or the meeting itself.
You mentioned going to a Newport School on one occasion, does Room 19 mean anything to you?
JD: Vaguely. I can’t recall now what it is.
Actually it was Sydney Credit Union’s. Used to be fairly stocked with refreshments I believe.
JD: Quite likely. I only have one or two beers and that is enough for me. Most of the time I have orange juice or something like that.
Who do you think are the outstanding people you have met in the credit union movement?
JD: Well I suppose Bill Howe would have to be the first one I could mention.
Got any stories you can tell about him?
JD: Not really. He did a good job, I always think he does.
He doesn’t have any enemies then?
JD: I couldn’t imagine so, really. I couldn’t imagine him having enemies.
What sort of person is he, is he very energetic, is he forceful?
JD: Yes. He always amazes me how devotes so much time to the credit union movement really. I suppose he, like a lot of other busy people, he makes time. You have got to do that. But he would certainly be one outstanding personality.
Did you every meet Kevin Yates?
JD: Kevin Yates, yes I did. I didn’t know him very well.
Father Ganey?
JD: I met him, but again not enough. Kevin Miller, for instance, would be another outstanding personality, ones that I have know personally. I could probably look through the Association’s Annual Reports and think of others too, apart from Reg Elliott, for instance, who I think was an outstanding man who came into the credit union movement. I think he was an outstanding man, as was Stan Arneil and Beresford Calverley. Ken Bain is another one.
Did you know Don Harvey?
JD: No.
You know Tom Kelly.
JD: Yes. But I didn’t have a lot of contact with Tom though. I sort of heard more of Tom than know of him.
Were you aware of the disagreement between him and the mainstream of the Association, League, over the co-operative bank business?
JD: I was only aware of it. Don’t know anything about it.
I have often wondered about that because the impression I get is that Tom Kelly was actually side-lined over that. Whereas Dermot Ryan, although in the end Dermot was out of it as well and he lost his influence, he went through a whole stage where he could get away with it. He could challenge everybody and get away with it. Of course eventually he couldn’t.
JD: No, I think those few are the ones that.
Did you know Brian Willoughby?
JD: Yes, I did.
What was he like? I know he has died now.
JD: Another enthusiast, but I didn’t know him very well. The ones I have just mentioned are the ones I have had more contact with either at meetings or at Board level.
Well do you think there is anything we haven’t covered, we should start another tape for?
JD: Not really.
What I should ask you now is where we are now in the credit union movement? Where are we going?
JD: Well in the short time I have been retired of course there probably hasn’t been a lot of change. We have been heading more and more towards the financial institution set-up that really doesn’t take account of our original philosophy, it perhaps getting a bit away from that. But by the same token, providing we can still maintain loans to our members at a lower rate.
End Tape 2B: 3191 Words: 1 hour 10 minutes.