24 MAY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO CLIFF JURY WHO WAS PRESIDENT OF THE AUSTRALIAN FEDERATION OF CREDIT UNION LEAGUES FROM 1976 TO 1977. CHAIRMAN Mt ISA EMPLOYEES’ CREDIT UNION 1971-1983. DIRECTOR QUEENSLAND CREDIT UNION LEAGUE 1972-1977.
CJ: When did I leave AFCUL?
Well I have got you down for 1974 to 1977 as a delegate.
CJ: When was I President?
You were President in 1976 to 1977.
CJ: Well it was because of disaffiliating, then naturally I had no standing.
So it disaffiliated in 1977 did it?
CJ: Yes whatever date that was, was the time that it disaffiliated.
What happened to the credit union is it still going?
CJ: Yes. It is now called the Queensland Country Credit Union. It is very big, it is up over one hundred million dollars. I don’t know what their latest figures of members are, but it is quite big. It has spread all over Queensland now you see.
Who were the ones who took it out of the League?
CJ: Well there was Warwick.
Was this the business with Len Hedger’s credit union?
CJ: That’s right. If you have got the story on that, that is the same thing.
Yes well I recorded Len Hedger and I have recorded a lot of other people.
CJ: It was exactly the same situation. There were a few of us that didn’t quite agree with the way it was going, purely within the Queensland State, and that was it.
How did you come to be President of AFCUL? Exactly how did that come about?
CJ: Well I was a delegate. I was on the Queensland League Board and I was a delegate. I was nominated I am pretty sure by New South Wales. They had for some time been trying to get someone from Queensland, they hadn’t had anybody from Queensland for some time. The previous nominees weren’t very acceptable at the federal level. Then I was proposed and New South Wales backed me and that was it.
Jack Coyne was President for four years.
CJ: I followed Jack Coyne.
Did you know anything about the resignation of Dermot Ryan before that?
CJ: I was involved in his resignation. He resigned in my time.
It was an unwilling resignation I believe?
CJ: Well how much am I going to say?
Well it is up to you. Actually Jack Coyne has already told me exactly how it happened in the end.
CJ: Can you tell me what he said and I will confirm one way or the other.
Well he said that they all realised Dermot was no longer acceptable and that he was ill.
CJ: He was ill, there is no question about that. He was very difficult to get on with and he wasn’t doing a very good job, full stop. He was very much entrenched. He had a contract of employment which was the in thing in those days, apparently. I came from the personnel industrial side so it was rather a shock to me to see what was there. I was involved with making all the arrangements for him to finish.
I have a tape of his farewell in Canberra in 1975 I think.
CJ: I was there.
Apparently he used to get into strife with somebody from Victoria, can you remember who that was? I think it was someone called Peter, it wasn’t Peter Hodgkinson was it?
CJ: He was in strife with a lot of people. He was very much his own man. If you didn’t quite agree with him then he was anti. It became very emotional with him, this was the problem. Even the speech I am sure comes over very emotional, ‘I did it my way’. Was that involved in it? That was their favourite song and that was him, no question about that. He just ran out of friends he had upset so many people.
Was he trying to start an AFCUL central in opposition to the other League centrals?
CJ: There was talk, but I knew nothing of the details. It was more or less part of the scene of being anti-people who were there and he was going to go his own way, etc. etc.
You had to deal with Kevin Murray.
CJ: Well Kevin was my Secretary.
How did you get on with him?
CJ: Reasonably enough. He was quite easy to work with. He wasn’t that well accepted by some of the States. He tried but he had a certain amount of personal problems which didn’t help. Where is he by the way?
He is Manager of Punchbowl Credit Union still.
CJ: Is he. Well he will do a good job there.
He wont talk about that period on tape. He has talked to me confidentially but really hasn’t got to the bottom of that. I had the impression that he might have had some problems with Dermot, even after he left. Have you come across anything like that?
CJ: I don’t recall.
Apparently he thought a lot of Dermot.
CJ: Well he worked very closely with Dermot. The same as, what was the name of lass?
Margaret Barrett.
CJ: Margaret Barrett, she was very much a Dermot back-up. Oh they liked me. He had the personality. I don’t know if you have ever met him, but he had a real personality no question about that.
Unfortunately I didn’t get to record him. I tried to record him once and he was intent on getting me to show him how to record people. I couldn’t get him to see that the best way to do that was by me recording him. Then later on when they called me into record him, he spoke with a croak in his throat and we thought it was just laryngitis and it turned out to be cancer, secondaries.
CJ: He lived life to the full, let me put it that way. But he was very emotional. He got on pretty well with people generally. But as I say this very stubborn streak that he was always right. You know in this game where you work by committees, that doesn’t always work. You have either got to be a very strong person and ride it out, or finally all the knives are out. There was a certain amount of politicking went on at that level. I don’t know what it is like now, but certainly it was at that time. Even when you had your General Meetings it was caucusing, my goodness it went on to the wee hours of the morning. You would arrive on the Friday night and the conference was to start on the Saturday, there were certain items to come on the table and you went from room to room. It was a real deal. It was something new to me, I must admit. I had never come across it before.
By the way, before I forget it, Jack Bannister and Lee Nash and Clarrie Murphy asked to be remembered to you when I found you.
CJ: That’s great. The story was that I was in Perth at the time when all this happened. I came across for the meeting in Brisbane and flew back that same night because I was working over in Perth for a six month stint, three months at that time. The decision was taken by my Board. Now I am not saying that I would or wouldn’t have agreed, but the decision was taken. They rang me and said, ‘We have all decided this way and we are just letting you know.’ I said, ‘Fair enough. I can do nothing about it.’ So at that point I resigned.
So they decided to withdraw from the Queensland Credit Union League?
CJ: From AFCUL and the League. They formed a separate group, which Hedger would have told you about, the Federation.
Are they still a member of that, by the way?
CJ: No. Only last year they decided to go back to the League, so they are very much part of the League again. But that was all right. I felt no bitterness, a lot of them did, but I felt no bitterness that is not my style.
Charles Furness won’t talk still, he won’t be recorded. Harold Marsh was and his opposition, Lloyd Hawkins did talk as well and Len Hedger did. A few of the others that I didn’t expect to talk did.
CJ: Well Furness was in the middle of things. I’d better be careful I suppose, but he wasn’t my type of person.
Oh by the way somebody else I did get to talk to, he did talk, was Godfrey Stephens.
CJ: Well if you see Godfrey, and he is on the Queensland committee of this group, give him my regards. He was my first contact with credit unions when we first started in 1971.
Did they come up to you?
CJ: I went to them first. You know how our credit union was formed, I guess.
No, I don’t.
CJ: Well I guess you will remember that in 1964 there was a very big strike on at Mount Isa, it went on for some six months. A lot of bitterness. At the end of it all it was agreed that every two years the management and the union representatives would get together and have talks and plan agreements on conditions for the following period. There had originally been a scheme whereby employees were helped by the company. In other words the company lent them money to buy things, buy houses, buy whitegoods. They paid very little interest and they paid it back out of their pay over a period of time. We had stopped that. It was just after the strike but it wasn’t because of the strike. It was simply that we weren’t in the financing arena, that wasn’t our scheme, we were a mining company.
You worked for the mining company did you?
CJ: Yes, I was Personnel. So at the talks in 1970 they brought up the fact that the company was helping them to get into new homes, we were building homes for them to buy. We were making arrangements for pretty good mortgage conditions with the banks and we were lending them the deposit, a lot of them didn’t have the money. They then said they wanted more money because they had to buy furniture. A lot of these people didn’t have a bean. So they said how about us resurrecting this whole scheme and we weren’t happy about that. Then Edgar Williams from the AWU raised the matter of credit unions. He had been to America and seen them over there and thought they might be an answer. So I was deputed to go and do something about it, have a look and find out all about it. As a result of that report it was agreed that we would start a credit union. Because I was so much involved in the organisation they appointed me Chairman and away it went. It grew very quickly, very quickly indeed. There was a real need for obvious reasons in Mount Isa. Finance companies had gone in there in a big way. They had people in hock well and truly and were charging them exorbitant rates of interest. So when we opened up the credit union we were just inundated with members and funds and everything else. The company lent a certain amount of money to start us off, which we paid back under a year, and off we went. So it was a very fast growing credit union and that is how it went on. So as a result of going to Godfrey, he then came up and came to our formation meeting. I kept in fairly close contact and the next thing I was invited to join the League Board. I don’t know if you have got the message on tape, I have got a bit of philosophy on the matter. Prior to say my period it has always been in the hands of people who were well-meaning as far as people were concerned, however they weren’t necessarily professional people. Some of their accounting and running of these credit unions left a lot to be desired. It was a time of a few credit unions going bankrupt and some of the Managers taking money and all that sort of thing. It was simply because they weren’t on a professional footing. Now I was part of a new breed that came in and I had the background of accounting and everything else. As I moved in, other people moved in about the same time. It then moved on to the next stage of having professional people involved and a lot of the methods and the operation and the growth of credit unions changed. The banks were then starting to get into ?????? They weren’t very happy about our growth and they were fighting like fun.
Who took over from you as Chairman and who was Manager then?
CJ: Well Jim O’Toole was the Manager. It was taken over by David, I can’t think of his name at the moment. There is a recent book that has been printed, I suppose you have seen that?
What on the history of the credit unions?
CJ: On the history of the Isa mines. They have their twenty-first birthday in February. So it is in print now. If you wanted a copy then it would be a matter of purely writing to them, I am sure they would give you one. I am trying to think of the name, I will think of it in a moment. Jim O’Toole has since died of cancer as well. But that was really what it was all about. I guess I came into a void really. Not a void, but there was an opening there for a bit more professionalism to come into the scheme. That didn’t say that the previous people hadn’t done a good job, I am not saying that. It is just that the credit union as an organisation, movement, was moving onto another stage. As you know it has changed considerably since that time. Before that, particularly Victoria for instance, they were just little small town ????
Yes. I have just been down recording in Victoria and I have recorded forty people down there about the VCCA and such like.
CJ: They got into a bit of strife.
Yes indeed. Ted Long was the early days social pioneer.
CJ: This is part of the same thing that I am talking about. Well-meaning amateurs. Goodness me they were so naive when it came to a few things it wasn’t funny. In my period of Presidency that was all just starting to show up and we were trying to fight the fires.
Have you kept up with things?
CJ: No I haven’t, not that much.
Well they are now in the process of putting it into one big body and doing away with the State bodies. They have got some resistance in Queensland.
CJ: I’ll bet.
New South Wales has sort of just about finished, they have put it all into the one body. They have moved into one building.
CJ: Have they?
Yes. They have cut out all sorts of people. Lots of people have taken early retirement.
CJ: Yes, well that is all part of the deal isn’t it. You know you have just got to trim your ship and run it very tightly. Otherwise you are just going to go down.
Reg Elliott has given a date for his retirement. He has given a definite date and I think it is a couple of years hence. Because otherwise he didn’t think he would be taken seriously.
CJ: Well really that is an example of what I have been trying to put across. You have to do these sort of things. Even the Dermot Ryan situation was exactly the same. You know the conditions that he was on was out of this world for the job that he was doing. Something had to go. This was just the timid step that was made I think. This is it. It is a hard old game. Once you get up fighting with the big boys then you have got to go accordingly.
You weren’t around at the League level when there was battle between Harold Marsh and Lloyd Hawkins, were you?
CJ: Well no I wasn’t in the League at that time. I knew about it but I wasn’t involved in it.
At AFCUL, you must have known them both of course. What about Merv Callaghan?
CJ: Merv.
He is still around of course.
CJ: Well I was around when he was involved. Well you know you have done a lot of interviewing and you have seen these sort of people. Now they are a particular breed aren’t they? There is a lot of ego involved and while they profess to be looking after people, really they are go-getting. They are very conscious of their own position. To my mind that was the type of person that was around at that time. Now OK there was a need when the movement was still growing, but not any more. You can’t put up with that sort of thing any more. You certainly couldn’t even ten years back.
Did you meet Stan Arneil?
CJ: Yes I did. Now he of course was the typical well-meaning amateur. He loved his fellow man, you know. But again he was very much involved with him and when they didn’t do what he wanted, then that is when he went off on his own with his Shop Assistants. Shop Assistants wasn’t it, he was involved with the Shop Assistants. But he had the vision, there is no question about that, he had the vision.
He is supposed to have started, and I think he might of to, over a hundred credit unions in New South Wales.
CJ: Yes. Look he would go anywhere to do that sort of thing.
Then of course he got round the whole of Australia. It was he that started the ABC ones in all States. So he got to Godfrey Stephens amongst others and started things off up there.
CJ: I guess when you are starting a movement like this you need those sort of what are they, the people who go before. They are the pioneers.
The motivators.
CJ: They are the motivators. They are the people who have the vision. They sell, really, they just sell the idea. But as for running the credit union, they may not do a very good job of it. They are very much imbued with the philosophy. Well while a certain amount of philosophy is very, very important to keep it on the right keel you have still got to make it pay, you’ve still got to make it balance.
Yes. At AFCUL when you were there, when you were President, it was a very small organisation.
CJ: Very small indeed. They had the one office. There was Margaret and Kevin and another lass, and that was it.
You felt that was enough at that time?
CJ: Well we were working on the fact that it had to grow. But you had, exactly as you said before, all these State jealousies, ‘Keep off our patch. We don’t mind you coming in and talking with us but don’t go taking any power of us.’ That was very clearly on. The other States looked upon AFCUL as being a tool of New South Wales because they were fairly close to them.
I have a feeling that some of the States feel that the new central body is a tool of New South Wales.
CJ: Right. Well that was on at that time. It was hard to beat. I went right around Australia and visited them all and talked earnestly with the lot of them. At that time Tasmania was in a lot of strife. I don’t know how strong they are now. They were trying very hard. South Australia wasn’t too bad. Western Australia kept aloof and didn’t want to have anything to do with us. Victoria, their trouble was just starting to come out as I said. Queensland was anti anybody, anything south of the border at any rate. So they were the sort of jealousies that went on.
There is something here that I have had on my mind for a while. We have been trying to find the old records, early records, of AFCUL particularly any material that might have been sent anywhere. For instance, Margaret says that she sent regular material to the National Library, yet they can’t find any record of it at the National Library. During your period can you remember if you sent any?
CJ: Yes she did send stuff there, but I can’t help you any more than that.
So it might be in manuscripts there somewhere.
CJ: Might be. She definitely did, no question about that. Incidentally the name of the current President is David Woodall. He is a Manager with MIM still.
Well he is the Chair of the Queensland Country.
CJ: No there was a certain amount of stuff sent, there is no question about that. Margaret did a pretty good job you see.
It might be in manuscripts. It is not in the catalogue. I have been trying to trace it and I have actually been around checking the Archive of Business and Labour. It is not there.
CJ: It is not in Finance, Banking?
That’s a thing. Where would you have to send your statutory stuff? You would have to send them to some Canberra department. It was registered in the ACT.
CJ: Well it was under Friendly Societies wasn’t it? I don’t know what the department was in Canberra.
But it wasn’t one you see. It wasn’t a co-operative itself, with a company.
CJ: No, I know that, but I am sure that is where they would have tacked it wouldn’t they. I think it is worthwhile looking there.
I am having difficulty because nobody from Canberra has been recorded yet. I called Stuart Wall about that book.
CJ: Is Stuart still going or not?
He is alive but he is on the Gold Coast.
CJ: Is he? He and I had a fair bit to do at the time.
He was one of the Directors who started the CPS Credit Union in Queensland, the Commonwealth Public Service Credit Union. He was a Foundation Director there before he went to Canberra and founded that one.
CJ: Yes. If you make contact with him, give him my regards.
There is somebody else in the credit union book, you might not know him. A New South Wales bloke who is living up not far from you, up from Sunshine Beach I think, the Electricity Credit Union. Harry, the name has gone.
CJ: You’ve got a better memory for names than I have I can tell you.
Well I have got a million of them milling around in my mind. I have done quite a lot. A few of them have done their own. For instance Cam Laughton has done his own recording.
CJ: He would. I can imagine Cam doing it.
Terry Fitzgerald, he helped do it down there. So the next thing you know, when Terry Fitz was up here, he and Lee Nash did his credit union which was Prospect. That is one of the ones.
CJ: Well if you are interested in credit unions there is a definite history of the MIM one.
The MIM Credit Union?
CJ: No, it is now called Queensland Country. But it started off as Isa Mine Employees’ Credit Union, IMECU.
Tape 1A: 3974 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes.
24 MAY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO CLIVE JURY FORMER AFCUL PRESIDENT
CJ: We had a very, very strong base at Mount Isa. We were the only company at first, then all the local people in the town said they wanted to join. Then all the people in the Shire. Then of course we had branches in Brisbane and Townsville, so we started to spread there. It has just gone on from there. They are in about a dozen towns all together. As well as all the company employees.
So it has got pretty big.
CJ: So it has got big within Queensland. Their Head Office now is in Brisbane. But the main operation is Mount Isa.
Where did you come from originally?
CJ: Queensland.
I mean were you born up in Mount Isa?
CJ: Brisbane.
You went to school there did you?
CJ: In Brisbane.
What part?
CJ: Annerley then the State Commercial.
Annerley. Do you listen to Australia All Over on a Sunday morning do you. Do you remember the journalist who grew up in Annerley Junction there.
CJ: Yes, Annerley Junction. Though I didn’t know him, he was a little bit after my time. Well he was at Annerley Junction and I was two streets away.
You didn’t go to a Catholic school?
CJ: Didn’t go to the Catholic school I went to the State school. We were one of that mob. Then worked in town and then came the War of course.
Where did you go in the War?
CJ: Well I remained in Australia. I joined the RAAF but I was in one of those units that didn’t move, we were in engineering.
Which unit was that?
CJ: Australia Sea Works they called it. It was a Headquarters unit and they had sub-units in New Guinea. We would build all the camps on the airfields and all that sort of thing. That is what we were involved in.
Not under the Civil Construction Corps? Or were they under you?
CJ: I think they may have used them on occasions, but nothing else. I was involved in that because I had come from civil engineering before then. I had worked for a civil engineer in Brisbane prior to the War. Then from there I went to a place called Wondai, outside Kingaroy where I was an Assistant Shire Clerk for three years. Then because of my wife’s health we came back to Brisbane and started all over again. Then got into Personnel Administration.
So how old are you now? When were you born?
CJ: 1920.
You’ve got a bit on me mate, I was born in 1932.
CJ: Is that right. Well I am a little bit ahead of you. Then I went to Mount Isa in 1956. That is the story with Utah or ????, as their Personnel Manager.
Right. You had done personnel management before?
CJ: Yes. I’d been doing some personnel management for some eight years with a manufacturing company in Brisbane. Utah picked me up and offered me a whopping big raise and conditions if I would go to a place called Mount Isa. That was how I came to go up there.
There are a lot of people who went up there. I was even through there myself, but it was all closed up at the time.
CJ: When? 1964?
No, it was later than that. It wasn’t going at all it was all shut up.
CJ: Must have been 1964.
It was before I came to Australia properly. I am a Pom originally and I came to Australia permanently in 1967. I didn’t work at the mine. The mine was closed. But I was here before. I don’t remember what year it was.
CJ: Well if it was shut and not working, it would have been 1964. For six months it was shut down. That was the big one.
Then I was over in New Zealand working over there. Then I was back over here again. I was at sea and I wandered around for years and years. I am darned if I can think of that fellow who lives just up the road from you. Probably you wouldn’t know him.
CJ: Well if he bowls I would. I am in the bowling fraternity.
We contacted him by accident. I am going through a whole lot of cards while I am talking to you. I have come across a card that has got Keith Bastion down. This bloke had the same sort of situation as you did at Mount Isa. The Board disaffiliated right from under him and he ended up losing his Directorship of the New South Wales League over it.
CJ: That was certainly my story. It was a bit of a shame because with AFCUL we had put a few things en train. I was starting to do a certain amount of talking to people and getting them to start thinking federally. As I say it was hard work, but I was gradually getting them around I felt. Then whammy I was out of it.
He must have been in the same sort of position as a credit union is in this, as Tom Hanson and BHP down the south coast. Well no, I suppose you weren’t, you ???? the movement so to speak whereas he did not. He thought that if the Registrar did his job they wouldn’t need all the government intervention that they did.
CJ: Well that was the original thinking. It was going back to the parish credit union run by the Brother, you know the parish priest. That was the thinking of a lot of people. Even in my day there was still two or three in Brisbane who weren’t members of the League but they were there and they were barely making ends meet. They were only doing that because they weren’t paying any of their people, it was all done on a voluntary basis. Well-meaning but they weren’t doing a very good job professionally. But that is not to deride anybody. I think that is how a lot of these things do start. But unfortunately a lot of the newcomers coming in don’t know that background and they lose sight of the fact that there is a philosophy underlying the whole thing. I am afraid a lot of my new people don’t give a fig for philosophy. They were just running a bank and that was it. We had a saying that in the mines credit union we had a committee which always approved loans. If they knocked them back they had to go to the Board. But inevitably they did approve the majority of them. Often when they sat them down at a meeting and that they used to give them one from the heart. In other words, when you put it down on paper it really wasn’t a very good proposition but they took a punt on the person and it worked. It worked, they weren’t let down that many times not to keep going. But you know that has gone, I believe. It certainly has gone in the banking business. You don’t get too much of anything from the heart from banks any more. I am very anti-banks by the way. I will tell you that right now.
I don’t think many people approve of them actually.
CJ: I have been anti them right from when I was involved with the credit union.
Funnily enough I recently was phoned up to do some interviewing for the Commonwealth Bank, to do their top people. I have been doing them. It is surprising they are not unlike people who are in the credit unions. It is amazing they all finished school at Intermediate, you know. They all went straight into the banks. Been there ever since, you know. They work all hours, work weekends and that sort of thing. They are prepared to move anywhere to get promotion. They talk about this and that and the other thing and as I say the sort of people they were is not an awful lot different. Most of them have been in the credit union as well, in the CBOA. That was a funny credit union. They have always sort of stayed outside haven’t they?
CJ: Well you know it is not a highly technical business by any means really. It is just a matter of keeping your balance and keeping your nose clean. You have got to make sure nothing goes drifting through the cracks.
Well I am hopeless at financial management of any kind.
CJ: Well I grew up in it and to me it was like bread and butter. I enjoyed it, I will tell you that right now. I spent hours on the streets. I had a fairly big job of my own, I was an executive of the company. But almost every lunch period I was over there spending all my lunch period dealing with credit union matters.
Were you sort of allotted the job of starting it? Or did you do that out of your own volition?
CJ: I was allotted the job of getting it on its feet, yes.
So you were like Tom Hanson and the BHP one.
CJ: Yes. I met Tom by the way. I went down to have a look at how he did a lot of his things because they were in much the same game that we were.
Bill Griffith followed him.
CJ: I don’t know.
Bill took them back. You know Tom kept them apart from the League. Well Bill took them back into the League, the Southern end of things. There is Jim Wardle, he is still down there, he is working as an investment consultant to the credit union people.
CJ: Well you had to be very much in tune with it because you spent hours, day and night. You know the trauma we went through when we decided that there was no way in the world we were going to be able to run this credit union up there without a computer. Well goodness me, the fun and games you have with that. Anything that could go wrong, did go wrong and you are a long way away from the capital cities so you know what it was like servicing. But you did it and that was it.
You didn’t have the conflict of interest the same as some people about sort of going in with the company and the credit union on the computer?
CJ: No, no worries on that.
Some of them did.
CJ: No. In fact what happened was we tried to match as much as we could with the company computer.
But you didn’t actually use it, or did you?
CJ: Well we worked through theirs because we had a very good arrangement with the company that we got pay-roll deductions from them. That really made the system. So our computer had to be compatible with theirs. What used to happen come pay day they would feed the information off their computer into ours. Everybody’s accounts were updated quick smart. So that helped a lot.
I am just doing something re Bankstown’s credit union, in Sydney, at the present moment. They had the same sort of arrangement. Well they were doing it on tape mind you. But when it came to a time whether they would actually go in with the credit union the Manager held out against it. He was with the Council on the computer. He held against it and wanted to go with the League’s one, which they did after discussions and a bit of argument.
CJ: Well we didn’t have that conflict because the League was too far away anyway, whereas the company was on our back door.
Well he was in a difficult position trying to persuade them at the time because the League was still on bureau arrangements. The Council, Bankstown Council, were actually offering them to put it through their computer so they would get it on-line straight away. But on the other hand, two years hence they would have been separate from the League.
CJ: They would have been way down a long track. It would have been hard to come back.
As far as the running of AFCUL is concerned, and the meetings and such like, was that a big thing for you?
CJ: Oh yes. I had to do a lot of travelling, as you can imagine. All of this was done mainly in Sydney, although we did have a couple of meetings outside of Sydney, the conferences. I had to have a very understanding boss I tell you. I travelled. I would leave Mount Isa on a Friday, arrived Friday night, have a meeting Saturday and Sunday and be back on the plane to Mount Isa on the Monday morning. That was the only way I could do it. Then I had to go and do these inspections. But I took some time of my own to do some of those.
You would have had to have a rather understanding wife I would have thought.
CJ: Yes very much so, very much so. But I never regretted it and neither did she. I felt a lot of satisfaction, put it that way. Not on the fact that we had grown, but on the fact that it had worked. It was the little stories from the individuals, how you had helped certain people and got them out of a hump and that they had come good as a result.
Can you remember any stories about that?
CJ: Well there was one person who when he came to us was in real trouble. He owed money to the bank. He owed money to finance companies, they wouldn’t give him any more. He had borrowed from his mates on the job and they were dunning him, they were really giving him trouble. He had a wife. They had a family. He was just a complete no-hoper. He couldn’t manage money and neither could she. So when he came to us, of course, we said, ‘All right, tell us all about your loans and where do you owe this and where do you owe that.’ Well he didn’t tell us all the story when we first started, but we didn’t know that at the time. We took him on and it came to the point where we had picked up all of his debts for him and put it all on to one loan. Then he was able to start repaying and then it come to the point where he would come into us and say, ‘Look my washing machine has gone bad,’ or he needed things for the kids, clothes or something, ‘can I get some money?’ We would have a look at his loan and would say, ‘No, I don’t think you can, but come back in another month you will have two more pays in then. We will lend you a little bit and get you out of your trouble.’ In other words we managed his money, all his pay came to us. Now when I left up there he came over and shook my hand and more or less treated me like an older brother. His wife was running a little business. All his kids were growing up and very well dressed and well kept. He had money in the bank and he thought he was wonderful. It had simply been because the credit union had managed his money for him. That was picking somebody right up off the floor and taking it on from then. There were a number of people like that.
Can you tell any stories about people who were in AFCUL? Do you remember Bill Howe?
CJ: Yes I would know Bill.
Anything in particular. He followed you didn’t he?
CJ: Not really.
Who was after you? Oh of course Ian Larsson.
CJ: No Bill Howe, he followed me. Ian Larsson was after that wasn’t he? He was around in my time. Oh it was a bit hard to think. I am not a great storyteller anyway. There were some wonderful characters believe you me.
Did you come across David Dinning in Queensland?
CJ: Yes.
In Victoria and everywhere else.
CJ: Yes.
You know where he is now, he is in Africa.
CJ: I was talking to his father-in-law the other day.
Well, well, well. I got to interview him in Sydney there for the Victorian people. But he talked about Queensland and South Australia.
CJ: Yes. There was a lot of fun and games went on there from time to time. He had certain ideas and other people didn’t think they were any good.
What in Queensland?
CJ: Oh yes in Queensland. Well you know the ABC wasn’t doing too well at one stage. But he did very well for himself. He went to South Australia and then Victoria, didn’t he?
Yes. He did a good job in both places but unfortunately they felt he had outlived his usefulness in Victoria. He was the man for the time when they got him in.
CJ: Well they were in real trouble. We thought he was a mug for taking it on. It was real trouble. It was rubbish.
But when he had got it right then they felt that he wasn’t going ahead enough.
CJ: Yep. Well he was limited, no doubt about that.
Aren’t we all?
CJ: Aren’t we all, I suppose. But he had his use at that time. But apparently he is as happy as Larry in Africa.
Yes, he likes it there. He did a good job in South Australia as well. He unified them. They had a divided problem down there.
CJ: Look, you tell me what State hasn’t, you know. But look that is democracy. If you are going to have these sort of organisations you are going to have that sort of situation. I saw no harm in that. They were a darned nuisance at the time, but to me it was kept alive. As long as someone didn’t try to dominate. That was when it all became a bit hard to handle. When these people started to dominate and the other people would react against it and so it would go on.
Did you have much to do with Graham Benson, or had he sort of got out?
CJ: Not a great deal, no.
So who did you see from Victoria in your day?
CJ: Ian Larsson was involved. He was very much there in my day.
From Tasmania?
CJ: Oh gee. Tall thin fellow, what was his name?
It is not Paul Morley?
CJ: No.
Not Don Closs?
CJ: No.
He is interviewing down there.
CJ: They weren’t very strong. The fellow that was Risdon, who was he?
I can’t remember, I haven’t interviewed anybody down there.
CJ: He was with Risdon, that was the smelter, right. He handled Guthrie when I went down there. Oh dear, oh dear.
I will look at the files it will all come to mind. Of course I am not a credit union person at all. I am just going on what I have been told.
CJ: Well maybe that is not a bad thing. If you have been close to one side or another at any time it can colour you.
Did you get any flack or any of the waves that happened off the insurance split in New South Wales when Stan Arneil was sacked from CUNA Mutual.
CJ: It wasn’t Arneil, who was the other one. Who followed him?
Oh, John Granata he is still there. I have interviewed him.
CJ: Is he? Goodness me. Yes there was a certain amount.
It was mainly in New South Wales.
CJ: It showed up elsewhere. The feeling was, I think, that America was dictating. They were pretty inflexible about a lot of the stuff. People were shopping around and finding that really they didn’t have such a wonderful deal with them. That really started all the ball rolling, you know. Then it got into personalities and went on from there.
Yes, that is the problem with personalities isn’t it?
CJ: That’s right. Certainly that was the big thing. That was certainly prominent my time.
Did your credit union insure with CUNA Mutual?
CJ: Now you are asking me a question.
Everybody has at some time I think.
CJ: I have got an idea we didn’t. I don’t think we did. Look I couldn’t absolutely be sure. There were two parts to it, weren’t there.
CUMIS.
CJ: CUMIS that is right.
CUMIS was the general insurance company and CUNA Mutual was the life insurance arm. Unfortunately they didn’t start off with CUNA Mutual because they couldn’t get a licence to handle life policies of any description. This meant they couldn’t handle loan protection insurance.
CJ: That was the main one that everybody was looking for.
They got one about two years, or two and a half years later.
CJ: Yes, but they were a bit late.
Well it was virtually all over. Stan used to talk to me on the phone, but he wouldn’t be recorded on all this. Of course he is dead now. He felt very much let down by the whole thing. He felt that he was the meat in the sandwich, I suppose, and I suppose he was. But he had put himself there. Very ambitious to put himself there too.
CJ: Well he being the first felt that he should be held up in that sort of position. But there came a time, and you were talking about outgrowing your usefulness, that is what happened with Stan. As easy as that.
But I get a bit annoyed with them. I suppose I have got the benefit of hindsight. But it was obvious that if you are going to start a whole lot of tuppenny-ha’penny credit unions, the next problem was going to be how to support them and keep them going.
CJ: Didn’t it happen?
Well it didn’t happen until too late almost. Very nearly too late anyway. It did happen in the end, but by that time they had to amalgamate them in all directions.
CJ: Right. But you know everybody wants to do their own thing. We tried to get amalgamations going time and time again everywhere. Boards would get down and talk and that was the end of it. They pulled away. No-one would give in, no-one would compromise. They wanted to keep all their positions. They could see half the people that were there weren’t going to be in positions of a little bit of power. That was what it was all about. You were talking about amalgamation with the Isa Mines one, we tried to pick up the Electricity one from Cairns on a couple of occasions. But oh dear they wouldn’t let it go. It could have been terrific.
So what is the one down in Cairns now, or is there one? Or is that Sun State?
CJ: In Cairns? Oh well Sun State spread. I don’t know where they are now.
Of course Capricornia has spread a bit as well, out of Rockhampton, but I don’t think they have got up that far.
CJ: No. We had a fairly big show in Townsville so it was a hop, skip and a jump to go to into Cairns. We didn’t just want to go in and do service, we wanted to go in as an amalgamation and be a partner.
Now there is another way of amalgamations. Because companies are closing and getting restructured themselves aren’t they. Takeovers.
CJ: We took in Yabulu into Isa Mines. Just as well we did.
Bill West wouldn’t like that.
CJ: No.
He was down last year, down to the Annual Meeting of the Historical Co-operative. For the first time he came down. We got Godfrey Stephens down. You wouldn’t care to come this year would you. Have to get your credit union to pay your way I suppose.
CJ: That’s the problem, being a retired gentleman.
Well thank you very much.
CJ: Thank you, that’s fine. Happy to talk with you. Inclined always to talk a bit too much, I think. I have not been one for talking I would rather do.
Thank you very much, goodbye.
End Tape 1B: 4079 Words: 1 hour 35 minutes.