26 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO BRENDAN GRIFFIN
I will ask you Mr Griffin, where were you born and when?
BG: Born in Melbourne. Always lived in the south around Melbourne Town. Born September 1930.
What sort of area?
BG: Well we grew up in Carlton, the Carlton/Fitzroy area. School in St Brigid’s North Fitzroy. Then went on to secondary college at St Kevin’s and matriculated. Then took on accountancy part-time after work, as people did in those days. Finally got the ASA letters of my name, which was a big achievement in those days. Then graduated into credit unions when I went to live in Box Hill, before I got married. Of course the identities in Box Hill at that time were very strong in a co-operative sense.
Who was that?
BG: Ted Long and Frank McCann. You would certainly know Ted Long’s name. Frank McCann was very much involved with the YCW co-operatives both on the housing side and particularly on the trading side. I actually worked at the YCW Co-operative for about six years before I was married. I got my first introduction to co-operatives there.
Are you on the list to be recorded for the YCW. They are doing their oral history as well, I am doing it?
BG: Well I have been getting all their screeds because I know Ted Long and Frank McCann and Leon Magree and Bob Maybury, all those identities. I was also working with all those guys, but I don’t know if I am on the list or not, so we may meet again.
Now I know I will be asking you questions about it as we go along. What sort of influences did you get from your parents?
BG: Well that was mainly the Christian and Catholic ethic through the co-operatives to be able to assist the social principles virtually established by the Church I suppose. That was the common theme that ran through a lot of the formation of co-operatives by what happened around Melbourne Town, through largely the auspices of Ted Long I would say.
Any political influence?
BG: No political influence. Plead not guilty on that one.
Not even DLP?
BG: Oh a minor DLP background influence. My brother was more involved in that side of things. I had been along to some of the National Civic Council meetings, but not in a very active participation sense, just as an observer. I have always been interested in politics and if you were interested in politics at that stage, and this is going back to the days of the split and Dr Evatt and that sort of thing, I used to go along to political meetings just to listen to Evatt and listen to people who were involved. Santamaria and those guys who were interested in the political happenings at that point of time.
Where did you go after school, what was your first job?
BG: Oh after school I took a job in an insurance company, then I went into a textile company.
Doing what?
BG: Doing accounts work in the main. All that time I was studying accountancy part time. The way I got into the co-operatives really, I was Secretary of the Tennis Club at Box Hill at that stage and a vacancy came up for the Secretary of the local parish credit co-operative. Ted Long, because he knew me from work, asked me if I would take that on. It was a bit of a chore because it was more bookwork and if you are doing bookwork during the day who wants to have more bookwork at weekends and at night and all the rest.
Which parish was that?
BG: St Francis Xavier, Box Hill. St Garbiel’s, Reservoir was the first one.
Were you involved with that?
BG: No not directly. John Hiddens.
I have got a couple of papers of his in the Catholic Truth.
BG: Well his son was active in co-operatives and he was active in the formation of the Association. St Gabriel’s had a magnificent record and the work that they achieved was a sort of shining light for everyone. You went and had a look at St Gabriel’s and you found out how to do it. That was the learning curve for a lot of parish co-operatives and how things got started. It is a bit of a tragedy in my view that they are not still there.
Were you around when there was the push to turn the parish credit unions into community credit unions?
BG: Yes, I was very much involved in those developments.
Did you agree with it?
BG: Yes. I saw it as a natural progression and that if you kept it just down to the parish level then you were depriving the opportunity for credit union membership and credit union benefits to such a lot of people who are your friends and neighbours virtually. I think that was the right move to go on and open it up into communities. The success or failure of community credit unions I believe is all about managerial things and managerial performance.
So it was Ted Long who introduced you to co-operatives generally was it?
BG: Yes. Actually after I left the textile firm a job came up as Accountant at the YCW Co-operative and I applied for that and got that. What we used to do, Ted Long and myself and others like Leon Magree and Bob Maybury, after work we would go up to the likes of Kyneton or Bendigo and have these cottage-type discussion meetings which were the basis of the formation of a local parish-type credit union. Subsequent to all that, once they had been formed and operating as parish’s for a while, then they joined in with the expansion into community credit unions. I think you have probably got from Ted Long the fact that one night in Bendigo I think they formed four credit unions in the one night, four parish credit unions. Has he told you that? If he hasn’t he should have. That was quite an historic night. I can remember coming back from the meetings, “Did you form?” “Yes, we formed.” Four credit unions. Prior to all that we had a whole series, a range of cottage meetings to get the enthusiasm up to the right level. What has happened subsequently is those various parish credit unions have amalgamated into Bendigo. There are still some hard core ones like Sacred Heart, Bendigo, operating as a parish, they didn’t want to join in.
You used to drive back every night did you?
BG: Yes. We had the old FJ Holden. Ted Long had an FJ Holden in those days. You were bitterly cold by the time you got back to Melbourne coming from the cold environment around Bendigo and the hills around there. Some very cold trips backwards and forwards I can tell you. But the reception in the parishes and in the individual homes to which you would go was always very warm and a good family environment, very conducive so it wasn’t hard to sell.
When you went up on these meetings to form credit unions you went up with all the paperwork and everything like that?
BG: Oh yes. You had to get the forms filled in and then send them into the Registrar. Ted was the expert on the forms and he knew what to check for. He had all that down pat. He had a dossier which he would give to each one and run through them and make sure they signed this form, signed this and signed that. He was well versed in all those intricacies.
Then you would be back at work at the YCW in the morning? Was that a full-time job at the YCW?
BG: Yes full-time Accountant there.
Did you have anything to do with the Directors of the YCW?
BG: Yes. Perc Mitchell and Dan Armstrong and these guys. You know those names I suppose. Bill Davey was the Chairman of the YCW Co-operative in those days. He was a well-known businessman from Oliver, Davey, Grasse and we were proud to have him as the Chairman. He was a very shrewd thinker and had a very good commercial mind. He guided them commercially. It is always difficult I believe for co-operatives to make the transition from the co-operative principles into commercial life. That has been one of the weaknesses. I think you are aware what happens historically in some of these things.
How long were you actually working at the YCW as an Accountant?
BG: About six, six and a half years. I got married and I think for about ten or twelve years after I got married I was sort of in limbo in the co-operative sense because it was just too involving, the co-operative work, to blend that with a new family situation. I opted out virtually until I came back into full-time work in the stabilisation area. That was just a position advertised and I applied for it here in this building. I was interviewed by the likes of Les Harcourt and Geoff Conrad. Have you been able to interview Geoff Conrad?
Not yet no but I think he is on the list.
BG: He would be a very interesting man to talk to.
Les Harcourt I have interviewed.
BG: Well he is a well-known co-operative identity.
There are some people who are left off the list, I don’t know why. Maybe it is something to do with the political situation of the VCCA over the years. People like Nigel Westerby and John Woodhams have been left off, which is a pity.
BG: I haven’t heard too much of Nigel of late, but certainly John Woodhams would be very interesting to talk to. He was a Director for quite some time and then he went to La Trobe Valley didn’t he?
Unfortunately Graham Benson won’t be recorded.
BG: I can remember once again going down with Ted Long to La Trobe Valley about the time when they were forming parish credit unions down in Morwell, in Newborough and in Warrigal. Ted was the main part, I had just a supplementary role. I can remember one night sitting on a hill overlooking the La Trobe Valley and talking to him about things that were happening. There was always a lot of friction down there with the Morwell Trading Co-operative and some not so proper things going on. It always seemed to be a patch-up situation to keep it going in a co-operative sense. As a trading society it always seemed to get into bother fairly regularly. It was a big coup actually when we got Graham Benson involved in the credit co-operative development. His role was a tremendous role.
The YCW Co-operative, were you in at the formation of that?
BG: I wasn’t there at the formation. The YCW started off moving into the co-operative housing societies where they got grants from the Government for certain things. Terminating housing societies. Then having built their homes then they saw a need for co-operative finance and co-operative furniture to furnish the homes and provide the finance for the consumer durables that people wanted for their housing. In those days, we are talking early 1950s, the whole business was all tied up with hire purchase agreements. The retail chains had the market place well and truly sewn up and were making a very nice killing, thank you very much. Because they went so hard at it for so long they made the atmosphere ready for people to accept credit union-type finance as an alternative.
What were the products at the YCW while you were there?
BG: Products at the YCW? They had quite a lot of furniture, both lounge furniture, kitchen furniture. They had refrigerators, TV sets. Just like a big department store. Of course they had quite a deal of clothing, school uniforms started to develop in my time there. Also Frank McCann was doing a lot of work on development of school furniture, school desks in particular, and they used to go all round Australia. He virtually had a patent on a particular type of desk that sold very well and he was able to have it fabricated very cheaply. He used to organise delivery right up as far as Northern Queensland. He would send the desks and they would arrive in good condition and people would be very happy with the product. That was Frank. He would see an opportunity and he would develop it and he would go into it full bore. He was a very dynamic sort of guy.
What was their policy as far as making a profit, or keeping the prices down?
BG: Well they would make a reasonable profit. Each year there would be a profit struck and then we would rebate back to the members a percentage out of the profits. You would buy an article at an competitive price, be it a TV set or refrigerator, and then at the year end you would get usually a 5 per cent rebate of that purchase. They wouldn’t give the rebate up front, they would strike it out of the profits in the true co-operative style. The rebate administration was fairly complicated and in those days of course we weren’t computerised.
What did you use, Kalamazoo?
BG: Accounting machines. Fairly cumbersome and very laborious. Of course there was always a big headache in keeping track of members and change of addresses and all the administration nightmare of that type of thing. Ted Long could tell you a bit about that to, I would say.
How many accounting staff did you have, bookkeeping?
BG: Accounting staff was fairly small. We did have an Insurance Division to in the Trading Co-operative, which sold ordinary household insurance and contents insurance. That was very well received and that was usually organised through CIC Insurance or VACC Insurance. Once again Ted Long had a big finger in that whole arrangement.
The selling of the insurance, did you have a rebate policy from where you had a head or master policy at the co-operative?
BG: No they tended to sell insurance on a net basis. There was a big flow-on from the housing co-operatives to the insurance, so each housing co-operative always recommended the YCW Co-operative Insurance and I think that is still going strong. That has performed a very good function.
What about members, were only individual members allowed, or were schools and churches allowed to be members?
BG: Yes schools and churches and individuals could all be members. If you were a member of course you qualified for the rebate. If you weren’t a member you didn’t qualify for the rebate and membership was five pounds, I think, in those days.
Did they have annual membership, or just that initial share?
BG: No a one off. Your rebate went into what we used to call the loan account, which was an accumulation account. They have got the facility now where they can capitalise the loan account each year into new shares. Those initial shares that were started off say at $10 are now something like $56 with the accumulation of interest and rebates and things of this nature that have come during the year. So if you were a member there and stuck with it you did quite well out of it. The performance of that society has tapered off a bit of late, but by and large it has performed very well I believe.
So actually how long were you with the YCW?
BG: It would be about six years I was with the YCW Co-operative as Trading Co-operative Accountant as it was called in those days.
Do you know which years? You arrived at the VCCA in 1973.
BG: I would be battling, it would be well before then. It would be late 1950s, early 1960s. 1958 to 1964, or something like that, I would say, roughly.
So when you left there why did you leave there?
BG: Well mainly because of the pressures of family.
Not enough money?
BG: Well you see, and I think this happened to a lot of people in a co-operative sense, if you worked in co-operatives and had a full-time involvement and then had after-hours involvement it just became intolerable. It put too much tension on the family situation. I opted out of that and as I say didn’t come back into it until later years as full-time Manager of the Stabilisation Fund.
So you were foundation Member St Francis, Box Hill 1958. Foundation Secretary St Francis Credit Society for five years. Subsequently a Director Box Hill Credit Union.
BG: Well my experience serving as a Director at Box Hill Credit Union, and I think Ted Long actually served as a Director too for a time, I don’t think that is a good mix at all to try and be working in the co-operative at a full-time level and then have a part-time Directorship in another organisation. Once again it creates a lot of tension. I know at one stage there with the Box Hill situation we had to dismiss the Manager, now that became quite a cause for a lot of dispute and it had overtones into your daily work situation and it became very hard to manage and control. There was enough to do in the Stabilisation Fund and they tend to identify you from your work nine ’til five and translate that into an after-hours situation and that is not a good thing at all, I believe.
Lots of people do it. In New South Wales for instance what about people like Steve Birt, he sort of lives credit unions.
BG: I know Steve very well and I admire what he does but I wouldn’t like to try and mix and match what he does, quite frankly. That is exactly what I am talking about. Beresford Calverley, he did it quite successfully. Those guys must be better administrators.
Benson used to do it as well.
BG: Benson is a prime example.
When you think of it all the Directors at the VCCA must have done it because most of them were Managers somewhere else, they weren’t all Directors.
BG: Well for a long time you see we didn’t have many full-time credit union Managers and VCCA Directors. They gradually came in and they gradually virtually took control of the whole operation. That was quite a transition. In the early years it was a lot different from that. It always does create tensions and it is always harder to make an unbiased and impartial decision if you have got this other commitment that you serve nine to five and you are sitting here making a decision say at nine-thirty at night trying to decide which is the best way for it to go. That is not easy. You sometimes see in the decisions that are made a flow-on or an overtone from the nine to five situation. That is very human and very understandable.
St Francis, Box Hill Credit Society, you were a Foundation Member, can you remember the foundation of it and how it happened?
BG: Yes I can remember signing the forms on the night.
Were you involved?
BG: I wasn’t involved. Ted Long was very much involved. I am pretty sure at that stage I was still at the YCW so it was a sort of after-hours, “Come along to this meeting tonight because we are doing de-da.”
You were the Secretary and that’s that?
BG: Well no. There was an initial Secretary. I was the second Secretary. I wasn’t the Foundation Secretary, I was the second. The first guy, called Des Skinner, he had a health problem so he only lasted a relatively short time, probably twelve months or eighteen months at the outside. When he fell ill Ted approached me about taking on that job and so I took it on. It was a good job, but I could cope with it only because I was single at that stage. Once you get married it is pretty hard to run a lot of these part-time commitments.
Do you remember the various name changes that went through, were you involved with them? How did they all come about?
BG: Well they came about mainly through the idea of going from outside the church hall, virtually, on a Sunday morning where we did most of our business when people came out from Mass, doing the transition to the street front and going into Whitehorse Road. They took premises in Whitehorse Road. As soon as you were in Whitehorse Road it was difficult to put yourself up as St Francis Xavier Credit Union. They then changed it to Box Hill. That went through quite successfully. The Directors remained the same largely. We gradually got a few outside Directors in. Kevin Dartnell from Fibre Containers, he came on the Board as a Director and then finished up being Chairman for a while. I think he has only just recently retired. It went from Box Hill Credit Union then to Whitehorse. Then from Whitehorse to IOOF and I think that is where it stays at the moment. It has certainly changed a lot in that time. Being under the auspices of IOOF it is certainly a different organisation in a lot of senses to what it was as Box-Hill Credit Union.
Was there a mutual bond in Victoria?
BG: Mutual bonds are more New South Wales identities.
It would be American or Canadian wouldn’t it?
BG: Sure that is where it originated, but from an Australian point of view New South Wales were always heavily into the mutual societies. We either went straight community or industrial, we didn’t have too much of the mutual thing. It is only a relatively Johnny-cum-lately idea. At Box Hill Credit Union we had Fibre Containers come in and I think the local hospital came in. If you go to New South Wales a lot of the community credit unions had this strong industrial base. It is not a bad thing, I think it is a good thing, because you do need the cash-flow that the regular pay-roll deductions give you and all the rest of it.
Most of them started as industrials and then went out into the community, or amalgamated with community.
BG: It was a bit the reverse here.
When you joined the VCCA can you remember who interviewed you?
BG: Yes. Les Harcourt and Geoff Conrad, as I said. In one of these offices here I can remember. Actually I lived in Camberwell in those days and Geoff Conrad lived in Camberwell, probably we were half a mile from each other. I remember going down to his house and sort of concluding the arrangements about when to start and conditions and all the rest of it.
When you got here, did you have to invent the job or had they already invented it for you?
BG: Well no, it was pretty much from the ground up. You had to start it off, but that was all fine. I think my strengths are probably in the administration side of it so that wasn’t a hardship really. There certainly was a lot of new ground to be broken. Of course the rules of the Stabilisation Fund in those days were very much sub-rules of the VCCA and we didn’t have a whole lot of teeth at all. We had a discipline that came from the fact that they were members of the organisation. The tensions that developed in the administration of the Stabilisation Fund were usually between say myself and the likes of Les Harcourt with the Managers of various credit unions who weren’t performing too well. They were sometimes in fear and trepidation when we came in and made things difficult for us. We had a modus operandi which I thought was well-proven in theory and in practice.
End Tape 1A: 4020 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes

26 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO BRENDAN GRIFFIN
BG: We were talking about the inspection process which was virtually the heart of what we were on about at as regards the Stabilisation Fund. As I say, depending upon the size of the credit union we would either be there for half a day to a day. Not very often would we be there longer than a day. We would look at the official records, things that they were required to keep under the Co-operation Act. Then we would look with more detail at the operational situation as regards financial matters. Profit and Loss and Balance Sheets and whether they were increasing their deficit or not. Of course subsequent to the inspection we would make a report and then we would go along and have a discussion session with the Board. This is where the heat would really come on the Manager. Until such time as the Stabilisation Fund had been in and had a look-see and made their report, sometimes the Board were blissfully unaware of the performance of the Manager. You would go along and try and open their eyes to some of these shortcomings in a managerial sense about why they were spending so much money on promotion or why their loan rates were kept artificially low, all the usual pitfalls that they might fall into. Then we had to try and convince the Board that they had to change some of the decisions and get better control and better reporting from the Manager, more accurate reporting from the Manager. Those processes sometimes took quite some time. If we weren’t able to see a future for recovery and overcoming of an existing deficit situation, then we would have to look seriously at getting them to amalgamate. Usually the problems occurred when they went to the transition from parish to community, they had to have a full-time Manager and other staff and of course that would create a blow-out in their cost with regard to salaries. It was the control and management of those costs which was all-important. You had to get up to a big enough size to be able to justify the Manager’s and other salaries that were involved. That was very much the trick to be looked at very carefully.
What about the membership of the Savings Stabilisation Fund, was that voluntary?
BG: It was voluntary in the sense that if you were a member of the VCCA you were part of the Stabilisation Fund cover. If you weren’t a member of VCCA, which as currently you always have your share of unaffliates, they didn’t contribute to the Stabilisation Fund in a corporate sense and of course they didn’t get the benefits of coverage by the Stabilisation Fund.
Did you work with the Registrar at all, or was it absolutely within the VCCA?
BG: Well, we worked within the VCCA pure and simple but we always had discussions with people from the Registrar’s Office. In the old days Terry Harris and Peter Rogan, and latterly Owen Southfield. If you struck something really untoward you would make contact with the Registrar’s Office. They would have certain of their staff go out and look at credit unions, but they would only be interested in the registers that they were required to keep, such as membership and loans and security and all that type of thing. If a credit union was keeping all those registers okay, then they would get a tick from the Registrar’s point of view. When we went in from an operational point of view and found out that there was an increasing deficit of fairly large proportions, then we would have to say to the Registrar, “We are not sure that these people can continue down this road. Even their registers are kept very neatly and very tidily and very accurately, we want them to perform in an operational sense.
Was there a requirement to keep so much in reserve?
BG: Not in those days.
Your inspectors didn’t go out with the Registrar’s inspectors?
BG: No we went on our own. Very much off our own bat. I was there on the Stabilisation Fund for about four and a half years, and it was only in latter times that we got some assistance in the inspection role. There was certainly a need for it. A need for this commercial application.
What about the appointment of Administrators for any credit unions?
BG: We didn’t go in for that per se.
So how did you go if you came across a credit union that wasn’t viable?
BG: Well we looked at the amalgamation thing. That was the main resource and the main method of attack. Push them in with someone who lived close, or reasonably close handy, where we were more convinced they would be able to survive. The buzz word was viable. Everything had to be viable. It is only fairly recently with the legislative power of the Guarantee Fund and the Reserve Board that Administrators have been appointed in Victoria.
There were two aspects in New South Wales under which they used to go. One was the authority of the Registrar and the other was the authority of the Central. You used to sign an equitable mortgage, which I believe they did here too, and they used to use that also to get in there and do whatever.
BG: No. We used the rules of the Stabilisation Fund. The rules of the Stabilisation Fund were amended from time to time to give the staff of the Stabilisation Fund the power to inspect and to look at all the necessary records. There were some fights at Annual Meetings about extending those rules and amending those rules, but we operated under those rules. Now the VCCA did have equitable mortgage almost invariably on all credit unions, but it wasn’t under that that we operated we operated under the rules of the Fund.
The Registrar, did he ever appoint any Administrators?
BG: Not that I can recall.
So it was all done by persuasion?
BG: Yes. Moral persuasion. To give them their due most of them were co-operative. I can’t think of too many instances where we got into talks with people and they didn’t eventually see the light. It might have taken quite a number of sessions. If I had a difficulty as Manager then the second time I went along to discuss matters with that Board with regard to future positions and whether they should amalgamate, or what they should do with their Manager, whether they should get a new Manager in, etc., etc., I would take along Les Harcourt or Peter Hodgkinson, one of the heavies from VCCA, just to reinforce the whole thing and to convince them. We gave them the opportunity to make the decision. I don’t think we were too overbearing on them. We tended to operate under the co-operative principles, giving the Board due decision-making processes. I think that is important. Not to come in too heavy handed and ours was never an autocratic-type organisation I believe. I suppose we didn’t have enough teeth except as you say under the equitable charge. You see in the days when I was running the Stabilisation Fund the Fund itself was paying interest to its depositors. Sometimes that interest was 4 or 5 per cent, which in those days wasn’t a high rate but was a reasonable rate bearing in mind the management costs the Fund had to bear as well. We were always under pressure, “Hey what is the interest rate going to be on the Fund this year.” That whole ball game has changed quite markedly in the time.
The same thing happened in Queensland except they ran out of steam. They ended up running out of money with the first one. They had to start a second one.
BG: I believe the acceptance of the disciplinary actions of the Stabilisation Fund were better accepted in Victoria than probably elsewhere. My theory on all that is it is because of the Christian and Catholic ethos that it has come through. They are used to that acceptance of discipline and they know if they get coverage under the Fund they expect that Fund to have certain rights in relation to how they are performing.
You see there is also the situation that the Registrar must have the right to appoint an Administrator mustn’t he, because it is like putting a co-operative into receivership sort of thing?
BG: Whether those powers were written into the Co-operative Act back in the early days I am not too sure, but certainly in more latter times all those things have been amended with the appointment of the Reserve Board and all the powers that it has got. So the Registrar sort of had that ultimate authority but he was always jealous of using it and he was very reluctant to use it. He was very much a person subject to political persuasion and pressure from outside. Sometimes he used to come under quite a deal of political pressure, we were aware of that. We were sort of sympathetic to him in that regard and we had good working relationships with Warren Jungworth, he was a good guy.
Did you ever get talking with Les Robinson and Geoff Cambridge and Pat Taylor, the Stabilisation team in New South Wales, to compare notes?
BG: Yes. I have been along to sessions where those guys have spoken. They certainly had a different approach to us. A more heavy-handed approach definitely. I suppose their problems were more severe. I do hark back to that history of their Savings Protection Fund as it started off being called up there and the fact that they had some losses. In the initial stages were only able to give partial cover to certain credit unions depending upon the state of their balance sheets. Fortunately in Victoria we never had to do that. The atmosphere in Victoria was somewhat more conducive and we weren’t anywhere near as heavy-handed. In retrospect I think we can hold our head high.
Well there is no doubt none of your credit union members lost any money, whereas in New South Wales it did happen. One medium size and one very large credit union went down, unaffiliates, and they did lose money.
BG: One of the debates in the Victorian Stabilisation operation was whether we should cover the share capital. At the Board level it was always held that the share capital was risk capital. But when we refunded people’s deposit money and credited their account in say a new credit union, they had to then turn around and rejoin the new credit union and they didn’t like that and it was bad PR. That was a situation that pertained for say two or three years, but we saw a good PR exercise in making good the $10 shares as well because it was just making administration more difficult and also upsetting people unnecessarily for the sake of, in any given case, say $1,500 all up in a given credit union.
Didn’t they have a transfer of engagements?
BG: Yes they did have that facility and that was used quite often too. The Board and Committee of the Stabilisation Fund were always keen on that idea that they had put up their share capital and it was risk capital, so we would underwrite the deposits but not the share capital.
The Board of the Stabilisation Committee? Now did they have a Common Board as they did in New South Wales, and a credit union?
BG: It was a Sub-Committee of VCCA.
Did you have a VCCA Central Credit Union?
BG: We had one, but it wasn’t very big. It was only a mishmash of ones that didn’t fit into any other place. It was run by Barry Burgess, I don’t know whether you know that name or not, it was run by him for quite some time. We only used it as a vehicle when we couldn’t put people anywhere else. It only catered for the rats and mice, the little stuff.
Where did it go eventually?
BG: Eventually it went into Northern Credit Union.
Which is now?
BG: It has now been amalgamated with Telecom.
Well of course the New South Wales one is called the Metropolitan now. Universal and a whole lot of very fine credit unions went into it in the end.
BG: Is that the one run by McIntyre?
Yes, John McIntyre.
BG: I know him pretty well because he was very heavily involved in the New South Wales Reserve Board Administration. Keith Mannix is another great guy up there as regards the administration. We learnt a lot from Keith and I have a high regard for him.
So what were your dealings with the Committee?
BG: Dealings with the Committee, or the tensions that developed there, was because they would know the performance of certain Managers and the shortcomings there and were trying to get the Boards to take action against the Manager, and the Managers were always fairly keen to have good relationships with their own Chairmans and Board of Directors. You take it, if you are a Manager of a credit union you have got good relationships with your Chairman and the other person you need to get on very well with is the Auditor. The one that got into a lot of trouble here was down at Chelsea, where the Manager used to play golf with the Auditor and the Chairman on a Saturday. So he knew he was in pretty good regard there and I think that finished up costing the Stabilisation Fund, or the Guarantee Fund it had developed into at that stage, $300,000.
Were any Boards sacked?
BG: Not under Stabilisation. Under the Reserve Board they will do that here.
What about the Registrar?
BG: If you made that move under either the Guarantee Fund or under the Reserve Board, they would take the action and the Registrar would support you. Whoever was running the Reserve Board or the Guarantee Fund would have discussions, that person, the Manager, would have discussions. Now I served on the Committee of the Guarantee Fund and the Reserve Board. You would have discussions with the Registrar and sort of get the green light that this was what your path was, that you wanted to dismiss the Board or put in an Administrator. If you were determined to do that, then you had discussions, as I say, and get the green light.
There must be a difference in the Act because in New South Wales the only person who can dismiss a Board is the Registrar and now the Reserve Board can also dismiss a Board.
BG: Most of the powers here went into the Reserve Board when that legislation was proclaimed. I think they learnt a bit from the Sydney situation where the Registrar was unwilling to act. Sometimes these things boil down to personality and how personality’s see things. You could have a crying case which needed prompt action and if you couldn’t get it then it cost a lot of money. You couldn’t afford just to be hanging by the neck, so you would just force the issue.
You say there weren’t any Boards dismissed. Up there, there were quite a few where the Registrar took the side of the Manager over the Board and the Board got dismissed and the Manager was kept on.
BG: We never had any sort of shooting matches like that. But I can imagine that sort of situation, if it developed, it would be a very hairy sort of situation. It is a bit like the things in Queensland Teachers’. I have heard a few of those stories.
I have interviewed Lloyd Hawkins and I have interviewed Harold Marsh. But their members never lost any money.
BG: No, but they have had some administration nightmares haven’t they. I know a bit about that situation because of my background in VTU. I have just retired from VTU as a Deputy Manager there. I was there for twelve years or more. I know a certain amount about the Teacher Credit Unions throughout Victoria and throughout Australia.
Did you used to go to their meetings?
BG: Oh yes I have attended the ATCU conferences on quite a number of occasions. But they are largely Directors’ conferences and as such they are good for management observance, but they are more for an exchange of views and ideas and they perform a very good role in that sense.
What haven’t we covered as far as the Stabilisation Fund? There must be some other things? Are there any stories you can tell or are you unwilling?
BG: I am not exactly unwilling. You see when we had a lot of problems down at Laverton, Werribee and Laverton. What happened, they both came from parish-type backgrounds and we had firstly amalgamation with Werribee and Laverton. Then Laverton finally went into Telecom Credit Union. We had a Manager there who we knew was incompetent virtually and we had to go through this elaborate procedure of making his weaknesses come to the fore and that is always hard. The Board are always loathe to accept what you are telling them, so you have to demonstrate the whole thing in chapter and verse. We had many sessions down there on that. We have had sessions out at Lilydale with a guy called Terry Keeley, who embezzled quite a deal of money out of the credit union. He had a heart condition and every time he got into any difficulty he would fake a heart attack. I think he had three heart attacks in one week at one stage. The other guy down at Laverton, Norm Brindall, they had a safe in the floor, a concrete safe in the floor. He was the only one with the combination. The money was put in the safe after work on Saturday, they used to open Saturday mornings in those days, and then when they got the money out of the safe on Monday morning it wasn’t there. It was all clean and tidy. It was quite a sizeable amount, something between $4,000 and $5,000. That was non-proven and the Manager was under a big cloud when all that was going on. It took us quite some time to prise Mr Brindall away from Laverton Credit Union I can tell you. It is strange how people bob up under other situations, people who have worked there come back into the employment of other credit unions and you have got to say, “Hey you know this guy.” There is quite a bit of contact work done along those lines. You have just got to let the new employer know what the background is and that can save a lot of trouble if you short-circuit some of those things and that is very necessary.
You mentioned that you were on the Advisory Committee towards the Reserve Board? You were also on the Reserve Board itself?
BG: Yes. When the Stabilisation Fund got absorbed into the statutory situation there was a vacuum for quite a period of time. I went from Manager of the Stabilisation Fund to Manager of Wangaratta Credit Union. Then when I came back to Melbourne after about three and a half years, there were vacancies on the Guarantee Fund, as it was called at that stage. I was appointed to that because of my background and knowledge. When you have been in contact with as many credit unions as you do on a day-to-day basis, you just absorb so much and that background knowledge is very valuable.
So what was the difference between being responsible for the Stabilisation Fund and being on the Board?
BG: Well there was the difference of managerial and director-type situation. As a Director of the Guarantee Fund and the Reserve Board, what you had to do was read up on your papers before the meeting and make sure when you came to the meeting you were conversant enough with all the issues to be able to make the right decision. If you needed any filling in on any points then you would obviously discuss those issues with the Manager before the meeting. I was quite comfortable with that and quite enjoyed that role. Once again I believe the operation of the Reserve Board and the various people on it, you know there were some good minds on the Reserve Board, we were fortunate in having people with a good credit union background. You see you need a combination of knowledge, managerial skills, but also you need co-operative and credit union knowledge as well. If you have got that blend then you can make the thing work very well. I believe, as I say, we have done a reasonable job in Victoria. We stand on our record. I haven’t heard the full story of what has happened down at Moe and that hurts me. That is just so much money to have gone to waste I can’t imagine it.
Well nobody is talking. I did hear a little bit from the SEC people. But other than that I haven’t heard anything. As a matter of fact I talked to all the Sydney Credit Union people who are very friendly with the Moe people, but the Moe people still won’t talk about it.
BG: Well you see Laurie Watt is a New South Wales identity virtually. He has been in Victoria a long time, but all his roots and all his contacts and a very strong allegiance to the New South Wales set-up. He is very well-regarded both in Victoria and New South Wales. How that debacle happened in a nitty-gritty sense I just can’t imagine.
Bernie Hansord as well.
BG: Yes. These guys, solid as a rock. Jim Moore and those guys.
I don’t think Jim Moore was on it any more was he?
BG: No, probably left.
I think Bernie Hansford was still on the Board. Laurie Watt was still Manager.
BG: I knew that he had a pretty good administration background too. What happens quite often in these situations is that if something does go seriously amiss inside a credit union, and this happened to me in Stabilisation, you would get a whisper from one of the other staff members. Then you would go down and start talking and digging and delving and then you would find out. So it is amazing how the word gets out. You had to be very careful about what you said and who you said it to. I was always very grateful for a lead, because once you got the lead you could follow it up very quickly. You made yourself available. You went along to Chapter meetings and got alongside people. The socialising part of it was very important, just letting people know you were available.
I notice you have got a CUES pin there. Were you a member of that?
BG: When I was at Wangaratta, I was a credit union Manager. Once again, the CUES, I have never been overseas merely on credit union business.
So who handled it here?
BG: VCCA in the main. The Geoff Conrads and the Graham Bensons and company went overseas quite a deal. That was proper, they were the right people to do it, I am not saying that I should have gone. I did value the information that you would get from CUES because there were a lot of publications. When you are outside the mainstream, like when you are in Wangaratta, you thirst for information so you grab as many sources as you can get.
Did you have any problems at Wangaratta?
BG: I had problems with the Board at Wangaratta. That is what happened to me at Wangaratta. I helped to form the credit union in its early stages, I am there on the formation side of things if you go back to the very early records. In fact I might be able to produce a piece of paper about all that. Once again Ted Long’s background in that situation. However, Wangaratta Credit Union amalgamated with Albury and Wodonga and it is now WAW, Wangaratta, Albury and Wodonga Credit Union. The push was from Albury and Wodonga to do certain things and my boast was that while I was there it always ran at a profit and prior to when I was there it was not performing very well. I felt they could run it their way or run it my way but I liked dollars on the bottom line, thank you very much, that is my style. Anyway that it what it was all about.
End Tape 1B: 4144 Words: 1 hour 20 minutes