27 FEBRUARY 1992: VCCA34: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM STUBBS
I will ask you first Mr Stubbs where were you born and when?
TS: I was born in Surrey Hills, Victoria on 1 March 1925.
Did you grow up around there?
TS: Yes, I virtually haven’t shifted very far at all. I lived in Surrey Hills until I was about twenty-one years. Got married, we moved across to East Camberwell. We stayed there for about six years, then we built in Blackburn. We moved to Blackburn in 19?2 and that is where we have been ever since.
What sort of influence do you think you got from your parents? What sort of people were they?
TS: Well they were very good parents, very loving and caring type of people. They were always interested in outside people, helping others. They were very active in church life. Dad was also very active in the St Vincent de Paul Society. Also in the work environment he was tied up with union activities quite a bit. Our home life was very good. There were five children in the family, three boys and two girls. We were quite a good happy family, so much so I suppose you could say that the two girls became nuns, so there was a good influence from mum and dad in that regard.
What about the Depression, did that hurt you at all in the family?
TS: Well it did hurt, but we were probably lucky in so far as dad was in work all the time. He was a bread carter and he was able to keep in work right through the Depression. We managed to scrap through without too many hardships.
So where did you go to school?
TS: Started off at primary school at Our Holy Redeemer, Surrey Hills. At the end of primary school I went to St Coleman’s in Fitzroy for twelve months, which was a scholarship school. There were scholarships given and it started off my secondary school and then I moved to Parade in East Melbourne for twelve months. Left after doing the Leaving. Of course in that time primary school went to eighth grade. That was twelve months at Parade and then I left and joined the Telecom, or what used to be the PMG’s Department in those days.
What were you good at at school? What did you like or dislike?
TS: They seemed to consider that I was a reasonably bright student. I didn’t have any great preferences to anything. I just felt that I was reasonably good in all subjects. Probably didn’t do as well as I should have in secondary school. I think I might have been a bit lax and I didn’t get the Leaving at that time.
So when you started you first got work in what job?
TS: I joined the PMG’s Department as a technician on the telephone side. I actually remained in that job for thirty-eight years before I retired involuntarily through sickness.
When you first went to work there what job did you have first?
TS: Well I went there first as a trainee, we did five years of training. The first twelve months was completely in the training school, which was down at South Melbourne in those days. The beginning of the second year I turned eighteen and I endeavoured to join the forces, but that time it was War time. But the public service and technicians in particular had been declared a reserved occupation so I wasn’t able to go into the forces, so I remained as a trainee. I worked around various telephone exchanges around the eastern part of Melbourne, Canterbury, Malvern, Box Hill. At the end of training I was transferred into the city into the Automatic Trunk Exchange. I remained there for quite a few years before then moving out back into the suburbs on installation of telephone exchanges.
Now when did you start to take an active interest in the Association of the Credit Union?
TS: Well actually when Box Hill Credit Society was formed in 1958 I was one of the foundation members. It was May 1962 when I actually became a Board member of the Association. Prior to that I had been a member of the Box Hill Credit Union.
Had you before that been involved in the Postal-Telephone Union itself?
TS: Oh the trades union, yes I had been. I was interested in the union. One year I stood for and was successful in becoming Assistant Secretary. That lasted only twelve months because the next year it became a permanent position, a full-time position, and I wasn’t prepared to go over to the trade union movement as a full-time occupation.
So when did you first hear about credit unions?
TS: Back in 1957. Ted Long and Frank McCann were very keen on co-operatives. They formed the YCW Trading Co-operative and they were keen to get the credit co-operatives on the move. They had instigated quite a number of meetings and information nights. At Box Hill we had had a few and I attended those and found them quite interesting.
How long had you been in the YCW co-operative as a member?
TS: Well its been quite a few years now, I can’t exactly remember when I actually joined, but it would have been in the quite early days, 1958, 1959.
Were you in the housing co-operative?
TS: No, not in the co-operative housing.
So Box Hill was the first credit union that you became involved in. Was that a parish credit union?
TS: Yes, it started off as a parish credit union. It remained that way for quite a few years. Then we looked at it to becoming a community credit union, which happened. We moved down into the Box Hill shopping area. We had one shop and another bigger area we moved into. We found that was quite successful.
When they started the Box Hill Credit Union how was it run, was it all volunteers in the first instance?
TS: Completely voluntary.
So how did you get the money in?
TS: In the very early days, when it was really just a parish credit union, when it first started, we only used to operate of a Sunday morning. We had a room in the hall outside the church and we had a tin box which people used to put their pass-books in with their money in an envelope. Leave it on their way in to mass. The Directors, who were the volunteers for that particular Sunday, took the books and did the necessary work involved on them. They were ready for the people then when they came out after mass. A far cry from what it is today.
Can you remember any of the pioneers of the credit union movement in Victoria that you knew in the early days? I mean you knew Ted Long.
TS: There was Ted Long, there was Leon Magree, Graham Benson, Jim Ryan, Leo Stewart, Arthur Carter, Keith Glover, Arthur Otis.
What was he like? Where did he come from?
TS: He came from out the northern side of town, I just can’t recall what group he came from now.
Were you in on the formation of the VCCA? Or the forerunner of the VCCA, the Victorian Catholic Credit Co-operative?
TS: No I wasn’t. No I didn’t become actively involved until after about the third year. One of our Directors at Box Hill, Ted Clifford, he was the representative on the Board for the first couple of years. It wasn’t until 1962 that I actually joined the Board of the Association.
Who put you up? Who suggested you?
TS: That I am not too sure, but I think it would be that I took the place of Ted Clifford as the representative from Box Hill. In those days there weren’t a great number of credit unions involved.
Can you remember the formation of Box Hill Credit Union?
TS: Yes I can remember the first night that it was formed. There was approximately seventy people there, most of whom joined the credit union on that night. We still talk about the fact that we made our first loan that night for ten pounds, I think it was, for somebody to buy some paint to paint his house.
What was the procedure? Was Ted Long there?
TS: Yes, Ted was there. Ted spoke and he gave a resume, a run-down on what credit unions were all about, although most of the people had been to the some of the inaugural information nights. But Ted was the leading light and the push behind for formation of that particular credit union. Ted actually lived in Box Hill anyway, so he had a more compelling reason to get one going in that area.
So when you came on to the Board of the VCCA, what was the main consideration then? What are the first things that you remember?
TS: Well I would say probably the big thing in those days was trying to get more credit unions formed. The Directors themselves would spend a lot of time going round interviewing people, getting them interested in the co-operative movement. Once there was some sort of interest in forming one in a particular area, mainly they were in parishes in those days, we did everything possible to help them along. We attended their preliminary meetings, their formation meeting and then keeping together afterwards. We had regional organisations which enabled each of the credit unions to meet together regularly so as to exchange information, get some more information for themselves, strengthen them in their co-operation and co-ordination and association.
Did you go to the Co-operative School that took place in Victoria in 1963?
TS: That would have been at Warburton would it?
No, somewhere in Melbourne, before the Warburton Schools.
TS: I can’t remember now.
It was a Co-operative School as opposed to a credit union one.
TS: Yes there was one, in fact I think there were two. There was one that was held at the YCW headquarters at Lombard House. Then there was another one and I think it was held at the University.
You went to those?
TS: I went to the University one. I just can’t recall the first one that was held. I have seen that book, I have a copy of it.
That was Arthur Carter’s and he donated it to the project.
TS: I would say I probably did attend, but I can’t remember.
I was going to ask whether you knew if that School gave rise to the Schools in Newport. I have asked the people in New South Wales and I know some of them came down to the Co-operative School, Tom Kelly being one.
TS: Just off the top of my head, without being dogmatic about it, I would have thought that the Newport Schools originated more from New South Wales rather than from Victoria. Although Victoria did send people up there to those Schools.
Well I was actually querying whether they had modelled the Newport School on that, the one held in Victoria the year before. The first one at Newport was in 1964, there was one somewhere else in 1963, and the Newport Schools proper started off in 1965. They were run by the Chapters up there, the joint Chapters in the start. Then CUNA Mutual and the League took over and they went on until 1972, when Stan Arneil was no longer in the insurance company, he had been fired from there, and they stopped.
TS: I would still be inclined to say that they were more New South Wales. Victoria was more keen on co-operatives as a whole, whereas New South Wales was mainly only interested in credit unions.
Well that is not really so because there is a whole world of co-operatives outside. But they didn’t co-operate as much, I don’t suppose.
TS: That’s right. In Victoria I think there was a closer link between all the co-operatives through the YCW.
The largest complement of co-operatives in New South Wales is a lot of butter factories and things like that, farmers. The rest of them are comparatively recent. Now when you got on the Board was there any central banking system started? Can you remember anything about that?
TS: Not when I first came on the Board. I am a bit hazy about that.
You weren’t involved in it?
TS: No. I wasn’t involved in it.
What about the idea of a stabilisation fund?
TS: That came a bit later too.
During your time?
TS: Not really, no, after I’d left I would say.
I was just wondering who started that. I know that it was going in America. So what were the problems at that time? Did you have problems getting insurance, getting loan protection insurance and things like that?
TS: No, things seemed to be pretty straightforward in those lines.
Had the credit unions started to expand out of the Catholic parish-system and into the community, or not?
TS: Well there had been some movement, particularly down in Latrobe Valley. Graham Benson was very active in forming a credit union down there which was a community credit union. It was also associated with a trading co-operative he had going at that time down there. But it wasn’t until about 1965 where moves were made to change the Association from a purely Catholic Co-operative, which was mainly Catholic parish credit unions, to becoming a State-wide Association. That move was first made by Graham Benson, where he circularised all credit unions, irrespective of who they were, whether they were community credit unions or parish credit unions, canvassing the idea of forming an association. At that stage the Association of Catholic Credit Co-operatives got the OK from their fellow member societies to act on their behalf. Then there was quite a bit of discussion over twelve months between the Association and Graham Benson and his people as to the best way to go about it. Fortunately everybody was keenly interested in co-operatives, they weren’t trying to push their own barrows in any ways. So there was very fruitful discussion, especially on a couple of points, not everybody saw eye to eye on all things. I suppose one of the big things was that community credit co-operatives and industrial credit co-operatives were inclined to be a lot bigger than the parish credit co-operatives, therefore there was the matter of subscriptions. Once it comes to parting out with money, well then everybody wants to take an interest in it. But we worked on that for twelve months. I was on the committee that looked at those things. Then in September 1966, the Association changed the name. It became the Victorian Credit Co-operative Association as opposed to the Catholic Credit Co-operative Association. That name change was approved by the Registrar in October 1966. At the Annual Meeting of 1967 it was then the Victorian Credit Co-operative Association. Then most of the other societies, credit unions, joined to make it a worthwhile association.
Do you remember the two meetings that led to the actual change of name and formation of the full association?
TS: Well the General Meeting of all credit unions. There were two meetings, one in 1965, which was the first exploratory meeting.
That was in the Nurses’ building.
TS: That’s right. That is when they appointed a committee to look into it. In the next meeting, twelve months later in November 1966, at that stage the name had been changed and it was then available for membership to all credit unions.
That meeting was held where? Was it Latrobe Valley?
TS: No I thought that was in Melbourne.
I thought it was in the Latrobe Valley.
TS: I don’t think so.
You were at that meeting?
TS: Yes I was actually Chairman at that time.
So did you Chair the meeting?
TS: Yes.
Was that the meeting that Stan Arneil came down to?
TS: I can’t recall Stan being there.
You knew Stan did you?
TS: Yes, I knew Stan.
Where did you meet him?
TS: Oh he had been down to Melbourne quite a few times. He actually was our guest speaker at Box Hill one year at our Annual Meeting. We entertained him afterwards.
What was he at that time? Was he President of the New South Wales League, or was he working for the Registrar? Or was he already Manager of the insurance company, CUNA Mutual and CUMIS?
TS: I think he was working for CUNA at that time.
Well that would be about 1965. Might even have been a bit later than that, possibly 1966.
TS: That’s right.
Did you go to any of the Newport Schools?
TS: I went to one, but I can’t recall very much about it.
Maybe you visited Room 19 and Dermot Ryan?
TS: No, I don’t know that one. Can’t recall the name.
Well that is interesting. Well you can’t have known Room 19 then, because that was the Sydney City Council’s hospitality room.
TS: Oh Dermot Ryan, yes I do remember him now. Yes mention the Sydney City Council.
Have you got any stories you can tell about him?
TS: Not really. I wasn’t closely linked with him, but he was the sort of person that everybody at the School knew him.
You must have gone to the Warburton Schools as well?
TS: Yes I went to them.
Were you involved in organising them?
TS: No. That would have been, I can’t recall the year now, but I think they might have been after I had left the Association and I went as a representative or member from Box Hill.
When you chaired the meeting of the name change to the VCCA, you were Chairman at that time of the Association of Catholic Credit Co-operative Societies, and you were Chairman at the time the name was changed 1964 to 1967. Can you remember the moves that were made towards the name change? Who initiated the idea of it?
TS: Well as I mentioned before Graham Benson circulated all credit unions with the idea of forming an Association. The Association of Catholic Credit Co-operatives took it up and acted on behalf of their own members. At that first meeting it was decided that there should be representatives of the Association of Catholic Credit Co-operatives and representatives of the other credit co-operatives to get together and have a look at the whole set up and see what would the best way of going about it. Whether it would be better to form two associations or whether it would be better to be amalgamated into one association. It was as a result of these sub-committee meetings that they recommended to the second meeting twelve months later that the Association of Catholic Credit Co-operatives should change its name and make itself an open association so anybody would be able to join it.
Your part in that, were you pushing at that time? Or were you being pushed, shall we put it that way?
TS: No, I would say we were pushing. We were quite keen to have one association. We couldn’t see any sense in having two associations fighting one another.
Did you have anything to do with the Australian Antigonish Association?
TS: Not really, no.
Do you know what I mean?
TS: I remember the name, but I don’t remember much about it.
Do you remember the man, Father Gallagher?
TS: Yes, from New South Wales.
He came down here a few times. Did you ever see him?
TS: Yes he was down a few times but I never saw him.
He went down to Tasmania on holiday and formed seven credit unions down there.
TS: No, I don’t think he had very much push in Victoria.
Can you remember the name of the priest who was keen on the Antigonish-type of credit union in Victoria? You never came across him?
TS: Can’t recall him.
Somebody mentioned him, but I am not sure about him at all. When the name was changed and the new system was set up, I notice you carried on with the same Minutes books.
TS: Well actually because it was the same association, it was just purely a name change was all the alteration. The name change and the rule changes, but it was virtually the same association that opened its membership to all credit unions.
During your time as Chairman, you had professional staff who were pushing the formation of credit unions around the place did you?
TS: Well we only had people like Leon Magree who was Secretary of the Association and also was working in the YCW movement. But apart from that it was Directors and members of other credit unions who were getting around getting them organised.
You weren’t involved with that?
TS: In 1967 I resigned or retired from the Association. My children were growing up, they had reached teenage stage. I had been so active in so many things over the last ten, twelve, fifteen years, I decided that it was about time I stopped home and gave my wife a hand for a change. I kept on with the local Box Hill society, but I didn’t take much interest from thereon in the Association.
Were you involved with the Chapters?
TS: No.
Were there many Chapters at the time you were in the Chair?
TS: When you say Chapters, what actually do you mean by that?
Well there were a number of Chapters, even in that time I think. There was the Melbourne Chapter and there were more and more Chapters until there was about nine in Victoria.
TS: Well, I didn’t have very much involvement in that part. As I mentioned before the regional organisation that we had going with the individual credit unions.
End Tape 1A: 3661 Words: 1 hour 15 minutes.
27 FEBRUARY 1992: VCCA34: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM STUBBS
Were you appointed National Director at all under the system of CUNA International?
TS: No.
Didn’t go overseas at all?
TS: No. I never got involved in the international or the national scene.
Not a delegate?
TS: No, not at all.
Not to AFCUL when it was started?
TS: No.
Were you involved at all with the starting of AFCUL?
TS: Not really no.
That wasn’t the year that you were at Newport?
TS: I don’t think so, no.
I know Victoria didn’t become involved with AFCUL until it had been going a few years. Do you know if they approached you? Do you remember them approaching you when they were forming it in the first days? It was formed between both New South Wales and Queensland. I know they invited Victoria. Do you remember getting an invitation?
TS: I think we were invited but at that stage we were in a fairly small way. We weren’t altogether au fait with what they were trying to do. I think we were more interested in strengthening Victoria at that stage rather than becoming involved in national or international affairs. As I said, we were all volunteers, there were very few people who were in paid employment. So we had our hands full with getting our co-operatives under way.
When you first came to the Association of Catholic Co-operative Credit Societies as a Director had they already appointed a Manager?
TS: No, there was no Manager at the time. When I first came there Ted Long as Acting Secretary. He was full time with the trading co-operative for the YCW. He was Acting Secretary and virtually the Manager of the Association. After a couple of years Leon Magree was appointed as Secretary.
Did he work for a while, maybe over a year as a paid employee of the Housing Co-operative?
TS: That’s right.
Actually, he did the work of the Association.
TS: Yes, did the work of the Association in his spare time, virtually. Finally he became full-time with the Association. I think that would have been after it became an open association.
He was actually a Director at one stage, wasn’t he?
TS: Yes he was.
Then after that he became Manager in 1974 to 1977. So in actual fact when you were in he was working at the Housing Co-operative?
TS: Yes, that is right, yes.
Did you go to any of the other Credit Union Schools around the place? At Warburton?
TS: Went to Warburton one year. Apart from that I never went to any more.
What about education generally in credit unions in those days? I mean there had been that Co-operative School in Victoria. What sort of steps were you taken in the Association to educate people in co-operatives, in credit co-operatives? Did they start any Schools or any courses during the time you were there?
TS: There weren’t any courses as such. I think there were more information nights. It relied a lot upon visiting various areas, getting the local people together and talking to them about co-operatives. For those that had already been established there were Secretaries Meetings which were held on a regular basis. There were Directors meetings. But nothing of a real School standard, not until a bit later until the Warburton Schools and that sort of thing came about. Once again it was largely due to the lack of people to do these sort of things.
So what aspect of the activities of the Association were you involved in that we haven’t covered so far? Insurance, did you have problems getting insurance?
TS: No. We had insurance cover all right.
Did you have a head policy, a master policy?
TS: I think so, but I am not sure on that point. I was mainly interested in the local credit co-operatives. Visiting them and getting them off the ground, getting them organised. Attending Annual Meetings, that sort of thing.
Your predecessor as Chairman, Arthur Carter, do you remember what he was like? He is still around of course.
TS: Arthur was quite a go ahead sort of a person. He was an accountant and he had quite a good knowledge of credit union principles and the accounting side of it. From what I can remember he made quite a good Chairman. He took back over from me after. So he saw both sides.
So how did that happen that you took over from him and then he took over from you again?
TS: Well I think it was just coincidence really. In 1964 he retired, or stood down as Chairman, and I was elected. Then in 1967 I stood down, as I said before as I wanted to concentrate more at home, and he seemed to have been the person who was elected then. Just coincidence more than anything I think.
End Tape 1B: 822 Words: 30 minutes.