27 FEBRUARY 1992: VCCA37: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO RAY BOWYER
I will ask you where were you born and when?
RB: I was born in Murrumbeena in Victoria in 1935.
Did you grow up around there?
RB: I certainly did. I lived in Carnegie, went to school in Carnegie and then into East Malvern later on. Then I attended Melbourne High School after that.
You were at school where you were born, were you in that area?
RB: Yes. Murrumbeena and Carnegie are adjoining suburbs. I was born just a few streets from where I lived most of my early life.
What sort of influence did you get from your parents? What was your father?
RB: My father was a barber, or a hairdresser and he was having a hard time during the Depression of course. Things weren’t going too good. Then the War came along and tobacco shortages and things like that caused us a few heartaches. But my mother was always very insistent that I have a good education and work for the public service, that was her idea that was a good thing. So needless to say, after leaving I school, I joined the old PMG’s Department. First of all pushing a red bicycle as a telegram boy and then going on the technical side as a technician.
As far as school is concerned, what did you like or dislike about it? Or was it just one of those things?
RB: I don’t think I was a very good student actually. I wasn’t very keen on school. The sports part of it was OK. I played cricket and a little bit of football, but I didn’t like that very much. I swam a lot, which I liked, played basketball which was fairly new in those days, I think the only place that had a decent basketball stadium was the YMCA. Unfortunately they are pulling it down right now and it takes away a lot of memories.
So when you got in the Post Office was there a credit union going at that time?
RB: No, not at that time. In fact the credit union in the Post Office didn’t really get going until about 1966, I can’t remember the date exactly, 1966, 1967, when the first Post Office Credit Union started, which was the credit union belonging to the PTTA, which is the union. The Postal Telecommunications and Technicians Association, which is now called the ATEA, or the Australian Telecom Employees’ Association.
Were you involved in that from the start or not?
RB: Not from the start, but very soon after the start. I think my member number was 565 if I remember rightly, in the old credit union. That was joining about one year after it started. I remember Alan Dowle giving me a call one day and asking me if I would like to be involved. I joined the Committee and about four months, or six months later there was a vacancy appeared on the Board and I was on the Board before I knew where I was. From then on I very quickly became involved with the VCCA which was just starting up in those days of course.
Now that credit union which was called?
RB: The PTTA Credit Union, which later became the Telecom Credit Union.
Now who was the Chairman of that?
RB: The Chairman at that time was I think Alan Dowle. I would have to scratch my head a little bit there, it is a toss up between Alan Dowle and Ray Palmer, they alternated Chairmanships for quite a while.
Did the credit union have any employees at that time or was it all voluntary?
RB: Totally voluntary. We used to go in of an evening, I remember, and do all the loan applications and do loan approvals. We probably spent two or three nights a week in the union office, we actually had a corner of the union office which used to be called the credit union. We then took on a full-time employee, one person, I think it was Tom Smith in actual fact. Tommy Smith eventually ended up working for the VCCA I believe, in some respect. Yes that was it I think.
Do you know where all those records are? Have they kept them?
RB: I would think so. The old office that we used to have was in A’Beckett Street. It was a floor of the union building. No first of all we started in William Street somewhere, in the union building in William Street and then we bought a building. The union and the credit union bought a building in A’Beckett Street.
The thing is that when an entity changes it name, it becomes a new one. That means legally you don’t have to keep the old records. Now did people keep the old records and are they secure?
RB: Well I really would have trouble in finding that out because the Manager at the time when everything changed over I think was either Tommy Smith or Gerald O’Byrne.
Gerald O’Byrne is interested.
RB: Yes, well he would certainly know, because he was involved early enough in the situation.
But if he is not still involved, will he know now, you see, where they are. Somebody needs to go and check that out.
RB: I think you would have to check with the Telecom Credit Union. I haven’t had much to do with the Telecom Credit Union since about 1978. I had an unfortunate experience when my son was killed and at that stage I left the Board of the credit union and lost a bit of interest in community work for a year or two. Then I came back, left the PMG, or Telecom, and went to work for Siemens which kept me very busy for the next ten or twelve years.
Have they got a credit union?
RB: No they didn’t have. I tried very hard when I got to Siemens to organise a credit union there. But even it is a German company and I would have thought they would have a bit of an idea about credit unions, but they certainly didn’t and were not interested.
They are not a German company anymore, Siemens here. During the First World War they were taken over and became virtually a British company.
RB: Yes, that is true. When the two Siemen brothers went to England and started up the alternator factory as you know, early on the 1900s. But I would say at the moment that Siemens is by all means a German company right now. Very much controlled by its Board of Directors who are also on such Boards as the Deutchesbank and so on.
So they have definitely got the control back?
RB: Absolutely and have had since about 1950 I would say, when they really got back established again. They employ 430,000 people in the world and have got a turnover of sixty-nine billion US dollars every year. I mean it is a big company.
Yes indeed. Anyway, so when you first started in that credit union you were a Director?
RB: No, I was what they called a Committee Member. They had five Directors, I think, and excuse me if my memory is a big vague of going back to the actual numbers. But I think it was five Directors and at that particular time they had Committee Members who acted as volunteers to help run the credit union.
They were Supervisory Committee Members?
RB: No, they weren’t. The Supervisory Committee didn’t exist in those days. That was something that came later on.
So what Committee was it that you were on?
RB: It was just called the Credit Union Committee. It was just a way of getting people involved. They had various Committees like the Loans Committee and the Building Committee and other things like that, which they invited people on to. But the original thing was just a Committee Member. You sat in on some Board meetings, not on all, went to other meetings and certainly did a lot of work in keeping the books and learning a lot about finance. A lot of us didn’t really know much about it in those days but we certainly learnt very quickly and hard.
So who proposed that you went on the VCCA? Was it the VCCA?
RB: Well it was just starting. I remember Leon Magree got in touch with the credit union and I can’t remember who it was that went first, to the first meeting of the Association. But eventually I was nominated to go along, or I volunteered I guess we all volunteered for things in those days, to go to one of the Committee Meetings of the VCCA. There I remember meeting people like Keith Glover and Leon Magree and people of that nature, who then formed the Board of the VCCA.
You were on the second year actually, when it converted its name and opened itself to all credit unions. That was l966. So there might have been one person on before you maybe.
RB: Yes, there could well have been, but I can’t quite recall who that was.
The people who came off the Board in 1967, one of them would be John Cooney. You must have replaced John Cooney.
RB: I could well have taken his place.
He wasn’t Telecom, he was Werribee.
RB: Yes he was Werribee, that is right.
So maybe your credit union didn’t get around to joining the VCCA until the following year.
RB: I think that might be right. I think there was a lot of discussion about whether we joined the VCCA or not, I can recall in those days. I think it was only after I had been to a few meetings with the people there and found out what it was really all about that I convinced the Board that we should join, and we did.
So you were it.
RB: You always shoot the messenger.
So when you went on the Board what was the situation at the VCCA. Leon Magree was the Manager was he?
RB: Leon Magree was the Manager and Secretary of the Board. I am trying to think very hard who was the Chairman at that stage, I think it was Graham Benson, but it may not have been.
I think it could have been Arthur Carter for a start, for one year.
RB: Arthur Carter, that’s right, Arthur Carter. Arthur Carter was Chairman and then Graham took over and Graham virtually held the Chairmanship for most of the time that I was there.
What was the difference between Arthur Carter and Graham Benson as far as Chairing is concerned, do you remember?
RB: Oh yes I think so. I mean Arthur was a very conservative gentleman and very public service, I suppose you could say, in his outlook. Graham being more of the outspoken type of person with a lot of get up and go, wanted to run the world, run around the world, do everything that he could do to make things happen. I think Graham had a big influence on everything that happened in the VCCA and AFCUL, I believe, over the time.
World Council too.
RB: World Council.
He might not have had the influence there but he certainly had the position.
RB: He certainly did. In fact he did a very good job, I believe, apart from a bit of politics that went on within the organisation. It happens in every sphere, doesn’t matter where you are, you always get a bit of politicking going on somewhere.
What exactly are you referring to?
RB: I am not referring to anything in particular because I can’t really bring to mind any one issue that I can think of at that stage.
Yes. But something must have come to mind when you said that.
RB: No not really. I mean there were things when I remember Graham had a few people who I think were trying to get him. But I can’t remember exactly who. I was involved in an Insurance Committee at one stage which we did a fair bit of work. That was not a bad thing. That was all very good. There were, I guess, a few people who aspired to keep the credit union movement very tightly controlled. I guess it went back to a bit of a thing about the old name of the VCCA, as far as the Catholic credit unions being together and the others coming in to sort of open it up to everybody. That did get a bit of opposition I think.
Did you see anything of Stan Arneil coming down to try and start a League down here? He was involved in the push through the Union movement to start credit unions.
RB: That’s right. I had quite a bit to do with Stan too. Stan is a very nice guy and as I say over the years unfortunately with a lot of these people we have drifted apart. The last time I saw Stan was probably five or six years ago. Might be more, might be less, I don’t know. But I went up to Sydney on business and I rang Stan and we went down to the local pub and had a counter lunch together and a beer and a chat. Stan gave me his recent book which he autographed for me. Father of a Thousand Sons I think it was called. About his army experiences and so on and his experiences in Changi. A very fine gentleman, I believe. Stan was a gentleman.
So what did you have to do with him in the credit union movement?
RB: Well I was a delegate from the VCCA to AFCUL. Of course I attended a lot of the yearly AFCUL meetings and of course we all got to know Stan there. Stan, of course, came to the seminars that we used to have. He used to always be a guest speaker or a key-note speaker at our VCCA and League dinners and meetings. He was very much involved with bringing in the credit union insurance business, which we are all very, very happy about. I think it was a great start. There was a bit of controversy about that later on. But I think that virtually got fixed up.
He got fired.
RB: He got fired, that’s right. That was a bit unfortunate, I think. In fact that was a time when I was very sad. Again it was one of those things where the person who actually puts all the work in at the base of the thing, sets up the building, as soon as the building is looking good and everybody then wants to move in because it is looking pretty, the guy who set up the base gets kicked out because he has got old-fashioned ideas, or something of that nature. I am not altogether in agreement with that, but that is what I think happened to a degree.
Did your credit union insure with CUNA Mutual?
RB: Yes they did, for a while. This all then changed as Directors changed and things happened. The Telecom Credit Union went through a pretty bad patch. Ken Ploog and myself went through a pretty bad patch with our credit union. We had management fraud and all sorts of things that happened. Ken and I left, or I left by being kicked off the Board. Not kicked off the Board, that is the wrong statement, I wasn’t re-elected when my election came up. But it was at a bad time for me, as I said earlier, because I had this death in the family which caused a few problems. At that time I felt as though I was kicked when I was down. This was instigated by the management of the credit union at that stage. Although Ken and I had some pretty good evidence on that guy, eventually it did come through and we got him.
But you didn’t go back on to the Board.
RB: I didn’t go back on the Board at that point. It was a year or two as I say before I came back into any sort of public life. The family was shattered and my wife and I went through some pretty heavy traumas for a couple of years. But then we learnt to live with it, we will never get over it, but we learned to live with these things and I guess that is what happened. That was 1979.
Well what about credit union Schools, did you go to a number of them?
RB: I certainly did. I can recall the ones up at Warburton and various seminars. When you call them Schools, I guess they were more like seminars with a social influence. The social side of them was always extremely well handled and we had a good time together. A tremendous bunch of people I found that work with the credit union movement. I learnt a tremendous amount. In fact my career at the present time as a Marketing Manager, virtually came from my experiences with the credit union. I went to Marketing courses. I did a Dale Carnegie Course. I did a number of other courses through the credit union which have helped me in my career. I always look back on my experiences with the credit union movement and say, ‘Thank you very much for all of that.’ What I put in I certainly got back in other ways and it has helped me considerably.
Did you go to the first Warburton School? They were known as Schools weren’t they?
RB: They were known as Schools, yes.
Did you go to Newport?
RB: No, I didn’t. I didn’t go to Newport. I went to a number of the AFCUL meetings of course around the country.
Did you go to that one at Warburton?
RB: I did. I certainly did. That was a brilliant one.
Dermot Ryan?
RB: Dermot Ryan, yes.
Got any stories?
RB: Well Dermot, goodness me, Dermot was a very funny man.
Do you remember the Warburton Very Weakly?
RB: Yes, I do. Goodness me.
The Warburton Weekly, the Historical Co-operative we have got a number of them, courtesy of Berry Calverley.
RB: Yes of course, Berry.
Included is the AFCUL one when the little magazine was the Warburton Very Weakly.
RB: Yes that is right. I think that was the meeting where Stan Arneil gave the key-note address and there wasn’t a dry eye in the house. It was the most magnificent address that I have ever heard. We also had the gentleman from Fiji, I think.
Father Ganey?
RB: That’s right. It was magnificent.
Did you ever go over there to Fiji?
RB: I have been to Fiji, but not with the credit union movement.
What about World Council?
RB: I didn’t get to World Council, no. I wasn’t involved in that.
So you went to all the AFCUL meetings?
RB: Mostly, yes. I went to most of them that were held.
Did you go to the one at Wollongong where Stan Arneil was barred by Dermot Ryan?
RB: No. I didn’t go to that one. A few of the interstate ones I couldn’t attend because of work pressures. But I went to most of them I think. I remember while I was delegate, which was I really can’t remember the years at the moment. 1970, 1971, I think I was more than that actually. What is happening I think is that we also had an association of PMG, or Telecom and Post Office Credit Unions. That was an association where all of the credit unions such as Telecom, Piccol, the Queensland Telecom Credit Union, South Australian, we all used to get together once a year in each State. It would be a different State each year. The first year was in Melbourne, the second year was in Adelaide, the third one was in Perth and then Brisbane and Sydney and so on. This was another thing and they get a bit confused in my mind sometimes as going around all these things.
Yes I don’t have you down as an alternate.
RB: I may have been in that period of time.
No, I don’t have you down as an alternate. I picked those dates right our of their papers. It could be outside that as well. 1970 was in the Gold Coast wasn’t it? Or was it here?
RB: I think it was here.
Well that is something that I don’t have and that is a full list of where they were. I haven’t got a full list of where all the World Council ones were either.
RB: Certainly I do still have a file at home which I could dig up and check.
Well all I can say is, don’t fling it out. Generally speaking it looks like the various State bodies merging into a central body, well they are not going to have their old records. It looks as if they are going to try and hand them over to the Historical Co-operative. We take the attitude that that is all very well, but it is in Sydney, you see, so how is that going to be for the local researchers. So there is a move afoot to put one set in the State libraries and keep one set at the Historical Co-operative. Ken Lawton is actually President at the Historical Co-operative and he is very much in and works with his State library and they have got a good record in oral history. He has made contact with all the other State libraries and he is trying to get them to do this. But given that I think that the States want to give up their role, it will have to take it in somewhere. Because you don’t want it all in one place, that is ridiculous. So if you are clearing stuff out, then it is the Historical Co-operative in Sydney that is co-ordinating the whole thing, or Peter Ford here.
RB: Well I will certainly look into that and whatever I have got I will dig out.
Anything you don’t want in that area, dig it out and get it in.
RB: Well I can even make photocopies of things and give you them.
It could be that stuff would be duplicated. But then we would offer it back to you or whatever, you know. More than duplicated, because we keep two copies anyway. But we haven’t got sets of anything. We haven’t got sets of your newsletters. We haven’t got sets of Annual Reports. We haven’t got sets of anything. So we want to develop two sets anyway, even if some of them are photocopied, if we can. It may well be that we can’t, but at least we can try. All right, well so at AFCUL there, do you remember any concerns that were being pushed at the times you were there?
RB: I remember the credit union insurance thing was pretty big at that stage. Where it was going to go. Whether it would come from CUNA Mutual or whether it would come from local or what was going to happen. I think this caused a bit of friction with Stan Arneil and others, because he was always a very great advocate of CUNA Mutual. I think he worked for them here for some time.
Well that is right.
RB: He was the instigator of it all here.
Well that is not quite correct. The New South Wales mob were generally. That was something I wanted to ask you, was there anybody in Victoria? I presume that Graham Benson would have been. But I don’t know.
RB: Well Graham was the man who worked very closely with Stan I believe, initially.
What happened was this, as far as my perspective on New South Wales was. Tom Kelly and the others went over before and Berry Calverley had been over there before and they had seen the insurance set up over there. There was some holes in the insurance system for credit unions in Australia. So they were encouraging right from when Berry went over there and Stan Arneil went over, to come to Australia. Now when Ken Miller and Dermot Ryan went over, they really encouraged fully and they were coming, there is no doubt about that. Then it was going to be that one of them, or one of the pioneers in Australia, didn’t know which one, would be offered the job of running CUNA Mutual in Australia and it fell to Stan Arneil, he was offered the job. He took it and so he was officially Vice President for Australia, he was General Manager and Vice President for Australia, which is still John Granada’s title. I have interviewed him in Pennant Hills, or something. So that meant Stan was virtually bringing it here, but they couldn’t get CUNA Mutual away because it didn’t have a life insurance licence. So CUMIS started first. But when it did get away, it didn’t have anywhere near the rebate capacity of even ordinary insurance companies. So that was when the problems really started.
RB: Yes, that’s right. I remember now.
That and who would control what they used to call the Pool. Now were you in any of those arguments about that?
RB; No, I wasn’t in those directly.
I get the feeling it was Ken Miller mainly and Les Robinson and Dermot Ryan. Benson to some extent.
RB: Benson was on the outskirts of it.
But you didn’t hear anything of it?
RB: No, I am sorry.
OK. So what were the main concerns. Were you were on the Board of the VCCA they had got a central banking system going had they? Who was running it?
RB: Yes they had. They were about to start that central banking system.
Had they started a Stabilisation Fund?
RB; No. That came later of course.
Did that happen when you were on the Board?
RB: There is something with this Board timing here that worries me a bit. I think I was involved with the VCCA for a lot longer than the time that I was a Director. I think I might have been a Committee Member or something as well on the VCCA.
Well the main Committee that Board Members and Export Members were on was the Stabilisation Committee. Were you on that?
RB: No, I wasn’t on that one no.
So which one were you on.
RB: You have lost me again. Without those papers I am a bit lost in that respect. Of course the big thing was that we, our credit union, was in this building with the VCCA. This was virtually the building where the Telecom Credit Union moved to. We were here and so were the VCCA. So we had a lot of interaction between the two while we were together in this building, I guess.
So if you think you were a Director longer than that can you put a question mark on how long you think?
RB: It may have been to 1973, I don’t know. I would have to check that.
Well I have got a means of checking it because I have got a copy of the Directors’ Register here. But you see the problem with them is, the Directors’ Registers, is that the same name constantly recurs. Sometimes the last date isn’t accurate. They have either got dittos or nothing underneath it. But the first date is usually accurate, always accurate. But the second date isn’t always. So I will have to check that out.
RB; Yes, 1972, 1973, something like that.
Now this building. Were you in on the Building Committee?
RB: Of the PTTA and what have you, yes. Or Telecom Credit Union at that stage. I am just trying to think whether it was instigated from the VCCA or the PTTA. It was certainly a joint effort.
The union of the credit union?
RB: The credit union. The credit union started to gradually try and get away from the union’s influence. There was a very, very heavy union influence originally. Then we tried to get away from that because in actual fact you couldn’t become a member of the PTTA Credit Union unless you were a PTTA Union member, initially. This caused a pretty small bond and we wanted to expand that bond to allow other members of the PMG, or other technical people in the PMG, to join the credit union. Then we started on the families and wives and all that sort of thing. There was a bit of fight amongst us and the union to extend the bond, but eventually we did it and got away from the name altogether. In what year please don’t ask when we eventually changed the name. It must have been after 1975 when Telecom was formed and we decided to call it the Telecom Credit Union and it embraced all the members of Telecom, all the people working with Telecom who wanted to join the credit union.
These other credit unions which are trying to cross State boundaries in Telecom, I mean Credit Union Australia is one, have you had anything to do with them?
RB: No, I haven’t. I think that is after my time. I have certainly heard a bit about it. I do keep my ear open a little bit to see what is happening every now and again. I am now a member of Piccol, of course, and have been since I left under those unfortunate circumstances back in the late ’70s. Although I was still a member, I think I am still a member of Telecom Credit Union to be quite honest, but not an active one, but I immediately went to Piccol. Ken Ploog at that stage changed his allegiance and joined the Board of Piccol almost immediately. I mean Ken was so involved with credit unions they are in his blood virtually. He has been and still is very much involved.
End Tape 2B: 5043 Words: 2 hours.