10 FEBRUARY 1992: VCCA3: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO KEN PLOOG WHO WAS ONE TIME A PRESIDENT OF THE VICTORIAN CREDIT CO-OPERATIVE ASSOCIATION, VCCA
I will ask you first Mr Ploog, where you born and when?
KP: I was born in 1933 at Carlton in Victoria.
You grew up around there?
KP: Yes, I lived in Coburg all my life until about the age of twenty. I travelled the country for a while before I got married.
You went to school around that area?
KP: I went to Coburg West State School and then Brunswick Technical School.
What sort of influence do you think you got from your parents? What did your father do?
KP: My father was a stonemason. I think probably the only influence I got was the bit about integrity and honesty. The other thing that he did was cycling, he was a racing cyclist, and that influenced me. I took that up later.
Your mother, what do you think you got from her?
KP: I don’t know really, just to stick at things I think. Nothing special.
Any religious influence at all?
KP: No religious influence.
What did you like or dislike at school?
KP: Oh, I liked maths. Not particularly keen on English. At the Brunswick Tech I liked the trade courses, woodwork, sheet metal, engineering, doing things with your hands. But ultimately I didn’t finish up doing much with my hands.
Your father, did he work for himself or did he work for someone else?
KP: No he worked with a couple of firms. One for a long period was Lodge Brothers in South Melbourne, monumental masons.
When you left school, what was your first job?
KP: I worked at the Carlton United Breweries as an office boy for about six months. Then I had sat for an exam as a technician in training in the PMG Department. I initially knocked that back, but then I had a fight with the boss at the Carlton United Breweries and got another offer to get into the PMG as a technician in training. So that is where I started in the PMG in 1949. I have been there, or now Telecom Australia, ever since.
So what first drew you to the credit union movement? Was there a credit union at the office when you first joined?
KP: No there wasn’t, but I became interested in the trade union, the Postal Telecommunication Technicians Association, and I was a Branch Councillor of that and Victorian Vice-President. The Queensland Branch of that, they set up a credit union and they got all the branches interested in the different States and in Victoria, we took it up and set up a credit union without really knowing what we were doing. But we were told it was a good thing and we set up and I lost interest in the union and have been interested in the credit union ever since.
What got you interested in the union in the first instance?
KP: Oh, I think I was on country installation at the time, just before I got married, travelling the country and we were getting a pretty raw deal on travelling allowance. I had quite a bit of complaint to the union and when I came back to the city to work at Carlton Telephone Exchange, it just sort of followed that I became active in the union and got elected to the Branch Council.
Were you involved with the Trades Hall at all?
KP: No, I never got that far.
So when you started with the credit union, who sort of talked to you in the first instance? Where did you learn the philosophy of the credit union?
KP: Well at the time when we founded the credit union, I didn’t know they had a philosophy. It was 1965 and it was only after that we founded it that we actually sat down and tried to get it to work that we started to talk to some of the other people such as Leon Magree, Ralph Laws of the ACOA Credit Union, now CPS. There were a few other names, Ted Long was another name that comes to mind that we spoke to. Later on Graham Benson became a big influence in imparting the philosophy to us.
Were you at the formation meeting of your credit union?
KP: Yes, I was at the formation meeting. My membership there is membership number six.
Can you remember who else was there that day?
KP: I can remember a few names. I know Ray Palmer, Ray became the first Secretary of that PTTA Credit Union. Alan Dowle was member number one. My brother, who was State Secretary of the Union at the time, was member number seven. Bert Fissoli was member number five. I think they went in alphabetical order. I can’t remember the rest of them.
Was there anybody from the Registry, or from the Association at that time, the Catholic Association?
KP: No there wasn’t. We did it all on our own in ignorance.
So when did you hear that there was a whole horde out there?
KP: It wasn’t really until the Catholic Association decided to become the VCCA. They approached us, along with other credit unions, about joining the VCCA if they formed it. It was at that stage that we realised that there was a whole world of credit unions out there, although it wasn’t a very big world at that stage.
The actual formation meeting, after that, can you remember how the credit union was run? Was it all run by volunteers?
KP: It was all run by volunteers. The Directors and Ray Palmer as Secretary used to go up to the Union Office after work, two three and four nights a week later on and sit down and do the books. I think it would probably take an hour to do the books and two to three hours to balance them.
What about pay-roll deductions, when did you get them?
KP: It was later on we got pay-roll deductions. We had no pay-roll deductions originally and then we found out you could get pay-roll deductions to re-pay a loan. I can’t recall the exact wording but implied that you wouldn’t get it otherwise, the person wasn’t trustworthy. So everybody that came into that category we got pay-roll deductions for re-paying loans. Later on of course it was extended to savings through salary deductions too.
Do you remember whether you had to wait until Commonwealth pay-roll deductions were agreed? It was one of the things Dermot Ryan pushed through when he was at AFCUL. Have you got any idea when you got full pay-roll deductions?
KP: Oh full pay-roll deductions was only when Dermot got them. We had the repayment of loans earlier than that. I am not sure of the exact time, but it was at least a couple of years earlier.
You were already involved with the VCCA at that stage, or with the Catholic Association.
KP: The VCCA. Actually I am just trying to think. We weren’t with the VCCA when it was first formed. We went along and agreed to it but it wasn’t until another twelve months or so that we became involved. One of the Directors, Ray Bowyer, was our representative. He eventually left and I took over as our representative. But at that stage we had grown to one of the larger credit unions in Victoria. It was not very big by today’s standard, but it was quite something at that stage. I remember the first time I went along to see Leon Magree, who virtually was the VCCA at that stage, I went along to a meeting and was upstairs at the YCW Co-operative in A’Becket Street and you had to work between the rolls of carpet and everything into this little room which doubled as a storehouse, I think, and that is where the meeting was. So it wasn’t very luxurious premises.
What were your credit union headquarters like at that stage?
KP: At that stage we were still in the Union Office. We rented a part of the union’s office accommodation that was up at the top end of William Street, up near the Victoria Market. Later on from there we shared part of this building, the VCCA Building. We put in along with the ABC Credit Union and the VCCA when the building here, the VCCA headquarters, was built. We put in, I am not sure whether it was third equal contribution or what, but we got it built. We were here for a couple of years and then we decided it was too inconvenient for our members to come here, our business wasn’t growing, so we went up to A’Becket Street. Sorry, we had A’Becket Street first, then we moved down here and then we went back to the city.
So when you were using the Union Office, did you start a representative system for collection of dues and for all that sort of thing? Operating of the accounts?
KP: No, not really. It was all done through the mail. We had no official collectors or that. We might have had a few such things as the Directors or that, people would give them their money or loan applications or this like that. Virtually it was all done through the mail.
So how did you spread the credit union all over the State?
KP: We published a newsletter, which once again was initially roneoed and later on we got a girl to type it up on a computer which produced a far superior font and everything. Then we cut it up and pasted it up on the kitchen table. Then we sent it to a printer and got it printed. We distributed with the Union Newsletter. Word of mouth played a big part in the growth, because technicians naturally have a telephone available to them. We got a few of the people out of the technicians’ training school who took up the case and a lot of technicians pass through there and they helped promote the credit union quite considerably.
Can you remember when you had your first employee, and how many employees you got when you became Statewide?
KP: Our first employee was a woman named Gisla Kurts. She now works for Piccol. Later on our first Manager was Tom Smith, who was a technician. Then later Tom Smith was superseded by Gerald O’Byrne, who is now the Chairman of the Reserve Board.
So you certainly trained them well.
KP: Yes. I think Gerald was there for a few years. David Sambrown and then Peter Basdeo. At that stage I didn’t like the integrity of Peter Basdeo. I had an argument with the Board and the Board didn’t support me, they were quite happy with him, so I resigned. I got an offer to become a Director of Piccol, which was the Postal Institute Credit Co-operative Limited. Unfortunately, my judgement was right because about two years later Basdeo was charged with taking just short of a quarter of a million dollars, but the records were in such a mess that they never really knew how much he had got away with. They suspected that it was about five or six hundred thousand. My judgement was vindicated but unfortunately it didn’t help the credit union.
So when did you first take a position, you were delegate to the VCCA, but when did you first serve on the Board and how did that come about?
KP: Well in 1971 but I can’t remember the reason it came about. Ray Bowyer resigned. I think he might have left the then PMG to work outside and he didn’t have the time, so he resigned and they just looked for somebody to represent our credit union. I was probably Chairman at that stage so I won the job.
When you got down here, was the VCCA here in this building at that time?
KP: No it was in rented premises in Albert Road. It had just moved into rented premises in Albert Road. They were there most of the time that I was a Director. It was only towards the end that as I say we built the building here in Wellington Road and moved down here. I am not sure of the exact time, but it was probably the last eighteen months or something like that.
So when you became a Director can you remember at what stage things were at in the VCCA?
KP: Well it was quite a culture shock to become a Director of the VCCA because I thought I had got to know quite a bit about credit unions and about my own credit union in particular. But I found it was a whole new world down here really. Basically at that stage the VCCA was looking to form new credit unions. That was really the main thrust to go out and form new credit unions.
So who did that mainly?
KP: Well Leon Magree. He practically was the VCCA at that stage. Don Harris took over shortly after, but Leon continued to be employed by the VCCA.
Was Leon the Manager when you arrived?
KP: Yes.
How long did he stay as Manager? He stayed a while?
KP: Yes he had been at the VCCA since it was the Catholic Association. He stayed on a few years after Don Harris took over as General Manager.
So why did Don Harris become appointed rather than Leon Magree?
KP: Well it is hard to recollect the precise reasons, but I think the general thrust of it was that some of the Board, or the majority of the Board, didn’t think Leon was dynamic enough. They wanted somebody with a bit more go in them. They thought that Don had that.
How did Leon take it?
KP: Leon took it very well. Leon is a real gentleman and I think he takes everything very well. I don’t know how he felt privately, but he certainly never showed any antagonism and he worked well with Don. He threw himself into the job. His main aim was to get the credit unions moving.
Don Harris, how did he get on at that job?
KP: He did rather well. He was a much more volatile character than Leon. I think it is fair to say he did achieve a fair bit within the very limited resources, of course, that we had at that stage.
Was he there for the rest of the time that you were a Director?
KP: No, he was replaced by Geoff Conrad.
How did that come about, by the way?
KP: Once again dissatisfaction with Don Harris. They went out looking on the open market for a General Manager and Geoff Conrad came to light. Later on Geoff Conrad was sacked.
How did that come about?
KP: Dissatisfaction again. I think credit union Directors are difficult to please. But there was a fair amount of dissatisfaction with Geoff’s performance as perceived by the credit unions in general.
What problems did he have as a Manager, do you think? What do you think his weaknesses were?
KP: His weaknesses were probably, once again back to the Leon Magree stage, he wasn’t dynamic enough. He didn’t go out and promote credit unions. He wasn’t a bad administrator but he wasn’t a PR man, or anything like that.
How did the various Managers that came through there, the three of them for instance, how did they differ? What were their strengths and weaknesses?
KP: Leon was very thorough, but not very aggressive. Don Harris was fairly aggressive, but certainly not as thorough. Geoff Conrad was certainly not aggressive. He was a reasonable administrator, but later on and we didn’t know at the time he had quite a drinking problem. I think that limited his performance quite a lot.
So who came next on the management side?
KP: I left at the Annual Meeting after we got rid of Geoff Conrad. It proved too much of an emotional strain for me and I didn’t feel like continuing on with it.
Did you have to give him his marching orders so to speak?
KP: Yes, in this building. It was quite a traumatic night actually. The Board passed a motion. The Board asked him to leave the room, debated it for a while and passed the motion that we dismiss him, and as Chairman I had to go and convey the message to him. I am afraid he went quite off the deep end and it was quite a traumatic experience really.
So you resigned shortly after that?
KP: Well my term was up at the next election, so I didn’t stand for election.
You were a Director when the VCCA moved into this building. Were you the Chairman?
KP: No, not when we moved in. It was my last twelve months here I was Chairman. I think Bob Moffatt was Chairman at that stage, when we moved in.
Can you remember the events leading up to moving into this building?
KP: Some parts of them. I can remember there was great debate on the Board as to where the headquarters should be of the VCCA. The main prompting was for a city office. Graham Benson got some consultants and they sort of drew a circle and said it had to be in this area. So we looked for suitable sites and this came up as a site that was available which fitted the criteria.
Graham Benson was Chairman at that time was he?
KP: I am not sure if he was Chairman at that time. But even after he ceased being Chairman, Graham still had a considerable influence.
Can you remember the early days, did you go to credit union Schools?
KP: Yes, I went to the Warburton Schools before the Chalet burnt down. I think that they probably played a huge part in creating my credit union philosophy. What is more, it wasn’t just what you learnt there, it was the contact with people, the camaraderie that developed there. It was influential for years and it is one of the things that I regret these days. I know you couldn’t have the type of School, the subjects and that that were taught, they would probably all be considered wrong and all the ideas would be wrong. But the socialising and contact with people that developed I still maintain many of those contacts. I think that played a great influence on my outlook on credit unions.
Did you ever go to any of the Newport Schools?
KP: I went to one of the Newport Schools I think it was 1969. It is the one with this photograph of everybody attending that school. I have got the photo somewhere and I think it was 1969. That was also quite influential. In fact that was considered very sophisticated compared to Warburton. Warburton was considered much more grass roots. Newport was the pinnacle of credit union ideas and philosophy at that time.
What about Chapters, were you involved with them at all?
KP: Yes. Keith Glover who was on the VCCA at that stage, came round to the VCCA and tried to form a Melbourne Chapter. I went along to the formation meeting. Later on after Keith left I was the Chairman of the Chapter for a couple of years but I got out of that. I got back into the Melbourne Chapter a few years ago, about three of four years ago, and I was Chairman of that for one or two years and I have been on the Committee ever since, up until the current year when I stepped down from the Committee because some time this year I intend to retire from work. So I thought I would start cutting my ties with those sorts of things.
When you first became involved with the Melbourne Chapter where did it meet?
KP: It met up in the dining room at Russell Telephone Exchange. I think that was our first place that we met. Certainly most of our early meetings were in the dining room at Russell Telephone Exchange. It has met in various places later. The Rathdowney Street headquarters of Australia Post and for quite a lot of years now it has been meeting at the RACV, which is an excellent location. Very good facilities, central and really an excellent location for the Chapter.
I notice that at one stage in the proceedings, there were Chapters all over the State. There was a terrific amount of Chapters. How did that come about?
KP: It came about because the VCCA took an active role in promoting Chapters, in setting them up.
So who exactly was the person, or persons, behind that?
KP: I think it was Don Harris, but I am not sure of that. I think the person who did most of the leg work was Gordon Farrer, but I think the idea was actually Don Harris’.
There is another area which we haven’t touched at all as yet. What about the setting up of a central banking system? Also the setting of the Stabilisation Fund, Savings Protection Fund?
KP: Yes, I was on the VCCA when we set up Central. I didn’t play much part in it because I didn’t really know very much about it. I accepted it was a good thing and supported it. But I didn’t really know a great amount about it. We had, my own credit union, we probably did play a part in it because we lent money to our sister credit unions. The Postal Technicians had developed, they started with Queensland. Victoria was second. Then they developed credit unions in all States. We lent money to our South Australian counterpart to help them develop. It was probably quite illegal what we did.
End Tape 1A: 3662 Words: 1 hour 25 minutes.
10 FEBRUARY 1992: VCCA3: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO KEN PLOOG
I just cut you off there at the end of the tape, but you were talking about the money across the border into South Australia.
KP: Anyway doing that upset a few people at AFCUL. I think the Victorian Central had got off the ground at that stage. But it probably, along with a few others such as you mentioned the Police and all that, emphasised the need for an AFCUL Central and played a bit part in moving it along probably a little bit quicker than it might otherwise have done.
Who did it upset up at AFCUL?
KP: I think it was Dermot Ryan.
How did you get on with Dermot?
KP: Quite well. I had a few arguments with Dermot, but I liked him. He certainly was not a polished gentleman, but he was very sincere and he did quite a lot for the Victorian credit unions. One that particularly comes to mind was when he got stamp tax exemption. Credit unions, if they charged more than 9 per cent on loans, had to pay a stamp tax. Dermot went along to Henry Bolte, the then Premier, and I think they both spoke the same language. Dermot came away with exemption for credit unions. I can’t remember some of the others. I know that later on when credit unions got general tax exemption, he had played a part in the lead up to that. He did achieve quite a lot for credit unions.
He and Vince Martin negotiated that.
KP: Yes, that is right. It was announced down at the AFCUL meeting. Frank Crean, I think, announced down at the AFCUL meeting in Hobart. It was quite a memorable meeting because the one thing that sticks in my mind from that was the Tasmanian Minister, fortunately I can’t remember his name, he came along to open the meeting. He started reading this speech about the number of pine trees in Tasmania and everything else and the noise level got louder and louder and it wasn’t until he finished that somebody reminded him that he had two meetings to open that day and he had read the wrong speech to the wrong meeting.
Wouldn’t have been Dermot that reminded him would it?
KP: I am not sure now. But it wasn’t very funny at the time, but it was quite funny to look back on.
You said you had a couple of arguments with Dermot, can you remember what about?
KP: I can’t really remember the details of them. Part of it was involved with the separate association we had for Postal and Telecom Credit Unions. Dermot didn’t particularly like that because I think he saw it as a bit of a threat or expending of resources when everything should have all gone through AFCUL. That was certainly involved. But they were arguments on ideas, never on personalities.
There were a number of organisations, I mean the Teachers’ had an organisation, the Police had an organisation of Police Credit Unions. Not only that there was also the Electricity people
KP: Yes. We were probably the first in those, the Postal and Telecom Credit Unions. We set ours up I think it was at the Newport School in 1969, when Harry Jacobus, who was the Manager of the New South Wales Technicians Credit Union, which was Communications and is now Endeavour, it was his idea. He worked for it and Len Hedger from Sun State in Queensland, they worked together and the seeds were sown in 1969. I think we set it up in 1970 and it is still going.
Did you hear about, or can you tell me, about the arguments there were between Sun State, as it is now, and Credit Union Australia, with Len Hedger?
KP: Well I never really got to the bottom of what the arguments were about. All I know is that the two just couldn’t agree, the Manager of Credit Union Australia, Jack Harvey I think from memory, and Jimmy Green who was a Manager and Len Hedger. I never really knew what the argument was about all I know is they just couldn’t get in the same room without arguing.
Well I gather that they were competing for membership. But did the same thing happen in Victoria? Was there a competition for membership here?
KP: No, not really. How the credit union I am now with, Piccol, got started is that then PTTA, which is now the Telecom-CPS Credit Union, that was only for members of the Technicians Union. Many other people, when they saw what the credit union could do, they wanted to join. The Postal Institute said that they were willing to sponsor a credit union. It was probably one of the great mistakes we made, that instead of opening the bond to everybody, which of course happened later, we helped the PTTA Credit Union, helped them set up the Postal Institute, Piccol, Credit Union. In fact, Ray Palmer, who had been the first Secretary at PTTA and was later on a Director, became the Manager, the initial Manager, at Piccol. The two co-existed side by side for many years. In fact it is one of the things that I believe helped their success, they both grew very well, was the fact that they had competition. It was friendly competition, it wasn’t cut-throat competition, but it meant both credit unions had to keep on their toes to give the members good value for money. They were very attractive to all people and so they both succeeded.
Has Credit Union Australia got into Victoria at all?
KP: There were some moves for them to get in with the Fire Fighters, but I don’t know what happened on that. I know Andrew McKeckland was negotiating to take over the Fire Fighters Union down here. That is where he came from, his background. But I haven’t heard what happened on it.
Well I should actually take you back to the VCCA. The setting up of the Central, was that set up while you were a Director?
KP: Yes. Very early in the piece when I was a Director. As I said I really didn’t understand much what was going on.
Who was the main mover behind it?
KP: Graham Benson and Leon Magree, I think. Certainly Graham in those early days was the main mover behind most of the things that went on.
Can you remember there being any competition between Dermot, he set up a Central at AFCUL as well the one that was in the various Leagues, do you remember his Central being in competition with yours in Victoria?
KP: No, not actually competition. I can’t remember much about any arguments between them, but I know there was a bit of sour grapes at the time. But I really can’t remember too much in the way of detail.
In your involvement with AFCUL and you were a delegate for a number of years, were you a delegate at the time that Dermot was forced to resign?
KP: No. I’d ceased my involvement by that stage.
Do you know the circumstances about his resignation from a Victorian point of view?
KP: I did at the time, but I have forgotten them now.
Yes. Because it didn’t happen while Graham Benson was President, it didn’t happen until his own protégé, to some extent, Jack Coyne, became President.
KP: Yes, I knew Jack and that but I didn’t really take that much interest in the politics at that stage.
It was said at the time that Dermot had lost support in all States as a Chief Executive Officer of AFCUL. So who in Victoria would be against him?
KP: I know Peter Hodgkinson was one. I think Graham Benson might have by that stage.
What was the problem?
KP: To the best of my recollection the main problem was the deficit of AFCUL. There were other things too, but I think that was the main one that I can recollect. AFCUL was running at a deficit and looked like continuing to go down hill.
There was nothing about Dermot being high-handed in the way he lent money?
KP: Yes, I think there was. It is sort of coming back now. They considered that Dermot was a law unto himself and that he had to be put in place. But as I said, I wasn’t directly involved at that stage.
So who was?
KP: Peter Hodgkinson. I think Ralph Lewis was another one. Graham Benson, Don Harris. They were probably the main players that I can recall in Victoria.
So I don’t know who is taking part in this at the present moment. So who do you think I should best address those questions too? Graham Benson is not going to be interviewed for this oral history. So who do you think I could talk to?
KP: Les Harcourt might have a good idea what was going on then. Of course Peter Hodgkinson. Peter was a great thorn in the side and took a great interest in AFCUL in those early days. He was a great thorn in their side, particularly in Dermot’s side.
Do you remember the arguments they used to get into over the Foundation?
KP: Yes, I remember they argued, but I can’t remember too much of the detail.
Were you at Dermot’s farewell in Canberra?
KP: No, I wasn’t there.
He called out at one stage, he had obviously had a few, ‘Peter, where are you? That ding dong we had tonight,’ he said, ‘that was something again.‘
KP: Dermot was a rough diamond, he really didn’t give you the impression of being a Chief Executive Officer. Sometimes he used to front up at the Warburton Schools and Sunday morning he was a sight for sore eyes, very often, he had been up drinking all the night.
Did you ever see him with any fisticuffs at the Warburton?
KP: No, I heard about them, but I never actually saw them.
Did you hear about the one where the Reverend Bob Clayton was involved?
KP: I vaguely remember it, but I can’t remember any details.
I wonder who might be able to tell me about that? I believe he was actually trying to stop the fight.
KP: I don’t know now.
Is Bob Clayton still around?
KP: Well I haven’t heard of him for years, so I don’t know really.
Did you know him?
KP: Yes.
What was he like?
KP: He was a pretty wild man. He wasn’t what you would expect from a Church Minister.
What Church was he from?
KP: I think he was the Church of England. He had a very good rapport with people and that. Particularly at that stage of what the image of what was expected of a Church Minister he didn’t fit the mould at all.
I have a picture of him and he didn’t wear clerical garb or anything, I don’t think.
KP: I think I might have seen him about once with a clerical collar on. Most of the time he had an open-necked shirt.
Now what other area that we haven’t covered? The Stabilisation Fund?
KP: The Stabilisation Fund, yes I was here when the VCCA’s was set up.
Were you one of the movers behind it?
KP: No, not really. Once again I went along with it but I wasn’t the driving force. I was on the Stabilisation Fund for a while when Brendan Griffin looked after it as the Executive Officer of it. The main thing I can recall about that was the Castlemaine Credit Union, uncovered the Castlemaine Credit Union without knowing it had been financing the Manager’s quarter horse stud. That was quite a scandal at the time. Anyway it was all ultimately sorted out. I don’t know what happened to the Manager, I am not sure whether he went to jail or what. The Stabilisation Fund did some reasonable work but of course it had no teeth. If a credit union didn’t want to be investigated it just told it to nick off and shut its doors to the VCCA people.
Did any credit unions go down the drain? Did members loose money?
KP: Not to my recollection.
So how did you manage to stabilise all the credit unions that were in problems?
KP: Well mainly just persuasion. They persuaded a few of them to merge.
Can you remember a few?
KP: No, not really.
You weren’t directly involved? Were you on the Board?
KP: Yes, I was on the Board, but I wasn’t an expert in that field by any means.
Did the Fund have a Committee? Were you on that?
KP: I was on the Committee yes.
You were directly involved.
KP: Yes, but Brendan Griffin and Phillip Elliot were the two main workers on it. They would be the ones who would know the history of what actually went on there. Les Harcourt, again, may make some contributions there. My memory of some of these things slips.
Were you on any overseas trips at all?
KP: Yes, I went to the 1973 World Council in St Louis, just as an observer, not as a delegate.
Dermot Ryan wasn’t there was he. Was Ken Miller there?
KP: Ken Miller was there yes.
How did you get on with him?
KP: Quite well. I liked Ken Miller. I was certainly impressed with Ken at the World Council meetings. Some of the other delegates from other countries seemed to get a bit hot and flustered, Ken had a very calming manner and put things in a very straightforward manner. I thought he performed very well there.
At St Louis, did you also go to Madison?
KP: Yes, I went to Madison and had a look at the World Council headquarters and CUNA. It was just as a tourist really, but it was quite educational. It was very, very impressive. At that stage credit unions were just starting to grow in Australia. They had grown but they hadn’t really reached much in the way of maturity and to get some idea of what could develop was quite influential.
Did you go anywhere on the way there or the way back? Did you go to Fiji or anywhere?
KP: We went to Fiji on the way there and we came back via London, Leningrad, Moscow, Japan, Hong Kong. At that stage, 1973, Russia was a lot different to what it is now. Although there was nothing in the way of credit unions, it was a very interesting to have a look at it then. Of course we had a look at the Hong Kong people, the Hong Kong credit unions on the way through there on the way home. That again was quite an eye-opener to see the conditions. In Hong Kong at that stage the credit unions were operating right at the grass roots. They were doing pretty well in very difficult circumstances.
So is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you can think of?
KP: The only other personality that we didn’t cover, again going back to the early days, was Stan Arneil. One of the things that grieved me greatly was when Stan and the official movement fell out, because Stan did play a part in inspiring our credit union, and I am sure he played a fairly substantial role in the early days in the development of credit unions in Australia. Forgetting any rights or wrongs of the argument, I think it was a sad day when he fell out with the credit unions.
Well some of them fell out with him, to a certain extent? Where did you stand in the insurance split?
KP: Oh, I think I went along with the official movement. The arguments became a bit blurred over time.
Stan Arneil has also refused to be recorded by me for the New South Wales Association. I think it is more to do with the fact that he wouldn’t have anything to do with the New South Wales Association than that he didn’t want to be recorded. But he has spoken to me on the phone and I think he is very bitter about the way it was handled.
KP: Yes, I believe he is quite bitter. As I say, I don’t really know the full details, but at the time I can remember thinking that he was treated fairly harshly. But that is history now I suppose.
But several people have said to me that Ken Miller’s method of operations was to decide before hand and push a particular line, rather than letting a meeting decide.
KP: Yes, well I know in my early days at AFCUL we discovered that. Victoria was probably off-side most of the time in those early days and we found that New South Wales, and it probably was Ken Miller, had very definite view.
You must have had more to do with AFCUL, over a longer period than you were actually in the Chair. There is another aspect as well, the position re you and Ian Larssen.
KP: Ian followed me in as Chairman here.
So how did that come about?
KP: That came out because I quit. I don’t know how Ian became Chairman, but I quit because I was fairly disillusioned. Ian is a Director on Piccol with me now and we have been in very close contact over many years. We don’t have any disagreements or anything.
It occurs to me that that business of the Convention Centre at Jubilee Lake, when did that actually start?
KP: That started while I was here at the VCCA. It started before I became Chairman. I started when the Warburton Chalet burnt down. Graham Benson got an option on the Chalet, but before it was exercised he went looking for a suitable site for a Convention Centre. It was decided that Daylesford was a suitable site. It was on the right side from Tullamarine, Warburton was on the wrong side. It was within a hour or hour and a half’s travelling and everything. An option was secured, it was Crown Land actually, on Jubilee Lake to develop it. The consultant, Turner, can’t think of his first name now, was engaged. He developed plans for it. The only trouble was that there was never any satisfactory financial planning done for it. I have often looked back and wondered. You see so many of that type of thing around now, I think it would have succeeded, if it could have been built. It was just that the financial planning just wasn’t done. Just how it was going to be financed, the cost ran away with it, etc., etc. The whole thing just about brought the VCCA down in the long run.
Can you remember if Graham Benson was looking at other places up there? The main reason why in New South Wales we have got any papers at all from Victoria and Queensland and everywhere else, was because of Berry Calverley. In Berry’s papers which we have in the Historical Co-operative there, he has got all sorts of bits and pieces. You pick it up and you think what is that? One of the things that I picked up was a brochure for a hotel at Warburton, but it is not the Chalet, it is somewhere else. Were they thinking of buying a place there?
KP: There were a number of places looked at. I can’t recall any names. There was one near Warburton, which in fact I don’t know what happened to it, but it wasn’t actually in the town, it was out a bit.
I think it was called the Warburton Lodge.
KP: Something like that yes. There were a number of places looked at. The only two names I can remember were the Chalet and the Jubilee Lake.
What about Teledata, were you involved in any of the amalgamations with them and the purchase of Teledata?
KP: No, that was Ian Larssen. He was in the Chair then and he was involved. By then I had opted out of the VCCA at that stage. In fact at that stage I was probably doing my best to keep out of being entangled in any way.
Now what else have we not covered? I am sure there must be something else but I can’t think of it at this time.
KP: I will go away from here and think of a lot of things.
I will be down here for another two weeks after this week, so if you have got anything further to contribute, we should be able to do something about that.
KP: Well if I think of anything I will certainly take that up. As I said, I see Ian Larssen pretty frequently, Ian is due in tomorrow, so if I have thought of anything by then I will convey it through him.
Well your contributions to credit unions, you put a lot of time into them as a volunteer, do you think it has been worth it? Have you any regrets?
KP: No, not really. I think I have learnt a lot through my involvement in credit unions. I probably haven’t gained much in the way of promotion at work, or anything, because at one stage it did hold me back while I was Chairman of the VCCA. I was putting so much time into the credit unions, it held me back at work. But from a personal point of view, I think it has played a big part in my education and understanding of the world, particularly the financial world. Many of the people that I sort of grew up with and technicians with me, the financial world is a foreign country to them. They are now approaching retirement and in retirement and that, and they are suddenly faced with this alien world.
End Tape 1B: 3667 Words: 1 hour 20 minutes.