10 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO WALLACE (WALLY) WINTER
Mr Winter, where were you born and when?
WW: I was born in Portland, Victoria, in February 1942.
You grew up round there?
WW: Spent the first six years in that area. My father was grocer with a large chain at that time. He had been transferred down there. I spent six years and then moved to Echuca, on the Murray. I spent all my schooling years in that location before my parents decided to move back to Melbourne.
What sort of influence do you think you got from your father?
WW: I think a very strong influence, both from my father and my mother. They were working-class people. I am one of six children. They saw they had a role in life to provide for those children and did everything to provide us with a good, harmonious household and moral standing in the community.
Was there a religious influence? A political influence?
WW: Neither really.
Sporting?
WW: Not to any great degree at all.
If you asked me that question I would probably have to argue for negative influence.
WW: Well that is probably right with us to. But they did provide that stable family background. They were very conscious of their fellow man around them, so they participated in the community and had a good range of friends and a great range of interest in life. Probably went through life on an even plane with nothing startling one way or the other.
So where did you go to school?
WW: I went to school at Echuca Technical College, which it was either there or a high school, no other choices. I chose college because I thought a trade might suit me best, only to discover later on that I preferred a profession.
So what did you like and dislike at school?
WW: I wasn’t a great fan of competitive sport, although I did enjoy swimming and I was prepared to compete in swimming. Otherwise I was a fairly good student and probably excelled more in the English, History and Mathematics side of the curriculum.
Where did you go when you left school?
WW: Well at that stage my parents, who were originally from Melbourne, their families were in Melbourne, decided with six children, the first five of which were boys, and they weren’t land-owners, as I said my father was a grocer, my mother felt it was time to move back to the city so that future opportunities were there for her children. So it was at the time I was leaving school that they decided to move back here. My elder brother had left school and he had had difficulty getting suitable work, satisfying work in the town. So they thought they had better not put the rest of us through that and they went back to Melbourne. It was a great excuse for my mum to move back to the city where she preferred to be over the country towns. So on returning here I sought work of course. In those days it wasn’t too hard to get a job and I commenced work as a junior messenger boy with the Herald and Weekly Times in Melbourne. I got a job there over the Christmas period on a casual basis and then was offered permanent work as the new year started.
So how did you first hear about credit unions?
WW: I heard about credit unions probably in the late 1960s. I had worked at the Herald all of that time, from about 1958 on to then. The credit union was formed in the Herald, but of course the newspaper industry was somewhat heavily influenced by about five trade unions, and the five trade unions at the Herald joined together and decided to get a credit union going. I rejected participation in any form of that credit union because of its trade union influence, as did a lot of other people. Fortunately they saw, the leaders of that credit union saw, that was creating an undue influence on employees and I think within the first twelve months of operation changed its name from a numonic of the trade unions into the Herald Employees Credit Union and the credit union took off. But at that stage I was leaving the Herald. I took a position offered by my uncle to manage his office, he was share portfolio management. Having been with the Herald for about fourteen years I was with him for six months when he went broke. I am a person who prefers some sort of stability in his life, and that is probably the influence of my parents too, so I looked for alternative work. Through an employment agency I was offered the opportunity to be interviewed by the SEC Credit Union, which was just over twelve months old at that stage. So up until that time I would have to say that I knew very little, if anything about credit unions. But my work had been involved in the financial side of business and the commercial side of business and this offered a job in the commercial side of business. So I thought, well I would give it a try and see what the interview came out with.
So you actually was employed by a credit union before you joined one.
WW: Yes I was employed by a credit union before I joined one. As I said the SEC Credit Union was twelve months old. I knew very little about it. The interview was a disaster not from my point of view, but the person at that credit union at the time who interviewed me didn’t ask very much about me, he attempted to tell me what he had done in the twelve months the credit union had been going. So I went away from that interview thinking what was it all about. I still didn’t know what credit unions were about, except they seemed to me have the right message, it seemed to be stable and of course while it was not controlled by the State Electricity Commission itself, it seemed to offer some stability that I was anxious to get back into. My first child had just been born and I needed to have that stability back in my life.
So what did position did you get at the SEC Credit Union?
WW: Well those were the old days in 1971. Computers were in in a limited form in commercial business and there were ledger machines handling the members’ savings and loans. I had the illustrious title of Ledger Supervisor, which ultimately became Account Supervisor.
Were there any ledger operators?
WW: Yes there were two ledger operators, one spoke very broken English she was Spanish by descent, and the other one seemed to break down as often as the machine did.
So when was your real introduction to credit union philosophy, so to speak?
WW: Well the very first day I joined. I would have to say probably the man who has influenced me most of all in the field of credit unions is a gentleman by the name of Gordon Farrer. You may have come across his name in your interview process mentioned by other people. Gordon was a true philosopher of the old school. He himself had been involved in co-operatives for some time, obviously influenced by the Founding Fathers the likes of Raiffeisen, Filene, Bergengren and later on by Father Ganey of Fiji. Gordon was the first Secretary-Manager of the SEC Credit Union. Because the day I started was the week commencing their first Annual Meeting, no-one wanted to show me any work, they were busy organising the forthcoming meeting.
Was it Gordon Farrer who interviewed you in the first place?
WW: No it wasn’t. It was the Office Manager of the credit union who interviewed me. So Gordon was fairly free at the time and I was asked to spend some time with him. I did, I probably spent the better part of that week hearing the message of credit unions. It was a very dedicated message that Gordon had to give. He was a real people person, he understood people. He understood their needs and he totally believed in credit union ideals, or co-operative ideals. Through all of my career I have realised that that had a great influence on me and the time that I knew him, while he retained employment with the credit union, and ultimately when he came on to the VCCA to do a lot of development work for new and developing credit unions.
He was friendly with Dermot Ryan wasn’t he?
WW: Yes he was very friendly with Dermot Ryan and Stan Arneil and a lot of the people from Sydney. He had been down to the La Trobe Valley region of Victoria and had been heavily involved with the development down there of the Morwell Trading Co-operative and ultimately the Morwell Credit Union, which has finally become La Trobe Country Credit Union.
So he was involved with Graham Benson as well?
WW: Yes he was involved with Graham Benson and lots of the old school of Victoria. Pretty hard to bring some of the names to mind now, but they were great influences. The Don Harris’ of this world and a whole lot of others.
When did you first meet Don Harris?
WW: Probably fairly early in my career. It probably would have been within the first twelve months of joining. I went to a School at Warburton which the VCCA, or the Victorian Movement, ran with some regularity up there.
Do you remember what year that was?
WW: Probably 1972 that I first went to a School there.
It was still there, it hadn’t burnt down?
WW: It hadn’t burnt down. I went to three there, before they seemed to cease the Schools there because of the burning down.
Yes, I have your name actually on Berry Calverley’s list of attendees for 1972.
WW: Well the memory is not too bad is it. They were a great influence because I saw a great deal of co-operation and I learnt a lot. There were some very heavy sessions out of session hours and would go on into the midnights and ones and two o’clocks in the morning. Listening to a lot of people who had been involved from grass roots level for some time and I think I was astute enough to pick up the good and the bad.
Can you tell any stories about those Warburton Schools?
WW: No I can’t. Not on anyone in particular, I don’t think, not even on myself. Except I know on many occasions I had a sore head and Mass on the Sunday morning was quite a sight to behold. Not only were there sorry heads amongst the congregation, but the Father who had been up there for the previous night wasn’t too good either.
You are referring to Father Ganey?
WW: No not Father Ganey. There was a priest in Victoria, in fact he was Industrial Chaplain down in SEC in the La Trobe Valley region who on more than one occasion was up there to look after the faithful on the Sunday morning and he really did enjoy his Irish whiskey.
I can’t remember his name off-hand, although I am sure it is on the Warburton School stationery.
WW: I am sure you will pick it up. I can’t remember his name. I can vividly recall him, but I can’t remember his name. He was a priest with the character of the past.
What about the Anglicans? Do you remember Bob Clayton?
WW: Yes I do remember Bob Clayton, that name is quite familiar as well. He was a bit of a renegade. I think he was an Industrial Chaplain too at one stage down the Valley or for the SEC.
Have you got any Dermot Ryan stories?
WW: No, I never really knew Dermot. I knew him, but I was never close to him.
I mean from Warburton?
WW: No not at all. Bear in mind I was a new boy on the block at that stage and I was learning. I certainly wasn’t in the inner sanctum at all.
Did you ever go to any of the Newport Schools?
WW: No I didn’t go to the Newport Schools. I think they were a little before my time. I think there may have been one in 1971. I do know a couple of Directors of the SEC Credit Union who had been to them.
Did you see anything of the insurance split round about that time?
WW: No, I only heard of it. Again I wasn’t in a position of authority in my own credit union. It seems to me that it continues in the background today.
Well some people would like to have it that way. However, I think we can safely bury that. I was round interviewing John Granata a little while ago and he gave me a pen.
WW: Really? I have had other bits and pieces from them, but never got a pen.
He came in after that period. He doesn’t know anything about it. He replaced Stan Arneil.
WW: Yes I understand he certainly wasn’t involved, but I think in earlier days particularly had a hang over from it.
I suppose that was the case. So you are working at the SEC Credit Union, what do you remember of that with Gordon Farrer? Can you remember the development of the credit union?
WW: Most certainly. I believe Gordon set the foundation, or the skeleton foundation, for the success of the SEC Credit Union. When I joined it was fifteen months old and they had just over 2,000 members. Now of course we are talking about a credit union with 46,000 shareholding members and about another 10,000 non-members, or associate members, which are principally children and close relatives of members. So it has grown. It had tremendous growth in a short space of time and again because I believe Gordon was the major influence. I don’t denigrate the Board in any way, because I believe that the Foundation Board, which was still in place when I joined, was a very committed Board and very committed to the credit union philosophy. At the same time, right from the beginning, they adopted very prudential standards. I have always believed that the two, provided they are in balance, can work very well together.
What do you think were the real strengths and weaknesses of Gordon Farrer?
WW: Well as I said the real strength was that I believe he was a people person, he understood people, he understood their needs. He was totally committed to the concept of people co-operating together and felt that undoubtedly could be a success if handled properly.
Was there anything that he wasn’t good at?
WW: He didn’t have administrative skills. We had a few funny instances in our credit union. I mean he would do the field, given that the SEC workforce was scattered right throughout the State of Victoria. The SEC themselves were somewhat prime movers in the establishment of the SEC Credit Union. The credit union had access to employees in their workplace to spread the gospel of the credit union, or the gospel of credit union philosophy and that was Gordon’s forte. So he would do the rounds encouraging people, talking to groups of people, individuals, to join the credit union and of course he would come back with his pockets full of money for share moneys, applications for membership, and deposits. It took some time on more than one occasion to work out who they belonged to. However, no member lost any money as a result of it. We ultimately were able to work it out. We would get forms back unsigned. “Don’t worry about it,” was Gordon’s response to it. In actual fact, and it is a bit of a laugh in our place, we do have some of the very early loan applications and loan agreements that were never signed by the member borrower. However, none of the loans fell over, they paid them all.
It wasn’t until later that other loans fell over.
WW: That’s right other loans fell over later, but Gordon was able to create amongst people, members of the credit union, the feeling that they belonged to the credit union and therefore they had an obligation to their fellow members.
I have heard a lot about him, but of course I have never met him. It is probably the fact that he died that some of them decided to get me in. They asked the National Library to recommend somebody and they did. I think it was his death that finally precipitated that.
WW: Well we have said for years we should do something, jot some of these things down. We should have done so before he died. In fact we still have one Foundation Director who is still on our Board. He played a great part in influencing me and my commitment to the ideals of co-operation.
Who was he?
WW: Les Harcourt, I believe you are interviewing him. Howard Betts was a Foundation Director and the first General Manager of the SEC Credit Union and he is still alive. The very first Loans Officer of the credit union, in fact he started on the day the credit union was formed and he had my job, I in fact filled his place when he was promoted to Loans Officer, he is still alive. I think probably the Historical Society has prompted us in some way to get those people, sit down with them and record some information from them. The man who was the first Loans Officer, his name was George Harris, was a blacksmith by trade. He worked in the State Electricity Commission managing canteen operations and they seconded him over to the credit union because of his involvement in social clubs within the Commission. George, in all my experience, is the best Loans Officer I have ever have ever come across. Again someone who understood people and who was able to help them through any financial needs or crisis they had. He had the ability if a person came in and they were in crisis, they had been stupid, George would take them down to the lowest possible ebb in private and could reduce them to tears. But before they left his office they had retained their dignity. He had provided them with the help but also set in place for them plans to raise themselves out of the mire they got into. They were forever his friends. I think that is a rare quality to have in Lending Officers.
Yes Sydney Credit Union had one like that. He started as a labourer out of Sydney. That was Barry Holmes. I don’t know whether you ever met him?
WW: No, I don’t know his name. But it tells us a number of things doesn’t it. You don’t have to be a highly qualified person with a great deal of experience in financial affairs, all you have to do is know people.
Yes fascinating. I wonder how much of that he got from Gordon Farrer or whether he had it in him? Who was it saw it in him?
WW: I believe he would have got some from Gordon, but George was old enough at that stage to have had the experience of life. There wouldn’t have been great external influences on him. I believe that the man who probably did see it in him was Les Harcourt, who I have mentioned before. A Foundation Director who became the Chairman of the SEC Credit Union for many years and continues on as a Director of the credit union today. He has been there for its twenty-one odd years of operation. Les has a reputation for brashness, but he has a heart of gold. Again, I have used the expression before, he understands people and he understands the needs of people. He has been involved in the credit union movement, the co-operative movement before the SEC Credit Union. Was involved for many years in the broader credit union movement, that is outside his own credit union. He is a man of great perception and he would have seen in George Harris the skills that were necessary to get him into the area of loans.
At SEC Credit Union, who was it who spread it all over the State? Where did it first start?
WW: Well if we go back in time, my understanding of the history is that the State Electricity Commission management saw the need for a credit union for their employees.
Do you know if anybody had got to them first? Was it the Registrar? Was it Stan Arneil?
WW: No I think we can go back before then. The State Electricity Commission itself was a big family concern. I mean it was structured under Sir John Monash and they had all sorts of things in place. Amongst its structure was a whole series of social clubs and those social clubs were helped by the Commission themselves. They were subsidised to a degree and they had all sort of social activities and social competitions. One of them was a very good cricket competition and annually they played the Sydney County Council Cricket Club. That organisation had a very successful credit union operating at that time. So there was some interchange of ideas and some influence came on. Because the social clubs were somewhat sponsored by the SEC, management was involved in those levels. So management of the SEC saw the need to establish a credit union for their employees. In so doing, having got a lot of information as I understand from Sydney County Council, called in the VCCA to advise them on starting a credit union. But while they were responsible for its formation, once it was formed and they were responsible for the Foundation Board, Inaugural Board, they never exercised any influence over the credit union from then on. The credit union was self-sufficient in so far as it paid its way, despite the fact the Commission gave them premises out of which to operate.
When you were working at the SEC Credit Union had the Electrical Credit Unions Association been formed?
WW: There had been one formed and it went outside the bounds of the Electrical Association as I understood, at that stage. It took in other government credit unions. But it never really became prominent in Victoria. We had been asked to join it on numerous occasions and decided it didn’t offer us any real benefit, though it was very active in New South Wales.
John Gormley is one of the first people to come to mind. Have you ever met him?
WW: Yes on numerous occasions. I know John and his wife June very well.
He was going on about how they should do the SEC Credit Union history, so they eventually appointed him to do it. He is doing it now.
WW: Is that right. He is retired isn’t he?
Yes he is retired. So he has got the job and he is doing it thoroughly I am sure. I have given him a bit of instruction. He is not a stranger to recording, because he did all that for AFCUL for all those years. He used to record all their meetings.
WW: Really. I didn’t realise that he was the man.
Him and Dave Lawlor. Anyway that is off the subject. So when did you first become involved with the VCCA?
WW: Originally in 1976. In 1976 I was asked to join the Board of the VCCA to fill a casual vacancy. Les Harcourt, whom I have mentioned before, had been a Director of the Association for some time and he decided that he had had his run at that stage. They were looking for someone to fill in, in fact they asked in our organisation first if anyone was interested in doing it. I indicated that I would be and I seemed to be acceptable to the Board of the VCCA at the time and hence I got appointed.
Was there a Supervisory Committee at the VCCA? Were you ever involved with one?
WW: I don’t believe there was a Supervisory Committee at that stage, and no I wasn’t involved with one.
Was there a Supervisory Committee at the SEC Credit Union?
WW: Yes. Right from day one there had always been a Supervisory Committee with the SEC Credit Union. Ultimately it became known as the Internal Audit Committee. They were members of the credit union who volunteered their role.
Did they have an oversight over the Board, or were they strictly looking at what the employees were doing?
WW: They had an oversight over both.
Did they attend Board meetings?
WW: No they didn’t attend Board meetings. They got all Minutes of Board meetings, Board Reports, had access to the Board and usually, for posterity, issued Reports to the Board following their inspections. Annually they reported to the members on their findings and sought election by the members.
Does the Internal Audit Committee continue at SEC?
WW: No last year it was decided that given the size of the credit union, the job was too big for a Supervisory Committee cum Internal Audit Committee. It was very complex in computer systems of course and very large to monitor in a volunteer capacity. So they recommended to the Board that the Board look at the appointment of an Internal Auditor with a Audit Committee reporting to the Board. Steps were taken last year, with the approval of the members, to proceed on that basis and an Internal Auditor was appointed in November last year.
When you arrived as a new Director at the VCCA the Chairman would have been Ian Larssen?
WW: No Ken Ploog in actual fact.
You served under a number of Chairmen over the years. How did they differ?
WW: Well of course back in the 1970s things were different, if I can just digress slightly and get around to answering that question. I arrived here at the Board meeting on the first occasion and realised very quickly that the Board seemed to be divided into two factions. One was those Directors who came from industrial credit unions and the other was the Directors who came from community credit unions. I was really put on the line as to which one I was going to support. My reaction to that, of course, given my own philosophies to it and I could never understand why these factions existed, was that I sat on the fence as far as the factions were concerned. I didn’t support one above the other. I understood, and these were my words I think, “Understood that I had been appointed as a Director to work in the interests of the total movement in Victoria and to represent the interests of the majority, not just one faction or the other.” It was a time of turmoil for the VCCA. I attended something like thirty-seven meetings of the Board and/or its Committees in seven months. After seven months I couldn’t take any more.
So you found fence sitting altogether too painful?
WW: Exactly. When I say fence sitting, I certainly made decisions on behalf of what I believed were right in the interests of the majority. This faction fighting it was very, very difficult to contend with.
End Tape 1A: 4613 Words: 1 hour 25 minutes
10 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO WALLACE (WALLY) WINTER
I had just asked you about the various Chairmen you had worked under.
WW: Well in the first bout, the 1976, 1977 bout, I was under Ken Ploog.
What faction was he in?
WW: Well he attempted to be unbiased as well. I am uncertain as to whether or not whether he was Chairman for the whole seven months, or whether he finished up and didn’t seek re-election just before myself, resigned just before myself. But during that time it was probably Ken in all of it. In the next bout, the 1982 to 1986, Richard Crosbie was Chairman of the VCCA all of that time. I didn’t have to contend with another Chairman in that time. Certainly a lot of changes on the Board over those years, but not a change of Chairman.
Now David Dinning, he was open when I asked him the question about various Chairmen and he felt that although he was friendly with Richard Crosbie he didn’t get sufficient support from the Board during that time. Would you agree with that or did you feel that there was also some deficiency in his management?
WW: I would support David in his comments that there wasn’t sufficient support from the Board that a Chief Executive Officer of an organisation like the VCCA should expect. As far as David’s deficiencies, I mean we all have some deficiencies, but I think David made every effort to recognise and overcome them, his own that is.
What do you think about his strengths and weaknesses in the job?
WW: I suppose if there was any weakness, it would have been perhaps some attempt to believe he could be everything to everybody. That is not possible when you have a democratic process under which the movement is structured. At the same time, one of David’s great strengths was his ability to get on with people and negotiate. He had a very good negotiating ability.
What about his financial and administrative ability?
WW: Well he had support staff here, particularly in the financial side of things. I think there was a failing in the administrative side.
You were on the Board when other Managers were in control of the VCCA itself. How many?
WW: Well when I came here on the first bout a gentleman by the name of Geoff Conrad was the Manager. Frankly I believe he was the wrong appointment. He was General Manager on my arrival and I don’t think that he had the necessary skills to act as Chief Executive Officer of this organisation.
What about the others?
WW: Again I was out touch on one occasion or another and I would only be able to comment on observing them outside this Board. I think there were some bad choices and bad appointments.
You mentioned earlier on that there were two definite factions on the Board. Can you enumerate who was in which faction?
WW: What happens if this gets heard by other people?
Well it will do.
WW: Well I would rather not give names to protect myself. Suffice to say the community credit union faction were prominent people in the Victorian community credit unions who believed, wrongly, that the object of industrial credit unions was the demise of community-based credit unions. That was not to be the case. I believe that a lot of people representing the industrial credit unions, even on the Board, saw that their way may ultimately be to a broader community-base as opposed to a tight industrial base.
Where did the Catholic credit unions come in all this? Are they in the community section?
WW: Yes they were in the community section. I even made the comment in recent times, that the Victorian Credit Co-operative Association was born out of the Catholic Association of Credit Co-operatives and it hasn’t changed much today.
Do you know Ted Long?
WW: Yes I do know Ted Long. I think there has been a change to it, but regrettably it is because of the reduction of community-based credit unions. We don’t see the development of new ones in that field and of course we are seeing the industrial credit unions by expansion of their bonds take in geographic locations. But the community credit unions in this State, my experience is, they have attempted to be everything to everybody too quickly and serve the total community and have moved into areas of commercial lending without the expertise to enter that field. As a result they have got themselves into trouble and we have seen the demise of many of them in Victoria. Regrettably. The Reserve Board and the Registrar have not been prepared to hand their bond over to other community-based credit unions, so apart from industrial-base looking for geographic areas for them to service, they are also taking on the remnants of some of the community credit unions. My own credit union, the SEC Credit Union, back in the latter part of 1990 had the former Moe Credit Union merge with us. Now we are talking about a $50 million-odd credit union who because of poor practices and wrong influences got in strife and in heavy strife. If you believe in the co-operative ideals, co-operative philosophy, what you are about for the good of the community, you don’t put yourself in that position. You take steps to ensure that you keep out of such traps, otherwise you do the community you are serving a disservice.
What about the various constructive things that have happened during the time? We will get round to some of the problems later. For instance were you involved on the Board when the Central was being set up, or was that central banking already set up?
WW: Central banking was really set up in a lower form and it has just been the progress for it to develop into something much larger. I was on the Board initially when the VCCA had a Stabilisation Fund as opposed to a Reserve Board under law. I was involved in the Legislation Committee of the VCCA which really set in place new legislation for a Reserve Board and Reserve Fund to regulate credit unions in this State.
What about the new Act? Were you involved in the Legislative Committee towards that?
WW: Well I have mentioned in my questionnaire that I was involved in a number of Legislative Committees. I was not on the Board at the time of the final development of the model Act that we are now seeing coming through the AFIC legislation. But I contributed earlier on to proposed model Acts and I believe that part of the material that was developed at the time was used. Then last year I was invited by the VCCA to sit on a Committee to review some aspects of the model legislation for AFCUL.
What about your involvement with AFCUL?
WW: Well my involvement with AFCUL has been really limited to a delegate of Victoria with AFCUL attending what were known then as National Planning Meetings, which was a forerunner to what we now have in place, the AFCUL National Council.
Were you a delegate, or an alternate?
WW: Yes I was an alternative to AFCUL when I was Vice-Chairman of the VCCA, but I never attended an AFCUL Board Meeting, the delegate was always available to attend.
You were too late on that to be involved with any of the arguments between Peter Hodgkinson and Dermot Ryan.
WW: I had arguments with Peter Hodgkinson when we sat on the Board in the 1970s together. But I was too late for those arguments.
Over what?
WW: I suppose the dictatorial stance that he attempted to take towards credit unions in the central banking system that was here. He was given the portfolio of Finance Director by the Board of the VCCA at the time, but I believe that he saw himself as going beyond the bounds of that portfolio.
In the credit union were you involved with any Chapters?
WW: Yes I was for a time. I was a Committee Member of the Melbourne Chapter. I am a regular attender of Chapter meetings, but I don’t play any official part in the Chapter.
Were you involved in the Chapters in the days that they were spread all over the State?
WW: Yes.
How did that come about?
WW: Well they tried to divide, as I understand it, the State into regions and credit unions within a region were confined to membership of that Chapter.
Who did it? Who was responsible for this?
WW: I think the VCCA was probably behind it all.
Who was pushing it at the VCCA? It never happened anywhere else.
WW: I can’t recall. Their Charter in fact was that they were non-denominational, non-sectarian, non-racist, non-everything else. It was to be a forum for credit unions to exchange items of interest and information. There was at one stage an attempt to politicise them, I suppose as being regions for the VCCA. That very quickly got knocked on the head, I think probably because credit unions were not prepared to support that and hence the Chapters were not getting the support they expected would occur.
In New South Wales they tried to spread the Chapters all over, and they did to some extent, but they never really took off. But then they had regional meetings and they were successful.
WW: Well the VCCA has in latter years had regional meetings and they have done them by Chapters. They have been successful but they haven’t been meetings of the Chapters, they have just been VCCA regional meetings that they have used the Chapter boundaries for convenience. The Chapter here, Melbourne Chapter, is heavily supported. Melbourne Chapter is not confined to just credit unions who are located in the central business district of Melbourne, as an example, because there is a south-eastern suburb Chapter and everything else. Any credit union who feels that they have a greater interest in the Melbourne-based credit unions, can join that Chapter. So you will find that a lot of industrial-based credit unions will gravitate to the Melbourne Chapter as opposed to the suburban Chapters. Chapters in Victoria, to my knowledge, have reduced in number. I think there are probably only three, possibly four at the most.
To what extent do you think they have been replaced by ICUD and AICUM?
WW: I see the roles of AICUM and ICUD as completely different. AICUM is purportedly a professional association for Managers of credit unions.
It is also an educational organisation.
WW: It certainly is also an educational organisation.
The Chapters were as well weren’t they?
WW: The Chapters are more in a general sense though, to provide a forum for people just to get together and casually exchange ideas. Of course it is a mixture of Directors and staff of credit unions. Anyone working, or involved, in a credit union can attend, whereas in the other two organisations they are restricted to the professional body type arrangement, either Directors or Managers.
That is the basic difference, I think, in what is left in New South Wales, Sydney, and what is left in Melbourne. What is left in Sydney is a small educational organisation for staff members. What is left in Melbourne, exactly what is it? The Melbourne Chapter?
WW: The Melbourne Chapter, they meet quarterly, they have speakers of interest. In fact tonight there is a meeting of the Melbourne Chapter and the guest speaker is the newly appointed Chairman of the newly constructed Reserve Board in Victoria. We also invariably have the Reserve Board CEO, or the VCCA give an update on happenings. But it is an informal exchange of information and you get a whole mixture of Directors, Managers and senior staff who attend those meetings. The other two professional organisation are more formally structured in what their roles are.
Incidentally, David mentioned that the Reserve Board is now sort of somewhat converted and there are few credit union people on it.
WW: Yes well there have been some changes to the legislation in Victoria. NBFI legislation which is really the outcome, or the result of, the Pyramid debacle in Victoria. Hence the Government decided to take some additional measures to safeguard their position and the position of depositors in this State. So they didn’t see that credit union people, or building society people should sit on the Reserve Board. They should be professional people to control the functions of those organisations. It is a dreadful shame that it is occurring.
The bankers have had a terrible practice lately, why put them in charge of credit unions who have got a very good practice?
WW: Well I am not too sure that it is just the bankers who are in charge of it.
The building societies haven’t got a terribly good name.
WW: No, not at all. I think the Government has tried to be unbiased about it all, but I don’t know that it augers well for the future.
Do you put the credit unions in charge of the buildings societies?
WW: Well we should. Mind you, I have to say that I think some of these things we have brought on ourselves.
How?
WW: Well when I first joined the credit union movement I was told that we existed (a) for co-operation people joining together to help one another. Our competitors were the money-lenders and the finance companies. That was very easy to understand. We were really in the business of making loans, assisting people financially. In a very short space of time I was told that our competition had changed, our competitors were the building societies. I had great difficulty coming to grips with that because why was it the building societies. We were not in the business of housing lending, but the building societies were competing for the household savings dollar and opened up shopfronts throughout the community, in this State anyway. So suddenly our emphasis changed from being in the business of credit, making loans to people to help them, we were suddenly in the business of capturing the savings dollar. We now seem to be treading a path where our competitors are the banks. I find it difficult to come to grips with the fact that we are a bank. I see messages now on cars and everywhere else something along the lines, “Why bank, why not credit union?” Now what does that mean? To me it means nothing. I would think to the public it means very little. We are aligning ourselves with a bank. We are promoting and developing services that are the same as a bank. We want to do all that the banks do, in the services that we provide. We structure our differential rates here and there, we structure our differential rates on deposits and on loans. We give out cheques, we give out plastic cards. I believe that there is a place for credit unions and that is built on co-operative ideals. That is people coming together to assist one another. I believe that there is very little opportunity given to members on what they want from their credit union. They are inclined to be told. I think that comes from the top of our structure in credit unions being told the services that they are to give to their members and credit unions then telling their members what services they will provide. I know there are attempts at surveys, but it depends on how you structure the survey as to what sort of results you get out of the survey. I just feel that for some time there has been some difficulty by the movement in determining its direction. I think while we are led to believe by our leaders that the direction is known, and this is what we are all about, we have had the Project Renewal thing go through the process, I tend to believe that we will gradually be absorbed, if only by appearance, as being quasi-banks. I don’t believe that is what credit unions were founded for, nor the path they should tread. I don’t say I have all the answers to the alternative, but I don’t think we are heading in quite the right direction.
I have only had three interviews here, but things seem to be looking slightly different here from New South Wales or Queensland, for instance. They have definite sorts of slants coming into view. Nobody seems to like Project Renewal except the people who are actually organising it. How is it down here?
WW: Well Victoria has demonstrated that they are prepared to go along with it. Behind the scenes I think there has been a lot of questioning of it and people saying they don’t have the answer so they had better go along with what has been decided. I think the process of Project Renewal could have been better, I think it really left a lot to be desired in determining this course of action. The movement in the eastern provinces of Canada, the Desjardins Movement, saw problems looming and they went ahead and did their own work. They worked it out themselves without calling in external consultants to determine where the movement should head. I think that was a failing of Project Renewal, the need to call in external consultants. I believe the movement could have made its own determination. It might have taken a little bit longer. The process may have been a bit more laborious, but that is what the democratic process of co-operation is all about.
Now David was of the opinion that it should have been done slower, and that it should have been done in two parts. He thought they should have got the service end of the organisation restructured first and then tackled the matter of representation afterwards. That way they might have come to some reasonable conclusion. Whereas at the present moment it seems as if everybody is fighting a bit of a rear guard action.
WW: Couldn’t agree more. I think the commercial needs, as they have been perceived by the leaders and people of influence, have overshadowed the representation, the philosophical aspects of the credit union movement. Yes in my view a commercial organisation could have been easily structured for credit unions who wished to participate in the delivery of commercial services. Not a problem, and it would have been out there without undue influence over the representation, the democratic process, under which credit unions should operate. Whereas now, those commercial activities heavily influence the other. If we look at Project Renewal papers it is my assessment that by far the majority of the paper devotes time and effort to the commercial requirements with very little on the representation side.
Perhaps we should go back. I asked you at one stage if you were involved with the Savings Stabilisation Fund. Were you on the Savings Stabilisation Committee at any time?
WW: Yes in that first bout of Directorship I had, the seven months, I sat as a member of the Stabilisation Fund Committee.
Can you remember any of the details of what went through the Fund Committee at that time? Any of the restructuring that was done?
WW: The only one I can vividly remember is the credit union in Werribee in trouble because of having decided to purchase land to build their offices on at some considerable loss and the credit union was really in trouble. Going down there with the Manager and looking at the site and what could be done about off-loading it, and things like that. The credit union was operating out of a little shop front offices and was only big enough to afford to operate that way. Of course at that stage we had been in the spout and were still under recommendations from high levels to deficit budget. This was parish credit unions deciding to come out into the community, couldn’t afford to come out into the community really, and acquire premises, or even rent premises. So the Stabilisation Fund had a lot of work on their hands because there was this deficit budgeting. Mind you it was condoned by the Registrar of the time.
Whose idea was it in Victoria? How was it organised? Was it organised or was it just people running a deficit? Did they understand how to do it?
WW: It was supposedly organised. But then of course it depended on the quality of the Board and the Manager of the credit union as to how well it was controlled.
Was this the push to expand credit unions into the community?
WW: It most certainly was.
So it was the same as New South Wales in that sense. The person doing it there was Les Robinson. Who was doing it here?
WW: Well the person behind it here was probably Graham Benson.
Was Graham Benson the financial person behind it?
WW: No, I think he was just the leader of it. It was condoned by the VCCA Board of course. That was all part of the development of credit unions as far as the Board at the time was concerned.
Did some of the credit unions not understand how it should be done?
WW: Well I am sure they did. I recall going to a meeting which was the forerunner of a merger meeting between two credit unions in the south-eastern suburbs. One was located at Mount Waverley and one was located at Glen Waverley. They had both been parish credit unions and they had one suburb in between them. I went to an Annual Meeting of the Mount Waverley Credit Union. It had come out from the parish I think about twelve or eighteen months earlier. It was a small credit union I would think probably in the order of $2 million in assets at the most. They had a deficit of some $70,000 that was growing in the order of $2,000 a month.
How did they plan to reduce this? Had they an actual plan to increase the size of the credit union so they would reduce their deficit?
WW: Well they didn’t seem to have an actual plan to increase the size of the credit union. What had been proposed was that they merged with the Glen Waverley Credit Union. There was some considerable objection there, because they were still in the eyes of many, particularly their Board, a parish credit union and they didn’t want to join forces with a parish two blocks down the road. There was a great deal of influence had to be exercised through the Registry and through the VCCA in an attempt to convince that Board that they should make a recommendation to the members to merge. The meeting I went to, when the Board gave warning, they had finally become convinced they should do it, to the members that they should do it, of course the members had a similar attitude to the Board. Fortunately there were enough among the members in that meeting to recognise the need to do it. But mind you there were still some Directors of the credit union who openly said they didn’t agree with the decision the Board had taken to recommend merging. So the Stabilisation Fund was still in that area where credit unions were in deficit, credit unions did need some help and probably heavily taxed. Plus you had credit unions objecting to having to contribute, because it was a voluntary contribution to the scheme. Except, if you wanted to be affiliated with the VCCA you had to do it. But they didn’t like contributing money into it.
End Tape 1B: 3971 Words: 1 hour 15 minutes
10 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO WALLACE (WALLY) WINTER
I suppose we had better broach the subject of Jubilee Lake and Teledata. Can you tell what you remember of both events?
WW: Well Jubilee Lake was a long running sore in the side of credit unions in Victoria as I understand it. I think it was mooted for the wrong reasons and that is the fact that because Warburton had been successful they tried to create it in their own environment. A venue which would be owned, operated, run by the credit unions to conduct Schools and training programs and everything else. The reason I say mooted for the wrong reasons, I think it was an attempt to continue the good Schools of Warburton, where perhaps they had had their day and it was time to move on to the next phase. It was a disaster. Credit unions were invited over too long a period to demonstrate commitment to it, whereas when they didn’t get the commitment in the first place the second attempt should have been the end of it.
Whose idea was it to lease land and put up a conference centre?
WW: Well in those days the greater influences across the Victorian movement were exercised by the likes of Graham Benson. Hodgkinson was still hanging around behind the scenes. I can’t remember to what extent Don Harris might have been involved. Again, it was really being pushed by people involved in community credit unions.
So what actually happened, how did it go wrong?
WW: Credit unions were reluctant, I think, to invest some money into something that was not giving them a great return, if any return at all, over a period of time. They perhaps couldn’t foresee the benefits they might have derived from having such a centre, if there were any such benefits to be derived from such a centre. Credit unions were in growth situations, though many of them in very tight growth situations. To have money lying around with a return they were not prepared to let that happen.
So they couldn’t get sufficient finance to get it off the ground early enough was that it?
WW: That’s right, and there were a whole lot of very expensive feasibility studies. There was a tie-up with a long lease from the Council, of which credit unions would provide the money to construct it but never really own the land.
Do you know anything about a feasibility study to purchase another hotel in that area to run as a conference centre?
WW: No. I can’t recall anything.
I believe there was one, but it is just bits and pieces. Ken Ploog thinks there was one, but he is not sure about it either. What about the matter of Teledata and the CUE Card systems that the VCCA put money into?
WW: The General Manager of the day was a very entrepreneurial type of man. I think he had some very good ideas and he was perhaps a little bit ahead of his time with those ideas. It is interesting now when we look at the Teledata concept, which was really knocked on the head as we all know.
So what was the concept exactly?
WW: Well from my recollection it was much the same as what we see now developing out of FCS.
But they used somebody else’s money and somebody else’s expertise that was already in existence. Teledata was already set up?
WW: No Teledata wasn’t already set up. It was a move to set up such a thing. I think again the wrong people were involved in doing it. I mean there were some clouds, and I can’t recall what they were, over the principal, or major shareholder, of Teledata who in the big wash of things it seems that his object was money as opposed to providing a full service. I believe that the General Manager of the day of VCCA was attempting to have such an organisation structured for very good motives.
Was he attempting to compete with GCS/FCS?
WW: Certainly, yes there would have been a competition there with FCS to have a computer system that was owned and operated by the credit union movement.
That had already happened. They already had it set up with GCS/FCS. Why did they want to set one up in opposition rather than buy into, or be part of the other one?
WW: Well my recollection at the time is that GCS/FCS were not owned by the credit union movement at that point in time. I know that our credit union, SEC Credit Union, used the GCS system. I am not sure if the movement had even any small shareholding in that, it was a private organisation that developed a system for credit unions.
Well that is true. But I am not quite sure at what stage it was then. It started in Western Australia and as far as I can remember it was attempted by Les Robinson to market it after he left the New South Wales League. The next thing I heard the New South Wales League had bought an interest out with the Western Australian people direct. Did Teledata start the operations with VCCA before that?
WW: I believe so.
It might have made sense in that case, because there is one thing GCS did not have at that stage, that was the hardware.
WW: That’s true. They had arrangements with other hardware suppliers the likes of AWA.
Where their real strength was, was in the software. That what was really bought by the New South Wales League.
WW: Well the objection to Teledata from my recollection was the very structure of it. Credit unions in this State overall seemed to embrace the concept of what Teledata was proposing, but it was the way in which it was to be structured and the cost of its operation that were the major objections. I can’t remember all the fine detail, but we are talking about a happening back in the late 1970s. During my course on the Board between 1982 and 1988 was when agreements were signed with GCS to acquire whatever was sold off, the goodwill, the systems and everything else. At that stage GCS operating in other States was also known as FCS operating in New South Wales. I sat on this Board and was a signature to the arrangements of acquiring GCS and out of that was born FCS as we know it tody, owned by the credit union movement.
I understand that. What they bought from Western Australia was software.
WW: That’s so.
I mean GCS is still going.
WW: Yes they are a competition, in hardware. So the Teledata was certainly a debacle, but as I said my recollection is it was based on its structure and its cost.
David Dinning was trying to make the point, I don’t know how accurate this is of course and I am putting it to you because I don’t have any knowledge, he thought it was the financing, the way they bought in was the main problem. The fact that they bought the person who had originally started out and left him in charge.
WW: Yes that was certainly a thorn in the side of it all. I think that sort of goes along with what I was saying about the structure, the cost and the people involved were not the right combination for credit unions to embrace totally. But if we look at the concept of it all, that has ultimately happened through the FCS development.
Were you on the Board when there was the big changing of the guard of the Board in 1981? You were out of it at that stage?
WW: I wasn’t here in 1981.
Do you know what went on?
WW: No, not particularly.
Sounds as if you don’t want to know.
WW: I don’t recall it. I do recall problems on the Board at various stages. 1981, of course, is where we are talking about the culmination of the likes of the Jubilee Lake and Teledata situations and the VCCA was in financial trouble. The movement fortunately decided to get behind it but significant changes, including changes in management and changes on the Board, were absolutely necessary. My understanding was the total Board resigned and was then replaced by a new Board.
What about the business of the introduction of the plastic cards and EFTS and the setting up of the machines, the ATM machines. Were you involved on the Board at the time that those decisions were made?
WW: Yes, some of them most certainly.
At what stage were the VCCA approached to go into this, can you remember? What had happened in New South Wales was merely that they had managed to get seven credit unions on-side to put the money up front to start it off. Now I notice that CUE had started off down here, I don’t know who had started it off but it had started off, again in opposition than in co-operation. Do you know anything about this period?
WW: I have vague recollections. Certainly CUEs was started by the entrepreneurial Manager who got Teledata on the move but who did not do Jubilee Lake. There seemed to be at that stage that Victoria, from a VCCA perspective, wanted to do their own thing as opposed to co-operating at a national level. Fortunately while it created a lot of heartache and hardship for a period of time, it was ultimately squashed with the change of Board back in the 1981 stage.
How much do you think the financial problems that the VCCA experienced at that time stopped them from developing their own system?
WW: Well it was certainly a significant influence. If the problems hadn’t developed in the financial arena I think there is every chance that Victoria would have continued on with further development in their own system.
The ATMs were started off by Queensland Teachers’ Lloyd Hawkins in 1977. Did any of the credit unions in Victoria get into that at all?
WW: Not in a direct sense. That was quite visionary. The first ATMs in Australia were brought in by Queensland Teachers and we were very impressed. In fact SEC Credit Union established a relationship with Queensland Teachers’ because we were beginning to develop and see things along a similar vein and we didn’t see that happening with other credit unions in this State. It was only by chance that we had contact from Queensland Teachers’ and immediately went and had a look at what they were doing. That was the forerunner to the VFTS development that we see today.
They weren’t on-line of course.
WW: No they weren’t on-line and of course the first machines in Victoria were not on-line either. There was an attempt to have Rediteller machines in Victoria, but they are very few and far between. Again it costs considerable money with only a few credit unions willing to contribute, of which we were one. We established a Rediteller amongst the first few that were created here.
Did you put your money up front?
WW: Yes, we did put our money up front.
There were a lot of arguments up there, north of the border, about who was putting their money in and who wasn’t.
WW: Yes we have had over the decades this question and this concern about who is involved and who isn’t, and those that aren’t why aren’t they. Some people obviously want to tread more carefully and then see the advantage. Of course there has been an attempt over the years to try and convince credit unions that they should all participate in everything that is put forward from a national or State level. Some credit unions don’t see it that way. We have credit unions of varying sizes and slightly different philosophies on it and they don’t see the need to go to those extremes.
Now what else. Is there anything you can remember that we should cover that we haven’t as yet?
WW: I don’t think so. The information contained there is fairly general.
Overseas trips?
WW: Yes I have been fortunate to attend four WOCCU conferences, one of which was in Sydney. But I got to Toronto in 1982, in London in 1986 and of course the one in Melbourne in 1988. I was involved in the Organising Committee in Victoria for that conference. It has helped to broaden my horizons, my knowledge of credit unions. I have done a tour of the United States and Canadian credit unions. I have attended a Credit Union Executive Society’s Operations Conference in Indianapolis. Met many overseas people and maintained a contact with a number of them. Mind you, while we can learn a lot from them, I think they can learn a lot from us. I think in many areas the movement in Australia is advanced in their development to what goes on in the North American continent anyway. The area I would very much like to explore is the co-operative system in Europe, which I have not had the opportunity to do yet.
I notice your credit union has been involved in doing some historical project recently. What started you off on that? Were you involved in it?
WW: Yes I have been involved. I think it was precipitated by the fact that some of the older people involved in the past were gradually passing on. We had a few left, and we have got some anecdotes in our own organisation and the various stages of development, that we felt we should do something. I suppose the Historical Co-operative had some bearing on the fact, its very existence had some influence on us. Plus the credit union has acquired twenty-one years of age and we wanted to put something to the members on its development, so we incorporated it as part of our newsletter. Let me digress for a moment, in the 1990 Annual Report, when we were twenty years old, we incorporated significant events over the twenty years on the development of the credit union. But then came the 1991 Annual Report, when we were twenty-one years old, we put together in conjunction with that Report some history of co-operatives including our own. So we have started to collect some data from people who were around in earlier times, but we haven’t put it all together yet.
Well it is good that is being done, anyway.
WW: In fact have you not received that? I believed that we had followed copies of those to the Historical Society.
Oh yes, we got them all right.
WW: I was going to say if you hadn’t we would let you have some more.
What is more one of the fellows came up to the Historical Co-operative to do some research early on when he was first putting it together. He found a shortage down here. I might suggest of course that there is really no sort of credit union archive in Victoria at the moment and maybe there should be one, at the State Library or wherever, here.
WW: Yes that would be valuable. I recall our Marketing Officer, Serge Ocarnivalli, went up there to gather some information. We have a number of photographs and of course although our own history is not documented it is a whole series of areas. There was an attempt in Victoria a few years ago and they acquired the services of a young lady, Susan Pepper, to do some historical research. There was some material produced.
Were you interviewed?
WW: No I wasn’t.
Do you know if she tape-recorded anybody, people like Gordon Farrer for instance?
WW: I don’t know. She visited our credit union, spoke with the General Manager, recorded an interview. But whether it was a verbal recording or whether it was written recording I don’t know. I saw the content of that for vetting before it went into the publication. I am not aware of what process she used.
I was just wondering if there were any tapes around of people who have since died who were not otherwise recorded, as far as I know.
WW: I could provide you with contact with her, if that would help in any way.
I will probably get it through Leon Magree, but nonetheless if you could I would be obliged because we could maybe find out. There is quite a lot of tape at Graham Benson’s house, in his garage I believe, from the Warburton days, including Dermot Ryan and a number of other people. It is on reel-to-reel tape and it is sitting in not a very dry situation. Graham Benson is talking about leaving it to his son, but I am afraid that there might not be anything left that is useable by that time if it is not exercised and put in somewhere a bit drier.
WW: Do you know which son, John or Richard. Graham has two sons.
He is deciding at the present moment. I put this to him and he said that at the present moment the son is overseas and he is waiting for him to come back.
WW: I believe that is probably John. John is somewhat involved with the VCCA as he provides an industrial advocacy role for VCCA and member credit unions in Victoria.
I just feel that some of the tape should be looked at, if we can get at it. Is there anything else? I think we are running out of time, but you could come back of course.
WW: I can’t bring anything to mind, unless there are some areas you would like to concentrate on. I would be more than willing if you feel that there is a need.
Well there is only one other thing that I haven’t asked you. You were Vice-Chairman for a number of years, what about that job as Vice-Chairman? How did you become Vice-Chairman? Was there anything significant that you think you did during the period you presided over?
WW: Well I like to think that during my term on the Board I made a significant contribution. I believe that I have ability to chair meetings unbiasedly and can perform in that role quite well. The opportunity to take an active role in chairing was fairly limited because the Chairman of the day obviously kept good health and made sure he turned up at various meetings. As I said, my contribution was significant at Annual Meetings of the VCCA, there was a role for the Vice-Chairman to play a significant role and I was able to handle that quite well. I lost the Vice-Chairman role because there was a move to nominate me for the Chairman’s Chair on more than one occasion. Influences behind the scenes didn’t want that so ultimately they decided they had better put someone else in as a Vice-Chairman to replace me.
Behind the scenes?
WW: Oh well the Chairman of the day felt that he should be Chairman of the day for ever and ever, whereas there were some Directors who felt there was a need for change.
Was there a formal resolution? Were you put up as Chairman against him?
WW: Yes on two or three occasions.
Against Richard Crosbie?
WW: Against Richard Crosbie. On the first occasion he created a scene, if I can say so. I withdrew my nomination that had been put forward for me. Then on the next occasion I think that they got wind of the fact and there was a whole lot of lobbying going on to keep me out of the Chair. On the third occasion, there was further lobbying of course and then when I was nominated for Vice-Chairman, someone else was nominated as well so I missed out on both positions at that time. They are very long stories, of which I don’t believe it was because of any perception that I was incompetent. I believe it was for personal motives that the lobbying went on. The various Managers. There have been a number of Managers in succession and it seems to me that a professional manager was Manager and then the next one is a member of the Board who sort of becomes a Manager. Then there is another professional manager.
Were you on the Board during those periods?
WW: I had left the Board before the professional manager was replaced by a member of the Board.
Was that Mike Hildebrand?
WW: No we are talking about Bill Meares. I wasn’t on the Board when Hildebrand was around. I only served on the Board during the time of David Dinning. From an observer’s point of view, and I knew Bill Meares as a Director and I found him to be an extremely competent Director, one was astounded to hear that he had been appointed as Manager. I didn’t feel that he had the skills to manage this type of organisation. He certainly had skills in his own area of expertise, but not to come in here. There seemed to me to be a great deal of undue influence, or influence from the wrong places, to make that appointment.
There were several like that. I wonder to what extent they were stop-gaps, or whether they were genuine appointments of somebody who was supposed to take the VCCA in a different direction?
WW: I don’t think they were ever seen as stop-gaps at all. No-one really knew where Project Renewal was going, if anywhere at all, when Bill Meares was appointed. Hildebrand was certainly seen to take the Association forward because of his entrepreneurial ship. I think the appointment of all CEOs, people look to them and probably there is a limited life on any of them as far as heading up an organisation is concerned. But I don’t think any of the appointments were purposely set out to be stop-gaps.
Can you see yourself taking any part in the VCCA again at any time?
WW: I would like to, but I certainly am not acceptable to the national regime at the present time. I am prepared to say that and I think that is on the basis that I have not been an unquestioning supporter.
I am working to the point where we are coming to the end of this side of the tape, so I am asking any regrets in preparation to winding up the interview. Do you have any regrets?
WW: No, no real regrets. I find that my involvement in the co-operative and credit union movement over twenty years has been very satisfying. My role at the VCCA has been satisfying, while at the same time frustrating on occasions, but in the main satisfying. I don’t believe I have any regrets, because I am not the type of person who is prepared to say “yes” to achieve my own ends, without questioning what it is all about. Of course that doesn’t fit well with a whole lot of people who believe in their own mind, and perhaps rightly so, that the direction they are proposing is the way to go. I am not a lobbyist. I couldn’t lobby to protect myself.
For a cause?
WW: Yes, for a cause, but very, very ethical when I get involved in those causes.
What are you most proud of do you think? Has the time been worth it?
WW: Oh the time has been worth it. I couldn’t see myself being involved in any other type of structure in the financial sense. It helped me find my feet. It certainly helped my development in tolerance towards others. It has been worth it. It has been good fun as well.
Well I will say thank you very much Mr Wally Winter.
WW: It’s a pleasure.
End Tape 2A: 3984 Words: 1 hour 15 minutes