RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO ROBERT (BOB) LAMOND
I will ask you Mr Lamond, what is your full name?
BL: Robert Alexander Lamond.
Where were you born, and when?
BL: I was born in Nowra in 1951.
Did you grow up around there?
BL: Yes. I went to school there. Left Nowra at eighteen to come to Wollongong to work at Lysaghts.
What advice did your father give to you, do you think?
BL: My father? He was a leader I suppose and I followed him in a lot of pursuits. I basically take after him in terms of personality and interests, sports etc.
What sort of pursuits?
BL: Mainly golf. He was a golfer for all the life I knew him. I have been participating in golf for twenty-five years out of thirty-eight.
What work did he do?
BL: Well when I was born he had a dairy farm. He was a boot maker by trade. Then when I was about he and my mother bought a general store in Nowra and they ran that. He died in 1972 and my mother carried that on for another four or five years and then she retired.
What influence did you get from your mother?
BL: Bit hard to define I suppose. We were like chalk and cheese, we really don’t have a lot of interests in common I suppose, in terms of personality a lot different from myself. A lot more forthright than I am.
Where did you go to school?
BL: Nowra. I went to Nowra Primary and the Nowra High School.
What did you like and dislike about school?
BL: I thought school was great, I had no real worries. I was never a high achiever, I just did enough to get through school. I went to university after that.
What subjects did you do at school? What did you prefer at school?
BL: I did the commerce, plus I did all the craft like woodwork and metalwork, trades I suppose you would call them. I have always been handy with my hands, so I like doing that kind of thing.
You did well and went to university straight away?
BL: I joined John Lysaght’s as a trainee in 1970 and did university part-time. I completed that in 1975, Bachelor of Commerce.
When did you come up this way to live from Nowra?
BL: 1970. When I started work I lived in Wollongong and have been here ever since.
What led you into credit unions?
BL: Well I left John Lysaght in 1975 and went to work for the Illawarra County Council. As part of the that, the credit union which was the original of this credit union had what they called a Youth Council. Actually through Steve Birt from the Association at the time. There were quite a lot of us at the credit union, in the same age group, were interested and we just participated in credit union activities through that.
Where did you go on your first outing from the Youth Council?
BL: Actually the first one we went to was in Hobart in Tasmania in 1976. They had an Annual Conference and that was the first exposure we had to the formal links with the Youth Council. After that I and a couple of others were on the Organising Committee, we joined the Organising Committee for future conferences.
So where did that lead you?
BL: Well through that interest I stood for a number of positions on the credit union. They had the Supervisory Committee in those days and I stood for that a couple of times but was unsuccessful. Then when the credit union at that stage decided that because of a couple of pending retirements on their existing staff they needed a change, they had had a Secretary up until then, they determined they needed a Manager or prospective Manager, in 1977 they advertised for the job and I was lucky enough to get it. I have been here ever since, thirteen and a half years.
When were you first involved with the League, Association, then?
BL: With the Association itself, well I was involved when they first set up what we now call Regional Groups which are local committees for the Association, reporting to the Board. When that started down here in about 1984, I was the first Secretary of that. I served on the Committee there, I think I had one year off, then I stood for the Board in 1987 when Bill Griffith from City Coast Credit Union, as it is now, decided to stand down.
What were the issues when you were Secretary of the Regional Group down here?
BL: When the Association itself became one group from the three or four different associations that existed at the time, that was when these Regional Groups were formed to act as an Advisory body for the ANSWCU Board. I guess at that time getting everyone together in co-operation, I guess, was the major issue as far as I was concerned. We were trying to make two groups into one and that there was no ‘them and us’ type attitude between the old what they used to call ASCU, the Association of Southern Credit Unions, and what is now ANSWCU.
What about ACCU?
BL: Well we had no involvement with ACCU. In my view it didn’t really ever exist, because we just had no correspondence with them. Obviously the ASCU representatives had quite a lot communication with them, but from this credit union’s perspective we had no involvement whatsoever.
People like Tom Hanson and Jim Wardle, who were very much the lifeblood of the Southern Association, did they attempt to stop the re-amalgamation?
BL: I think in terms of the ASCU going to ANSWCU, that was well past the time of either of the two gentlemen you have just mentioned. They, to my knowledge, had no active involvement in it. I believe there is references to them by the ASCU and I understand, particularly from Tom Hanson’s point of view, that he was supportive of what steps were taking place. I had no communication with Jim Wardle, he was out of the movement quite a bit before then. Tom Hanson had no active involvement other than as a father figure if you like.
Do you know where they live now?
BL: I think Jim Wardle still works for NM, the company he was employed with at the time.
I notice in the phone book under his initials there is somebody living in Woonona.
BL: I honestly couldn’t tell you. As I said I had no involvement with them and there was no necessity to keep up to date with him. Tom Hanson I believe is still local, but I don’t know.
Did you have much to do with Bill Griffith at all?
BL: Quite a bit. Bill was the first Director of ANSWCU from the Southern Region that was elected. He was on the Committee that I was on so we had our monthly meetings etc., and I had quite a lot of involvement with Bill on whatever issues were going on at the time.
Were you involved at all, or a member of the Union as it was called, the Union of Association of Credit Union Associations?
BL: No we weren’t involved in that. That was in existence prior to the now ANSWCU, as I understand, and was only for the Chairmen of the then Associations.
When you were actually Secretary of the Regional Conference, did you have any issues that you particularly pushed towards the Association before you were a Director?
BL: In the early days we pushed co-operation as the main feature, we were actively trying to push the marketing situation which is the co-operative marketing campaigns at that point of time. Because of the reluctance, if you like, or the non-involvement of both Illawarra and City Coast Credit Unions, which were the two biggest, it died a natural death I guess you could say. They had the votes and so therefore it was mostly a non-event in this particular area.
When you became a Director of ANSWCU, of the Association, what were the first issues that you were involved with there?
BL: 1987. I think mainly the issues as far as I was concerned was that the Association itself kept more in touch and listened to the views of the membership at large. Because it was based in Sydney and because of the structure, I believe it probably tended to listen a lot to what the Sydney or metropolitan credit unions were saying and maybe a lot of the activities centred around that. I guess in terms of dollar value I guess that was where the votes came from. It was probably a view I had when I went on to the Board, but after having been on the Board for a very short time I soon realised that all of the decisions were made on democratic grounds. In my time on the Board there was no parochial issues decided because one credit union was bigger than another, or because it was Sydney or country, etc., so that was one thing I was very glad to find while I was in there. In terms of issues, it was a relatively quiet time in terms of major issues. At every Annual General Meeting there were the usual change of rules for Directors and what we have now, regional representation and a number of credit unions were pursuing the best nine theory. But really apart from that, as I understand it, as I remember it, there were probably not a lot of serious issues that were likely to undermine the future of the organisation.
Were there any personality clashes do you remember amongst the Directors during that period?
BL: Personality clashes, no. Actually it was surprising for a wide diversity of Directors and Managers on the Board, I found it a very enlightening experience. Up front anyway there were no personality clashes and no problems in that area. Probably the only thing that I can remember, and it was probably more told to me, that there was a division between the Directors and management in voting blocks, if you like, in terms of certain matters. That is the only thing that I can honestly say that I came across in the three years that I was on the Board.
Reg Elliott had already taken over as General Manager?
BL: John Carter was the General Manager when I was there. He left in fairly quick circumstances in the period and I suppose that was the most traumatic issue in terms of the three years, that particular phase and the subsequent activities within credit unions generally, as to what happened. That was probably the worst experience I guess in the three years that I was there.
What was the issue with that? I understand that he found it difficult to work with a number of the other staff, and they found it difficult to work with him?
BL: I think his demeanour and approach was such that it was totally opposite to what credit unions stand for in terms of democracy and running by consensus. From information we got, he made up his own mind and whether it was right, wrong or indifferent he wouldn’t listen to anyone else. He was very much a gung-ho-type, Rambo-type, Manager. This is not first hand, but his approach was that he was always threatening people with the sack and such like. As such, people could only stand it for a period of time before they revolted themselves. I think in the end it was either he went or quite a number of the senior staff would have had to have gone because they didn’t want to work in that environment.
Some of the Directors of the time also mention that they weren’t very happy about the manner of his going, they felt they should have backed him more rather than the rest of the staff.
BL: I wouldn’t word it that way myself. I thought that the process involved was very quick. I think it all happened, if I remember rightly, in a period of about twenty-four hours. There was a meeting on the Monday night with the Executive and representatives of senior staff. Then on the Tuesday morning, after Steve Birt had rang around all the Directors, the decision was made to ask him to resign or dismiss him. That left a sour taste. We, the rest of the non-Executive Directors, didn’t get any more information until the Wednesday. That left a sour taste in my mind and I think subsequent events in terms of his termination payment, contract pay-out, I think we weren’t told the full story. I am not saying we were told anything incorrect, but I don’t thing everything came out that probably should have come out. I still think the method used was incorrect. I don’t disagree with the decision, I think that was the only decision that could be made, but the way it was gone about was wrong. I think the people involved learned a lesson, the hard way.
What else was there during your period there until 1989?
BL: Well my period on the Board was pre-Project Renewal getting into any finality. It was talked about and worked on for the last twelve months that I was there. The Reports were being prepared etc., the Committee was in place. I left in the October and I think it was in the December when Project Renewal itself finally came down to being, if you like, actually determined as that was the way to go. I guess really, particularly say the last six months on the Board, there was a lot of activity curtailed or deferred until such times as there was a clearer picture of what was going on. What concerned me was the level of staff at the Association. There were a number of staff resignations in senior management who weren’t replaced, with Stuart Gillies there reluctant to appoint someone to an organisation that may or may not be there in twelve months time. I think maybe the overall activities of the Association were not as high as you would normally expect, and probably with good reason, I don’t doubt that. I think it made life very hard for the people that were left to perform the duties that were still expected of them. That was really, to my way of thinking, a disappointment.
Do you think that the decision that appears to have been made at the present moment is the correct one?
BL: I have no doubts that if it is put together properly and can be run without the political interference that can happen in such events, I think it is the only way to go. They system we have now is really just a joke when you compare it to what we term as the opposition, the building societies, etc., because of the size these organisations themselves. I think we have something like twenty-seven different organisations for what is really very few people, and it can’t work efficiently.
Have you been involved with AFCUL as a delegate for the Association at all?
BL: I went to two conferences, just to the general conference itself, representing the Association. I went to one AFCUL Conference and I went to the World Council Conference in Melbourne in 1988. I haven’t been involved with anything else in that period of time. I wasn’t involved with anything like the Planning Council, it was the Executive who were involved with that.
When you were first on the Youth Council can you remember what was happening in the main scene at that time? When were you first on the Youth Council?
BL: Probably it was late 1975 when I first became involved with the Youth Council. In 1976, January of the long week-end, was when we went to Hobart. That is a long time ago.
For instance was the Savings Protection Fund discussed in those days?
BL: The Savings Protection Fund itself was run by ANSWCU and none of the other associations had a like fund. It was a voluntary one, but I think all credit unions in the Association participated in it. I am just trying to think. I think the issue of the Reserve Board itself came up later in the 1970s. Probably one of the things that I can remember from my first involvement was the problems with CUNA Mutual, the insurance arm, the major divisions between the movement in terms of guess the CUNA Mutual/CUMIS group and the rest. That seemed to me from my very naive and outsider’s point of view the major issues. I can remember quite clearly a major disagreement at the conference between John Granata and various other people at the Association which left him leaving the conference early. That was nothing to do with the conference. They were the sorts of things that was happening at that point of time. I think there were so many political overtones that the movement itself sort of dug its own hole there for a while.
Which conference was that and where?
BL: That was in Tasmania, the Youth Council Conference in Tasmania in January 1976.
So it actually ran over into the Youth Conference as well?
BL: Well not so much in the Conference but with the people that were there. I honestly can’t remember all of them. Steve Birt was there, but I can’t remember who the other, if you like, official people were. At that time I had never heard of any of them. I think there was the Manager of the Association, somebody called Burgess. I am not a hundred per cent certain.
No, Les Robinson.
BL: Les Robinson, that’s right. He was one. There were various others there. I would assume that Bill Howe was there as well. Going back to that time, 1976, there were probably a lot of volunteer Directors that would have been involved, like you probably tend to get management these days.
In 1976 Jack Coyne would have been there too, would he?
BL: No Jack was on the Board of the Association back in that point in time, but I don’t think he was involved with the Youth Council. We as delegates were only told there was a major disagreement between John Granata and other officials at that point of time, not on the conference floor but other meetings or discussions that were taking place, outside the conference itself. As I said it led him to leave rather early apparently.
Has this credit union used CUNA Mutual/CUMIS insurance at all or have they gone through the Association all the time, the League?
BL: We have had loan protection with the CUNA Mutual group probably for about five years, up until last year when we changed back to the Association. We currently do have what I call the Bond Package with CUNA Mutual, that is just up for renewal now and we will renew it. Our loan repayments insurance is with CUNA Mutual. So you could say at this point of time the bulk of our insurance is through them. That can change depending upon the circumstances. It goes in cycles due to a number of factors, obviously price is one and service. We have no qualms about using their facilities.
Now were you involved at any of the League Schools? Did you go to any of those?
BL: I have been to wide ranging School activities or training activities through both the Association and other groups that they have. Probably not in the last five years, but particularly in the early days of my involvement with the credit union when you have got a lot to learn. I probably did every course that was available at that point of time. Now within my position I concentrate on specifics and/or management-type courses which tend to be run either by the Institute of Credit Union Managers or normal management training, the Australian Institute of Management, etc.
Have you been involved in AICUM?
BL: No I haven’t been involved on an official level. I have a real problem with that organisation, a personal problem I mean, in their operations. I don’t have any involvement with them.
In what way?
BL: I think to a certain degree it’s set up all wrong and the way the run it. They are very much a, if you like, a clique group and I just don’t like that sort of attitude that they have. There are some good people on it. It is a personal matter, not the view of the credit union, I have a bit of a problem with some of the people who are organising it, particularly the New South Wales Division. I very rarely go to their regular meetings because I just don’t see the value in driving to Sydney for a two-hour presentation and then eat food and drink grog for the rest of the night, etc. I just don’t see that as the way to go so I refuse to do it. I go to their official meetings, like their Annual Conference and their training courses. I just went to one recently on marketing and it was excellent. That side of things they do a good job, but in the general run of the mill, day-to-day activities I am not interested.
Were you involved with the Chapter at all when it was going?
BL: No that was before my time. The Chapter itself down in this area had ceased to exist just prior to my involvement with credit unions. Our credit union at the time had a strong involvement with its formation and running and I believe it stopped probably 1973, 1974. I probably ran for about ten years prior to that.
What about the Australian Foundation?
BL: No. This credit union hasn’t had any real involvement in that organisation during this time. We put some money into it in the early days. I guess it is continually coming up. I guess we saw some problems with that organisation a few years ago and have kind of not seen fit to involve ourselves, but I think that will change probably in the next twelve months or so. In terms of financial contributions we will probably support that organisation.
Has it changed over a period of time? You saw some problems?
BL: I think what we saw was the people who were running it and some of the activities they were being involved in. I don’t think from our perception we could see it was of any real benefit. Now I say that without any real knowledge of what they did, but some of the information we were getting and that it seemed to the Board in particular that it was just the same old thing turning over, they didn’t seemed to be going out. But now that the organisation itself has changed and they have got these State Committees and State Organising Committees, they seem to have got their act together in a very more useful way, from our perspective, in terms of the general community.
Were you a delegate, or an officer, of AFCUL at any stage of the proceedings?
BL: No I haven’t been on AFCUL at all.
What about the World Council?
BL: No activities on the World Council either.
You didn’t have any direct knowledge of the insurance clash?
BL: No. Heard a lot about it. We had Directors of our credit union, when I started, who were very heavily involved with the State and National scene and they were the ones that informed me on a lot of the activities that had gone on.
What about the amalgamation, that was after your time too?
BL: The amalgamation to form ANSWCU you mean? This credit union didn’t have any part to play in that one because we were already in what was then the New South Wales Association.
Edvest and the Central Banking was already set up as well? Was Edvest set up during your period on the Board?
BL: No Edvest has been running now from probably six or seven years I guess. It was originally set up by the Teachers’ Credit Unions and has recently been taken over by AFCUL. So it is now run by the movement itself. We were in Edvest, this credit union, up until about two years ago but we pulled out of it because we didn’t believe the services being offered were worth the money we had to pay Edvest, now AFCUL, to participate. We now do our own thing.
Do you think the Association should provide more co-operative services?
BL: I think they offer probably as much as they can at this point of time. They do offer a very complex range of services and I believe they do a good job in most of them.
End Tape 1B: 4176 Words: 1 hour 25 minutes