14 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO WARREN EDWARDS
I will ask you first Mr Edwards, where were you born and when?
WE: In Adelaide ???
Did you grow up around there?
WE: Yes I did. I didn’t come to Victoria until 1964.
So you went to school there? Whereabouts?
WE: Yes I did. Unley High School, that is where I finished my schooling in South Australia.
What sort of influence did you get from your parents do you think? What sort of people were they?
WE: They were pretty wonderful parents. We had a very close family relationship. I had a sister four years younger than myself. They were very strong on the value systems and concern about other people. My father was in business. During the time of course that I was aware of the values of life my mother was home all the time. So it was a good family life.
What was your father?
WE: He was in the motor business, actually.
Did he sort of pass anything on in that area?
WE: Well only perhaps the sales techniques. He was what is called an honest trader. He was very good on the sales side and he helped me a lot in that way, of selling yourself and also understanding people in a psychological sense. That did help me tremendously.
What did you like or dislike at school?
WE: At school, probably sports the best I was at. Academically I wasn’t terribly good. I made it, but it was usually a great effort to get there.
When you left school did you do any tertiary education straight away?
WE: I didn’t go to university or anything like that, but in the days when I left school you could do a lot of night study and I studied for accountancy for quite a number of years. Although I didn’t qualify I did do a lot of work on accountancy and that is what I did part-time for quite some time.
So what were you working at?
WE: I went into a bank first of all and I didn’t like that very much, that is when I first left school. Then I worked for my father for eighteen months and then went into a finance company called Custom Credit Corporation. I was with them for six years and then went into another finance company called Beneficial Finance Corporation. They transferred me to Victoria in 1964.
As far as your parents, your father, was he involved in public life at all, Rotary or anything like that?
WE: No he didn’t have anything to do with Rotary but he certainly had a lot to do in the sporting area. He spent a lot of time in administration with the tennis world, even at State level. So he had a lot to do with that area, that seemed to be mostly what he was involved in. On the other side of the family, my mother was very good in the musical area and I inherited some of that from her and did a lot of work myself as a youngster, singing. I did a lot of singing. I was a tenor.
Where did you first hear about credit unions?
WE: Believe it or not when I was out of a job. That was back in 1974. Because of a downturn in the economy at that time, I had been managing a small branch of a finance company here in Melbourne, I was retrenched along with a lot other staff and somebody said to me the VCCA was looking for Field Officer. I said, “What’s that all about?” They said, “That’s the credit unions.” I said, “I will have nothing to do with the Trade Union Movement.” That was the first time I knew about credit unions. From then it is up hill because I got to know what it was all about after that. I applied for the job and got it.
That was the job here?
WE: That was the job here. Apart from that I knew nothing about credit unions prior to that.
So how did you go going straight out advising credit unions when you knew nothing about them?
WE: Well in essence the background that I had after twenty years in the finance industry was of a great help to me in credit unions because in those days credit unions weren’t sophisticated. They didn’t have any idea of how really to lend money, apart from the philosophical approach and they were very good. That was a learning curve for me which I appreciated and responded to well. But as far as the technical side, that was something that held me in good stead and I was able to advise people a lot, both in the accounting and also in the lending area, which I had a lot to do with in a lot of credit unions in Victoria in those days.
Did you get any formal training?
WE: In relation to what?
In relation to credit unions. In relation to the problems of credit unions as opposed to any other financial institutions.
WE: Well I guess I was really thrown to the wolves when I first came in.
Very much on the job.
WE: Very much on the job training. A lot of reading, heck of a lot. The first thing I had to learn was the Co-operation Act 1958, as it was in those days. I studied that and discussed with a lot of my colleagues here and went out and really learnt about credit unions as I went. I had the exposure all the time, night and day. We worked seven days a week in those days.
Did you get paid overtime?
WE: Never. It was all done for the joy of the job and the enhancement of the credit union movement in Victoria.
Who was your boss?
WE: Phillip Elliott in those days. He was the person who actually employed me. They had a fellow here that was looking after personnel, a fellow called Bob Andrews, who actually put me before Phillip Elliott, but Phillip was the one that chose me.
Did you have anything to do with the Board at that time?
WE: Very little. I met the Board but because of my position at that particular time I really didn’t get to know them all that well. Only by name and occasionally when I met them either on a social basis with the credit union movement or at Annual Meetings of the VCCA when I had the opportunity to talk to them a few times. Generally over the years I got to know them all.
When you were out around the credit unions as a Field Officer what were the main problems? I mean where had the movement arrived at that time? Was the Stabilisation Committee in operation? Where were they at?
WE: Well the Stabilisation Committee under Brendan Griffin was already in force at the time I came in. In fact I was used by the Stabilisation Committee a number of times in trouble shooting ventures out in the credit union movement. I found that the credit unions generally at that time didn’t really appreciate, apart from the philosophical approach, how to assess a person’s worth in a financial sense properly. They hadn’t had policies in place, they didn’t understand how to make a decision other than a gut feeling. Now we had to go a long way from there, but that is how I found it in those days.
I have asked other people about this, the authority of the Registrar just seems to have been very lightly used in Victoria. Did you know him?
WE: Warren Jungworth, yes very well. I found him a thorough gentleman, but certainly he was a, I would say, soft type of person in relation to implementing any strong moves that might be necessary to implement decisions that might go against a credit union. He was certainly, I would have said of all Registrars that I have known over the years, more philosophically minded that any.
Did you act as a stabilisation team at all, Field Officers, or was that strictly the Administrator’s job when they were put in?
WE: No, I think we were used for anything. It was a matter of bringing the resources together and using them in the best way. A Field Officer’s job really was just out and trying to help credit unions in general terms. It was also partly a public relations exercise, but I found that I was used along with other people within the VCCA in a stabilisation role many times.
Were you ever required to give recommendations about the firing of management?
WE: Within the first two weeks that I started with the VCCA I was sent out by the Stabilisation Committee to do just that.
Where did you go to do that?
WE: Doncaster-Templestowe. That was one of my first jobs and I am sorry to have to say that the Manager did go.
How did you go about this?
WE: Well I naturally had to go in and just look at the situation. No it wasn’t Doncaster-Templestowe, I apologise, it was Box Hill. I was sent to Doncaster-Templestowe to learn about credit unions within the first two weeks that I was here. Then after that Brendan Griffin asked me if I would go out as a trouble-shooter at Box Hill and find out what was going on because things weren’t going the way they ought to go. I did just that and I spent about two or three weeks out there with the Manager and with the organisation going right through it, having a look at all their accounting, having a look at their lending, their operations, everything. I discussed a lot of things with that gentleman to find out really what was going on. He was of course very reluctant to tell me too much to start off with, but on the basis that I seemed to be able to have him understand that I was working to help the credit union as a whole I did find out a lot of things.
Did you have to recommend to the Board that he be fired?
WE: Well I didn’t actually do that. What I did was make a report to Brendan Griffin and in the report it was fairly obvious that that was what should happen. I was unprepared to make any recommendation that the fellow himself should be dispensed with.
Other sort of jobs you were sent out on? There were a few more like that?
WE: One or two, but I never had one as perhaps as difficult to deal with during those years. But I have been involved in a lot of, shall we say, consolidation of credit unions, bringing others together, fixing their accounting, getting the Board more appreciative of what really is happening, was happening at the time in the organisation. Certainly nothing as traumatic as that.
Can you remember organising some amalgamations?
WE: That’s a very hard one. I don’t think I actually got directly involved in amalgamations.
Consolidations?
WE: Only within the credit unions themselves. I have brought parties together just to discuss it but never been directly involved. I have even actually been responsible in starting credit unions.
Well can you tell us some of them then?
WE: Well I had a lot to do with the Defence Credit Union when it was started here in Victoria. I had a lot to do with the Slater and Tilers Credit Union, which was a very small one, a Union-based credit union. With the COINSCO one, which is the CIC Insurance one, I was involved with that. There may be a couple of others that escape me, but I was directly involved with all those.
How did you go about it when you were setting up credit unions?
WE: Well everything was fairly well established. We used to use in those days a lot of the material that came down from New South Wales, which had been setting up credit unions. We had all the accounting, fairly standard stuff. It was a matter of getting the right people doing the right jobs and then training them.
How was the name got at?
WE: Well I think that was something that generally the people themselves had already thought through, when they decided they wanted to start a credit union. By the time we came in, that was already established that they wanted to use that name.
We had a few occasions in New South Wales where Stan Arneil already had the name written on the form and they disagreed about what they were going to call it.
WE: Well Stan Arneil is somebody very different again. Certainly I read his book and that is what helped me to understand credit unions a lot.
What, How to Form and Run a Credit Union?
WE: That’s the one, that’s right.
He used to go out with the Registrar. Did the Registrar operate in that area here?
WE: No.
Well it wasn’t the Registrar, it was the Deputy Registrar responsible for credit unions, Charlie Butler.
WE: I met Charlie Butler.
He is in the Historical Co-operative.
WE: That is correct. I have been involved with that a little bit too. Only from the point of view of my own credit union, ABC Credit Union, I have attended some of their conferences.
Do you know where Clarrie Stewart is? I have been trying to find him to interview him.
WE: Clarrie Stewart, I know the name, but no I don’t. I don’t know where he is.
He is somewhere in Victoria I understand but I can’t locate him.
WE: Sorry, I can’t help you.
Well it was a nice try. I have been asking everybody that question. I heard he was in Victoria. Peter Lucas is another one in the ABC area that we have lost. I believe that he is somewhere in New South Wales in the Goulburn area.
WE: Sorry, I can’t help you. They must go back a long way.
They do. Clarrie Stewart goes back to Stan Arneil’s days.
WE: Yes, I know the name of Clarrie Stewart.
He is ABC so that is why I asked you.
WE: Well unfortunately in the ABC a lot of people have gone.
He is not in the ABC any more, but he was. He might be in the ABC but he would be getting on a bit now.
WE: Very few of the older echelon are there any more. Even some of the younger ones are gone too.
Keith Glover is still around, although he has retired from the ABC now.
WE: Well he is still a Director of my credit union, so he is very much involved.
I interviewed him the other day.
WE: I know.
He was very nice about everybody. I was trying to get him to sort of tell me all the more awkward things that happened.
WE: He won’t tell you that. He is a gentleman.
He waited until the tape stopped.
WE: He is a gentleman, Keith Glover, he wouldn’t say anything against anybody.
Yes, he seems a very nice fellow. However, I still have got to try and get everything. How were you involved with the ABC Credit Union?
WE: I started there in 1984.
What about the Communication business?
WE: The one in New South Wales? What about it?
Did it have much effect on events in Victoria when that ran into some strife?
WE: That’s going back before my time. You mean when the ABC in New South Wales merged with Communication, is that sort of the time?
Oh no even later than that, because Communication got itself into a bit strife. That was the time when the Reserve Board was mooted but hadn’t been set up.
WE: Well that certainly didn’t happen in my time. I haven’t had any exposure to that at all.
Again what did the Stabilisation Committee do when you recommended a certain way as a Field Officer and the credit union wouldn’t go along with that?
WE: Well as I understood it in those days, legislation’s was sort of fairly easy on credit unions, compared to what it is today. The Stabilisation Fund only had a certain amount of clout and the clout that it had was mainly through the VCCA trying to encourage Directors to take more notice of what the Stabilisation Fund was trying to do. It really didn’t have the power to be able to dictate what a credit union should do.
That was only because the Registrar wouldn’t give it the power.
WE: Basically. Yes that would be a fair comment.
Didn’t give it the power.
WE: That as well, but I don’t think the legislation really did either.
The Registrar couldn’t appoint an Administrator?
WE: Yes he could if he wanted to.
Well he had the power then.
WE: He had that, but I mean that wasn’t always what was needed. I mean you go a long way before you have to do that. In any respect to what we are used to today, the Stabilisation Fund didn’t have the clout to be able to get things done. It had to be a slow process.
I have seen what happened in New South Wales when the Registrar used to work with the Stabilisation Committee and they had an Administrator with a whole staff and they used to go and change the locks on a credit union on a Friday night and dismiss the Manager and the Board and take over the credit union.
WE: Was that in the days you are referring to now, the 1970s and that time? See that didn’t happen here until we had the Reserve Board in place and that is in the 1980s, in effect here in Victoria. That has happened here to, as no doubt you are aware, but it has been more of latter times than the early days.
Were you involved in any of those?
WE: None at all.
So have you got any examples of persuasion? They were more persuasive in Victoria and they have got no failures either. They have got two in New South Wales. They were people who disaffiliated and then failed.
WE: Not real failures. Well you I guess you could say it was because we were a little bit more conservative in those days than perhaps our New South Wales counterparts. From what I understand we followed more the Canadian style of credit union operations. I am not quite sure with this deficit budgeting that New South Wales had in those days, what sort of lead they were taking from where. I am not sure, but it was certainly somewhat different to what we had.
What was your idea of deficit budgeting here?
WE: Well my idea was dead against that sort of thing anyway, from my background and experience. But as I understood deficit budgeting you would project ahead as to what you were going to do to get members and get loans and you would borrow to the hilt wherever you could get your money under whatever circumstances to get growth. If it meant it took you five years, then every year you would have a trading deficit to get business and get growth and profitability was something that was unheard of.
You were against that?
WE: Dead right I was. Only one in this State did it and perhaps got away with it, because of legislation allowing it, and that was the Police Association Credit Union. I had direct involvement with the Manager of the time.
They had trouble at one time.
WE: They did at one time, but they got themselves out of it.
They got some money from Queensland.
WE: Yes, they got money from wherever they could get it, as I understood it. But they certainly couldn’t get any money out of the VCCA because we were dead against that style of trading.
Merv Callaghan, the fellow in Queensland Police, lent them some money. It was highly illegal from his State point of view. But it wouldn’t be illegal from Victoria’s point of view, coming in.
WE: No it is the going out aspect.
I am trying to get at the skills that must have been used to persuade, or coerce shall we say, credit unions into taking the advice rather than disaffiliating.
WE: Well some did disaffiliate of course. I mean I can’t recall who they were or under what circumstances. The thing that I perhaps found is that credit unions were not easy to do all those things, to coerce. We tried hard, we tried to sell it. That was my style, because of my upbringing, to always try and encourage people and have them realise this was the best course of action, but it didn’t always work. Boards were pretty stubborn in those days and they knew better than anybody else, even if they were doing the wrong thing in our view. The VCCA also didn’t have the charisma that it has now. In other words it was a small operation in those days. I think there were only about ten of us on the staff of the VCCA when we started. So we were a very small operation and we needed all the support we could get. Now you take all those things into account, we are talking about a different scene altogether. Credit unions often didn’t take any notice of us. So how did we coerce them, how did we encourage them, I don’t know. We didn’t always do that. Sometimes they took notice of some of the things we said, but not all the things we said.
So you think it was luck they didn’t have any failures?
WE: There would be an element of truth in that. I think some commonsense here and there prevailed at times, but I think the market place was such that because we weren’t perhaps as New South Wales so progressive in taking chances, we didn’t take too many chances and that is what saved us.
That is something I hadn’t thought of. But you were still very successful. More successful than they were in New South Wales in that sense.
WE: Well only because of that conservative approach and the market was right at the time to be able to absorb that. In other words, if it was under today’s circumstances it would be a different kettle of fish. I wouldn’t like to say what it would probably be today. I mean in those days there was a need and people generally seemed to be more susceptible to wanting to have something of their own, more so than they are today. It wasn’t open slather. It wasn’t deregulated banking like we see today. Therefore the market was right for people to accept the philosophical approach to credit unions. I think that is what saved us.
So was that your only job here, Field Officer?
WE: Basically it was, yes.
The Stabilisation Fund was already set up, Central Banking was already set up?
WE: The Central Bank had just been set up when I got here.
So did you see the development of that?
WE: Oh yes. Part of my role was to go and try out and sell it to credit unions, which was a difficult task, but it did get going.
Who was handling it from this end?
WE: Don Matlock, a fellow called Don Matlock. Have you come across that name? He was the guy handling that.
So how would you go about selling it?
WE: Well assuming that I new what it was all about in the first place, I would go out and certainly find out, by getting into the credit union, what they were currently doing. I would try and find the pros and cons of what we were offering and put the points to them.
So what were you offering?
WE: Well basically a centralised pooling system, which is what we talk about today even at a national level.
You weren’t selling individual products? Central Banking was a product?
WE: That was a product itself.
You didn’t sell them on the individual investments?
WE: No. Just what it would do for them and the lines it would provide for them and the service of the banking facility. It was fairly limited compared with what we have got today. We didn’t have cards, we didn’t have personalised cheques, so there are many more things in it now.
Did they invest? Was it overnight banking?
WE: Yes you could get overnight banking in those days, certainly.
Was it electronic?
WE: No.
Mail?
WE: Basically.
I mean you couldn’t go on a telephone and the documentation to follow?
WE: Oh I am sure that did happen but I wasn’t in the operational side, that was Don’s area. I am sure he did many things to help credit unions.
The first year you started was?
WE: 1974.
That was the year Dermot Ryan resigned from AFCUL. He was trying to start a Central Bank. Was that conflicting?
WE: I didn’t know enough about it. I wasn’t at that level, didn’t know what the politics was. I did even understand the politics of credit unions in those days.
I know he was operating a Central Banking system. He was operating by telephone on the nod and a few people objected to that sometimes.
WE: I can’t comment.
Fair enough if you don’t have any knowledge of it. So you weren’t at any AFCUL meetings at that time?
WE: No. The only AFCUL meeting that I went to was one when I was at the Ballarat Credit Union. That is my first AFCUL meeting.
What other things did you sell apart from Central Banking?
WE: Well any products that we felt would better serve the credit unions to use to benefit the member services that we were offering at the time, whatever they might have been.
Can you remember some of them?
WE: Gosh that is a hard one.
Was there an insurance service?
WE: Yes that was mostly CIC Insurance in those days. Certainly we weren’t permitted to encourage credit unions to use the CUNA Mutual system.
Did Clarrie Murphy come down here selling CIC at that stage, or was that earlier?
WE: That must have been earlier. I know the name, but I never got involved.
You were selling CIC, not selling it but encouraging them to use it rather than CUNA Mutual?
WE: Certainly. That was an instruction that I had.
You didn’t know anything about CUNA Mutual did you?
WE: No. I knew nothing about CUNA Mutual. I mean I was here to do a job and that is what I was doing in those days to the best of my ability. I didn’t know CIC, CUNA Mutual or any of those companies. I did know of other companies but that was through my finance company experience. Those companies weren’t involved in those days with credit unions at all.
So what other services were they offering at that time?
WE: Very hard to remember what services they were. They were fairly basic things. I think probably most of it was in the accounting area, that we were providing a service to credit unions to utilise, to standardise their accounting system along the New South Wales system. That was very much in vogue in those days. There was nothing on computers or anything like that in those days. So it was a matter of providing credit unions with the opportunity to use any services that could make it easier for them. Obviously some of the things that we were involved in, and I was involved a lot in, was in this lending area. I mean I developed a policy that a lot of credit unions used as a standard policy for loans, which they hadn’t even thought of.
Did you get legal advice for that or did you develop it yourself?
WE: I developed it myself, basically, but it was all of course in line with what the Co-operation Act 1958 would allow, which was fairly open anyway. It was a matter of bringing to bear commonsense and past experience into something people could understand and implement.
Was it vetted by the Solicitor?
WE: It may have been, but not to my knowledge.
Did you know them?
WE: Marnie and Galvin, very well. Not in those days, but I have since.
John Galvin.
WE: Yes John is a great man.
So as far as the computerisation, I suppose you must have seen the first efforts of people trying to put together a system and the various competing systems in the early days?
WE: Certainly very much involved in that area. But I was running a credit union myself in those days.
So that was after you left the VCCA?
WE: Yes. I was only here for two years and then I went to Ballarat Credit Union as Manager at that time. A lot of those things you are referring to now, developed after that time.
Well is there anything that should be said about the time you were here? Who was the Manager at that time?
WE: Geoff Conrad.
Did you see anything of his rise and fall, so to speak?
WE: Well I left actually when Geoff fell. He was already here when I came and I had very little to do with him. I wasn’t at that level. Phil was my immediate superior, so I didn’t get involved in anything at that level. If you consider that I spent most of my time out in the field, I didn’t see very much that was going on here.
Have you got any field stories you can tell, before we go on?
WE: Very hard to actually, because they sort of pale into the past. There was nothing that I could really say other than the fact that I got to know a lot of people, both Directors and management and staff over the years, which I found to be a great asset in the years that have followed. They were a lot of decent people, with their hearts in the right place. They sometimes took a lot of convincing, but I haven’t really met anybody that I would have said, in all those years, I didn’t like or admire in some way.
Did you know Gordon Farrer?
WE: Very well indeed. I loved Gordon Farrer.
End Tape 1A: 5118 Words: 1 hour 35 minutes

14 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO WARREN EDWARDS
Since you were only such a short period at the VCCA, I will ask you first how you got the job at the outside credit union, and then your view of the VCCA from out there.
WE: Right, well this was in 1976 and still while I was a Field Officer here in this particular building where you are interviewing today. Many of us belonged to the Musicians Union, which is about two steps down. Every Friday night we all used to have a drink up there. I was standing there one night at about seven o’clock at night having a drink and in rolled Gordon Farrer. He had just came back from Ballarat where they were trying to put three parish credit unions together to make one with a large industrial, large in those days, called M B John. They were forming the Ballarat Co-operative Credit Union and Phillip Elliott was very much involved in that. They had been advertising for some time for a Manager and as Gordon said, “They all want too much money.” So we were standing there talking, he was talking about how frustrating it was at Ballarat not finding a Manager and the way people were not getting together and putting this thing together. So Gordon said to me, “Why don’t you apply for the job at Ballarat Credit Union?” I said, “Don’t be silly, I have got a family here in Melbourne, I am not going to Ballarat to live. That is a cold old hole to go living in.” Then he kept working at me for quite some time and I don’t think I got home too early that Friday night, must have been about ten o’clock by the time I got home after Farrer had been working on me religiously trying to talk me into going to Ballarat. Well as it happened I did go to Ballarat and I did get the job, I did take the job at a lesser salary than what was being offered, just to get it going, on the basis that if I made a good go of it the future would take care of itself. I was there nearly six years. In that time I think they were some of the best years I have had in a credit union, certainly in the community environment when I lived and worked in Ballarat. I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of the time I was there.
What was your view of the VCCA at that time? What was going on? Was the Teledata business going on? Were you being asked to invest in Jubilee Lake?
WE: All those things. Interestingly enough, our credit union did invest in both of those originally, but we did go to a lot of meetings to discuss them, in fact we were responsible for actually calling a Special Meeting in relation to Jubilee Lake. Jubilee Lake was very close being in Daylesford to Ballarat and so we had a fairly close involvement with the development of that. Unfortunately, we weren’t always in tune with what the VCCA was wanting to do and as a result of that on one occasion one of our Directors, who was our representative on the Jubilee Lake Committee, forced a Special General Meeting to discuss the future of Jubilee Lake. We asked a lot of very pertinent questions and at that particular time, under the regime of Mr Hildebrand, they had actually employed a consultant who before he got started was paid $50,000. Now what we were asking was what were we getting for that.
That wasn’t Leon Turner was it?
WE: No Leon Turner had actually been involved in the early stages. He was a consultant who was brought in to create it in the first instance. I was still at the VCCA when that was actually started, but he stayed on for quite some time. In fact, Leon Turner actually was employed by the VCCA for a very short time, in between Managers. No I can’t even remember the fellow’s name, but he was some architect-type fellow and he had a grand scheme of what Jubilee Lake was going to be. The trouble was that it was all talk and we weren’t satisfied with the action. So people were pouring money in, meaning credit unions, and not getting any result for it. So there was a great deal of concern both by our credit union and quite a few others, but not enough unfortunately to swing the day. So the end result was that a lot of credit unions lost a lot of money in Jubilee Lake. Of course I think Jubilee Lake now is under Council hands without any Convention Centre.
You said that your credit union got involved in Teledata as well?
WE: We didn’t actually. We certainly put some capital into Teledata along with other credit unions.
The purchase of Teledata?
WE: Yes the purchase of Teledata. I must say that in those days we were in favour of Teledata. There were only about two credit unions that I can recall out of all the credit unions affiliated with the movement at that time that screamed that it was the wrong move to make. We were one of those that were in favour of it.
Had you looked at GCS by that time?
WE: Only when we started to look at getting into computers ourselves. Quite a few credit unions had already gone into computers. Some, very few, had gone to GCS, but most of them were on the Teledata system. That perhaps was a very awkward time in Ballarat when there was a lot of pressure put on me personally as the Manager in making a decision to go to Teledata or GCS. In fact we were the only community credit union in Victoria that went to GCS, making that final decision. So I guess we were a bit game to do that outside of the system.
Was that before FCS was set up?
WE: That was before FCS was set up. FCS itself was going in Sydney at the time.
So you got the software as well?
WE: We got the GCS software of the time.
Well in that case you got the best of all worlds.
WE: Well that is what we thought at the time, but everybody else thought we had done the wrong thing. There was a lot of pressure put on me and put on the credit union, a lot of behind the scenes negotiating going on that I didn’t know about, to try and encourage, push us, into Teledata. In fact we stood firm and went to GCS and got all that paraphernalia, we had AWA computers and we were the first community credit union in Victoria to do that.
Did you go and look at SEC’s operation?
WE: Yes we did and Gas. Gas and SEC were the two credit unions that were using it. We actually employed a consultant ourselves to assist us in the technical side of looking at and he came up with the recommendation to go to GCS.
Did you see GCS in operation in Defence in Victoria before it went to New South Wales?
WE: No. I didn’t.
You have got to realise it came from Western Australia to Victoria before it went to New South Wales.
WE: Well I didn’t know it came to Victoria before it went to New South Wales but I know it emanated in Western Australia. Certainly the three gentlemen that were running it, Andy Phelan, I think it was, Brian Dean and the other fellow, Nigel somebody or other, were the three fellows that started it in Western Australia.
Did you have much to do with them?
WE: Initially with Nigel I did, because he was the fellow they sent over from GCS. Unfortunately I felt he let us down a bit. But Brian Dean was the one I had most to do with.
Did you come across Les Robinson coming round selling GCS?
WE: Never. I met Les Robinson later on, but that was when he had actually retired from the League.
Oh he had retired from the League, he was setting up on his own.
WE: Was he? I never had any exposure to him at all.
He was setting up with them to market it.
WE: Right. No, never had any contact. We dealt directly with GCS in those days. See AWA and GCS were hand in glove in those days and because of the AWA presentation we were dealing with Brian Dean.
I think the reason for that was John McIntyre, because he was AWA Credit Union. He got it. He and his wife, Helen McIntyre, their two credit unions got it first. They saw it in operation in Western Australia and Victoria. Then they got the AWA software in and the next thing you know it is all off. Then of course New South Wales was looking and they decided the only way they were going to do it was being the senior partner. Les Robinson was therefore displaced.
WE: I knew nothing of that.
I just wondered whether he came round Victoria selling. I haven’t heard from anybody to tell me he did. He was selling in New South Wales. But they weren’t going to work through him in spite of the fact that he had been the Manager, so they did a deal which cut him out. He was not very happy. But I suppose he would realise it would be inevitable. I mean they wouldn’t work through some individual in a thing like that.
WE: Well unless of course it looked like they would sell more sites using him. I suppose you could understand that would work. He was a high profile person in those days wasn’t he. If they thought it would be to their benefit of course they would. But obviously they did better by themselves.
Of course that didn’t help interstate because here you had to have a separate organisation didn’t you?
WE: You mean with Teledata?
Well you had to have some company in Victoria.
WE: I don’t quite follow you.
Well the New South Wales company of FCS/GCS couldn’t come across the border. They didn’t come across the border anyway, they set up another organisation here in Victoria.
WE: That’s right, that was GCS. That is the one you are referring to. But whether they could or couldn’t do it the way they did I wouldn’t have known. I didn’t understand that.
I wonder who might have the answer to that. Whether in fact there was a direct involvement with the New South Wales company of FCS/GCS, or whether they were dealing directly with GCS in Victoria. It ended up being called GCS/Teledata in Victoria didn’t it?
WE: Ah that is a different story all together. I might be able to help you a little bit on that one. But let us get over this first one, as I understand it Brian Dean was operating from Victoria for the GCS part, although he came from Western Australia. Andy Phelan was operating FCS in Sydney. I went to see Andy Phelan before we decided to go GCS to have a look at the FCS system and to look at sites over there that were utilising the system. Now I was given to understand in those days that the Western Australian group, the Victorian group and the New South Wales group were all one. It is just that they were all operating in different States. Now whether in fact they were definitely different companies I wouldn’t have a clue. Sorry, can’t answer that part of it. But I know they were working hand in glove. Often, in the early stages, they would send people from the West to see us in Ballarat while we were trying to get the thing up and going. Getting to the other question, in relation to the GCS/Teledata, what actually happened there was that Teledata, had to be controlled by the VCCA because the operations that were originally mooted by one Ken Steele were bought out and the VCCA bought the company. We had so much money involved in it, the credit union movement, that without losing the lot that was the only way to go. What they then did was that they brought Brian Dean in to run the organisation and so therefore the merger with GCS, because he owned GCS, as a partner of GCS with those other two chaps. So he was brought in and so was formed the GCS/Teledata name which was controlled by the VCCA.
It still doesn’t answer the question of the financial situation of the various companies, but probably Ken Miller would answer that I would think if I got to him.
WE: Yes possibly. You could ask him.
He is Chairman of all and sundry.
WE: I think he is Chairman of the Credit Union Foundation.
I think that is where he has gone now. I think he has given up his interests in FCS and all those sort of things.
WE: Well I don’t think he has got much choice, nobody has. I mean now with the Project Renewal that is happening to all credit unions in Australia of course that is going to be owned by one unit.
What is the attitude of your credit union to that?
WE: We are not in favour of it at this stage. We haven’t pledged. We are still subject to being enticed to, encouraged to, if we can see that everything is going to be best for our members. But we don’t believe it is in the best interests of the movement. We do believe in centralisation of the commercial side of the operations, but we are certainly not in favour the bureaucracy that is being created as a result of Project Renewal, at this point.
That is the ABC Credit Union of Victoria?
WE: Yes the ABC Credit Union of Victoria talking.
Is the ABC Credit Union of Victoria in another association, not the VCCA?
WE: No we are not, we are in the VCCA.
This gets terrible rattling doesn’t it.
WE: It can.
Well let’s continue with your view as a Manager of a member credit union of the VCCA. Is there anything else that you can remember? The services marketed during that time? Insurance. It was never marketed on a head lease through the VCCA in Victoria?
WE: I think there was with CIC and the VCCA. But we in Ballarat at that time had a fairly independent look at things generally and we ended up dealing with another insurer anyway. We weren’t satisfied that the CIC could provide us with the service range that we needed in the insurance area, and a number of other credit unions did the same thing.
Did they start to market insurance bonds at that stage?
WE: Never, not insurance bonds at all.
Now what else was going on at that time? The Reserve hadn’t been set up?
WE: No. They had a Stabilisation Fund which was under the auspices of the Government at that time.
Was this Statutory Deposits?
WE: No. As I recall it wasn’t until 1981 when that was brought in, the 7 per cent necessity to have liquidity. Before that time, under the 1958 Act, no there wasn’t. But they did amend the 1958 Act to have the Guarantee Fund come under the control of the Victorian Government, so it went out of the VCCA hands and went into the Victorian Government. You had people like John Galvin, whom you mentioned before, who was sitting on that Board with other people like Ralph Lewis, Warren Jungworth and a few other people who escape me now. Les Harcourt I think was on it, from SEC Credit Union. In those days there were a few credit unions ailing and we, for instance, took over one at Ararat ourselves that was ailing. I recall coming down to address that particular Board, if you call it a Board, to find out what assistance they would give us if we took over the Ararat Credit Union that was ailing at that time.
Did they?
WE: Yes, they sure did. They gave us a better deal than I think they give the credit unions today taking over credit unions.
Did you have any trouble with that takeover?
WE: No not really. It was a fairly small credit union and we were able to get it set up fairly quickly.
There were no dissenters?
WE: In relation to what?
In the other credit union?
WE: No. They were in favour of it, they wanted us to do it.
I was just after a story that is all. I have heard about battles at meetings.
WE: Yes I haven’t, believe it or not. Mainly the battles that I have experienced is when I was a Field Officer at the VCCA.
You didn’t tell me any.
WE: Didn’t I.
Have you got any?
WE: Not really. I mean they are just individual ones that probably went on when they are trying to make a decision about something. But I haven’t, as far as being in credit unions myself, struck any big battles that indicate that there is dissension between the Board and the members or anything like that. I have certainly been privy of course to arguments and so forth as a Manager amongst the Board and myself over the years, you would have to.
Fisticuffs?
WE: Never.
I have been told of stories of amalgamation meetings where there have been fisticuffs amongst the members.
WE: Never seen it. I must have been sheltered.
You don’t know about Sydney credit unions.
WE: Obviously Sydney is a different place altogether to Melbourne.
They were taking over the Botany Council, the City Council was taking over the Botany Council Employees and they did it on a Friday night the meeting, instead of a Monday and apparently it degenerated more than somewhat and they had to abandon it and have it another day.
WE: The closest I have got to that is having an Annual Meeting when they couldn’t get a quorum and that had to be put off for another month.
What about your view of the Managers of the VCCA? You were involved with Michael Hildebrand.
WE: I was never working here when he was.
No, I mean from outside?
WE: Well from outside I found him a very difficult man to deal with. He obviously wanted everything to go the way he wanted it and probably the climax was the dealing with the GCS/Teledata thing when we were trying to decide to make a rational decision for the best interest of our membership between GCS and Teledata. He applied some pressure behind my back which I found very distasteful. He went directly to the Chairman of the time, one Jim Muller, and tried to undermine me in the eyes of Jim Muller when we actually hadn’t made a decision. He indicated that we had and he wanted me done away with, in effect. Now it didn’t happen and fortunately I had at that time a very good relationship with Jim and the Board. Because we had that good relationship we very quickly nipped that in the bud. But in general terms, my dealings with him were not overly encouraging.
What about Phillip Elliott, did you have much to do with him? I mean he was your boss before.
WE: That’s right. Phil and I have always got on rather well together. We have had our differences mainly in relation to direction and interpretation. In those days Michael had left and the VCCA at that time was in a parlous state financially and Phil held it together. I give him top marks for what he did. He was only there for a short time. He was really only a caretaker at that time, but he did a fine job in that time. He needed all the support he could get and he had mine and my credit unions.
David Dinning?
WE: David Dinning, well I am very pro David Dinning. He came in at the right time. He was the right man for the right job. He had come from South Australia. The VCCA was going out the door. The Registrar didn’t know how to handle it, that was Warren Jungworth, didn’t know what to do. The movement itself was falling apart. In other words there was a lot of sniping going on. The VCCA was losing credibility amongst its members and amongst other organisations in the banking fraternity. David came in and he pulled it together. Took him about five years to do it, but my gosh he did. He had the right sort of charisma and the ability to get things done.
Some have suggested that he didn’t perhaps have the financial skills and that was why there was a parting of the ways.
WE: I think that is a fair comment, but I think it goes deeper than that. David had run his race here. I think he was tired. I don’t think it was that he didn’t have the financial skills, he had employed the right sort of people. There was one here, Ed Forth, who was very good in the financial area, highly respected in the movement, and he was his second-in-charge. He was a first class operator. I think David was smart enough to have the right people working for him. Probably David’s biggest weakness, if there was to be one, was that he couldn’t hold a team together. Whilst he employed a good bloke in Ed Forth he couldn’t always employ the right sort of people to do the right sort of jobs in other areas. I think that in the end was his downfall. But he certainly pulled a lot of credit unions together. Then at the time before he left a few of them started to leave because they felt that he wasn’t strong enough to cope with the changing times that were happening. I think that is a fair comment. Without denigrating David, I think his time had run out.
You had your problems with your own credit union Board didn’t you?
WE: I certainly did. Not with ABC, far from it that is a wonderful situation. Ballarat, we fell apart there. That was back in 1982.
Was there a change in the Board?
WE: There had been about eighteen months prior to it and that was the beginning of the end for me.
What were the main items of disagreement?
WE: Well I think it was in the fact that when we originally started the credit union in Ballarat Jim Muller and the Board came to me and said, “Look we don’t know how to run a credit union of this size, we are relying on you. Will you teach us how to be Directors and how to handle this and run the show?” which I duly did. What I didn’t recognise when we changed, we got some more higher qualified people on the Board, and I was responsible for getting them on, and they virtually turned on me. They felt I was doing things outside of the charter I had as a General Manager. Even though I had a contract which clearly indicated that I should be doing what I was doing they wanted to have more say themselves. I didn’t recognise that and I think it built up over time to such an extent that they eventually decided to dispense with me. It was really also the thing that I felt they were moving in a direction which was going to be bad for the credit union against what I felt was going to be progressive for the future growth of the credit union.
What direction were they moving in then?
WE: Well they were tyring to pull it back. We were going ahead rather well. At that time I think we had about $5.5 million in assets and I could see that the market was such that we could grow further. I was into buying larger property, extending our services and looking to branch out and takeover other credit unions in outlying areas. At that time the Board was a bit frightened of that, they felt that we were going ahead too fast, that we couldn’t do it, that we shouldn’t do it. As it turns out since I have gone they have of course gone ahead and taken over a lot of other credit unions in the area. But at that time they were frightened.
So you had a parting of the ways. You were on contract to the VCCA?
WE: Yes only for a short time. That was David Dinning giving me a role to play. I couldn’t find a job and I worked with them for three months just going out and doing similar work to what I did before, but perhaps mainly in the marketing area.
Where did you go from there?
WE: Well Gavin Cook from Dandenong offered me a position. He had just taken over three branches of Penninsular which is down the Frankston area and he was looking for a Manager to run that. He made me an offer which I felt was quite satisfactory and so I took that.
Were you on any committees on the VCCA during this period?
WE: Over the years I have been on different committees, Marketing mainly. The had marketing committees and I was very involved in that. Apart from that I have only really attended different target meetings, committees for a particular purpose, whatever a project might be and then it was dispensed with. Yes I have been on a few.
The marketing committees, were they State marketing pushes or national any of them?
WE: No they were basically State. They were pulled together on the basis of trying to improve the image of credit unions in Victoria. I had been involved with a community credit union group through Ballarat and I ended up being the Chairman of a company called CUMAD Services, about thirteen community credit unions in Victoria formed this company which was set into marketing an image. You may have heard of it, Credit Union Join a Friend Campaign, well I was the Chairman of that company for quite some time, until I went to Dandenong Credit Union. Then of course Gavin Cook wouldn’t allow me to stay on the Board of that. So having had that experience it was helpful to me to be on these marketing committees for the VCCA after that time.
How did you get to the ABC Credit Union?
WE: Well the previous Manager, one John Owen, was retiring and it was just by pure chance that I discovered that this job was coming up for grabs. I thought it had been promised to somebody else and there was a falling out of the ways there between the Manager and the staff and a deputation so that fellow left and then they advertised the position and I found out about that. I applied and I was lucky enough to get it.
Now how has that been different?
WE: In what way.
After all it is an industrial credit union and a public service one, as opposed to the community credit unions you have been in for a number of years.
WE: Yes it is certainly a change, there is no doubt about that. Though because of its bond of membership it does take in a community-style environment because it takes in not just the public service, it covers anybody in the media or entertainment industry, so it is fairly wide. Yes, it took a little bit of getting used to, a public service way of thinking. I guess I have changed to cope with that, but also I think I have broadened their approach to the general community aspect of the credit union. It has worked out to be a wonderful combination and I have got a very good Board of Directors.
Have you been involved with the VCCA since then?
WE: Not to any great extent. I was supposed to have served on an Ethics Committee at one stage, but that seemed to dry up, probably because of Project Renewal. I have been on different things as they have occurred, but not of any length. I did apply once to go on the Board of the VCCA. I did also apply to stand for election for either the Trade Association or the other one, I can’t remember which, but I know I got defeated on both counts.
At AICUM, you are one of the members of that?
WE: I am currently Vice-President of the Victorian Division of AICUM now. I have been involved in AICUM since its inception. Prior to that actually, I was one of the first people of the Credit Union Executive Society of America when they set up in Australia to be a member of that. So I have been involved virtually since those days.
Can you remember the moves in those days towards the setting up of CUES?
WE: Yes, well I went to America in 1979 and that was a result of a fellow called Mike Welch from CUES coming out from the United States to see if there was any possibility of setting up in Australia. There were some people who were already members of CUES in Australia, ones like Graham Benson who virtually was the convenor of setting up a committee to discuss what would happen. That was at the Melbourne Motor Inn, the old Melbourne Inn down the road here. I went to that committee meeting and we decided that we would give it a go. So we did and we had our first conference in Albury, where we are going in the next couple of weeks, to a great big 450 participants at the Albury one.
I’ll be there. You have given the Historical Co-operative space.
WE: Is that right? Good. Well I will see you there. So that was the start. We had our first conference in Albury and that must have been in February 1979. I went to America and found out a lot more about CUES, came back and kept working on it, getting involved more and more in that area and then we had problems because there were so many unaffiliated credit unions in Victoria.
End Tape 1B: 5112 Words: 1 hour 40 minutes