RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO THOMAS (TOM) DEIGAN
I will ask you Mr Deigan, where were you born and when?
TD: I was born in Corrimal, which is New South Wales, approximately five kilometres north of Wollongong.
Did you grow up around there?
TD: Yes I spent probably twenty years of my life in Corrimal until such times as I got married and moved out of the area.
Growing up around there, what do you remember? What did you do as a kid for amusement?
TD: Lot of bush walking. We were just below the escarpment, a lot of it is built out now there are a lot of new homes in that area. In the early days, in my youth, it was a ten minute walk and you could be in the bush as they call it. Didn’t play a lot of sport. Spent a lot of time playing around with billy-carts and things like that because we were on a reasonably steep hill which was always a lot of fun going down. Had a few spills. Couple of times where I put myself off school for a few days because of my injuries. Apart from that there was nothing major in my early days that were unusual.
What did you like and dislike about school? Where did you go to school?
TD: I was educated in the Catholic school system. I went to the Catholic school at Corrimal, which again was about five minutes walk from home so it was very easy to get to. I wasn’t a brilliant student by any stretch of the imagination. I suppose I was sort of in the mediocre range. No particular likes or dislikes at schools. I think sometimes probably joining the work force I found that school hadn’t prepared me very well for that. I think that is still the situation.
What sort of influence did you get from your father and mother?
TD: Mother was a pretty quiet person and in a lot of ways I take after her. My father was not noisy or gregarious or anything like that, but he had a sort of a stronger will and tended to want his way. In some ways I got that trait of my father and the quietness of my mother.
Was he a miner?
TD: No. He went into the mines later in life but he started off truck driving and a motor mechanic and that sort of thing. He did that for quite a long time. In matter of fact I was married before he eventually got a job in a coal mine. He thought I was doing so well that he would follow in my footsteps rather than vice versa.
Was he involved with the unions at all?
TD: Only for a short time while he was in the mining industry. He was in the mining industry I think about twelve or fourteen years, up until the time of his death. He had some involvement, but it wasn’t very much really.
Was he of Labor persuasion?
TD: I really don’t know. That is sort of something that we never had any in-depth discussion about. I think he would have had a leaning towards Labor. Both mum and dad, if you tried to press them on who they voted for in an election they wouldn’t tell you.
So you didn’t really sort of pick up any strong leanings from them, you made up your own mind?
TD: Well I was virtually allowed to. I sort of went which ever way I wanted. I wasn’t deterred from doing anything of that particular nature in my life.
So when you left school where did you get your first job?
TD: I started work in the steel works at Port Kembla as an apprentice fitter and turner. I stayed there for twelve months. Actually I left school when I was just over fifteen years old, you could do that in 1959 I think it was. I was at the steel works for twelve months until I could get into the coal mine, you had to be sixteen to start work in the coal mine. Then I went into a coal mine and continued on my trade, finished it in the coal mine and I have been there ever since, in the same mine.
Which one is that?
TD: Newbow Colliery, it is owned by BHP. I have been there thirty years this December now.
Are you still working in maintenance?
TD: No I am Assistant Mechanical Engineer at the moment, and have been for probably the last sixteen years.
What does that entail?
TD: Managing administration of the underground mechanical maintenance. Everything that happens mechanically underground is virtually my responsibility on day-shift, to ensure that it is kept running and that the maintenance is kept up to it and scheduled servicing are done at the appropriate times. Attending to breakdowns, just the general run of mechanical engineering maintenance.
Where did you first hear about credit unions?
TD: In the mining industry when the Collieries Employees’ Credit Union was formed, which was around about 1967, from my memory.
Do you know who were the leading lights in forming it?
TD: The Miners’ Federation of the day were one of the leading people.
Was Bill Parkinson President at that time?
TD: Not from my recollection he wasn’t. I think Waldus Mart, or Pinchus Mart as he was nicknamed, was the President at the time, although my memory is not clear on it.
Was he before or after Bill Parkinson?
TD: Bill Parkinson was well before Pinchus.
I recorded him a little while ago, as I told you, and I was wondering if there was any connection there. Did you meet Bill Parkinson?
TD: No, as I said, I seem to recollect that he was sort of moving out, or retiring if you like, from that side of the industry around about the time I moved into it. I think the names that I can remember connected with the Miners’ Federation were Pinchus Mart, going back to those days, a fellow called Cramer, I don’t recall the first name. Then a fellow called Taffy Smails, he came from the colliery that I work at. In later days the John Hogans, Les Allsons and a few of the others which are around now.
Who was the Foundation Chairman of the mining credit union?
TD: Well is was called originally the Collieries Employees’ Credit Union, which formed within what were then called the AIS Collieries. AIS had something like nine or ten collieries at the time which were all along the coast line. They have since closed three or four of them down and merged a couple of others. It was formed in the Illawarra area amongst the AIS Collieries, plus the Collieries’ Central Office and the Union Office in Wollongong. The Foundation Chairman I don’t recall. The Chairman when I became involved was Ross Kerr who at that time worked at Corrimal Colliery.
Can you remember the year when you first became involved?
TD: The year I came on the Board of the Collieries Employees’ Credit Union was 1969.
Had you been a member long before that?
TD: I had been a member since 1967. As a matter of fact I have still got my original receipt for the deposit on the share holding, which I happened to turn up in some papers a couple of months ago. It was just unusual. I was looking for something, not connected with Collieries, something to do with Illawarra going back into the 1972 and 1973 era and I found this original receipt, so it is a sort of memento that I keep now.
When you went on the Board, who invited you or suggested you put up for it?
TD: Well a circular went around the mine saying that the Annual Meeting was on. I thought I didn’t know much about the credit union and I decided to go along and have a look. It was held on a Sunday morning because it was quite often the thing in those days that Annual Meetings of the credit union be held on a Sunday morning because of the people that worked shift work and worked Saturdays. Most mines closed on a Sunday, so there would be more chance of getting the majority of people there on a Sunday, so it was usually Sunday morning at 10.00 o’clock in a Leagues Club or somewhere like that, which was where the Collieries was held at the time. I went to it and there were at time ten people there, nine Directors and a Secretary-Manager. I turned up and made the quorum I think. I walked into the Annual Meeting as a member and walked out as a Director. I have been a Director ever since. In those days that wasn’t unusual for that to happen. That was one of the things that annoyed me at the time that there were so few people attending their credit union Annual Meeting and it was something I made a bit of an effort at ensuring that the attendances at least were greater than ten or eleven at the next Annual Meeting.
I don’t think this was unusual amongst many credit unions either.
TD: That’s pretty true. I suppose as you go around talking to other people who were credit union Directors, going back twenty years ago, it was quite the norm. They would get a few members to come to the Annual Meeting but those who would put themselves up as a Director were few and far between.
I get the impression they didn’t get many members coming to the Annual Meeting until they put the grog on.
TD: Well the grog was on here and there was a meal arranged afterwards, nothing fancy of course, but beer and bickies sort of thing. It wasn’t very well advertised was my main concern with it and one of the things I did when I got on the Board was to ensure that there was better publicity. I think at our next Annual Meeting we had something like thirty or forty people there and the following one after that there was about sixty or seventy. It was just through an improvement in advertising the fact that the Annual Meeting was on, a few posters that were bright and hung up on walls around various collieries and it brought some interested members in.
Not too much difficulty really.
TD: Convincing people to spend in those days it might have been $30 to get twenty or thirty bright posters printed was difficult because the feeling was people weren’t interested so why spend that money. My argument was if they wanted the people there you are not doing anything about getting them, spend some money on it and if it was a failure, try something else. I remember one meeting where we talking about the quality of the newsletter which came out periodically. It was a sort of a roneoed, photocopied thing that didn’t have much going for it. I and another Director evolved I suppose a draft of what we would thought would be a good newsletter for today, which was a printed one and it had a couple of different colours in it and it had a few ads in it, which again was a normal thing of the day. We presented that and they complained about the cost of that. As a matter of fact at one meeting I was threatened with being expelled from the meeting because I told them that their newsletter was cheap. If they wanted people to respect the organisation, they should spend some time and a little bit of effort in improving the quality of the publication that came from the place. I eventually won that one, I persisted.
You remember some of the other Directors at that time?
TD: Yes there was a fellow called Bob Headley, he is still around. As a matter of fact I saw his picture in the paper a couple of days ago, he had his fortieth wedding anniversary. He has since retired. Brian Upton was a Director at the time, he died seven or eight years ago. George Hatcher, he was an elderly Director when I was on the Board and I was in my probably middle to late twenties. Of course I was always the youngest Director on the Board. As I said Ross Kerr, fellow called George Hart, he used to work at one of the collieries, he has died. A fellow named George, can’t think of his last name but it was a sort of German-sounding name. Fellow called Tom Perrier, he died while he was a Director; in his forties as a matter of fact. Barry Boone, who I still see from time to time.
Were they from all the collieries from down there or were they all from one?
TD: They tended to be one Director from each colliery. I think the rules stated in the early days that there had to be a Director from each colliery. That was amended later so there had to be nine Directors eventually representing all the collieries. That was one of the things in the early days, every one had to have their representative there. After a while people got comfortable with the organisation and those and came and went sometimes there were two Directors from one colliery, which became a regular thing after a while. It was just a matter of getting someone from each mine so that you had a representative of the credit union at that particular mine that members could go and talk to, someone who could pin up notices on noticeboards and collect money. In those days each of the Directors had a receipt book and collected money. In the early days there were no pay-roll deductions that didn’t come until a few months down the track, pay-roll deductions becoming available. But they still had a receipt book for taking deposits on shares and so on, a membership fee of 50 cents.
There was no Secretary-Manager or anything like that?
TD: No, in the early days there was a paid employee who was a part-time youngish woman in her early twenties or something.
She used to do the bookkeeping?
TD: In combination with a couple of Directors she did.
Did you get involved in that at all?
TD: I personally avoided that sort of work. By the time I got on to it there was a Secretary-Manager appointed.
Who was that?
TD: That was George Barr, his name was.
Is he still in the industry, or has he retired now?
TD: He resigned from the Collieries Employees’ Credit Union in I think about 1971 and his position was taken by Barry Kelly. So that is where Barry’s involved started with the credit union. George actually worked in Mines before he took the Secretary-Manager’s job on and then from Collieries Employees’ Credit Union moved into real estate. I think he retired from that several years ago.
Where did you employ Barry Kelly from?
TD: Barry used to work for a local motor parts dealer called Tommy Young. I think he had worked there for four or five years as an accountant, or something in that particular field. I don’t recall his exact title at the time. We advertised for a Secretary-Manager mainly locally and Barry was the successful applicant. There were three or four possibles, but he looked the best, probably because he also had some knowledge of the credit union because he was a member of Southern Mutual at the time.
How did the Collieries Employees’ Credit Union get involved with the New South Wales League? Or was it involved with the Association of Southern Credit Unions first?
TD: No, the Collieries Employees’ had an involvement with both the League and the Southern Association of the day. The League I think was the one that promoted the Mining Unions to become involved with the formation of a credit union. There was some antipathy between the League and the Southern Association of the day, which was also reflective of the feelings between BHP Port Kembla and the Australian Iron and Steel Collieries and the various union feelings between both of the organisations. The AI&S Employees’ Credit Union was formed around about that time as well, and it offered to be an adviser in the formation of the Collieries Employees’ Credit Union but didn’t want anything to do with those ruddy coal miners who were always going on strike and had a terrible record of disruption and disharmony and that sort of thing. Because of the nature of BHP at the time, it had a very paternalistic nature and it is only losing it in the last five or six years, it tended to be one where it was a matter of if you didn’t do things their way then it wouldn’t be done at all. That reflected itself in the relationship between BHP credit union of the day and the Australian Iron and Steel, Illawarra Collieries as it was called, as I said there was this antipathy between the two unions without getting involved in anything else. Apart from the Federated Ironworkers Association, which was deemed to be right-wing at the time, and all the other unions which were deemed to be left-wing there was sort of black and white and neither the twain would meet. The upshot of it all was that the New South Wales League was, if you like, the sponsoring body and gave the Collieries Employees’ Credit Union all the support that it needed in those early days because they were very busy, very heady days in the 1967 to 1975 period, where credit unions were still being formed in great numbers. We hadn’t got to the stage in the early 1970s when they started to get a few failures and people looked like losing money and the brakes were put on the development of them and more time was spent on consolidation.
Who came down from the League, can you remember? Was it from Clarrie Murphy’s day or not?
TD: No Clarrie had sort of moved away from the League, I am thinking 1960. He might have still been involved with the League but we didn’t see much of him.
No, he joined ASCU at that time. He brought Punchbowl Credit Union, which is one he was a member of, into the Association of Southern Credit Unions.
TD: Well I am not too sure on the history of that side of it. The people involved at the Southern Association sort of had their story on it. I believe although Punchbowl is back in the Association, the elements where Clarrie Murphy was involved and a number of people from newspaper credit unions, I can’t think of their names but the credit union was called Broadway Credit Union now, Sun-Herald, well there were a couple of people involved with that who had strong views. They were in the League of the day and then they broke off and formed another association called the Central Association.
Were you involved in any of that insurance split?
TD: Not on the insurance side. We had our own views on the insurance. With the insurance it was sort of reasonably clear-cut by the time I got into the in-depth side of it. The League had an Annual Meeting where they decided to withdraw their endorsement of CUNA-CUMIS and endorse another one, which I think at the time was Co-operative Insurance Company.
Clarrie Murphy was selling it at that time.
TD: Well the co-operative element used to have a part to play in all of this and I wasn’t quite aware of the co-operative’s side of it, I was only involved in the credit union side. There were people with a broader canvas who would say that credit unions are co-operatives, even though they changed the Credit Union Act in 1969 because credit unions originally were formed and registered under the Co-operative Act. That was changed in 1969.
Were you involved at all in that legislation, lobbying for it?
TD: No, as I said I got on to the Board in 1969. I think the legislation was in place by that time. Everything was new to me it was very much on a steep learning curve in 1969 and probably was until around about 1977.
The Collieries Employees’ Credit Union was still going at the time you went on the Board of the Association?
TD: No Collieries Employees’ had merged with Southern Mutual in 1972.
How did that happen?
TD: The merger took place from discussions between both of our credit unions. It was something that had been talked about, sort of background discussion, because in those days credit unions locally used to get together a lot. There would be virtually one meeting every five or six weeks of the local Chapter where there would be a lot of people because it was early days for credit unions and people were trying to find out as much as they could about running their credit unions. If there was a speaker from the League down, well there would be a lot of people go to that meeting just to see what was going on, the transferring of information backwards and forwards. So we met and knew the various people, particularly the Directors and the staffs, of most of the credit unions in the area and had good contact with them. We knew the people at Southern Mutual quite well and the suggestion was made. I think it was Roy Nicholson that made the suggestion that the two credit unions get together and talk about an amalgamation. That was the term that was used at the time, amalgamation. We formed a new credit union from the two older credit unions, or the two former credit unions, and gave it a new name which was Illawarra Credit Union. Both the former credit unions went out of existence and the new one took over. That took place probably over a six month period from our initial discussions. It was something new for the Registry, and the Registry before they could tell us how we could proceed with the amalgamation had to read up some English law on it. The English law related to the merging of building societies and we had to have a ballot prepared for posting to every member of both credit unions stating the fors and againsts of an amalgamation, what the new organisation would be called, its asset structure and what we planned to do, a draft proposal to put to the membership. I think the term used was the Draft Proposal of Amalgamation. This was posted to all of our members and we had to have a certain percentage of our members agree to the amalgamation otherwise it wouldn’t be registered. I think out of a membership at the time of about 2,500 to 3,000 we got something like over 1,000 replies supporting it. It wasn’t sufficient, according to the first indication the Registry laid down, but after some negotiation they agreed to accept that the amalgamation was supported by enough members to make it viable. So the amalgamation proceeded.
Was David Nelson involved at that time?
TD: Yes he was a Director of the Southern Mutual Credit Union at the time and he went on to the amalgamated Board, we had a Board of fifteen in the new credit union, which was eventually reduced to nine after about eighteen months. He was one of those who stood aside because he transferred his business from Wollongong up to Sydney and was spending most of his time up in Sydney, he actually had moved to Sydney at the time of the amalgamation.
You say the form of amalgamation was unusual, was transfers of engagements used at that stage in the proceedings?
TD: No, transfers of engagements weren’t even mentioned at that point in time. As I said, it was the first amalgamation of a credit union in New South Wales. At the time, because of my involvement, I was on the Education and Promotion Committee of Collieries Employees’ and sort of got that job when I came on to the Board of Illawarra, I wrote into the Quest magazine of the day, which was a paper which was circularised to all credit unions, and claimed it was the first known amalgamation in Australia and then got a rude letter to the Editor in the following issue, which was some three months later, saying no it wasn’t there was one in Queensland which was the week before or something, or not too far before ours. I was wrong to say it was the first amalgamation, I should have said the first amalgamation in New South Wales and I would have been right.
When they amalgamated here was there any financial problems, or was it just thought to be a good thing?
TD: No by the time that the amalgamation took place, both credit unions were on to a sound financial footing. They were both making surpluses at that time, though they both had accumulated deficits they were on the road to a solid future given the proper guidance. When we amalgamated I don’t recall the exact figure of the deficit, but both credit unions had a deficit when they amalgamated and within three years we had that deficit reduced down to nothing and were making profits all the way.
Was deficit budgeting a regular thing at that stage?
TD: That was the accepted norm for credit unions. It was something the League tended to preach a little bit at the time. In sort of after thought, maybe it wasn’t the best thing to preach because a lot of credit unions got into trouble with deficit budgeting and bad debts.
I got the impression it was not because it was deficit budgeting, but because they weren’t budgeting?
TD: Well that is the other aspect of it. Budgeting per se didn’t come into vogue until the early 1970s, even though we had a couple of tries at it.
End Tape 1A: 4381 Words: 1 hour 25 minutes

RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO THOMAS (TOM) DEIGAN
Did you have Chapters down here in the Illawarra area?
TD: Yes we had the Southern Districts Credit Union Chapter which was functioning when I went on the Board of Collieries Employees’ Credit Union. It continued on until around about 1976 or 1977, because I was the one that finally wound it up.
Who initiated it do you know?
TD: I am not sure who started it. Obviously they were started under the auspices of the League of other day. I think the Founding Chairman was Neville Daniels, ably assisted by Ron Hamilton, both from the Illawarra County Council. When I became involved with it Ron Hamilton was the Chairman of it. Jeanette Newtham was the Secretary and Neville Daniels was the League Director for the Southern Area of the day.
Did you run any Schools?
TD: We had a number of Schools spread over the years, and a number of smaller type seminars. The only really big thing we were involved with was the AFCUL Convention in 1972 where I was on the Organising Committee of that.
Incidentally, when you were on that Organising Committee were you present at the confrontation between Stan Arneil and Dermot Ryan?
TD: No I heard sort of in the background that something was going on between them, but they were both very strong willed people and it wasn’t unusual in those days to see a couple of people with opposing points of view.
But Dermot refused to accept Stan, he wouldn’t let him in.
TD: That’s true, but the background of it at that time didn’t mean to much to me because I wasn’t aware of the politics behind the scenes of the movement.
Weren’t you at the League meeting the previous weekend?
TD: I can’t recall whether I was there or not, to be honest. I do remember it being a League meeting, they used to have Annual Meetings and Half-Yearly Meetings, and I suppose since 1970 I have attended just about all of them. I do remember the confrontations at a couple of Annual Meetings between the protagonists over the insurance issue. The actual things that were said, or the feelings that were around at the time are long lost in my memory.
Were you at the meeting where Stan Arneil walked out, with the ABC delegation?
TD: Yes I can recall that one. There was an Annual Meeting I think where the decision was made to discontinue the endorsement of CUNA-CUMIS Insurance. Then I don’t know whether it was the same meeting, or a following one, where delegates carried a resolution to allow Stan Arneil to talk to the meeting be it for three minutes or fifteen minutes, something like that, to put his case finally before the vote was taken whether to withdraw the endorsement from CUNA-CUMIS or not. I do remember those.
Well that was the meeting, the week before, when finally he was refused permission to speak any further, then they walked out.
TD: That could be the case. I don’t remember the details of it. As I said at those meetings there were 400 or 500 people, because of the number of credit unions that they had and the number of delegates. As I said, the undercurrents and the political activities behind the scenes at that point in my involvement were not very well known to me.
What was your view of the insurance controversy? Did you take sides, or did your credit union take sides at all?
TD: No, we stuck with what was the League line at the time. Since then we have changed insurance companies against the Association line in 1979, we went back to CUNA and CUMIS. In recent days, for the last two or three years, we have gone back to the Association recommended insurer, on the basis that we see insurance now as a service which you have to pay for and you go to the insurance market and you buy the insurance from the best tender.
So was there any other meeting that you can particularly remember at that time? Were you on the League Board at that time?
TD: I went on the League Board at the end of 1972, if my memory serves me correctly, and was there for four years.
So it was the end of that year that you went on?
TD: Yes, the end of 1972.
Ken Miller was the Chairman at that time? Or was he just coming off and was it Kevin Bain?
TD: I think Ken Miller was Chairman for one year, my memory is not clear on it, but Kevin Bain was the Chairman for all the time that I was on the Board. Bill Howe was being primed I suppose to take over from Kevin.
How well did you get to know Ken Miller and Kevin Bain?
TD: I knew Kevin Bain probably better than I knew Ken Miller. Ken Miller tended to sort of not be too involved with people unless he wanted something in particular off them, then he was a good friend. If he didn’t want anything off you well he tended to ignore you. That was the feeling I got and other people have said the same thing. With Kevin Bain was I suppose a little more of a father figure for me because he tended to take an interest in you. I was quite young when I went on the Board and I was almost the youngest Director on there I think, for four years anyway. So in a lot of ways I was quite politically naive.
So who put you forward to go on to the Board?
TD: Neville Daniels got me one day when he said that he was seeking to stand down from the Board and because we had Directors from the various parts of the State, we had a Northern Area, Southern Area, Western Area, plus the metropolitan Directors, Neville was the Director from the Southern Area and he said, “I would like to stand down, how would you like to take a run at it?” I thought about it for a while and I said, “Well I am interested.” I was very interested at the time, I didn’t know what I was getting myself into. So I agreed and at that time, because of the nomination procedures, I had missed the nomination day by about two weeks so at that time you could nominate off the floor of the Annual Meeting. So it was arranged that he would nominate me off the floor of the Annual Meeting and someone would second me and if there were no other nominations, then I would be automatically elected. But as it was there was a fellow from Cooma stood also, someone nominated him and he was duly seconded, so there was a ballot arranged. Even at the time I started to get suspicious because people were standing up on the floor saying, “How do you spell Deigan, will you spell it again please Mr Chairman,” and were completely ignoring the other fellow’s name. So he wasn’t getting a fair go of it. Afterwards wondered why they had to get up and ask how to spell my name, there must have been a reason for it. Of course it twigged after a while that the more times you get up at the meeting and ask how to spell the name and that sort of thing, that puts that name in people’s minds so that when they vote, you get the vote. As I said I was politically naive at the time. I was always wary after that as to the political motives behind every action. I still got caught on many occasions because there would be decisions taken after discussions about a particular subject and the outcome, or the outcome that would presented to the membership in general would be entirely different from what was discussed at the League Board meeting, or at an Annual Meeting. Things change over a period of time and it is only two or three people who were really keen on that particular subject recall what was said, or intentions which expected to be carried out, so there was not always justice being done in a lot of cases.
Do you remember the argument that developed over Tom Kelly’s support of the Co-operative Bank?
TD: Not in any great detail. I know that Tom put forward the idea at a League Annual Meeting and was pushing for the Co-operative Bank. My own view of it was that it was a good idea and I still think the credit union should eventually finish up with a co-operative bank which works for all co-operatives, not just for credit unions. His idea was a good idea but at the time it wouldn’t have got off the ground. Even nowadays the credit union organisation has got to get a lot bigger I think before it can set up its own bank as a Co-operative Bank and get to a viable position among the competitors who are in the market at this particular time.
Were you on the Board when Tom Kelly lost his position of Vice-President?
TD: I don’t recall that time. I have an idea I went on the Board in 1972 the year Tom Kelly came off it. My memory is not clear on it. The only way I would find out would be to go back and look at the old Annual Reports, I have got copies of most things that went on at the time.
Well what about the closure of Quest?
TD: I was on the Board then when it was discontinued.
Well they happened at the same time?
TD: Well Quest was about the end of 1972, 1973 when it finally went out of existence, so maybe Tom Kelly retired, or resigned, round about the time I went on. I have no clear recollection of that particular dispute.
He didn’t resign.
TD: Well whatever happened, I don’t recall exactly the circumstances.
As far as that particular year when you came on to the Board, that was also a time when the Savings Protection Fund was much discussed. Were you involved in those discussions?
TD: Yes I was aware of it. I believe the Savings Protection Fund was in its formative years at that period of time and they were starting to see the problems coming out, the problems of bad debts or lack of budgeting, deficit budgeting as well. They were becoming to be very large concerns and during my period of time on the Board I saw the formation of the Savings Protection Fund and the eventual Committee that used to run it. During my period of time on the Board the regular reports coming through, four or five or six credit unions having difficulties and the remediation action that was taken and the change from the Savings Protection Fund operation into one in which the League had its own management team for just recovering and doing credit union recovery work. Also at that period of time, I think, we had the only credit union in New South Wales which was allowed to close down and lost money which was I think the Kurri Credit Union.
What about SDA that Stan Arneil was Manager of? Shop Distributive and Allied, which of course wasn’t in the League. Neither was Kurri I think.
TD: Kurri wasn’t in the League either. It was a small community credit union in the town of Kurri. It was well before the SDA. SDA was I think formed in the early 1970s and sort of never really worked well, whereas Kurri had been around for a while and it just failed and members lost most of their money but there wasn’t all that much to lose. It was one where the League decided not to keep on bailing out the lame ducks. If they weren’t in the League the loyalty must be first to League members. That was the decision that was taken. There are many instances where the League, after credit unions that were in difficulty and joined the League, bailed them out and got them on to sound footings again or arranged for them to be merged with other credit unions. That was the main reason for the formation of the credit union which now operates out of the Association building. I am just trying to think of the name of it.
It used to be Metropolitan, but of course that is down the road now.
TD: Well it again was one of these merger situations where I think three credit unions basically formed Metropolitan. But this was going back to the days of the Savings Protection Fund and the number of credit unions which were in difficulties.
Were you on the Common Board at all?
TD: No.
I think Barry Kelly was.
TD: Yes Barry was on the Common Board for quite a few years. As a matter of fact he was on the Common Board when ??? Credit Union, which is just to the north of us, had its problems and it was eventually merged with the Illawarra, it was a transfer of engagements in 1976.
Can you think of any other issues that were particularly to the fore when you were on the Board of the League?
TD: Well it was the League at the time. The insurance one was a big one, plus the Savings Protection Fund and the eventual writing of the Credit Union Act and the formation of the Savings Reserve Board which was mooted as early as the 1975, 1976 period, when the Savings Protection Fund and Committee were getting on top of the problem, starting to settle things down. I suppose the other one that does come to mind is that there was an attempt to form an Aboriginal credit union. Again I think this started off with AFCUL. The credit union went for about eighteen months to two years and eventually folded.
Were you involved at all with that?
TD: Not a direct involvement, only involvement from being a League Director. Again, one of the other things that also led to the workload of the Savings Protection Fund, there was a development drive on to form community credit unions in the early 1970s. It added to the problem of the Savings Protection Fund because those community credit unions which were developed in the early 1970s lasted about three years to four years and then became failures. That again added to the Savings Protection Fund problem because the way forward was seen to start off community credit unions, because that is the way you reached all members, in the State of New South Wales anyway, via the community.
What about the ones that were successful, based on Shires and Municipalities that then became community credit unions in addition?
TD: Well a lot of them went through a stage from being industrial credit unions to mutual credit unions and then into communities. Our own credit union, the Illawarra, is probably a prime example of that. We started off as an industrial credit union, then a mutual and then a community.
What is the difference between a mutual and a community credit union?
TD: Well generally the bond of association rule which limits your capacity to lend to members. Any one can be the member of a credit union, but under the current legislation you have to be a member and part of the prescribed bond to borrow from a credit union. For the industrial credit union the prescribed bond might be the work place, which employees are all of who form the credit union, and if you are not an employee of the work place then you can’t borrow from the credit union. So that is an industrial bond. A mutual bond might be an employee of a list of dozen work places and by that fact you can move from one work place to the next and to the next and still be eligible to borrow. The community one is where there is a defined geographic area in which you have to reside, or be employed in, or have your employer, in some cases if he wants to borrow, have his principal business within that described region. That is a community bond.
Well most of them nowadays have got all three?
TD: That is true in a lot of cases. But some credit unions still have industrial bonds, although in these days they are starting to be in the minority rather than fifteen years ago when they were in the majority.
Have you changed your bond here over a period of time? What exactly is your bond?
TD: It started off as three Municipalities, or one City Council area, which is Wollongong. The Shire of Shell Harbour and the Municipality of Kiama. Then it was extended several years ago to what we describe as a Regional Bond in which we use the Illawarra Region of New South Wales and there is a description of the Illawarra Region in ordinance surveys and maps for particular reporting purposes. We use that as our bond now. So anyone who lives in the Illawarra Region can be a borrowing member of the Illawarra Credit Union.
Do you have overlapping bonds with some of the other credit unions in Wollongong?
TD: Well by virtue of the fact that we are a community credit union, and those credit unions operate within our region, we overlap every credit union which operates within this particular area. There are other credit unions in the area which have the same, or similar parts of our bond which overlap again. A person in the Illawarra area probably has a choice of two or three or more credit unions if they really look into it that they can borrow off.
Now to finish off the Reserve Fund and Board. Were you involved at all with any of the lobbying, or were you involved in the Advisory Committee?
TD: No. Most of that was undertaken by the Executive of the League, or the employed officials such as the General Manager and so on. They did all the lobbying, they talked to all the politicians. Being in Wollongong made it a little bit harder if you wanted to be involved in that sort of a sphere because of the travelling time and having to get off work and so on. It made it a little bit difficult for me to be involved in that area, plus the fact that I was politically naive and I wouldn’t have volunteered for some of the tasks such as talking to politicians or senior public servants because it would be quite beyond me.
As far as the running of Board meetings, and particularly Annual General Meetings, do you remember a controversy that blew up when Dave Palmer, as the only member of the Supervisory Committee, criticised the running of meetings by the Board?
TD: No. I remember Dave Palmer. I was probably at the meeting where he levelled the criticism, but maybe it didn’t make that much impression on me. I didn’t feel that he was justified in those comments.
Were you at any of those meetings where Ken Miller used to have a parliamentarian, I believe it was Peter McMahon, on the table with Les Robinson and himself, the three of them on the table there?
TD: Yes I recall those. It was quite the norm that they had their parliamentarian there. They use a solicitor these days.
You thought that was quite normal?
TD: I had nothing to compare it to. As I said, I came into the credit union movement not knowing much about running meetings or involvement in any political or social organisations. When you go to the League meetings, as they were at the time, they were structured and obviously they had to be. People have told me since you could go to the New South Wales Labour Council Meetings, or any other meetings where there is a lot of people there and they are structured and they are formalised and if you are a minority group or individual wanting to have your say you might get up on the floor and have your say, but you won’t get your way.
I was at a Labor Party Annual Meeting, I don’t know why I wandered in, just the other week and you wouldn’t get the nod at all to speak unless you had arranged it before hand with the Agenda Committee.
TD: Well that is the formality of it. It wasn’t quite that structured in the League Annual Meetings. If a credit union had a motion before the meeting they were allowed the normal time to speak to it. But the League Board would have appointed speakers if it was not in favour of something that was being put forward. They would appoint speakers from the Board to oppose it, or propose it be deferred, or referred, or something like that.
When you were on the Board was there any caucusing before the meeting?
TD: Not in a way which could be deemed to be destructive. The Board reviewed the agenda for all Annual Meetings and Special General Meetings and had their view on them. A lot of the issues which were put forward were Board motions. The actual caucusing which took place was that generally the Board would have a view on something and they would talk to the credit union if they thought it was helpful and advise to modify the motion this way or that way. It may be heading in the wrong direction or the motion was not legal in the way it was being presented. There was reasonable fairness in the presentation of the motions. The caucusing side of it tended to be if a particular group of people wanted someone elected as a Director or on a Committee or something. Someone would say, “Well I have known this bloke for quite a few years and he is a fair sort of fellow and we would like to see him on this particular Committee,” or something like that, so that when it got to a vote that particular person quite often got on.
You knew Beresford Calverley during your period on the Board?
TD: Yes I knew Beresford quite well. I was involved with Beresford, I went with him to a couple of credit union Annual Meetings at the time. I can remember going to one in Wagga with Beresford and it was my first time as a League Director that I had gone to a credit union to be guest of honour or guest speaker, or represent the League at the Annual Meeting. Beresford was there as well and he had his say at the meeting and I had my say and it went off quite well. It was sort of good to have Beresford there, because he had a fair idea of the running of the League and had been one of the Foundation Directors of it, and I think the Foundation Chairman. He was also a Foundation Director of AFCUL, he was very close to its beginnings. So he was well-known around the credit unions and respected. It was good to go with Berry because he knew quite a lot of people around the place and helped me with the confidence building exercise that I needed.
It was sometimes said of him that he was a numbers man in the sense that he always wanted to be on the winning side.
TD: Well I don’t think that is anything to be held against him. Most people like to be on the winning side. I wouldn’t have thought that he went out of his way to marshal numbers. He had a lot of friends who supported him so he sort of didn’t have to.
I didn’t mean that. I meant if there was going to be a division.
TD: Well possibly, as I said it never occurred to me that he was that way inclined and that he always liked to be on the winning side.
End Tape 2A: 4052 Words: 1 hour 10 minutes

RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO THOMAS (TOM) DEIGAN
There was one thing I wanted to ask you about, you started to tell me about it earlier on, that is the meeting that you organised here for AFCUL. Were you much involved with Dermot Ryan in that?
TD: Well at the time Dermot was the Chief Executive Officer of AFCUL, but we had an Organising Committee of about six or seven local people who were involved with the organising of the venue and transport arrangements, all of the preparation of the documentation for it which would be handed to the various representatives and delegates when they arrived. The actual meeting proper was looked after by the AFCUL staff.
Who else was on the Organising Committee here, do you remember?
TD: Warren Hamilton, Roy Nicholson, Jeanette Newson, Graham Holby, Barry Kelly, a fellow called Bill Kent, who was from the Waterside Workers. Herb Bampton was from Huntley Colliery Credit Union. There was a Scotsman, I can’t recall his name, again from the Waterside Workers Credit Union, which had only been formed in about 1971 I think.
Were you a delegate at other AFCUL meetings?
TD: Only as part of the League’s total delegation to the various AFCUL Conventions that were held, and AFCUL Annual Meetings, which were held each year while I was on the League Board. I was never an actual delegate, I think I was an alternate at one stage for the one that was held in Tasmania.
Was that when you got the taxation concessions?
TD: Yes. That was announced at that convention by the Treasurer of the day who was Crean.
You were at that one. Was there anything else that happened at that you can remember?
TD: No. It was my second convention and it was all new to me. I was still very much on the learning curve. There seemed to be more of the backroom wheeling and dealing taking place at the AFCUL Conventions and Annual Meetings than there did at the League meetings and Board meetings. Quite often there would be a note go round to all the various League Directors, saying the New South Wales League was to meet in a particular room at 5 o’clock or 6 o’clock and one particular topic would be discussed. That was a direction for the delegates to proceed either during the meeting, that night or the next day or something and it was a regular thing. There was probably more discussion with the Board on some matters particularly at the AFCUL level.
Were you at the following year’s meeting in Canberra?
TD: Yes. I have been to a couple in Canberra.
Were you at the one which was Dermot’s farewell, and he made a speech?
TD: I must have been. I am just trying to think of the venues. There was one venue at the Lakeside Hotel, but I thought they had South Australia after the Tasmanian one and then went to Canberra. As I said I have attended all of them up until the last couple of years and I would have been there.
Did you ever go to one in Canberra where Dermot took along a set of Mazda car wheels?
TD: No I can’t recall him taking some car wheels. When he was Chief Executive Officer he tended to like to have a lot of awards and anyone who had made a fool of themselves during the year would get an award. I think it was like a big wooden dummy, the Dum Dum of the Year, or something like that. He would award that and take a great deal of pride and go to a lot of effort to make sure the recipient was well and truly embarrassed by it.
Who received it in your memory?
TD: I don’t recall. It was a sort of an aspect which didn’t appeal to me. I don’t like people’s sensitivities being attacked in that particular fashion. I don’t think that is the right way, for particularly a financial organisation, to be carrying on. Secondly, it is not the right way to treat people. That is probably one aspect of Dermot’s nature which I didn’t particularly like. Maybe it was a sort of covering up of his own lack of confidence or something like that, but it was an area which he tended to like. If he couldn’t attack something on the basis of a reasonable argument based on facts he would use personal vilification to try and win a point. I think that just flowed on with these Dum Dum Awards and the various awards he liked to hand out.
Did you ever hear about the Butcher of the Year Award. It was Sydney Credit Union which had that one, a sort of private thing within Sydney Credit Union. Did you ever go to any interstate Schools, or any Schools up in Sydney?
TD: I have attended a lot of League conferences or seminars. The only one that was sort of interstate was Canberra, that was probably 1972 or 1973.
What about the Newport Schools were you at any of those?
TD: No. I don’t know why I didn’t go to those, but they were in the early days.
Bit before you. What about Warburton in Victoria?
TD: No I didn’t go to one there either. Again I think it was their last year when I went on the Board, or something like that. 1973 might have been the last one. I remember people referring to them and saying I should have been there and I wasn’t, but I couldn’t help that.
Were you involved with the Foundation at all, the Australian Foundation?
TD: Only from the knowledge that it was formalised at the Convention that was held in Wollongong in 1972. It had been talked about and the Trust prepared prior to the Convention and I think it was formalised in 1972 in Wollongong.
What major subjects should we consider now, anything else? What was credit union’s relationship and your attitude to the Association of Southern Credit Unions and the various splits and cleavages that happened up and down New South Wales.
TD: Well when I became involved with them there were the two associations, that is the Southern Association and the League. In the early days it was them and us. As time progressed it tended to be more both of us, we did talk to one another we did attend each other’s meetings when we felt like it, so there was some representation from either side. There was the opportunity to talk to one another which wasn’t always available before. But there was always strong-willed personalities involved with both sides of the argument, that is the League and the Southern Association, which tended to prevent too much happening as far as an alignment of thoughts or working together for something which would be to the benefit of credit unions. It tended to be whether the individual, the stronger personalities, thought it was a good idea or not to proceed. Even at the time that the Southern Association eventually merged with the League to form the Association, there were a couple of the old die-hards who were dead against it and two or three credit unions locally didn’t go into the Association for some time.
What was your view of the various splits that happened when the League split and the next thing you had the great increase in the Southern Association Central Region and the Northern Region.
TD: Well we always maintained our loyalty to the League. I didn’t think it was a good idea that we should have so many smaller associations, but that is something you are powerless to stop. It doesn’t matter who you are really, if people decide to go off and do their own thing, that is what they will do. It usually takes a really good fright to sort of bring them back into line and find out that maybe they would have been better off staying with the majority of the people rather than going off on their own. That was particularly evident with the Central Association. They tried to duplicate services that the League, such as centralised banking, and couldn’t come within a bull’s roar of it because the League and the Association had the experience with it and had made all the contacts. They couldn’t offer anywhere near the service and that was a service that a lot of the credit unions wanted at the time. They tended also to have credit unions like Qantas, which a lot of people see as an investment organisation rather than a credit union. Their views and requirements were usually quite different to a smaller credit union which might have 400, or 500 or a 1,000 members. When they were dealing with their 6,000 and 7,000 members with their enormous savings, the requirements of that credit union are quite different to the smaller one where they are talking about small amounts of money and lending small amounts of money. There was a diversity of need more apparent, one which the Association probably can’t address today because of the amount of difference between the largest credit union and the smallest one.
As far as the subject of computerisation and accounting, you mentioned a few minutes ago when the tape wasn’t running you were involved with the selection of some equipment at one time.
TD: That was going back to my Collieries Employees’ Credit Union days. We had a Burroughs accounting machine at the time which was prone to breakdowns and at that time we thought we were lucky if we could finish the end of month run three weeks after the end of that month. The members were sought of used to that. If you could balance your books before the start of the following month you were going well. We were advised by the Association, or the League at the time, that we should consider getting another accounting machine and it was suggested that we look at a Somstrom. I don’t know why I remember the name, maybe just because it was different and I had never heard of one. I was appointed by the Board to go with another Director who knew something about accounting machines to meet with Peter Simmonds who was a service officer, or something of that nature with the League. We went to this place in Sydney and looked at one and the salesman was telling us all about it. I didn’t have any idea what he was talking about, how good the machine was. We finished up taking the advice of this Peter Simmonds to buy it. Once we got it in and working it was reasonably successful. We used that machine up until about 1976 after the Collieries Employees’ and Southern Mutual Credit Unions amalgamated by that time we were on computer.
The advent of electronic banking generally and ATMs and such like, what was your attitude to that both personally and as a credit union?
TD: My attitude to it is that it is something that the members want and we should try and provide it. But we must exercise care in the provision of it. The people who can use it best will be the ones who will gain the best advantage from it. Those who have difficulty controlling their money would find it a burden. We tended to move into these things on the basis that if a person has got a reasonable savings history and shown some ability in controlling their funds, well there is no problem in giving them a plastic card or something like that. Whereas someone who probably hasn’t got quite as good a control over their money we would be a bit reluctant to give them a card which was going to solve their problems, because we knew very well that it wouldn’t. So there was no carte blanche distribution of cards, there was selective distribution of plastic cards. We still do it in the same way now. In fact at the end of the current review period, which would be say the end of June 1990, our number of plastic cards out is lower than what it was in the previous year because of this culling which takes place.
Have you got any ATMs yourself?
TD: Yes. We have got a number of them. There would be five currently that the Illawarra Credit Union owns. We share one in Nowra with Shoalhaven City Employees’ Credit Union. From the time ATMs were started to be talked about we looked at the need for the use of ATMs and tried to work out the best way to make the service available to our members. One of the things we did, which deviated from the League line of the day where they were going with NCR ATMs, we bought Phillips ATMs, or Debold as they are called. We were buying those through Phillips and installing them as a proprietary ATM. After we had done that quite a few other credit unions applied the same line and it has added to the spread of ATMs among credit unions. In fact I think currently there is about a 50:50 balance between the number of ATMs which are proprietary ATMs and the ones that the ATM company owns.
Did you put your money up front when they were first introducing them?
TD: No. We went to all of the meetings where they were discussing the issues and at the meeting where you had to make a decision we said that our Board had decided not to proceed with it and left the meeting. From then on we did our own thing for a couple of years, by linking our own ATMs to our own computer. When the facility was available to link them throughout the State, that is when we went into the ATM company.
What about the switching system and the computerised network generally, did you go with FCS or on your own?
TD: Again it followed the ATM system. Once the ATM system was connected throughout the State through AFS and subsequently through FCS and so on, that is when we became part of the overall system. Until that time we were on our own, operating locally.
Right. Do you think that the various co-operative services that the Association offers and also such things as Edvest are a good thing? Do you think they should offer more co-operative services?
TD: The whole aspect of co-operation I think is one which should be supported wherever it possibly can be. I think that is one of the ways in which credit unions are going to survive in the future. That has got to be their little niche in the financial market. The co-operative aspect is the mechanics which will allow that niche to be developed and allow credit unions to survive. The areas where credit unions can co-operate should be developed more. There is probably a lack of co-operation among credit unions and our credit union has probably been involved in some of those areas of lack of co-operation, the same as many other credit unions. We have tended to say that we’ve sort of built up a credit union from its early days into now. I don’t know if we can claim to be the largest community credit union in New South Wales, because of changes in bond structures over the last few years, but I think we are one of the most successful community credit unions in New South Wales. In a lot of ways we have shown the way for other credit unions to survive and to be successful. It is only by careful thought and consideration of all aspects of it that I think we have been as successful as we have. A lot of the Reserve Board figures reflect the differences between community credit unions and industrial credit unions from the point of view of operating ratios. One of those which regularly is highlighted in our case is the amount of property we own compared with the asset structure. With most credit unions of a similar size it is around about 2 per cent to 3 per cent of the total asset, whereas ours is up around about 6 per cent. In the last two years it was as high as 9 per cent. It has always been something the Reserve Board has told us that we shouldn’t own as much property, we don’t need it, that money could be out earning interest for members and members would benefit and our surpluses would be higher, and so and so on. It is all true but our way of operating, going into a branch structure and having something like ten or eleven branches operating at the moment, I think has proved itself. Our percentage of property to total asset is gradually coming down because the credit union is still growing. Its growth rates over the last few years in the very difficult times had been better that the State’s average in a lot of areas, so we can sit back and say we did the right thing. It was the right move to make and we have proved it. The Reserve Board still highlights the fact that we have this amount of property but up until now we have been successful in arguing against any action they might want to take against us. They have accepted what we have put forward because we don’t do anything which affects the viability of the credit union.
One more thing just about, and that is it, you have put an awful lot of work into the credit union movement, did that ever have any affect on your family? Have you got any regrets in that direction?
TD: I think I have regrets that my wife probably missed out on a bit because of my involvement. She has always supported me in my credit union activities and wherever I could she would be attending with me. But when, at my age going into the credit union, you have a small family, or young children. So there was always a baby-sitting problem and always the difficulty that at that time of your life you are very interested in earning money rather than doing too many good things for the community and that aspect of life. So my wife always tended to be the one who was left at home, particularly when I was involved with the League if it meant being overnight somewhere, it might be going to Newcastle to a Chapter meeting or to attend an Annual Meeting in Lismore or somewhere like that. I regret that happening, but in later years I have tried to redress that balance somewhat. I haven’t been entirely successful because once I left the League I started building a yacht and now I go sailing. Whenever I can I go sailing.
Do you take her along?
TD: My wife came along for the first few years of the sailing, but said it wasn’t for her, she preferred to stay at home.
She is no longer a credit union widow, she is a sailing widow.
TD: Yes most likely. Probably be a better definition of it, she is a sailing widow.
Well you could have been divorced if you had been together too much, you never know.
TD: That is the other aspect of it, the parting has made the heart grow fonder and we have both benefited by it.
Do you think the credit union movement has gone wrong or do you think it is going in the right direction? Where should it go now?
TD: The areas which are coming to mind of late where there is too much concentration on services which AFCUL through ASC is providing. To my way of thinking there is an enormous amount of publicity on ADFs and retirement and so on. There is hardly a publication which you see which doesn’t have some reference to the current situation with ASC and what they are doing with their ADF system and the various retirement money grab which seems to be apparent. I think it is an important feature of the overall credit union picture, that that should be addressed, but I think there is too much emphasis on it at the moment.
Well is there anything that we haven’t covered that we should?
TD: I think that is about it.
Well thank you very much Mr Tom Deigan.
End Tape 2B: 3433 Words: 1 hour 10 minutes