12 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO GAVIN COOK
I will ask you Mr Cook where were you born and when?
GC: Born in Belgrave on 21 February 1939. Belgrave happens to be situated in the foothills of the Dandenong.
You grew up around there?
GC: I grew up at Narre Warren East, one of four children of a farmer at Narre Warren East.
What sort of influence did you get off your father do you think?
GC: Well my father had been through the Depression, had been part of a three-person partnership that went broke in the Depression. He was the one that stayed there and paid back all the debts. As a result was a very conservative man and taught me over my life time to be conservative and look after the dollars that you are able to get into your hand. One thing that comes back to mind that he always said to me, he was an elderly person when he first got married, he always said to me, “When you buy a home always buy it where you can walk to work. You will buy three places over your lifetime.” I think that was good advice from him.
Your mother, what do you think you got from her?
GC: Well mum was always a very considerate, soft person. Always the family came first and she worked hard on the farm. In fact she was the one with the background in farming. My father when he married her was not a farmer. So she cared for us very well and also put a lot into running the farm.
So when you went to school where was that?
GC: Went to school at Narre Warren East, which was called Muddy Creek State School. I think it had about twelve or thirteen pupils when I first started. I was educated through there until sixth grade and then moved on to Dandenong High School to do my secondary education.
What did you like, or dislike, about school can you remember?
GC: What I perhaps disliked was English and particularly spelling. Another thing the dentist’s van. In fact I was known to barricade myself with another person in the outdoor toilets when the dentist’s van arrived. When they eventually got us out and put us in the dentist’s van I think they took eight teeth out and immediately sent me home because I was so upset over it.
What did you do when you left school?
GC: I left school at Intermediate Certificate and took up the role of carpenter, or builder, working with two friends building homes and vermin-proof farm sheds. Then I was one day on the work site when the Apprenticeship Commission, or Board, approached me and said, “Unless you do an apprenticeship you cannot use a hammer or a saw.” So consideration was given to that. My father had to have a gall bladder operation so for a short time I went back on the farm until such time as he was capable of running the farm again. Then I looked for more permanent employment and I took up the role with the State Electricity Commission, SEC, in Consumer Accounts and spent fourteen and a half years there before the opportunity came up to move in as an employee in the credit union movement.
So when did you first hear about credit unions?
GC: In about 1968 when through St Mary’s Parish Church at Dandenong I was approached by one or two of the parishioners, because I was in a clerical job, if I would like to become involved in assisting as a volunteer in this financial co-operative they had set up within the church complex. I did offer to do that and found that my duties were for an hour of a Friday evening and, on a roster system, once a month of a Sunday helping out at the counter. As a result of that the then Treasurer of the credit union, who I became very friendly with, had indicated that the credit union would be looking in the very near future to employing a Manager because the credit union had grown to the stage where it needed a paid employee to look after the organisation. At that stage I had become a little bit disenchanted with the SEC in that whilst I had a good position and was in control of twenty-odd people, there was not really enough work to keep them busy. I had already become a Director of the little credit union at that stage but the Treasurer and the Accountant suggested that I take over the accounting role, that he would resign from that role and swap with me in the Director’s role and I would become the Accountant and Secretary to the society. So that is how I first became involved.
Did you go to any Chapters or credit union Schools of any description?
GC: Yes the Warburton Schools were very popular in the early stages, until unfortunately the Chalet was burnt down at Warburton in the end. But in the early stages they bring back great memories of many long hours, many discussions and arguments over where credit unions should be going. Very little sleep and back into the sessions next morning very bleary-eyed.
Did you have anything to do with the management of the School up there? Did you get involved in the newsletter, the Warburton Weekly or anything like that?
GC: Not really no. I wasn’t involved in any of those areas. I was virtually just a participant at that stage.
What about some of the characters in the movement?
GC: Well in the early stages Don Harris, who was the Chief Executive of the VCCA when Dandenong employed me as its first Manager, was the drive behind getting community credit unions to put on full-time staff and go into deficit budgeting. A far cry from the attitude of anybody within the movement these days.
Since you mention deficit budgeting, did you see any problems with that?
GC: Not providing there was a concrete plan in place on how eventually you were going to trade into a position where you were making surpluses so you could build the reserves necessary to keep the credit union going.
Don Harris, was he acting as Field Officer or was he Manager at that stage? Had Leon Magree gone?
GC: I think Leon Magree at that stage was from memory moving towards the New Guinea scene. He was in New Guinea. Leon has been a great influence also over the years that I have been involved. Leon’s one that is still involved in the credit union system and has a very deep heart and thought for what the co-operative system is about.
What about people like Graham Benson, did you come across him at this stage?
GC: Yes. Knew Graham from the very early stages. The memory that comes back to me of Graham is of a number of promises he made to at times give me information but I never ever seemed to get that information. However, I must admit that 1977 was probably the most exciting time of my life through Graham and through a study tour and going to Mexico City to the CUES Conference which gave me the opportunity to travel overseas, virtually to take a plane ride for the first time ever in my life. We were away for six or seven weeks. We travelled right around the world. Graham, with his knowledge and previous travelling experience, set up many opportunities both socially and to meet credit union people right throughout the world. That was a great experience and a lot of knowledge I was able to bring back as a result of that tour. It allowed me, at Dandenong Credit Union, to develop both the credit union and more particularly the benefit of being able to develop our own building and making sure we didn’t get some of the pitfalls that had happened with credit unions similar in size who had made decisions to have their own buildings. This was particularly so in the Canadian scene where they had built and then found the building wasn’t large enough to house the credit union and they really had to pay premium prices to expand the building because they hadn’t bought up sufficient land at the time. That is one thing Dandenong fortunately has, as a result of that experience, I believe made the right decisions with their building projects over the years.
You mentioned CUES there. How did you first become involved with that?
GC: Well that was through Graham Benson. There were a group of credit union Managers that met on a regular basis and Graham was of course Secretary of the World Council and had a great knowledge of overseas and talked us into, and explained the reasons why at that stage we should be members of CUES, which was the largest Manager education group as far as we were concerned at that stage in the world, their conferences were worth attending. The exposure, the smaller Australian movement was then able to get from the larger American movement.
Did you think anything of Lloyd Hawkins during your travel to CUES?
GC: Yes I saw Lloyd at CUES and many conferences both overseas and in Australia.
What about the McIntyres, Helen and John?
GC: Yes I have seen John and Helen McIntyre and have known them all the years as well.
What about the earlier people, people like Dermot Ryan did you come across him at Warburton?
GC: Yes I can remember the meeting where I first met Dermot because of the forthright comments that he made and I thought at first without much thought. But over the years the dedication and the commitment to co-operation by Dermot Ryan was just unbelievable. The words and the way he said them have always been close to my heart and always remembered.
Were you involved in AFCUL at all back in the days when Dermot was Executive Officer?
GC: No, not really. No, not at all.
Have you got any stories you can tell about Dermot and Warburton?
GC: No, not really.
Did you know Bob Clayton?
GC: Yes I knew Bob, not closely, but I knew Reverend Bob Clayton.
It is just that there was a famous story which involved Dermot and Bob Clayton.
GC: I am sorry I don’t know the story.
Well apparently Dermot and Maurie Daley were involved in a fight and he tried to break it up. The story goes on from there. Apparently Maurie Daley and Dermot often used to indulge a little bit.
GC: I wasn’t involved, or saw any of those.
Were you involved in the Chapters in the early days?
GC: Yes, I have always been involved in the South-Eastern Chapter, which is south-east of Melbourne which includes of course the Dandenong Credit Union and all the credit unions out there. Been very involved and still am involved from a Chapter point of view.
I didn’t know the South-Eastern Chapter was still in operation, is it?
GC: Yes.
When does it meet, and where?
GC: It meets on the third Thursday of February, May, August and November, of course the next one is Thursday of next week. It meets actually at Dandenong in a community centre and has met there for the past five or six years. Well represented. There are usually over forty at some of the functions of the ten or twelve representative credit unions, both directors, management people and staff people.
Have you ever taken an active role in the organisation of the Chapter there as Secretary or in Chapter development?
GC: I have been Chairman of the Chapter on a couple of occasions. Always have had a fair bit of input in insuring the Chapter rotates its Chairman and Office Bearers. That has been very successful. In fact, over the last five years or so as one of the longest serving credit union people in the area it has been my role to take over the Chair to elect the new Chairman and executive positions for the year.
Did you have any position with CUES or were you only a member?
GC: I was only a member.
With AICUM?
GC: No executive positions. Again I have been involved in AICUM conferences since the first conference. I think I have attended them all. Unfortunately this year is the first one I am missing because of being President of the Rotary Club of Dandenong and we have our major fund-raising function for the year on the Tuesday of the conference. That is the Mayoral Golf Day where we raise about $35,000.
I am sorry you are not going this year because the Historical Co-operative has been given space in the exhibition there. We are actually mounting a display this year. Trying to get more credit unions to get involved and save their history.
GC: Very good, I hope it is a great success for you.
I am down here this week and next week will be the big push to get it organised and set up. We have actually been donated the space by AICUM and we have also got a little bit of money off the New South Wales Association to set it up. Now as far as other projects. We had better go on to the VCCA. Were you on any committees before you were on the Board?
GC: Marketing committees and some legislative task forces, I have always had involvement in those but not in any official capacity.
Can you remember the proceedings of a Marketing Committee that you were involved with?
GC: Not really. The main committee from a marketing point of view was in 1980 when a number of community-based credit unions got together and formed their own company which was called CUMAD Services, which was to market community-based credit unions in a common format. I can recall at the time, and I wasn’t involved in the VCCA Board at that stage, the then Chairman, and Ian Larssen comes to mind, a Special Meeting was called of all Chairmen of those credit unions involved. They felt we were causing a split in the Association and we were setting up another group to try and split the Association. I can assure you over my years of involvement, in excess of twenty years in the credit union, I have always been a firm believer that there should be only one State association and a firm believer in the Project Renewal concept that they are now espousing, the development of one national organisation. So whilst at times it may have looked as if there were splinter groups being set up I can assure you it has never been a thought of mine. Truly, as far as I am concerned co-operation can only work by the economies of scale and everybody trying to work to a common cause, not trying to protect their own individualisms and their own sometimes singular views.
You mentioned a legislative working party there as well, can you remember about that?
GC: Well I was involved, and quite heatedly involved, when the Credit Act legislation was being debated in the Victorian Parliament here to where I had to face up in the Parliament House to Tom Roper. It has been said since that Tom Roper said to our local parliamentarian that he thought Gavin Cook was going to burst into tears if he continued to force the Credit Act upon credit unions. It didn’t do much good because we are now under the Credit Act and I could still burst into tears when I think of what it does to the people we are supposed to be helping or protecting, what it has done to make their life harder in being supported now by a credit union.
How do you work that out? Can you put that point?
GC: Well the point is there are many people out in our communities who need the assistance of credit unions both from the point of view of financial advice. Many times those people if they get financial assistance in the way of some small loans are also advantaged and quite often that is the turning point for them to come good in their understanding of handling their own finances. With the Credit Act and with the Regulation and the way we have got to report being so formalised now, it makes it more difficult to deal with some of those people.
Were you involved in credit counselling of people during your credit union career?
GC: Yes and we are still very involved. That has been the main area of the operation as far as I am concerned with Dandenong Credit Union, to endeavour to train people and educate people to be better financial managers of the pay-packet or the money that comes into their hands. Over the years we built the credit union on the basis of being recognised by larger and small organisations around Dandenong, some of them voluntary organisations, some of them government-funded organisations and other social workers, hospitals, psychiatric centres when the financial pressures of people were the cause of the ailments they were able to be referred to the credit union and the credit union’s financial counselling service could assist them greatly. There are two means of assisting, one is the planning and number two is being able, through the technology in the computer systems, to be able to monitor that planning through them putting their money through the credit union accounts. Unfortunately as time has gone on, financial counsellor associations have grown and they have taken a dim view of any organisation that lends money and therefore pressure from within the system has somewhat made us more wary and more conscious of the fact that the financial counselling type groups really don’t see credit unions as being able to offer that advice. Of course later on, in the last few years, the cost of doing transactions has made it very difficult and just the cost of operations has made it very difficult to continue to be too heavily involved in that area because it has to be subsidised by your better savers and your better net users of the credit union in savings and loans. There has to be some cross-subsidisation to help the less fortunate in our community and with the pressures on margins, the pressures on costs, it has made it unfortunately a little bit more difficult to put a lot of concentration into that area. I think it is a bad point and it is a disappointing point from my background philosophy and my wish and drive to really help people be better people.
Has there been any moves around in Victoria, as there have elsewhere, for an independent organisation, sometimes church- and sometimes charity-supported, to become independent counselling services and for referrals to go from credit unions to them?
GC: There has been. I think there is more and more of that now. If I take Dandenong’s view from a credit union operation point of view, our view now is to try and make sure that the savings and loans side of the credit union creates sufficient surplus to generate the necessary reserves for the credit union and then to use our auxiliary services, like the profit from the travel department and the profits from insurance departments, to set up a social conscience trust fund that then some of those organisations that are assisting at the lower level with financial counselling could make application to have an allocation from those trust funds to assist to develop the people who need the education and training to develop. To perhaps move the understanding and training session and then be able to come in as good supporting pay-as-you-go type credit union members.
I haven’t seen that. That is a very good initiative isn’t it. Your role on the VCCA, how did you come to stand for the Board in the first instance?
GC: Well to stand for the Board of the VCCA there was always a group of credit union Managers that had a fairly open line of communication. It was always my feeling that the credit union movement, to me had been good from a career point of view. I felt that one time in my employment I should offer my services to the State Association. In the early stages there was no hope of that because Dandenong Credit Union, coming from a deficit budgeting point of view and coming from being very heavily involved in the financial counselling area had to build pretty heavy provisions so therefore we weren’t building reserves. It was always my view that if your credit union was in a strong financial position it wasn’t in a position to be at State Association level and be virtually making decisions on behalf of the hundred-odd credit unions in Victoria. That situation arose in the mid-1980s that Dandenong was in the position and a proposal was put to my Board that I felt that at this stage the credit union could afford to contribute to the State Association. Hence I nominated and was successful in being elected.
The group of you that used to put the broader view, who were they? Were you opposed by another faction?
GC: Yes. That would be seen as so. The group were of course a common interest group which we believe were all community-based credit unions. I think it would be fair to say that we always believed that we had the harder job to do because we had no parent company subsidisation in any format. Every action we did we had to pay for virtually at commercial rates, whether it be rental of buildings, mailing our newsletters out, whether it be staff training, the whole works. If we had to have somebody to train staff we had to usually buy that on a professional basis whereas perhaps some of the what I would call industry-based credit unions would have access to training officers and expertise in their major organisations. I would believe the fact that they would have a very easy communication system because they had a notice board right throughout their organisation and probably at times had the internal mail system to distribute information out to their members, whereas all that in the community-field has to be done on a pay-as-you-go basis. I think it was always a firm belief that we had harder organisations to run, our cost structures were different, our ratios in that unfortunately would be very difficult to compare with credit unions of our same size running from an industrial base.
What about the industrial people? Who was on the community side and who was on the industrial side?
GC: Well I suppose as I would see it there were guys like Brian McMahon, who at that stage was General Manager of North-West Country Credit Union, in the early stages Graham Benson from La Trobe was in that group. Laurie Watt from Murray Credit Union. Lindsay Robertson from Waverley, Pat Riley from Burwood, Ray Jones from Geelong. Ballarat was Paul Tracey and later was Dennis. Brian Billop was down at Geelong at one stage as well. We were all fairly heavily involved.
End Tape 1A: 3905 Words: 1 hour 20 minutes
12 FEBRUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO GAVIN COOK
As far as the members of the Board were concerned when you were first on there, were there some issues that the community credit unions saw a bit different to the industrial ones and used to sort of line up on certain issues? What were those issues if you did?
GC: I can’t recall any major issues where the Board was split on issues. My experience over the years with the VCCA Board has always been a very fair Board. It has looked at things fairly. Most members of the Board have developed to look at things fairly from the point of view of what was best for the movement in Victoria. I have already mentioned that I think there are different cost structures and I was always conscious of how some of the decisions would affect these credit unions, particularly the smaller-base community credit unions. I know when we looked at Board level at marketing initiatives and things like that, it was the community-based credit unions who always seemed to be very keen to get into the marketing role, whereas quite often the industry-based credit unions, which probably had more funds available for marketing, were the ones that couldn’t see the benefit from it. I think that was brought about also by the fact that they had a very selective field from which to draw their membership, whereas again the community-based credit unions had to get people to walk in the door off the street. There has been over the years a lot of talk that community credit unions would be very successful if they got heavily involved in the pay-roll deduction area, but again in a community field to get into the pay-roll deduction area is a long drawn out process. I can recall in Dandenong the Dandenong and District Hospital there were eight years of negotiation went on before they would finally say, “Yes you can have a pay-roll deduction direct into the credit union.” At the same time, that facility was I believe also given to health services. Those issues at the time had to be thought through. I believe in my time on the Board most, or all, of the Directors were very keen to go forward and do the right thing by the credit unions within Victoria.
Were all the credit unions in Victoria which became community ones descended from parish credit unions, or did a number of them widen out into the community from an industrial base?
GC: As far as I can understand from my experience over the years, all the community-based credit unions did come from a parish or a community organisation and grew from a very small organisation. Sometimes, unfortunately I think, in the early stages seen as a welfare organisation and they paid dearly for that over the years of trying to get their quality of loan portfolio right and repayment structures. There has been a trend in the past few years of some community-based credit unions that have ended up with trading difficulties and have been merged in with industry-based. The major one of those as been Moe into the SEC and of course in the northern suburbs, the Werribee Western Credit Union went into Telecom and Northern Credit Union has gone into Telecom. Also Bentmore Credit Union, which operated in the southern suburbs of Melbourne have been taken up by Piccol.
I see there is quite a considerable difference amongst the original basis and what is now the basis of the different credit unions. You came from a Catholic parish credit union originally, your credit union. Are there any Anglican parish credit unions in Victoria that you know of?
GC: Not that I could highlight out at the moment. I would suspect there would be some, but that may be small. There are still a number of very small parish-type credit unions but I am not really aware of the overall background of them.
Did you have in your early days any contact with the Australian Antigonish Association?
GC: No I haven’t. I know of it but no I haven’t had any involvement with them.
I am trying to get a line on who was involved in it in Victoria. There were a couple of priests who were involved in it in Victoria as opposed to Father Gallagher in New South Wales. There were a few credit unions in Queensland that were completely separate that got their influence directly from Antigonish in Nova Scotia, not from Father Gallagher in Sydney.
GC: I wasn’t aware of that. I knew of the Movement of course in Canada, but I wasn’t aware that there was any involvement in Australia.
The first credit union in Queensland was an Anglican church one and the involvement there was because one of their church members was a blacksmith and he was in touch with Douglas credit people in Canada, who passed on the credit union business to him. That credit union is still going from 1945 to the present day. They don’t pay or charge interest. The savings of the members’ is invested and that comes back to the credit union and supports the credit union. They don’t pay the interest to their members. They initially built their church with that money, it was a savings scheme in fact.
GC: Well mentioning that, we at Dandenong Credit Union in July of 1991 implemented what we called a co-operative bond concept because of the cost pressures and margins to assist in the development of credit unions because so many funds were being channelled out into Reserve Board funds, into share funds for being a member of the State Association and the National Association. We put to our members the concept of putting in a $200 interest-free savings bond and from that pool it would allow us to offset the costs and that has been very successful.
Whose idea was that?
GC: It was an idea developed internally by the operation of Dandenong Credit Union. I won’t take all the credit for it, but most of it came from my mind after we’d looked about at least ten other options.
Are you familiar with Macauley Credit Union here? In what way is that different, do you know?
GC: Yes. Well I think Macauley Credit Union, from my observations, is operating in an area where there is a lot of low income, a lot of people needing support on fixed incomes and needing assistance with housing and rental housing. We followed that line for quite some time, but I think because of the growth of Dandenong we had to also look at being a little bit more cost conscious of what it was costing us to do that type of work. I compliment Macauley because obviously they have been able to keep their operating costs down. I haven’t looked at it to the point of view of seeing how much volunteer input they have got and how much support they get from the community, but I would suggest that the way they operate they would be getting great support from the community.
Now computerisation through your credit union, how have you handled this and how have you seen the State operation as it has gone on through the years?
GC: Well we have always taken the view that technology is a means of assisting to better service the members. We have always been at the forefront in providing technology to assist the operation. We have our own system in-house. We do process for Burwood Credit Union as well as Dandenong Credit Union. We have in the past processed for Safeway Credit Union, which is now Safeway-Woolworths, and also Lysaghts. So we have always taken a view of having pretty close to the latest technology and keeping at the forefront of that, again to assist us with the enormous amount of transactions we seem to encounter because of having probably at times in the Dandenong area, the community area, people who have a high transaction rate on their account but net savings is not at a high level.
Were you involved in Teledata at all?
GC: No not really directly involved in Teledata at all.
So what credit union software did you use in the first instance?
GC: Well when I made that statement, not involved in the actual operation of Teledata but we had a Teledata system to start with and we have always followed through using the system that has been the system supported and recommended by the State Association.
So you used Teledata but didn’t have any money in it?
GC: That is correct. Again one would say because perhaps we didn’t have money in some of the things, and Jubilee Lakes is another thing that we weren’t supporters of. I think the whole thing comes down to the fact that as a credit union we have never had the spare money to put into things. It is not that we haven’t been prepared to support it is just the fact that we have always had to be very careful with where we put our money.
Did you get into the CUE Card?
GC: No, haven’t been in the CUE Card either. We are in Redicard, but haven’t been in the CUE Card.
It looks as if you have been in all the right things and not in all the wrong things, or in the right way. Were you one of the early ones that had a few problems with the Redicard?
GC: No. We again chose to go with our own State Bank card in the early stages. We did very early in the stage have an actual Rediteller in the Dandenong Office supplied by the SEC Credit Union. We had a few members with Redicards, but because of difficulties in having the machine operating regularly enough we found from an operational point of view that we had more SEC Credit Union members and log trucks parked in our car park and around our streets so we couldn’t get our members into our own office. So we did some financial work on the State Bank Card that was offered to us, which we called the Multi Access Card. We found in the early stages, because we just couldn’t afford to go on-line with the size of the credit union, there were more cost-benefits in going that way. We made the decision that we would go that way for two years and then review the situation, which we did and now we have changed over to the Redicard system.
Sounds as if you have done it all right in that. Now when you were on the Board were you on any other committees that we haven’t mentioned?
GC: Not really. No, I haven’t really been heavily involved in the committee structure, other than the Executive Committee.
So how did you come to stand against Richard Crosbie for Chairman?
GC: I think again, we were going through the stages of looking as if it was necessary for the restructure of the movement. The costs of running State Associations and the National Association seemed to be getting too much of a burden for credit unions. The growth of credit unions seemed to be starting to taper off. My belief is that was some conflict between getting some of those things resolved, where you had the same person as Chairman of the national scene and the State scene. I think generally the Directors felt there was a need to split that role for a time. I believe the splitting of that role allowed a more positive view to be taken by the Victorian State when we attended the National Planning Meeting at Coogee in New South Wales where really the start of what became Project Renewal was beginning. It was always my drive and fellow Directors’ drive that we should have a look at a restructure of the credit union system. At the same time as myself becoming Chairman in Victoria there was also a change in the General Manager of Victoria. I feel that the drive of the then General Manager, Bill Meares, with my support as Chairman allowed Victoria to push very heavily into the Project Renewal concept, to get the funds together and to make sure the assessment of the whole national scene was done. We fully supported that and we as a Victorian movement still fully support it and the hope would be that the AFIC legislation comes into place and the whole thing comes together. I suppose you might ask the question, “Richard is back now as Chairman of both.” Well I think that is part of the exercise, the reason these interviews are being done, that the Victorian State Association as we know it will taper down into the national scene hopefully in the very near future and then Richard is Chairman of the National Association so he is Chairman of the whole works.
Was there any animosity between you and he, when you challenged him?
GC: I don’t believe so. From my recollection I think it was said that I had said personally to Richard that I believed it was time to have a change at this stage because of the reasons I have mentioned. I am personally not a nasty type of person.
He didn’t fight did he, he stood down?
GC: Yes. I think it was an amicable agreement as far as I see it.
That is his point of view as well.
GC: As far as I see it.
It has been commented by other people that it gave him a bit of a shock.
GC: Well I am not aware of that. I didn’t know what I was in for, I can assure you. It was pleasing, I suppose, to think the Board at the time supported you and put you there, but it was hard work. It played havoc with me over two years. It is a big job, if you do it right, and we were going through all the investigations and that of Project Renewal, so it was a massive restructuring thing we were going through over those two years. I don’t believe that we would have been as far advanced down the track as quick as we did if it wasn’t for the great support of the VCCA staff, particularly the General Manager at the time Bill Meares.
When David Dinning left he has commented that he felt that he didn’t get the greatest support towards the end of his time as General Manager. He felt that he didn’t get the greatest support from Richard Crosbie towards the end of his time as General Manager. Have you got anything to comment on that or were you not around?
GC: Well I was around. There are two sides to each of those stories and I think unfortunately when you are going through the traumatic thing as a Board of feeling that there should be a change that sometimes support levels, simply because of the confusion, do falter. David might be quite right in making that assessment.
Did you have any criticism of him?
GC: Well I do believe there was definitely a necessity for change. David was to me a great guy, a great personality, very friendly, really wouldn’t upset anybody, but I believe the change was made because we needed to change perhaps from that to an administrative person with a strong methodology of achieving results and change. That is exactly what, I believe, Bill Meares did. Then of course after that there was a need for another change, which Rob Nichols has come in and filled up greatly.
Bill Meares was on the Board as well.
GC: He was on the Board for a very short period prior to taking up the role of Chief Executive Officer here.
Whose idea was it that he become Chief Executive?
GC: He applied. The position was advertised. PA Consultants I think we used. The position was advertised. There were a number of applications from around Australia, I believe. Then the VCCA Executive, which included Phil Dowdy, Richard Crosbie and myself, made the final out of those applicants and on the recommendations of PA that Bill Meares was the person to come in and take that role at that particular time.
What were his strengths that David Dinning didn’t have, with hindsight?
GC: I think in a very more direct approach to the management of people and the planning process of detail and making things happen.
What do you think that David Dinning had that Bill Meares might not have had?
GC: Gee you are making it difficult now.
I am asking you for the strengths and weaknesses of each person.
GC: I think the main thing was that David was a softer type of person, a negotiating type of person whereas Bill Meares was a make it happen person. Document it, make it happen and make the changes. I think that was the difference in the two people at the time. Unfortunately at an Association level I think at times there needs to be change, but not change for the sake of change, change because the organisation was going through a phase of needing change to meet the challenges of the future. Those changes have taken place, I believe and I am firm in this, for the betterment of our State operations into the future and as being able to carry it forward quicker into the national scene which is what the goal is. I believe the national scene is about now giving the services that are necessary back to the individual credit unions to be able to produce the cost-benefits at the front line for their members into the future and to be able to remain as sovereign entities. Providing their reserve levels and their prudential operations are in place there shouldn’t be any drive to merge credit unions up into bigger units. I firmly believe in my mind if that is the way we move we will lose a lot of the philosophy and what we are about as co-operatives in the early stages. There is a tendency in Australian society, unfortunately, the bigger you are the better you are. I don’t believe that always brings about economies of scale and better services to the people out in the street.
Now you have been involved in an awful lot of public endeavours in all sorts of ways, particularly in your local community. Also of course with the VCCA and Project Renewal and everything. Any regrets? Has it hurt your family life putting in all this work?
GC: No. I suppose I am motivated by doing things. I wouldn’t go as far as to be boasting to say at times I would be seen as Mr Dandenong. That was recognised in 1990 by being appointed the Citizen of Dandenong for 1990, which was a great surprise and a great honour. I have had approaches to be involved in Council. I have had approaches to be involved in government things. But I believe I can do more by just being by behind the scenes and influencing other people. I have a family of seven children, so I hope I have been able to influence them. I have a very supportive wife and a wife that loves the home life, so that has allowed me the access to do the things I have wanted to. I have had three or four trips overseas. No way will my wife even travel out the front gate if she thinks she is going overseas she just doesn’t want to travel. Again, in the family environment, I have always taken the view as I do with my staff that all you can teach them is what is right and wrong and hope to hell that when they are in a compromising situation they will accept what they were taught is right. That is what life is about. The credit union system, I just enjoy people. Credit unions are people. There are people of all walks of life. I have put down a comment somewhere on paper, that I felt my biggest lack in the system is that I cannot jump to my feet and express myself and convince people that they are going the wrong way. Because of that a lot of things I believe perhaps moved a bit off over the years and have taken a while to bring back into line. I do confidently now believe everything is moving down the right line and providing the drive is to provide services back to the individual sovereign credit unions from the national scene and allow those credit unions flexibility in making their own decisions, number one if they use some of those ideas, number two that they can remain autonomous in servicing their own common bond base of people and do it right and do it better than any other organisation, then we will succeed into the future. I am confident that we will.
Is there any particular thing, out of all your community work and out of all your credit union work, that you are particularly proud of?
GC: Well I would have to be proud that I had the opportunity of servicing the State Association as Chairman. That to me is a milestone coming from a family background of farming and not a high education level to have ended up Chairman of the State Association. To have seen the credit union go forward, both the movement in Victoria and particularly Dandenong Credit Union, to be what I believe is the largest metropolitan-based, community-based credit union at this stage. Hopefully we can continue on to grow and serve the growing communities that we service at the moment. The honour of being Citizen of the Year at Dandenong was a great honour. The honour of having a very supportive family and now grandchildren is great. To be able to be at a stage of life where I can enjoy my hobby, which is eventually at retirement being able to get set up on the land. I love beef cattle and developing projects on the land.
Well we are coming to the end of this tape. Is there anything else we haven’t covered? We haven’t mentioned all your community involvements, but they are on the record here. So I will say thank you very much Mr Gavin Cook.
GC: Thank you Richard, very enjoyable.
End Tape 1B: 3765 Words: 1 hour 15 minutes