11 FEBRUARY 1991: ANSWCU98: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO WAL GILLARD
I will ask you Mr Gillard where were you born and when?
WG: I was born in Kurri Kurri on 22 August 1945.
Did you grow up around there?
WG: Yes I did. Always in the coal fields area. I moved away when I left school, but I have since married obviously, and come back to that area.
Your parents come from that area?
WG: Yes, both born and bred in that area, the coal fields.
Was your father in the coal fields at all? What did he do for a living?
WG: My father worked for the local co-operative, which was the Co-operative Store, prior to being involved in World War Two. My mother’s parents were farmers in that area. On both sides, on the grandparents sides and the other relations they were all in the coal mines. My grandfather actually lost a leg in one of the coal mines in the very early days, and that was pre-compensation, etc. So he lived a very hard life.
Before 1926. What sort of influence do you think you got from your father?
WG: Whilst both my parents are dead now, dad had a pretty large impact on the way that I live my live. His philosophy was that whatever his parents had given to him, he had to give the equal to or better to his children. I have tried to do that with my family as well. That is the one thing that I remember about him anyway.
Well you have stuck with co-operatives as far as your work is concerned now, do you think he gave you urge to be involved in the co-operative movement?
WG: No I am not sure that that came from the parents side of it, as far as my involvement is concerned. As I said I moved away from the coal fields when I first left school, went into the bank. Did two years in national service and then eventually gravitated back to the area in the industrial scene in Newcastle and Kurri. This job came up some ten years ago. I had actually only just joined the credit union so really my involvement started then, about ten years ago.
What influence do you think you got from your mother then?
WG: Well mum was always a very serious sort of a person and she did a lot of things in the community. She was always a member of the P & C and those types of things that I can remember. She was always willing to help people. I think this was one of the attractions that I got when I started to look at the credit union as a place of employment.
Was your father involved in the union movement at all? You mentioned Jimmy Culliford a little while ago?
WG: No, I think dad would be best described as probably being anti-unions. When he came back from the War he went back to the Co-operative Store for a while and then took a job with the Department of Corrective Services, as we know it today. He worked in Maitland Gaol and was there until he retired. In that era the unions were very active on the coal fields and the coal fields were very strong then, they have closed a lot of the mines down since then. But dad was on one side of the fence, if you like, not because of his employment because it was a regular job and they didn’t go on strike. Whilst he had a lot of mates in the mines, he never really had a lot of time for unions as such. It is quite funny you mentioned Jimmy Culliford, I think mum used to do some things for Jimmy such as hiding books which dad used to rouse upon. So it was quite humerous, from what I can remember.
Where did you go to school and when?
WG: Well I was born in 1945 so I obviously started school about 1950. I always went to school in the coal fields, so it was Weston Primary School. Then I went to Kurri Kurri High School. So I was a local boy always on the local scene up there.
What subjects did you like or dislike?
WG: I guess we are going back a few years now, but economics and geography were subjects that I did particularly like. I was never keen on maths and English was not my forte. A lot of it is self-taught now. But I suppose economics and geography, yes.
What about sport?
WG: Played most sports, as most of the kids do, or did in the area I came from. So whatever was in season we played, cricket, rugby league, soccer. I suppose soccer was the main game that I played as a winter sport. Had some success with representative things there from the coal fields. Soccer was always very strong up there. I suppose when I got a little bit older I did play some rugby league, but not a great deal.
What was the main recreation for you as a kid? What did you like best when you were young?
WG: Well there wasn’t a lot to do. I suppose that is the kids’ catch-cry now, there’s nothing for kids to do. Really it was country town. It is a lot closer to Newcastle as far as convenience for travelling now than what it was, Newcastle used to be an hour and a half trip away, it is now only about thirty-five minutes in a motor vehicle. So a lot of things you did yourself. We used to do things locally and it was team events, there was always fishing in the local creek and that sort of thing, but mainly it was team events.
What was the first job that you had? Did you have a part-time job when you were a kid?
WG: No. As I said, my grandparents on my mother’s side, well my grandfather had died some time ago, my grandmother always had a poultry farm at the back of Kurri. I suppose I had a part-time job because I used to go out there and work holidays and those sorts of things when I grew up. She worked until she was about seventy-three, seventy-four actively on this poultry farm. The family who lived around there always used to go out and give her a hand to do things.
What was your first full-time job then?
WG: Well I worked in the bank and at that stage it was the Commercial Banking Company of Sydney, which is now the National Bank.
They had good architects didn’t they?
WG: Yes when you go round the country areas of New South Wales a lot of them are still there, and they are still there as the CBC Bank. They did have some very good architects. Some of the memories that brings back, of the old buildings. They weren’t the best to work in at the time I was working there, they had gone backwards a bit, but they are a really magnificent bank, yes.
A lot of them are the same aren’t they?
WG: Yes.
I was wondering if got they paid by the dozen.
WG: Yes, I guess they must have. Because when you move around the country a lot of them are very similar, that’s right.
So the next job after the bank? What made you go to the bank in the first place as a job, and what made you leave it?
WG: The reason that I went to the bank quite frankly was that there wasn’t a lot of scope on the coal fields for a young fellow. There were different things you could do, but I wasn’t inclined to be a tradesman. I do have two brothers who are both tradesmen, well qualified, but that wasn’t the way I wanted to go. I joined the bank and it was basically a chance to get away from the area. The first job that I had was in the bank at Gosford. That did allow me to move away from the coal fields area.
You did your national service in what?
WG: Well I worked in the bank for about four years, I think it was. Then I was called up to do two years national service. Of all things I ended up being a cook in the army, I got to the rank of a sergeant in the two years. I was in a bit of a quandry then as to whether I would leave the army and go back into the banking area. It didn’t take me long once I got out of the army, after the two years, to realise that the regimentation of the banks was not for me. In fact, you spoke about some old buildings in the bank, my first positing when I came out of the army was back in Maitland which does have a very, very old building. Quite a nice building, an old three story building at Maitland and the counters were very high, I always remember that. They were sort of chest high, very old-fashioned wooden-type counter so you could virtually be naked from the waist down and the customers wouldn’t see what you had on. But this particular old Bank Manager, he was a bit of an old fuddy-duddy and he told me after I was there for a couple of months that he didn’t allow his staff to wear desert boots in his branch. That prompted me there and then that I wasn’t going to cop that, so I found another job in industry in Newcastle in an office and I then left the bank and started down the path of what I am doing now, I guess.
I notice that you seldom wear a tie? I spotted this. In photographs I have seen of you, you seldom where a tie. Where did you develop the aversion, which incidentally I share, for ties?
WG: Well I suppose I could say it was the bank, but that is not quite the truth. By the time that I had worked through the various industries and became a Plant Accountant at one of the factories where the credit union had a pay-roll group, and then got the job in the credit union, I started right at the top if you like as the Manager, so I didn’t have much training there. I will never forget the first couple of months, we had old premises in Cessnock and I made the effort and I wore a tie and I looked the part I suppose. But what I was finding with the coal miners, and a lot of them I knew even though I had been away from the area I had actually kept contacts, you could see them when they came into the banking chambers, it was a old bank that the credit union had at the time, when they came into the office they would sort of turn around and say, ‘Who is that dick-head with the tie on? Is he an Inspector of something?’ So I found out if I took the tie off and went up to the counter and said, ‘G’day mate,’ we would soon develop a good rapport. I have maintained that image all the way through I suppose, for the ten years. But it does work very well for me in the job that I have that I can go on to coal field sites and I can say, ‘G’day mate,’ they do know who I am, even though it is reduced now to fifty or sixty per cent of our business. The miners don’t respect ties too much, I suppose, and I am in favour of it.
Me too. However this credit union job is one of the first ones where I have occasionally to wear a tie.
WG: Wear a tie? Well I suppose I might be the odd-man out. But Australia is a hot country when all is said and done.
I was wondering, and I didn’t ask you, did you go overseas at all on your national service?
WG: No. It was one of those things. The ballot was there in place, I had a few mates who went overseas and there was one in particular that was killed. No, my number never came out so I didn’t get to go.
How did you go in the army? Did you like it or not?
WG: Yes I think it was great. I must admit when I left home at seventeen it was something that made me grow up fairly quickly. The regimentation didn’t really worry me that much because I found that by and large everybody was fairly fair in what they wanted to do. If you go in and did your job, I think that is one of the things I started to realise, if you got in and did the work that was allotted to you then nobody seemed to worry too much about you. So as long as you did a good job, everything was OK.
So when did you first hear about the credit unions?
WG: Well the first credit union that I heard about and I did have money in it, not a lot of money because by that stage we were living back in the coal fields’ area, was the Kurri Community Credit Union which failed. I think the wife and I had $50 in it at that stage. So credit unions obviously we were wary of them. But as I said a while ago, the place that I was working for I was actually the Pay Master, then I moved up to the Plant Accountant, and I got an approach from the credit union to start a pay-roll group there.
Which Plant was that?
WG: It was originally Machinery Overhauls which was owned by the Johnsons. If anybody knows anything about the history of the coal mines the Johnsons are a family who have come through and were probably the last of the privateers as far as the coal operations were concerned. There is a history involved in that as well. They sold that Plant to Joy Manufacturing, who are a multi-national worldwide company that makes underground mining equipment. So it was actually working for Gee that this involvement started, if you like as far as contact with the credit union, yes.
When you were asked if you would start a pay-roll branch you did that?
WG: Yes. In fact I could see the sense of it. Having worked in the bank and again because it was a local area, I knew that most of the fellows who were working for us really were about my age group so they were all looking to borrow money. I knew that none of them were terribly good savers. A that stage I used to drink a bit as well, so on a Friday afternoon in the pub used to be a bit of a session. But having known most of them it was a way I thought that we could encourage them to do the right thing and may be start some savings. A lot of those fellows are still members of the credit union to this day.
As far as the Kurri Credit Union, did you know anything about the failure of that? Were you involved enough to know?
WG: No. I guess I have picked up more now since I have been actually involved in the movement. At the time it was just something that failed in the area. It was a sign of the times as far as co-operatives were concerned, because we had had the Store failures. When I grew up we had in my area actually the Kurri Co-operative Store, which had branches right across the coal field in that area, Cessnock Co-operative Store and of course Newcastle was their major co-operative in that area as well. Whilst it had folded or closed down, it hadn’t failed as the credit union did and nobody lost money out of it. I think they were given so many cents back in their dollars for their investments and then the lot of it did come back when the premises were sold. But I guess it was just another sign of the times of how co-operatives were failing. By and large it did hurt a lot of people on the coal fields I think when the Kurri Community Credit Union failed but they were nearly all small investors, there was nothing large in it from what I can gather. Of course it did taint the world of credit unions for some time.
What about the co-operatives generally in Newcastle? They had been the main area in Australia where co-operatives had been a success for a time, then they failed. Do you know why they failed? Have you any ideas why they failed?
WG: Well it is only my own personal observations, but at the time when they were succeeding and they were really successful, they were virtually everywhere. ‘From the womb to the tomb’ I think because they ran medical benefit funds as well as funeral funds. In fact they owned the Funeral Directors in a couple of the towns. So they looked after the people from go to whoa. There was obviously the benefit of being able to pay your bill once a fortnight when they sent the bill out, so obviously you could have things on tick. If you were a member of the store you were allowed to do that. I think during the times of depression and coal strikes they obviously did keep a lot of the families afloat as far as vegetables were concerned, or the whole food matter was concerned. So that was the reason I think they were very successful. People were inclined to support co-operatives. My own feeling as to why they failed was that they didn’t move with the times. That was the one thing that seems to come out. Of course to be a Manager of the Co-op Store, because you had to join when you were a kid leaving school, it was promotion by seniority rather than ability. That seems to stand out from all the checkings and stuff that I have done for them, which is unfortunate.
I lived in Nottingham in England for a while and the Co-op there is very successful. In fact they are still I think the biggest and most popular store in the centre of Nottingham. Of course they have branches all around as well. They are very well supported.
WG: One of the things you have to realise, you mentioned that Newcastle was an area where they were successful, in the Newcastle region in particular there were a lot of English miners. One of the things that I found when I moved around with the bank and moved around the countryside in the bank, there were a lot of people who knew about the co-operative movement and they could all tell you different stories. It was only then that I found out that when you have got places like Caledonian Collieries and Stamford Myrtle, if you were a Geordie you worked at Headland, if you came from Wales you worked at the Stamford Myrtle pits and so on and so forth. In other words the Dave Jones, or whatever his name is, was a Welsh Manager and he employed all Welsh people. So the nobs of knowledge and the various things that we knew as a kid around the areas where the oldies used to congregate underneath the peppercorn trees, etc., it very much was, I think, something they had imported from England, you know as a basic stock of people. They had seen the ways and means to get people to move into the countryside. The co-operative movement was probably brought from England for that reason.
You mentioned that you knew Jimmy Culliford because you lived near him, but are there any of the other miners’ leaders you knew? I know there was Bill Parkinson, did you ever meet him?
WG: The name sort of rings a bell, but it is not somebody who I am familiar with. People such as Bill Chapman and Evan Phillips, who are probably leaders in the industry. Chapman has been retired for about ten years now, I guess, so you are looking at during the 1970s and 1980s I suppose. More lately you’ve got Jimmy Hayes from Cessnock, who followed on from Billy Chapman. It is more the modern era of people that I would know rather than the olden-time people. The same with Jimmy Culliford because obviously mum and dad living just up the street I have known him for some time.
What about the Neeleys?
WG: Yes, in fact my wife was very friendly with girl Neeley, which is Stan Neeley’s sister, old George’s daughter. We see Mrs Neeley and Stan from time to time at the different functions that we might go to. They have always been very nice people. The old fellow himself was a bit of a rascal, if you like. You will always remember the photo of old George sitting in the gutter outside of Parliament House, he had been evicted from the House. But he used to like a drink and I think that he used to get up to all sorts of terrible things. Old Mrs Neeley is a lovely person, she really is.
Of course there were two George Neeleys, one after the other.
WG: That is correct, yes. That used to be a thing on the coal fields. You had the Neeleys and the Booths. Ken Booth was preceded by his father at Kurri. The Neeleys were from Cessnock, yes.
Now when you set up the pay-roll branch at Joy Manufacturing, you stayed there for a while?
WG: I guess it was in operation for about six months. Then of all things I saw this job in the Financial Review. I still wasn’t all that well connected as far as the credit union was concerned, it was just something that I knew we could be involved in. They didn’t have anything in Kurri. They had a branch in Cessnock. Whilst I know what happened now, because I have read the old back Minutes etc., I saw this job in the Financial Review. I thought I wouldn’t mind applying for it, because I had been with Johnsons for some time. Actually when I first went to work for Johnsons I was at one engineering firm and they had bought it out. Then I actually moved back to their colliery site for a while. Then I came back to Machinery Overhauls which was taken over Joy Manufacturing. So I guess I had been with the Johnsons for over ten years so I was becoming a part of the furniture. Of course the American influence, when they bought it out and it became Joy Manfacturing, did have a lot of bearing on the way I know how to do things I suppose. They like their pound of flesh. They were good people to work with but you had to work very hard and they had some very good ideas. But I felt it was time to move on and I saw this job in the Financial Review and applied for it and went through some interviews etc., which in itself was quite funny the way it worked out. Yes that was the involvement.
What do you mean it was funny the way it worked out?
WG: Well I guess I will never forget the first. You obviously apply for these jobs and you go up and talk to the people that the credit union had hired, who were a firm of head-hunters at this stage. They narrowed it down to three or four people. Those interviews were fine, there was no problems with that. But when it got down to the nitty-gritty there was two or three of us had to go back for this interview with the Board. Of course I went into the Board and you know I had a good job, I had a company car and the wages were fine and whilst it wasn’t the spur of the moment it wasn’t really worrying me if I didn’t get it.
Did you wear a tie?
WG: Yes I did when I went for the interview yes. I wore a tie and was very well presented. But at that stage my wife and I were living at Weston and we were involved in buying a business for her in Newcastle and we were going to move down to Newcastle and live. To this day we still have a laugh, the Chairman and a few of the other older Directors. Noel in particular, who is the Chairman, didn’t really like the idea that I wouldn’t be involved totally with the credit union twenty-four hours a day, that we would have this business that Cheryl could run. Fortunately, one of the other Directors had had shops during his working career and he really stuck for me. He said, ‘You can do both of these things.’ So eventually it came down to a couple of interviews and then they offered me the job. I said, ‘Well I am interested, but I really do want to talk you about the nitty-gritty.’ So it was an eye-opener for them when I walked back in and said, ‘OK, you have now offered me the job, which is fine, here are the terms and conditions.’ They said, ‘But we have offered you all the terms and conditions.’ I said, ‘That is what you offered, but here is what I want. I don’t want Board involvement.’ By that stage I had picked up that the previous Manager had left because of interference, if you like, from the Board. Part of the conversation today should mention that, because he will also come up in other people’s notes, would be Beresford Calverley. Beresford at that stage was on our Board.
How did that happen?
WG: Well if you ever get to meet Noel McDonald, our Chairman, and some of the other Directors.
I’ve met Raul.
WG: Well of course they were fairly naive when our credit union formed. Until last year I think we were the last one formed in New South Wales. They realised very early that the only way they could do the thing properly was to come and talk to people. Well I think Steve Birt was working with the old League at the time and so was Keith Mannix, who is now at the Reserve Board. So they were the operators if you like that the League had to come and help these people form the credit union. During the course of their meetings they must have bumped into Beresford at one stage. Noel being the delightful character he is must have said to Beresford, ‘Well we have got a vacancy on our Board why don’t you come and join our Board?’ Well of course Beresford then used to fly up once or twice a month to Cessnock to attend these Board meetings. I will never forget, when Beresford died we received a lot of the information that he had stored pertaining to our credit union, it was sent back up. We went through it and we have stored some, Noel has got a bit of some of the other stuff that is there. But some of the Minutes that he had kept that I was able to read, which really weren’t available in the credit union’s papers. One was Beresford writing to Noel complaining about the fact that when he got off the plane, the Manager didn’t meet him. He had been banging on the door outside the office for half-an-hour and as it turned it out Wayne was in the pub across the road looking out the window laughing his head off at Beresford not being able to get in the credit union office. So of course that set the tone for some of these meetings, so I guess it wasn’t long before Wayne decided that there were better places to work, than working for this old terror. That is when I came on to the scene. But you got people like Beresford and I have mentioned Steve Birt and Keith Mannix, so that is starting to involve some of our history. Certainly Beresford did have a role to play in instructing our people how to run meetings. If there was anything that Beresford was very good at it was formalities of how you do things, documentation, etc. It did improve for the couple of years that he was on the Board. He was in everything.
So what wised you up to the fact that you were going to have to put your foot down if you were going to take the job?
WG: Well I had started to talk to some of the existing staff. At that stage the credit union only had about six or seven, so I got to know the person who is now my Assistant Manager well enough to ask some questions. I got the inkling then that there may be some problems between the staff and the Board. I also mentioned that I knew Billy Chapman who was the Miners’ President. The credit union did start under the auspices of the Miners’ Federation in Newcastle, there is no doubt about that. I used to go fishing with Billy and a few of the others. I rang him up and I got some questions and this is where I started to form the opinion that may be there were problems between the staff, both managerial and other people, and the Directors. It was really a hands-on thing. These blokes had started the credit union and they still wanted to fund every loan and they wanted to be involved in the whole lot. But Noel, God bless him, had enough nous, and I think there had been other problems, for him to realise it couldn’t go on. If it was to grow and continue to grow he had to virtually rap them across the knuckles and make them step back a bit and be involved in the planning but not the actual running. See they wanted to come down at half-past three every afternoon when they knocked off work and sit down and find out which one of their mates had loans and that sort of thing. It was very small at that stage, but it was very good.
So what did they say when you told them?
WG: I think it suprised them a bit that I was game to talk to these people. Whilst they were mine workers in the main, they I suppose were starting to believe that they were gods to think they were running the credit union for miners. They had been on the Board and I suppose with the roles they played were becoming more powerful and I suppose it was a bit of a shock to them for a fellow to stand up and say, ‘I really don’t want more interference if we are going to cure any problems that you have got.’ Of course they were saying there were no problems and I was able to turn round and say, ‘Well why did your previous Manager leave? Is it true you have had some problems with the Miners’ Federation as far as interference,’ etc. So it was cards on the table and some frank discussions and it worked that I was going to do certain things and they were going to do certain things and it has been pretty good relationship.
That’s very interesting. There was no chance that the other fellow might get the job? The other people?
WG: Well I have never been sure about this and I have never really had the time to check it out, but I think Enzio ???? was the guy’s name, from it used to be the CSIRO Credit Union but I can’t think of the name of it now, Sunderland Shire, I had a feeling that he may have been one of the applicants and one who was short-listed for the job as well. I think it was the local boy thing I think and the fact that I hadn’t worked in credit unions. At that point in time the credit union had been going for about six years. The fact that I was able to walk in and say to these people, ‘This is not a little club’
End Tape 1A: 5470 Words: 2 Hours 5 minutes
So when did you do your first credit union School, or were involved in any credit union education?
WG: I guess the first education, I would like to point this out, would have to be a self-education type thing. Having been in the movement for a very short period of time and Berry Calverley was still on the Board, I joined in August and he was actually voted out in September, so there was a month that Beresford was there, a very short period with Beresford.
What at the League?
WG: No, at our credit union. I think there was just a general resentment of Beresford at that stage. From what I can gather he had played up at some of the meetings or after the meetings and there had been bottles of scotch drunk and a few other things. So they brought it to a head and I think he decided he wouldn’t stand any further. But they were continually throwing up about the Association to me and I didn’t understand what they were talking about. I had been involved in some business things and I knew a bit about it. So I basically decided I would come down to Sydney, it wasn’t an ambition it was a plan. I drove into Burwood and I parked around the back streets here, walked in at the ground floor, introduced myself and then proceeded to walk up throughout the building, and all the floors were occupied at that stage, introducing myself to the various people at the Association and asking what the hell they did and what could they do for me. I think that was a surprise for a few people, but I really wanted to understand a bit more about their central banking and training services and supply. Over a period of months I was able to get that. Of course I came to any meeting that was on, I really wanted to get myself educated as far as the credit union movement was concerned. I knew nothing, as I said I was an outsider, people were talking about this great movement and how things were done and my attitude to that was quite frankly that it was bull shit, that it shouldn’t happen that way. It is a business and we should run it that way, it is not a little club. I soon got to know the people and I soon got to understand and to recognise fairly quickly that they were all genuine people, that they were all trying to do things for the credit union movement and for the members. Of course the first one that came up after that was I think the Albury Exposition for the Managers. So I promptly took myself off to Albury, didn’t know anybody as far as other credit unions were concerned. But in sitting down in the meetings and listening to people and talking to people I got to know some of the people. I think the first fellow that ever took me under his wing, so to speak, would have had to have been Ken Byrne from Berrima, who I am sure will be part of these notes as well. His involvement goes back a long time.
I have already interviewed him, yes.
WG: But Ken as you know is a very generous sort of fellow and he was able to fill in some of the spots for me. I would be saying, ‘Well why isn’t he talking to him,’ or ‘What’s the history, there is obviously bad blood between these fellows?’ There are some very, very good people in this industry. There are a few snobs but you can simply overcome that by walking up and introducing yourself in the loudest terms. The next time you come into a meeting they will say hello because they know if they ignore you, you are going to introduce yourself even louder. So they soon talk to you the second time, they may not like you but at least they will talk to you. No it was really a self-education thing. I virtually went to everything that was on. I suppose that the courses that were run through the Association, getting to know people like Ian Ross, who is now at the Reserve Board, Ian was with the Association. I think he had just about finished with the credit union that was here that virtually went up to Metropolitan as far as the merger goes. Ian was a great person as far as I am concerned, he was able to fill me in on a lot of the things that credit unions had to do as far as returns, etc. I suppose every second day I would ring them up and say, ‘What is this, what have I got to do?’ I found that I could get all the help I wanted from the Association. You have got to remember at that stage our credit union was only fairly small, we only had about six or seven staff. That is one of the success stories, that I have been able to gain that education by talking to these people here. It did help me. As we have grown bigger there are certainly some of the services that we don’t use any more, but that is the way that things evolve. I have taken that attitude through with the Reserve Board and the Registrar, if I had a question to ask I have asked it. Whether I have liked the answer or not doesn’t really matter, the fact is I have asked them. In the early days I used to talk to the various credit union Managers around the country at the various meetings and they would say, ‘Oh you can’t do that at the Reserve Board.’ I would say, ‘Why? Why can’t I go and ask them a question? They felt the Reserve Board was sort of a god, but I would say, ‘Oh bull shit, let’s go and find out.’ It was the different ways of accounting and those sorts of things. If that what the industry requires then you have to conform to it. I don’t have any problems with that. There may be some ideas that you may not like, but if that is the way the industry wants its reporting done, then you report that way.
So did you have any major problems when you started as Manager? Were there things you had to put right or change?
WG: The only thing that I would say as far as our particular credit union was concerned about putting right, was the fact that there had been some problems between the previous management and the Board. It was really a problem where they would give instructions and it wouldn’t be carried out. Now that was soon remedied because I then had some meetings between our Board and all of the staff, I think we had a cup of tea a couple of times. Everybody got to know everybody better than what they had. The understandings, or misunderstandings, were soon cleared up and it was then a matter of putting into policy whatever the Board and management would decide at the various meetings. Our Board doesn’t make rash decisions, quite frankly, they give things due consideration, they have always been fairly good at that. Then it was up to me to go back to the staff and say OK this is what we are going to do. Providing they were always involved and knew what was happening we never had a problem. That was the only thing, some minor misunderstandings I think but that was cleared up pretty quickly.
What about the credit union in the local community after the Kurri failure?
WG: Well remember Cessnock and Kurri, whilst they are neighbouring towns, are exactly that. Before the Knights Football Team came along in Newcastle there was always the two colourful do’s, which was Cessnock playing Kurri, that was traditional a blood and guts match each year, twice. They would literally pound the shit out of each other for I guess forty minutes each way, twice a year. Then go and get drunk at the local pub or the club together. The two communities were separate. What we were able to do as a credit union, I think about six years ago we made a decision that we would re-open a credit union office back in Kurri. For the first twelve months I think we had these things thrown up to us time and time again, but it was two different lots of people. With Kurri Community Credit Union it was exactly that, it was a community credit union. At that stage we were still Northern Mineworkers’ Credit Union and we were only dealing with the mineworkers. It was only in the latter parts that we have gone into the community. So we had a nucleus of people there anyway, it wasn’t a problem. We have been able to prove year after year that we can make reasonable profits. We advertise fairly heavily up there and we have always emphasised the strength of the Reserve Board. That is one of the things that for me, there has not been a time in my involvement that I haven’t had the Reserve Board there, that I have not been able to say, ‘Your funds are being guaranteed and protected.’ At Kurri you simply went back out and re-emphasised the fact that things had changed. In fact I used to clearly tell people, if I was at a meeting, that it was because of the Kurri Community Credit Union, not the total reason but one of the reasons, the Reserve Board in New South Wales was formed. Since that formation thirteen years ago there has not been a credit union failure. So their record rate has always been good. I think we have solved that problem, it is no longer an issue. So we have actually opened up an office back there and it does very well.
George Warnicker was telling me this morning that he was trying to get the RSL to open a credit union.
WG: You have got to remember I suppose, that whilst my dad was in the Second World War, you have got to remember that the RSL movement as such on the coal fields has never been all that strong. In fact, it has always been a Memorial Club rather than the RSL. Even the building that we own, the first major building that we have ever owned. When I first went to the credit union we were in a very small building. We then progressed to the stage when we had to get some more room and I actually bought the Old Soldiers Memorial Hall in Cessnock, which is still our Cessnock Branch. We have got a different operation for our administration, but the Cessnock Branch still runs out of this old building. But there are two distinct movements in our area, you have got the RSL movement and Memorial Clubs. The clubs were never an RSL club because the unions, as far as coal miners were concerned, were not into conscription. They were whatever the word was, they were not involved in conscription in the Second World War because they were an important industry, whatever the word was for that, so the government exempted them from conscription. So the only people from the coal fields who virtually went to War were volunteers. So a lot of the younger people that who if they had lived in another area may have been conscripted, because they were working in coal mines weren’t conscripted.
Now when did you first become involved in the credit union movement outside your own credit union? How did this come about?
WG: Right. Well I guess I am going to get into trouble sooner or later. The history of the movement as far as I am concerned is that there were four Associations. There was the Hunter Region Association, the Wollongong, or Southern, Association, the Central Association and the Association of New South Wales. Even though we were in the Hunter Region we were always affiliated with the Association as we know it today at Burwood. We never ever attended the meetings of the Hunter Regional group because we were virtually outside of that group. Our allegiance, if you like, was back to Burwood. That is because of Steve Birt and Keith Mannix’s involvement in the formation of our credit union. Anyway when the amalgamations started to come in place we then put the Northern, or the Hunter Region if you like, and the Wollongong Region into bed with the Association. The Central Association went bust. Now Bill Prince will tell you he is from the credit union movement and that is bull shit, his employer is, or was until he retired, Greater Newcastle Building Society. Of course my Board have always hated the fact that these people have got credit unions called the Greater Newcastle Miners Credit Union, which is a peanut operation, and the Greater Newcastle Credit Union. Of course the Newcastle Permanent which is very strong in that area also has a credit union. Of course the mineworkers in particular use this claim that NMCU, or Northern Mineworkers was their credit union and the other ones shouldn’t have existed anyway, especially not calling themselves the Greater Newcastle Miners. So if you like we were then faced with a situation where Bill Prince was the nominated delegate to be the representative from our Region on the Association Board. There was some conjecture as to whether he should have got the second term or not, because it really came about at the Annual Meeting something we believe had been slipped through where Bill was elected unopposed again. We thought he was up for election the next year and we really didn’t get it until it got to the AGM. So we decided, both the Board and I, that that was never ever going to happen again. Bob Scott from Elcom, or Muggins from Northern Mineworkers at the time, that we would oppose Bill. I made it very clear when that year came round, I think they had a two year term at that stage.
What about Kevin Pareira?
WG: Well by that stage Kevin was starting to drift away anyway. Kevin has always been anti the Association or, if you like, any body that he couldn’t control. If he can’t control it he doesn’t want to belong to it. He is a little bit like the boy with his cricket bat, wanting to take it and go home. There is another story to that, obviously, with the current developments. Kevin was never one that he wanted to be elected. If he could be appointed he was happy but he didn’t really want to stand up and be elected. The course of the matter went through and Bill was due for election at a latter part of the year. I made it known at one of the Regional meetings that I certainly would be standing for the Board. I am not sure how the election would have gone quite frankly, but because there was to be some opposition and it had been advertised by me telling what I was going to do, Bill decided that he wouldn’t stand so I was elected unopposed. I suppose it was one of those things, but if we can blame anybody or thank anybody I guess it is because of Bill. I have a little joke, and I hope this never gets back to Bill Prince because I think Bill is a nice guy now but in the early parts we were not really enamoured with some of his philosophies and some of his deliverances. I have got a lovely dog at home, a boxer dog who I call Prince. The idea was that after some of these Regional meetings I could go and kick the shit out of Prince, which was our dog you see. I hope Bill never finds out about that little story, but still.
Probably a dog lover and wouldn’t believe you would do it anyway.
WG: You have only got to take one look at this gorgeous boxer dog and wouldn’t believe me anyway.
I have recorded Bill Prince in Newcastle shortly after the earthquake.
WG: Well that was another little story.
Incidentally were you involved with the earthquake? Did you have any problems?
WG: I have got a very fond memory of the earthquake, and I have got a Visa card receipt to prove it. My wife and I were actually walking down the main street of Parramatta and I actually saw something in a jeweller’s shop, which is very rare for me, and I decided I would like it and went in a bought it for her. It was at the time the earthquake was happening. We then got back in the car and were going back to North Sydney and heard about it on the radio station. We tried to ring home and ring the offices up there and couldn’t get through so we decided we had better duck back home to find out what was going on. We were then passed by thirty or forty ambulances heading off to Newcastle and we decided it must have been fairly serious. I think we may have had some cracks in one of the buildings, the Old Soldiers Memorial which have developed lately more than at the time of the earthquake. We may have to have some checking up done. Some of our members were involved, but really not to any great extent. We do have members in Newcastle, Lake Macquarie. Basically we closed our office in Newcastle about seven or eight years ago, so all of our offices are in the outer suburbs and not a great deal of damage.
Did you have anything to do with the closure of the office in Newcastle?
WG: Yes. The office in itself was in the old Miners’ Federation. Unity House, something like that, which was the old office of the Miners’ Federation and it dated back from year dot as far as the Miners’ Federation was concerned. It was a very old building, it was very damp, dusky and we were right at the back of it and there was no natural light. Quite frankly it was next door to the Newcastle Workers’ Club and the whole lot of it has now been pulled down. We decided about eight years ago that there was not a lot of business happening in Newcastle for the credit union, you need to be out in the suburbs where people live. Newcastle as a shopping centre, Hunter Street itself, is dying there is no doubt about it. By the time you take the major Garden City and Jesmond Fair where people can drive to, which is the modern day way of doing things, Hunter Street has really got some problems unless they can provide all that parking. It is a tragedy but it is going to be a nothing in the very near future as far as I am concerned. That is one of the reasons I had no problems with Communications or SGE, or some of these other metropolitan credit unions coming up to Newcastle because they would all go into Hunter Street. We do very well in the suburbs, they can have Hunter Street it doesn’t worry me at all. So yes we closed it down. But it was very interesting because when we moved out of that office the fellows that were in charge of the Miners’ Federation were obviously getting old and they resigned. There was a new fellow came in called Ronnie Land. He actually did what they had been talking about doing for twenty years, he sold that building, moved out to Cardiff as far as the Federation was concerned. We have actually taken an office underneath them, they have got a two storey place out there and we have got the bottom section of that building. We did have an office at Cardiff but we moved back under their premises which we rent back from the Federation. So in the early days I had an office with the Miners’ Federation and closed it. They took my lead, if you like, by moving out to the suburbs where their members were, and we then moved back in with them. So there is still a fairly close affiliation there.
Do you remember how you started to fit in at the Association here when you came in as a Director?
WG: I don’t know that I do fit in. I have always been one that spoke my mind, a spade is a spade, a shovel is a shovel. I don’t wear a tie and I know that Steve doesn’t like that for the Annual Reports, etc., but that doesn’t worry me. I think it would be a case of misrepresentation if I did wear a tie for that glossy photo, which I also happen to think is a big waste of money as far as spending that sort of money on an Annual Report for the Association. I think it is a huge joke because the credit unions don’t particularly want it. We get a couple of copies and throw them in the bottom of the drawer. As far as fitting in, part of my obligations I think as far as the Association is concerned as a Director is to get the best deals for credit unions. But also we do employ a number of staff here and I have tried to make sure that whilst I don’t get involved in the day-to-day stuff, that they are looked after as well as can be as far as conditions, etc., are concerned.
As a Director what have you particularly kept your eye on? Have you sort of specialised in one area or have you roved over everything in your time here?
WG: With this movement I am not sure that you can specialise in any particular area, quite frankly. There are just so many things happening and it has been right from the day that I first came on the Board. With the various subsidiary companies that we have got, with the changes in the movement, with the changes in the Act, with the changes in the Reserve Board and what things are happening you really have to be across as many of the items as you can. In a lot of cases you may not fully understand the total picture but you have got to try and do the best you can with the limited time and the knowledge that you have got. It is a matter of trying to keep up to date. You must rely on the staff, the management and the staff, that once you have made a decision to go off in a certain direction, and nine times out of ten it is working with them as far as guidance and considered advice to get the nitty-gritty things, the day-to-day stuff out, you have then got to rely on those people to do the job for you.
What about the Hunter Committee, which you Chair?
WG: Well of course that is starting to wind down because of the new national body. We didn’t have anybody coming to the meetings at all but we have got to the stage where we have very good attendance. Even with that now, because of, if you like, the maturity and the knowledge that a lot of the people have gained in the Hunter Region, not because of me but because the people have been ringing up to talk to us at meetings, they have grown up a hell of a lot as well. Instead of having monthly meetings I think we have now decided to go back to a two-monthly meeting, which is fine. As I said before, my attitude was you just can’t sit back and let people come to you if you are not sure. The fact of the matter is that you are a credit union Manager, your credit union does own part of the Association, so you do have entitlements. Part of that entitlement is the fact that you can pick up the phone and talk to whoever you want to talk to down there. If that doesn’t work out you jump in your car and come down here. But if we are doing business such as member checking, or whatever, and it really is that they are supplying services and we are buying them, then you have to come down and find out what is going on. I think the Hunter Region groups have done that. They have actually got off their bums and found out what it is about and did it themselves. This is great, this is what it is all about.
How many credit unions are represented on the Hunter Region group?
WG: It obviously varies, but I think there are still about seventeen credit unions in that Region.
That only includes the ones that are in the New South Wales Association?
WG: No, you have probably got to take out three or four, three now I think that aren’t affiliated. The rest of them are affiliated. There have been a couple of mergers so the numbers have come down a little bit. But there are still a number of very small industrial credit unions in the Hunter Region, that is why the numbers are so high.
What about for instance the iron workers were very much involved at one stage but not any more? That was the Hunter United wasn’t it?
WG: Hunter United was initially BHP Employees’ Credit Union and it changed its name to the local football team, Hunter United or whatever. I think you will find that the iron workers as such, again if you follow the history of the union movement, they have probably dropped off a little bit as far as their activities. I think you will find there are probably more professional people on that Board of Hunter United. Now that is only just my observation, I may not be right. But certainly I don’t think there would be as many iron workers as what there were in previous times.
The Greater Newcastle is represented on the Hunter group?
WG: Yes. Of course one of the things there with Bill Prince leaving, he has resigned now, Greg Davis who is the Manager of the credit union side of Greater Newcastle is actually on the Membership Council. If you like there has been probably some success stories and some failures with Hunter United and Newcastle Credit Union which belongs to Newcastle Permanent Building Society and maybe Phoenix, that is about it, we may have lost those if you like. But we have had some successes like Greater Newcastle where I think that Bill in all honesty has recognised that the Credit Union Association can offer better services that what he could get through the building society. That is why, I think, we have been able to get them back into the fold, which is important. I think the other ones will come back in to over a matter of time, that is my own opinion.
So have there been any problems at meetings there? What sort of things do you discuss?
WG: Well I don’t think there have been any problems, there certainly hasn’t been any major controversy. It has always been fairly open and whatever the subjects are my attitude has been that I have always tried to be honest. If I can give them the information that I have got, then I certainly will. But at times there have been restrictions such as when we were looking at buying the Bridges operation, whatever the rumours we had made a promise around this Board table that we would not divulge it to the credit unions at that point in time because it was a business and commercial decision. So when the questions were raised to a certain point my attitude was, and my answer was, I am not prepared to discuss that at this point in time, now you can either take it or leave it but that is the answer. I have explained to them why and let it go at that. I have never really had a problem with that type of attitude so it doesn’t worry me. Nor do I think it has worried them a great deal, they have accepted what the true position has been.
Is there a role that has been constructive to the movement? Has it been constructive from an input point of view to the Association?
WG: I think from the input point of view, what we have been able to do is to get them more involved. You have got to remember that the Hunter is the amalgamation what was the Hunter Association and the people like ourselves who owed our allegiance, if you like, to Burwood. There has been that amalgamation. There has certainly been input as to what their attitudes have been. For instance if we have had a Regional meeting I can’t think of a topic where a stance has been taken. I think Marketing is probably an area where we have clearly been able to demonstrate, whether we like it or not, that we can’t get them to vote as a group to go into mass marketing. There are some stories there, but that is beside the point. The message has always come back to the Association but they just won’t vote for it. We have tried at various AGMs, but they won’t go for it. But the involvement where they were never inclined to go to the meetings be it Sydney, Albury, the National Convention or whatever, it is fair to say now that we do have a fairly good representation at all those meetings. So it is not only anything I can tell them, they are getting out their themselves and keeping themselves abreast of what is happening.
What about what they tell you, to come the other way?
WG: By and large, it might be my personality, it is a one-way street. Whilst I listen to what they have got to say, and I certainly would bring it back, most of the meetings have been an informative type where we have tried to bring them up-to-date with what is happening at the Association. I have always believed that you can’t really take a consensus from one Region and when I am at this Board it is not that Region that is voting, I am voting on what I consider to be best for the movement at large. So it has been a one-way street to the extent that we have been trying to keep them up-to-date, fully informed on what is happening. With regards to them sending information back down the line, my attitude has been that the Board won’t take a decision unless it is voted for by the movement as such. You will have the opportunities at the AGMs to do exactly that, or at the Regional Conferences which not only involves myself but it involves the people from ANSWCU and from AFCUL as well, so we have all the bodies there. So I am not sure that there has been a lot of flow-back from the Region as far as the Association is concerned. I think it is because they are better informed than what they were.
Which Annual Meeting with the New South Wales Association was the first one that you attended, do you remember?
WG: 1981 would have been.
Was that the first year that you were employed?
WG: Yes, definitely.
So the Reserve Board was already in position, and such like? There were no arguments as far as that is concerned?
WG: The Reserve Board was already there, definitely.
So what was happening at Association Board level at that stage? You were just about to go into ATMs and things like that, was there any controversy on the Board about things? If so what was it?
WG: I haven’t really done any homework as far as the controversial things that have happened at the AGMs. I think the first one I attended we had got away from what the old fellows talk about, two day blood on the floor meetings, etc. By the time I started to get into these meetings or come to these meetings, then of course they were back to a one-day meeting which was fairly civilised. The first two were held at some converted bowling alley out towards the University, Kensington I think they may have been held at.
Unisearch House.
WG: Unisearch House at Kensington. Then I think we moved back to the city and by and large I am not sure but the Hilton has been the venue for the last few meetings.
End Tape 1B: 5526 Words: 2 hours 5 minutes.
I asked you first about the Annual Meetings before you were a member of the Board. Anything memorable at the Annual Meetings that you can relate, before you were on the Board?
WG: By and large, as I was saying before we changed the tape, I think by the time I came around in 1981 it was a fairly civilised sort of an event. I think the old fellows like to talk about the blood and guts on the floor and the difficulties of some of the meetings, but by and large I think it was fairly civilised and the Regional meetings were in place. So everybody had the opportunity to be fairly well informed prior to coming to the meetings. The things that would stick in my memory would be the second, or perhaps the third meeting I attended where Beresford Calverley was not re-elected, actually stood for the Board and was not successful in the ballot. That was very sad, because even though I had only met him a few times obviously Noel and some of our Board were involved with Beresford. I know that Noel virtually advised him not to stand even prior to the election. But that was sad and that was the end of Beresford because he died shortly after that.
Do you think it upset him, losing?
WG: No doubt about that. I know that when the meeting concluded I think Steve may have been in the Chair, or Bill Howe, I am not too sure, said a few very nice words about Beresford. As soon as he closed the meeting Beresford bolted. I know that Noel went to talk to him and try and calm him down a bit, but that was not to be. They got on very well and they could talk to one another, but no Noel couldn’t pacify him at all and Beresford kept on going. Yes it did upset him and clearly he never really recovered from it. There are various thoughts on it as to whether he should or should not have been there, but it was very sad to see it happen the way it did.
He took it to heart that much?
WG: Very much so.
Of course at that time he sort of dropped out of everything else hadn’t he, and it was all he had left I suppose.
WG: Well I am not too sure how old he was at the end, but certainly that was about the only involvement that he had. I think it was a sign of the times that there were a number of the younger people coming through. If there is one thing about this industry, we have always been very lucky that we have had some of these older fellows to educate us and they have done a damn good job. We now tend to stand up for our own rights as well and maybe that backfires on them a little bit. But we have been lucky that they have hung around as long as they could, yes.
What was discussed at the 1981, 1982, 1983, I suppose that would be at the height of the ATM installation and that wasn’t very controversial was it?
WG: No it really wasn’t as far as the ATMs were concerned. You have got to remember with the ATMs it was a separate group of credit unions that formed a company that started the ATMs off and you were either a shareholder in those companies or you weren’t. In our particular case we weren’t a shareholder but we were one of the first country credit unions to put an ATM in. Basically the decision at that time was whether we would be a shareholder in AFS, which didn’t guarantee us a machine in Cessnock, or we would buy a machine. In both cases the cost was around about $50,000, so we elected to buy the machine.
So the question really is, what decisions were you involved in here at the Board, at the Association?
WG: I guess the first major decision area would have been to buy into, or to set up Bridges as we know it today, which is our investment arm. It was probably controversial in that it was one of the first decisions for a long time that the movement was not informed of prior to it happening. We were talking about spending a $1 million of the movement’s money to get into this thing but we weren’t able to go out and talk to people about it, primarily because it was a business decision and we didn’t want our competitors, as we know them today, to know what we were doing. So once it started to get out amongst the credit unions they weren’t happy. In some case there is still a bit of ill-feeling about it because they don’t use that particular service and they believe that there is no need for credit unions or the Association to own its own investment arm. Personally I do because I think that even though we only own fifty per cent of it, with the Association forty and the national body ten per cent, I think it is wise that we do own it. You have only got to look at what has happened over the last I guess two or three years, or even more recent times, with the various investments that are out there where people have been hurt. It is one thing I can say about the advice that Bridges have given people, it generally has tended to stand the test of time in the recent days of property trusts, etc. In fact they were advising their clients, which are our members, to bail out of some of the Victorian investments well before it got into problems. So I think it has been good. The other things that have happened of course, of any controversy at all since I have been here? Well obviously Reg Elliott had gone by the time that I got here and John Harper was the General Manager. I suppose one of the worst times I have had was in seeking John’s resignation, it was fairly traumatic. John, I am not sure and I don’t care what other people say about him, quite frankly he was the man of the time. He did a good job as far as uniting the country credit unions back to the Association, did a very good PR job with them. I know he fell out with a few of the larger metropolitan ones, but was certainly well liked and loved within the country regions. The things that happened with the staff, etc., my knowledge of that is fairly limited. I do know that may be things got a little bit out of hand and it probably had to happen the way that it has happened. That was the way I said it at the time, that John did have to go. We were at that stage looking for some stable management, because I think we were beginning to look down the track towards as we call it Project Renewal. John’s personality coupled with Reg Elliott I don’t think would have ever worked, they both are very strong personalities. So it probably was for the best for everybody that we severed our ties and installed Stuart in the job, who has done a very good job, magnificent.
Marketing? You were involved in the Marketing Committee for a while, were you involved with John Harper?
WG: Yes, certainly. Well John was the Manager at the time and Lorraine Morden was here as the Association person for the Marketing. At that stage through the Hunter Region we were involved in marketing, but have since elected as a Region not to be involved. That was a time before I was on the Board where it is a matter of going round to the various country regions and trying to convince people the effectiveness of how it would work for credit unions to be involved in mass marketing. I still believe to this day that it should be compulsory, but of course that doesn’t go down too well. It is compulsory where they elect to do it. One of the problems with the areas that it is not compulsory, such as the Hunter Region, is that we do get a spin-off from the Sydney TV. For instance if I am at home watching TV at all, it will be a Sydney channel it won’t be a local channel. May be the local news, but that is about it.
So you have been involved in a campaign to sell to mass marketing?
WG: Yes. That has good and bad points. I suppose I got to meet a lot more people, but it was very difficult in the early stages to convince people that a centralised campaign, or unified campaign, was the way to go. They all believed, and I suppose it is only human nature, that they could do it more effectively in their own local regions. First of all you had to prove a point that with credit unions being on TV in a unified campaign, the particular campaigns that were run were as effective as, and probably better for the credit union movement, rather than say in one TV commercial we might have had, as in our area we have still got it, Companion Credit Union one minute and Elcom the next. So the image campaign certainly doesn’t help us in that area at the moment, apart from the spin-off they get from Sydney. Yes it has been an interesting concept and it has been important at times for the Association. I think it will become important again under the new national body. At the moment it has just been voted in for another three years at certain Regions in New South Wales. I think it is successful where they have got it and it does mean that the credit unions do have to co-operate with one another. So from that point alone it has been very important, it has brought them together.
I don’t watch TV myself, but I have noticed that a lot of surprising people have picked up on credit unions, people who I thought it would never enter their heads to use a credit union.
WG: Well I think the awareness of credit unions since mass marketing, or as it was then co-operative marketing as it was then has been going probably for eight years now, the awareness of people where the campaigns have been run is far greater today than it was eight years ago, there is no doubt about that. Credit unions are now mentioned whereas if something was happening it would be a bank or a building society, at least credit unions now get a mention in it. You have only got to look at the growth, and it certainly has worked.
If I mention I am involved in doing histories of credit unions. Oh credit unions, every body seems to be interested. If they are not involved with one they know about it. It is obvious that the campaign has lifted people’s awareness quite considerably.
WG: Yes. I think that the awareness campaign is important. People say we have done sufficient, we now should go on to product stuff. Though I still believe that products have got to be done, individual products have got to be done at the credit union level, the awareness campaign is an overall campaign.
So what else have you been involved in as far as decision-making is concerned, or discussions?
WG: Well I suppose over the last two or three years the main topic of the agenda, and it has occupied a lot of time of the Board, would have been Project Renewal. The day-to-day stuff of the Association has been running fairly smoothly and we haven’t really had a lot of new products to look at. There have been computer installations and those sorts of things, but basically they are things that happen as a matter of course. I suppose Project Renewal has been the number one prime aim. Whilst we haven’t totally devoted every meeting to it, there has certainly been a mention of it at every meeting. With the developments and trying to get it out to all the credit unions and convincing people. Basically what we have done is followed from the instructions that we were given at the various AGMs, as a Board, and then tried to get those implemented. We are still I guess halfway down that track. There is quite a deal of work to be done there.
I of course am talking to a lot of people around the credit union movement and there seems to be a lot of people who don’t know, and I am one of them for a start, exactly what is going on. In spite of the fact that you hear about it, I have never seen a document in that area. Most of the people I talk to don’t seem to know what is going on. They might not have been ones that are immediately actively involved, Board members of credit unions.
WG: I would have to say that if they are not aware, or if they claim they don’t know what is going on.
They don’t know exactly what is proposed.
WG: Well I think as far as being exact, there are things still evolving as to what we are going to do. Now if they claim that they are not aware of what Project Renewal is all about, rather than the exact things that are happening, now I don’t believe those people should be in the movement. With the documentation we could have filled three trucks with the documentation that has been issued out of this place and from the national body. It has been an agenda item for several AGMs of the Association. It has certainly been the topic of a number of Regional conferences right around through New South Wales. If they don’t understand what is happening then I really believe it is their fault. The problem has been trying to keep up with the documentation and reading it. There have been quite a number of volumes put out there. I think the fault lies at the credit union level where they have been used to being force-fed by documentation and precis of documentation from the Association to make their life easier. This is the first time that I can ever remember that they have been expected to read it and understand it themselves.
I am a terrible bower bird that is going around picking things up. Wherever I go around and I see a piece of paper work that I haven’t found before, I pick it up and take home and read it. I always do that everywhere I go and particularly since I am doing the historical stuff here now, naturally I do that. I haven’t yet found one that was relevant to Project Renewal, as yet anywhere in my travels. I have asked a number of people exactly what is proposed and nobody has been able to give me a straight answer yet. Now I will ask you, what is proposed?
WG: What is proposed under Project Renewal is to bring the nationalisation of the credit union movement to reality. At the moment we have independent State Associations, we have numerous companies that we own in various ways throughout the State movements. In today’s world and in the twenty-first century it is going to be terribly important that we have a streamlined organisation. That is it in a nutshell, it is to streamline the organisation. It is not something that is going to happen today, tomorrow or in the next couple of months. It is going to take years to accomplish but what we will end up with has to better than what we have got. When Project Renewal first started to be mooted my first reaction to that was, ‘I am not happy with the organisation that we have today, therefore I can’t know what is being proposed.’ There are certain elements that I would like to see changed, but those things are happening. We do have a National Board the elections have taken place. In my opinion credit unions have been given far too many opportunities to vote on the issues, as far as New South Wales is concerned, with Project Renewal. It was certainly raised from the floor at an AGM. We have gone back to them on two occasions. The last time we had the court injunction of course, so we couldn’t. But all we are doing is seeking reaffirmation. It will do nothing else than streamline the movement. As I say it won’t be today and it won’t be tomorrow it will take several years for this to happen but we will end up with an organisation whereby the chain of command and the effectiveness and the efficiency of the operation will obviously benefit the credit unions. If I can just draw an example. At the credit union level we have a Board and we have management, that is how easy it is to make a decision and implement something. The Board make a decision, they talk about it with management and it happens. Under the present thing or prior arrangements, we had a national body, it then had to come back down to the State level, it then may have had to passed on to a company that the State owned to have it put into place, etc. etc., so there were virtually three or four steps before things could happen. Under the new organisation we will have a National Board. The subsidiary companies that we must have will be the same Board, there is no doubt about that in the long term, so they will be able to implement decisions. Another example that I can draw. We have at the moment our own computing company, FCS, we have our own switch company, Ausnet. Now for whatever reasons politically, admittedly we don’t own all of Ausnet we do own all of FCS, there are things happening in direct entries and some other things that those two companies should be talking to one another about for efficiency. That is not happening. Under the new national body the Manager of FCS will obviously be our representative on the Ausnet switch company side of things. So you would expect instead of having one playing off against the other you will have far more co-operation. With that the efficiencies then must come back to the credit unions.
What of other representation?
WG: Representation on the various things? Again democracy must have its way, and it will. We have just gone through a very convoluted process of electing a Membership Council and a National Board. That sets the whole train in place for the future developments as far as the National Board. There are going to be democratic elections every year. There are going to be democratic elections every year for the Membership Council. It is up to those two bodies to then go back to the movement, as we have just done with a series of Regional meetings again, to make sure that they are happy with what is happening. That they are fully informed what is happening and to listen to what grievances or suggestions they may have. I think it is there, I don’t think it is a problem.
So the State Boards are abolished are they? Queensland and Victoria?
WG: State Boards by and large. Let me digress from Queensland and Victoria at this time. By and large the State Boards of Western Australia, South Australia and Tasmania have already been replaced by the National Board, the newly elected National Board are in place in those other States. We are in the process now in New South Wales of replacing the State Board with the National Board. Now we have already had a casual vacancy with Bill Pickstock and that has been filled by Greg Kent from Tasmania, he was now on our Board. Bill Howe has now resigned and we are looking at replacing him with a National Board person. I have already indicated that I will resign and Richard Crosbie will replace me. So within months I believe the New South Wales Board will be finished, as far as our now known identity. The legal entity of ANSWCU will remain for a number of years, but the Board will be in place as the National Board. With Victoria there are inherent problems with their legislation that may prevent that happening. In Queensland, God only knows what is happening in Queensland. Quite frankly they are not part of Project Renewal and until they put up they have got no say in it.
The National Board is how many members?
WG: There are nine elected Directors, two Directors appointed from the Membership Council and the Managing Director, Reg Elliott. So there are twelve on the National Board.
Who is the Chairman?
WG: Richard Crosbie from Victoria.
And Victoria aren’t in it?
WG: Victoria are in it, yes, very definitely. But Victoria have problems with their legislation as far as replacing their State Board with Board members from the National Board. Their legislation calls for residential requirements, whereas other States do not.
What about the Council?
WG: The Membership Council has forty horsemen, if you like, forty people on the Membership Council. You have got to remember that the Board are charged with the responsibility of running the business and the ethics and how the operation may be affected in the future is really a Membership Council job. What we have tried to do is divorce the politics and the business side of the operation. The National Board are really going to be looking after the business aspects of the operation, which is what we haven’t done in the past. We have allowed politics, and you can go through FCS, Ausnet, ATM companies etc., politics have always played a role. Hopefully now we can say that is out of it, that comes back to the Membership Council who will meet four times a year, I think it is. From that, that should allow credit unions their input. If they have got a problem or what they expect in the future, that can all be debated at the Membership Council and then handed back to the Board.
What would you say to somebody who reckons that their representation has been reduced and the National Board will be even more remote than the State Board?
WG: I wouldn’t have a problem with that. Quite frankly I think the National Board will be further remote that the State Board. But as I said I don’t really have a problem with that, because if you are a member or shareholder in BHP, or any other company you like to nominate, then what is your representation back to that as well apart from the Annual General Meeting.
What is the situation regarding the legal front? Is the movement in Australia after national legislation that will cover all States?
WG: There is a problem at the moment with obviously the Queensland Report, which is the Brady Report, the Peat Marwick Report from Victoria and the Premiers’ Conference which is also holding an independent investigation on non-banking financial institutions, NBFIs. We, I am saying we but I am not part of it, obviously there has been developed by staff in the national body, with input from a lot of people, a national uniform State legislation. Now we really don’t know at this point in time how we are going to get that in place. But if we could, then it does solve a lot of the problems for us. Credit unions in New South Wales, and I have got to be fairly parochial in this, have really got an easy road. We have a good Reserve Board, we have good legislation and everything seems to work fairly well for us, we don’t have the hiccups that appear to he happening in other States.
You all fought for it.
WG: We did all fight for it, and there are still some people that have problems with that. We will continue to fight for it. What we have got to do know is convince the other cowboys, and I mean the other States, that they have to adopt our recommendations. By and large that national State uniform legislation does follow the model fairly well of New South Wales. We have done it, we have got there. I am not prepared to lower our standards, they have to come up to our standards. I don’t believe we should adopt the lowest common denominator.
Do you think you should have a National Reserve?
WG: Ultimately I think we will have a National Reserve. I don’t know the shape of it. I have some reservations about New South Wales credit union in a National Reserve Fund protecting the other States. But by and large I am prepared to go one step further that ultimately we are going to have to pay for a National Reserve Board. I don’t mind paying for it providing we pay for it once. Once it is in place it then is empowered to bring the other cowboys into line. You wouldn’t have things like United or whatever had there been a National Reserve Board place with the strength that we have got in New South Wales. You would only pay for it once, because the people on that thing would fix it within twelve months and rope them in. You may have a situation where the New South Wales contributions may not be as high as the other States for an interim period of time. I just don’t know how it is going to work. But yes I believe we have got to have one, I do.
Now, what haven’t we covered?
WG: I am not too sure. As I said Richard part of my problem is that in any thing like this, whilst I have been in the movement for almost ten years I am still a new boy.
Well right, I will come back in another ten years.
WG: I would love that, I really would. In ten years time I would keep a few notes perhaps.
Well I am seventy and you are?
WG: Fifty-five. One thing I would like to say and would like to get on tape that there are some people in the movement, and I am not going to mention names, but basically we are very fortunate that they are here. When I came into the movement I was a novice, and I am still a novice in a lot of the things that politically happen within our movement. But the generousness of the people I have met, and the credit union movement does get into your blood. We don’t work sixty of seventy hours a week because we don’t love it. We do love it, whether a Manager or a volunteer. That is the strength of credit unions and that is why we will always be there, no doubt that one.
Any regrets about the time you spend away from your family and such like? Does it knock your family around does it knock your health around?
WG: No, I love it. I probably put on too much weight by sitting around on my bum too much in the car and different things. I am lucky that my family have grown up. The youngest ones are twins and they are almost seventeen. I have got a very good wife, who has backed me one hundred per cent in everything I have done. No I don’t think they have suffered because of my involvement and I absolutely love it.
So what do you think you are most proud of during your time in credit unions up to now?
WG: I am just proud to be part of it quite frankly. I am not sure that there is anything on a personal note that I can take great pride in, apart from the fact that we have evolved quite considerably over the last ten years. I am just quite happy to be part of it.
What about outstanding characters in the movement?
WG: Oh yes. Look each credit union would have its own personality. There have been a lot of parties where a lot of port and a few other things have been drunk. When you talk about some of the characters you talk about Ray Nicholson from the South who is now left it awhile but he is still in the movement and the different jobs that he has got. You know there is Les Anderson. I am talking more the country people than some of the metropolitan people. The one thing that does come back is that if you are going bad they will give you the shirt off their back. There is not a problem. They are all, as I said before, fairly genuine people. Whilst we are all different, I think we are all pretty good mates.
Right. Thank you very much Mr Wal Gillard.
WG: Thanks very much.
End Tape 2A: 4909 Words: 1 hour 50 minutes.