Ben Woods (BW): 0:02
Ben Woods, archivist, Australian Mutuals Archives, interviewing Barry Jackson, 1 April 2025. Barry, where did you grow up, and what is your educational background?

Barry Jackson (BJ): 0:17
I was born in Armidale in New England, New South Wales. And my father had a dairy farm, a small farm just outside of Armidale. He sold the herd when we were young, and we eventually sold that house and the farm in Armidale in 1974 and moved to Queensland, where, because I guess we were flush with money, I had to get a haircut and go to a private school. So I went to Drummond Memorial Public School in Armidale, briefly to Armidale High and then I went to Toowoomba Grammar in Toowoomba, Queensland.

BW: 0:54
What was your first job? I did note that you worked as a bank teller for the Commonwealth Bank before your first job as a pilot. But was that your first job?

BJ: 1:04
It was. Of course, I worked part-time in my dad’s butcher shop while at school. I never got paid in dad’s butcher shop. But anyway, dad was a butcher and I used to work before and after school and on weekends. But my first job was in the Commonwealth Bank in Toowoomba. I deferred university, because, as dad suggested, banking was a job for life. So I joined the bank and deferred university, and it was after 12 months that I started flying lessons and the university was put off until later.

BW: 1:41
Did that job in the bank influence your later involvement in credit unions and was finance an interest?

BJ: 1:50
Look, yeah, the Commonwealth Bank is big. Obviously it’s been privatized now. My father was very old school, and I started an AMP investment portfolio and a Colonial Mutual Life Insurance policy when I was 17, and both of those were mutuals at the time. But, well, I guess to a certain extent I was influnced by the bank. I started an accounting degree, but then flying took over and I didn’t quite finish that at that early age. I’m still studying now, of course, but I’ve always thought that AMP, and ironically, AMP owned 97% of Stanbroke Pastoral Company, which was the company that gave me my first full time flying job mustering cattle in outback Queensland. So I thought to myself, well, you know, AMP is a mutual, one of our biggest, or originally one of the biggest mutuals in this country, and it provided lots of opportunity for people like me.

BW: 2:57
When did you hear about credit unions then?

BJ: 3:03
Well, we’ve always had credit unions. I mean, Heritage Bank was in Toowoomba when I was there. Obviously, now it’s with People’s Choice, but really my biggest involvement was when I joined Qantas in 1987. I joined the credit union then and I’ve been a member ever since.

BW: 3:25
Okay, so you joined Qantas, and how did you become a credit union member? I’m just trying to get an idea of how they recruited members at the time?

BJ: 3:43
On joining Qantas we had basically two to three weeks of introductory initiation of what was required of us and on one of those days, both the Pilots Association and Qantas Staff Credit Union, as it was called in those days, came in and gave us a membership form, and we signed up. It was just about compulsory.

BW: 4:15
And what about doing your banking? Did credit union officers visit the workspace? Did they have payroll deductions?

BJ: 4:33
We had various credit union offices around Sydney Airport. Where we signed on for work, there was a credit union office just across the road. We’ve moved offices but there’s always been a credit union branch around the airport. But, we had one over at engineering, one over at Qantas Freight and in those days I think Qantas Staff Credit Union was pretty innovative. We had automatic telephone banking. We had unsecured loans for up to $50,000, I think we were allowed as pilots. The engineers were loaned money to be able to buy their tools when they first started their apprenticeship. So the credit union was pretty heavily involved in the staff and what was going on. And then, of course, lending for houses and so forth and so on. But, it was a lot of talking to the engineers about what they need and they were given these loans to buy their tools, which, for an apprentice, weren’t cheap. And they wanted the good snap on tools, and not the dud ones. So they needed a reasonable amount of money to start that and we were always, until recent law changes of course, we were given as pilots and as full time employees, we were given a line of credit that we could use through the credit union.

BW: 6:13
And have you taken out any loans with the credit union?

BJ: 6:22
Yes, I have, lots of them. Car loans and the line of credit, of course. That helped with buying a property at some stage. So, yeah, I’ve used them a lot and now that I’m a director, I still know staff from 38 years ago, some of them were working for Qantas at that stage, and they’ve come over to the credit union, so it’s a bit of a family affair, really.

BW: 6:51
Okay. And when did you become a Director? And how did that come about?

BJ: 6:56
I started my directorship in 2016. Colin Adams, who I knew from the Pilots Association, Colin retired and contacted me and told me that he thought it would be a good idea to keep people from Qantas involved in the credit union, and so I put my hand up and had to go in front of the members to get voted in. And I’ve been there ever since. I’ve just started my last term, as we’ve got a 10 year limit now. It will be 12 years. So I’ve got a little over two years to go, and that’s me done.

BW : 7:39
Did I see that you’ve done some study to help with your work as Director or was that done earlier?

BJ: 7:53
Well, I did an aviation degree. Like I said I didn’t finish my accounting degree when I first left school because there was no electronic communication in those days in New Guinea so I didn’t finish that. But I did start and did complete an aviation degree, and I’m seven eighths of the way through a Master’s of Professional Accounting at the moment, because I thought accounting is a subject that I think everyone should have an understanding of. And I’ve taught the kids a lot, but I think getting into Advanced Accounting in a highly complicated world, I think it’s appropriate, and I do enjoy it.

BW: 8:34
Well, that’s hard to argue with. I interviewed Gary Halliday a little while ago. I will get to him again in a minute. But he spoke about some of the interesting ways that credit unions evolved over the years. He mentioned at Qantas Credit Union, the membership percentage of Qantas staff was very high going back, and as you just said it was almost compulsory for staff to join, and that level of membership has dropped as you might expect. It’s a competitive banking world and all that. But Qantas itself, as distinct from the mutual, has got its own finance products that are competing with Qudos. How do you feel about that?

BJ: 9:34
We always had a very close relationship with Qantas and actually the credit union employees were Qantas employees, they were one and the same. Gary would have told you that and that’s somewhat changed, but I think you’ve probably seen that Qantas had a home loan product and that’s through Bendigo Bank. It’s pretty sad that they didn’t come through the credit union. But anyway, we still have frequent flyer products that we market. Qantas frequent flyer products that we market through our credit cards and so forth. But yeah, it was a bit disappointing that Qantas went off with another institution, Bendigo Bank, instead of using the credit union, because we did have a very, very close relationship for years, and probably since privatization, that’s probably a little less so.

BW: 10:31
Ok, and back to Gary. Talking to him was very interesting. He was involved for a long time. And we spoke about the other ways that Qantas Credit Union was a bit different. It was unusual for a credit union in NSW but not so uncommon in Queensland in that it had a different relationship with the peak bodies. Qudos has been with COBA for a long time now but there was a time when it stepped away from the Federal Federation of credit unions and the New South Wales peak body. And Gary spoke about that being mainly to do with negative budgeting that AFCUL [Australian Federation of Credit Unions Ltd] insisted on, that credit unions do their books in a certain way and Gary objected to that. How do you feel about all that? Because some of the credit unions objected to Qantas Credit Union not joining the peak bodies in providing a united front.

BJ: 11:44
Oh look, the reason I love the mutual sector so much is when I was chair, I certainly offered a lot of assistance to the small credit unions. You know there’s little one office credit unions in places like Orange and others and I think it’s an important part of the community and for them to comply with the various APRA requirements takes a lot of effort, takes a lot of resources. So I think that’s the beauty of COBA, I love it because I think that when you get together and talk to other mutuals, you’re actually helping each other. Where I would have thought that in the big four banks, it would almost be guarded conversations, because everyone’s in competition with each other, whereas we’re trying, I think, across the whole community to provide competitive products and give people the opportunity to get their own home or buy a car or whatever they need, but it’s all about the members and making sure the members achieve their dreams, as opposed to the shareholders. So I think that’s the one thing that I’m really excited about with mutuals and Gary would highlight the fact that we are very cooperative. We work with all the other mutuals. Yes, there are a lot of mergers going on behind the scenes, but I think the conversation I hear at Qudos is the same sort of conversation I’ll hear at Bank Australia, or Heritage, or all those other mutuals that are there to help out the community, help out the members, get them to achieve their dreams. I still think it’s that old fashioned mutual concept where you’re there for a reason. You’re there to do good. The one thing I will add is that the ESG [Environmental, Social, and Governance] process, which has obviously been legislated, I think mutuals did that anyway, but we never shouted about it, whereas banks now, of course are flouting their environmental or their social contributions where I think mutuals did that anyway, they did it from the outset. They’re always a valued part of their community and sponsoring sporting teams and all that sort of stuff. I think that whole concept is a natural for mutuals.

BW: 14:19
Yes, that reminds me of Bank Australia who have always been particularly interested in enviromental protection and conservation and have even invested in a parcel of land for conservation that has grown.

BJ: 14:46
I went down there with one of our IT guys, and we spent a couple of nights down there. And there’s a pastoral covenant put on those reserves and there’s over 1700 hectares of land that can’t be used for farming, and it’s returning it to nature. So I think the ESG is in the package there. I mean, those sorts of things are really positive. And that’s the sort of thing that the members, particularly the younger members, expect these days.

BW: 15:27
I’ll get back to some of these things. But that reminds me. You’re on Qudos Bank’s technology committee. What does that involve?

BJ: 15:40
It’s fascinating. Even though I’m 63 I love gadgets. I love new technology. AI, fascinates me, all those sorts of things that we have to be well and truly ahead of. I work with the CIO [Chief Information Officer] and the tech team implementing new lending systems. We’ve just introduced a loan origination system, and that obviously took time, a lot of planning and a lot of testing before we went live with that. I think that’s why we’re looking at this merger, it is because to keep up with the technology, there’s a certain amount of investment that you need to continue to make to keep up with the technology, to keep ahead of the fraudsters, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, the Tech Committee runs through lots of proposals and and puts them up to the board if needed for approval.

BW: 16:54
So do you think that good technology, in terms of APPs [mobile phone applications], cyber security, smooth user interfaces are as important as customer service and interest rates as far as member satisfaction is concerned?

BJ: 17:24
Oh, sure, for sure it is. You know, with the majority, and you look at our digital pathway these days, the digital pathway basically is we just track technology and track what people use. And of course, more and more they’re not going into a branch, although they love going into a branch, they have a chat to the manager or the staff. The amount of usage on our APP has accelerated rapidly over the last few years, probably overtaken the internet, but we still obviously use the internet, but people more and more are just using their mobile phone.

BW: 18:05
Before we get to the merger, were you involved in the change of name?

BJ: 18:19
I was not on the board at the time. At that particular AGM [Annual General Meeting], as is the case with the merger vote, the members had to vote 75% in favour of the name change. Now, not many people know this, but Qantas did approach us about the Qantas branding, and because we were using the [Qantas] kangaroo when Qantas Staff Co-operative Credit Union first started in 1959 which then became Qantas Staff Credit Union, then it became Qantas Credit Union, and then, obviously, in 2016 it became Qudos Bank. But it was more an issue of Qantas objecting to us using their branding. And that’s when the previous board to me, I came onto the board at that AGM, or at the end of that AGM, when the vote was taken to the membership to change names, but it was really thrust upon us by Qantas because they didn’t want us to use their brand. So a lot of people don’t know that, so there was a lot of work done. Again, I wasn’t part of that process, but Qudos Bank was the name that the previous board came up with, and that’s what it has become.

BW: 19:41
The relationship with Qantas is still good, though?

BJ: 19:44
I think so, yeah. We use Qantas payroll. We are transitioning away from that if the merger is successful. Yeah we still deal with Qantas. We’ve obviously got a branch at Mascot in the what’s called the base and that’s the main office for Qantas. So there is no office in the city anymore. So yeah, we have a pretty good relationship with them, but obviosuly it has drifted since they privatised.

BW: 20:25
Do you expect that to continue? You know, post the merger, do you expect the bank to continue to market to Qantas staff and for Qantas to still be a big part of the identity?

BJ: 20:37
It will. It’s the membership who have to make this call for the merger. Bank Australia and Qudos Bank will operate separately for a time, and then the membership will make a call on what happens next. Now, I’m not going to suggest or pre empt anything, but if you use Heritage and People’s Choice as a guide, that bank is now called Heritage and People’s Choice. So those two names have been combined, but yes, I think we will have a huge, big presence in Qantas and marketing to Qantas staff.

BW: 21:20
And why Bank Australia? You probably looked at a number of mutuals why did you go with them for a potential merger?

BJ: 21:34
I knew Judith, the previous Chair of Bank Australia. And yeah, we have spoken to other mutuals, but we liked Bank Australia, their values align with ours. So I think they were the closest fit. And we did have, well when I was Chair we did have an active merger strategy. So we’ve gone out and had a look, and others have approached us. And it was Bank Australia that we chose to go with, because of the concept of a merger of equals with an equal Qudos and Bank Australia representation, and Jen [Jennifer Dalitz] will be the Chair, and Damien Walsh from Bank Australia will be the inaugural CEO.

BW: 22:31
Both brands, lets call them brands, have quite a big public profile, Qudos is famous for the arena and all that sort of thing. Might that change going forward? All mutuals do, but Bank Australia markets particularly strongly on its environmental credentials and maybe markets to a younger demographic. What do you think about that?

BJ: 23:06
Well obviously, a mutual is a mutual, be it Bank Australia or Qudos or combined it is a bigger mutual, but then it will, and we will, and we have in the past, we’ll transition to a better environmental footprint. From the Qudos side, we obviously have got a bit to catch up on compared to Bank Australia. They have certainly been at the forefront of that. Look, I think, provided that we look after our members, we look after and champion the environment and what’s more important to our younger members, then I think the members will take the bank where it needs to go. It’s really up to the members where the merged bank ends up, and it’s through their influence that they’ve got to where they are, and they’ll continue to do that.

BW: 24:07
Yeah, that’s great. Housing is a huge issue right now, obviously. Historically building societies have been at the forefront of helping the average person acquire a home loan and credit unions helped in other ways with loans when people were unable to obtain finance. It’s a different world now, a different regulatory environment but are there any ways that mutuals could assist more with the ‘housing crisis’ if you like, teaming up with community groups or what have you?

BJ: 25:21
We’ve been discussing this for years, because I think our generation have been very fortunate, particularly in places like Sydney and Melbourne, and our children, or that generation, are really struggling to be able to afford a house. So there’s certainly a huge political interest in this and how we get young people into a home, and we’re ready, willing and able to be able to support that, whichever way that works. I mean I’ve got adult kids with HECS debts, and they can afford to buy an investment property. But when it comes to living in there, it’s not like it used to be in my generation, where you could go off and buy a house. So it’s very, very front and centre as part of our discussions. As a board Bank Australia have as one of their pillars, obviously, the environment is the other one, also Indigenous affairs, and also affordable housing. So we will continue on that theme as a merged entity, to be able to, somehow, some way, be able to get the younger generation into home ownership. I think it’s a very important part of our society. So it’s front and centre of what we talk about as a board.

BW: 26:48
Very good. And just linked to that as a final question, how do you see the future of customer owned banking?

BJ: 27:02
My very, very optimistic view is I still think that if Australians are able to look at the value proposition that mutuals provide, I think you’ll find that they are very competitive. We are regulated exactly the same as the big banks, yet we have an emphasis on the membership. Now, I think to answer your question, I think the mutual sector has a huge, huge space for growth in the future, and I hope it does, because it’s really about supporting our members first and foremost, and then all the causes that those members feel need to be supported, but at a competitive rate and I think if people look at it, they will realise that mutuals are competitive.

BW: 28:07
All right, thanks very much.