30 NOVEMBER 1989: TRANSPORT CREDIT UNION: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO HON. PETER COX OF TRANSPORT CREDIT UNION AND NEW SOUTH WALES PARLIAMENT

I am talking to Mr Peter Cox. I will ask you where were you born and when?

PC:       I was born in Bathurst on 4 December 1925, so I have got a birthday coming up soon.

A bit near Christmas too. That is what my wife always says, she has got New Year’s Eve. Did you grow up in Bathurst?

PC:       No I was only there for a matter of a couple of years. My father was a plumber on the Railway. He was friends with Ben Chifley at the time. As a matter of fact Ben Chifley drove my mother to hospital when I was being born. So that is one of my main claims to fame.

Did you know Ben Chifley when you was a kid?

PC:       No I didn’t. But I got to know him when he came down to Auburn when the Lang dispute was on. I got to know Mrs Chifley fairly well. She used to visit a Kathleen Macintosh at Lidcombe, so I met here through Kathleen.

What do you remember of your young time in Auburn was it?

PC:       Well it was Lidcombe. My young days were very happy days. I came from a big family. We didn’t have much but there was a lot of open space where I lived at Lidcombe. It is surprising but there were paddocks and paddocks and we lived near the cemetery. There was lots to do and I had a fairly contented young life.

Now what influences from your father and mother?

PC:       Well I had great influences from both my parents. I can always remember my mother sort of telling me not to judge people, which in those days was very good advice, not to be judgmental. I can’t say that I always took her advice, but as you get a bit older you realise that is pretty good advice. Being honest that was another thing. My father was a lovely man, a real working-class man. He was a great supporter of Jack Lang. He used to take me to street meetings of Jack Lang. He really steered me into politics. I don’t know whether he was sort of doing it deliberately but it was just his influence that sort of got me into politics.

Did he continue to work on the railway?

PC:       Yes he continued to work on the railway until his was fifty-three. He had a heart attack which was brought on by his disabilities from the First World War. He retired then, but he lived until he was seventy-seven. My mother lived to ninety-two. They were both fairly good ages.

Any religious influence in your family?

PC:       Yes. I was brought up a Catholic, but not a bigoted one. I put that down to my mother. My mother was a great woman, no bigotry about my mother. I can remember a cousin of mine in those days, I just mention this story because it has got a bit of a twist to it, but a cousin of mine got married outside the Church and we were all invited and a lot of the relatives didn’t go. But my mother said we would go and we would sing and do everything. I remember my mother, we went in the church and got the hymnals and gave it to us. That boy married and that marriage went on the rocks and he ended up a Catholic priest, a late vocation. That is the bit of a twist to the story. I always remember my mother she was no bigot and that was good.

What was your father’s attitude to the First World War?

PC:       My father went to the First Word War. His attitude was that he voted anti-conscription while he was over there. He voted anti-conscription. He lost his only brother in the First World War and my mother’s father lost three sons and his only brother. So that was enough for one family to suffer in the War. My father cured of war spending four years in France.

What about politics?

PC:       He was essentially a Labor man. Every election whether Labor was poor, indifferent or good it was vote Labor. That is the sort of family that I grew up in.

What was it like round that area at that time? What school did you go to?

PC:       I went to the Marist Brothers at Lidcombe. It was a poor area and it was during the Depression. I can remember going to the nuns there for my primary schooling. The nuns used to make a forty-four gallon drum of pea soup which we all had in the morning. It was good to start the day off like this, there were a lot of poor people. We went to school without any shoes, the class that I was in. If you had a pair of shoes on you were sort of looked on as if you were doing pretty well. That’s the way it was.

Did you run into Dermot Ryan when you were a child, or not?

PC:       Dermot was a few years older than me. Dermot was sort of my eldest brother’s vintage. But I knew Dermot. I knew Dermot by reputation and I had a friendship with Dermot, but that was later on.

He didn’t go to school round there did he? He went to Merrylands or somewhere like that.

PC:       I think he may have gone to Burwood, I am not sure.

I know he was at Parramatta. But I am not sure what convent school he went to, I have never found out. What did you like and dislike at school?

PC:       Well when I think back I didn’t like the big classes at school. I thought to some extent we were taught by people that were just fresh out of college, didn’t have much training. It left a lot to be desired. But still that was the system that was operating at the time.

So what subjects did you like and what subjects did you dislike?

PC:       Well I liked English and I liked the history subjects. I like history. I have always liked history. But I like expression, so I liked English.

Did you do much sport at school?

PC:       Yes I was still playing rugby league football when I was twenty-nine. I don’t know how I kept it up to be quite honest. I played a lot of sport. I played cricket locally, I played football locally and I played A Grade tennis and I played A Grade basketball for a long time. I had a sort of pretty good grounding in sport. I suppose that came from my army days when I got into sport.

So what was your first job?

PC:       My first job was a temporary job in the store at an electric company at Auburn, I think it was English Electric or it might have been AGE. I can remember going there and I can remember going around looking for left-handed spanners and coming home and telling my father who was a tradesman. He promptly sat me down and told me all the things to beware of that they would do to me. So the next day I went in there and I was forewarned and I knew what I would come up against.

How long did you stay there?

PC:       I only stayed there for a short period of time.

Were you involved with the union then?

PC:       No, I was only about sixteen. Then I went to a place called Commercial Steel and Forge. I stayed there for a while, about six months. Then I applied for a job at the Queensland Bank and I got that and at the same time I got an opportunity at the Department of Motor Transport and I went into the Department of Motor Transport. I often wonder what would have happened if I had taken on that job in the Queensland Bank. It is mind-boggling.

So what did you job entail at the Department of Motor Transport?

PC:       Oh well I went through the various stages. It was sort of pretty grinding work at the start. Recording records and filing and all that business.

Did you start recording records?

PC:       Yes. Then I went through and I sort of went up the ladder. My last job was in the Public Vehicles Section on taxis and buses and that.

Now you had already done some military service by that time hadn’t you?

PC:       Yes I tried to enlist when I was seventeen as a matter of fact. I went to join the navy when I was seventeen and they told me to go home to my mother. I got in when I was eighteen and I ended up doing my jungle training course. Then I was referred to the Second Tenth Battalion and I went into action in their last engagement in Borneo at Balipapan. When the Battalion was split up I ended up becoming a docker. So I was on the wharves and that was very interesting. I enjoyed that it was a change. When I came out I went back to the Department.

Not a Painter and Docker, not one of ???????? mob?

PC:       No, this was a non-union job, this was in the army.

A docker in the army?

PC:       Yes it was loading equipment after the War to take the equipment back to Australia.

Did you see service?

PC:       Yes I saw service, I was in the landing of Balipapan.

What was that like?

PC:       It was a great experience. My father always used to say that one day of action was enough. That was enough for me. I had a sort of a feeling and it often comes back to me, that I had been bloodied. I felt I had stood up to it and that was good. I remember sitting around with another little fellow and an older fellow coming up from the Battalion saying, ‘You’ve done well today,’ and I thought, ‘That’s good.’ But still it was a bit fearful.

Did you ever get to talking with Dermot Ryan about his experience at Miln Bay?

PC:       No I didn’t. I didn’t know Dermot was in Miln Bay. That was the first action to defeat the Japanese at Miln Bay. The Battalion that I was in, the Second Tenth Battalion, they played a prominent part at Miln Bay. Of course I was too young to be there. I was in and out of the army before I was twenty-one.

When you came out of the army?

PC:       I went back to the Department. I got interested in the union.

Which union was that?

PC:       That was the Australasian Transport Officers Association. I got into that and I ended up becoming Secretary of that big branch out there. I ended up becoming a delegate to the Labour Council, on the Executive of the Union. By that time I had joined the Labor Party too.

Which branch did you join?

PC:       I joined the Central Lidcombe Branch of the ALP. It wasn’t long before I was Secretary of that branch. Then I became delegate to the various State Councils. I never joined thinking I would have a political career. But there was a Hilton Nagel, whose son is the present member, who had a big impact on me. He got me aside and said, ‘You know you can be a Member of Parliament.’ By that time I was doing a course on public speaking and communication in North Sydney. I was doing very well in that course. The tutor over there sort of took a bit of a shine to me because he liked my approach to public speaking.

Can you remember his name?

PC:       I think it might have been either Peter Ross or Peter Bruce. I have a great deal to thank him for because he sort of knocked the rough edges of me and that was good.

Was he at the Technical College?

PC:       I am not sure.

Or was it the Evening College in those days, as it was called?

PC:       It was evening and day that I used to go to it. It was a private course. They were looking to get it diploma status but they never got it. That is one of the regrets that I have.

It wasn’t Williams was it?

PC:       No it wasn’t Williams.

It wasn’t the Catholic one there?

PC:       No it wasn’t the Catholic one. Anyway it was good training and it stuck to me. Then when I got married I joined the West Auburn Branch of the ALP. At one stage I was Branch Secretary for twelve years. I was Secretary of the State Council for ten years and I was President of the Federal Council. So I had a fairly good apprenticeship.

Was that Lang’s branch?

PC:       No. Jack Lang was in the Auburn Branch. Then I stood for a selection ballot when I was twenty-nine. I had it all won but Jack Caine had other ideas. He went for a chap called Tom Ryan, who was a retired railwayman, who was a grouper and sort of pro-DLP. Two nights before the selection ballot they came out and scrubbed Barellan Branch which was predominantly supporting me. I lost that selection ballot. In one way I think it might have been good because I was only twenty-nine and I think it might have been a bit young in those days to have got into politics.

Did you know Jack Hook in that area? He stood against Jack Lang.

PC:       The name rings a bell.

He stood as a left-wing candidate against Jack Lang’s right-wing candidacy in Auburn. He was the Moulders’ President. Still alive. I recorded him for the Labour Council.

PC:       That would be interesting. I waited nine years. I had talks with Mr Ireland, he said he only wanted nine years I think to get his pension up, make life comfortable. When the nine years came up, I went in to see him and told him I was going to stand against him and he said he was running again. I remember I rang him from the Department and I went in to see him. He met me on the steps of Parliament House flanked by about ten members, as all part of the pressure. He took me into a little interviewing room and told me he would destroy me politically. I said, ‘Well Tom I am going to beat you. There’s not much in it but I will end up beating you.’ I got beaten by one vote in twenty-nine, I won by one vote on this occasion. It went to protest and it went on for three months. But Jim Court from the Bus Union was Chairman of the Committee and he said to me, ‘You will get a fair crack of the whip off me.’ I did too and I won. I had a lot to do with the Bus Union after that. I have very fond memories of Jim Court, I think he was a great fellow a real straight shooter. It wasn’t easy to do what he had to do.

Do you know Noel Kiley and people like that?

PC:       I knew Noel Kiley, lovely man Noel Kiley. A cracker jack fellow.

Col Horan?

PC:       Yes. I knew all of those. They were really great friends of mine.

I have recordings of them. Col Horan is very funny.

PC:       I bet he would be. They were lovely people. Of course I had Transport for eight years, so I came into contact with them for a long while.

Where did the credit union at Lidcombe come into all this? When did that get formed?

PC:       Well that got formed in June 1953. I thank Father Gallagher for that. I was on the Lidcombe Credit Union for twelve months and I clashed with Father Gallagher after that. I was also a Director of the Lidcombe Catholic Workman’s Club, a licensed club in those early licensing days. He wanted to get into the club. That stage the way he was going about it, it was contrary to the liquor laws. We told him but that didn’t sort of worry old Father Gallagher he said he was going in. He tried to win the control of the club ballot. Of course the old fellows started to panic when they found out that he had a ticket. They said, ‘What are we going to do?’ I said, ‘We will run our own ticket.’ So I run the ticket for them and we just won every position. Of course we had an argument and he was going to name people off the pulpit. Then the Bishop came out and sent him away to another parish.

Was there a complaint against him?

PC:       I think there must have been complaints because he sort of took it to the pulpit and was going to name people. He was going name us all the following Sunday but he never got the opportunity.

He was your parish priest was he?

PC:       No he was a curate.

Who was the parish priest?

PC:       Monseigneur Lloyd at the time. Of course he couldn’t handle this young fellow who sort of got the bit in his mouth and just went.

You had arguments with him yourself?

PC:       I had arguments because I had to stand up to him because he would have wrecked the club the way he was going about it. When I left he sort of imprinted this movement in my sort of feelings and mind and so I thought I would get it going in the Department. So I spoke to a few people in the Department about it. Charlie McLoughlan, who has since passed on, he was also from Lidcombe and he had been a Director of the credit union. So he ended up on the first Supervisory Committee. We had a meeting in June 1953. I think there were nine people. Myself and Bill McMahon, Ted Whitehall, Jimmy Wayne, he has since passed on, Arthur Johnson, Len Williams and Jack Barber, Billy Hill and Al Payne.

Where was the meeting?

PC:       It was held in the Department.

Whereabouts in the Department?

PC:       From memory it was in the old records area.

Not down the Butt Room?

PC:       It might have been down the Butt Room. Yes I think it was. When I say the index filing, it was down in the Butt Room. I can remember outlining the credit union, the ideals and philosophy of the credit union.

Incidentally, before you go on to this area completely, a bit about the Antigonish Association. Do you remember Father Gallagher founding the Antigonish Association? Do you remember him talking about it?

PC:       Oh yes, I can remember him. He was a real crusader you know.

Where did he get from? Did he get it before Kevin Yates or after?

PC:       After Kevin Yates. I am sure it was after Kevin Yates yes.

When did you first meet Kevin Yates?

PC:       I have never met Kevin Yates.

When did you first hear him? Did you hear him at all?

PC:       No, but I heard of him.

According to the written material at the present moment, he was sponsored around the place talking about credit unions at the instigation of Father Dr Paddy Ryan.

PC:       This could have been so. My memory of him was that he was an ex-airforce man I think. I knew that he was sort of one of the early ones in the credit union movement, but I never met him.

Did Father John ever talk about the Antigonish people like Father Tomkins and people like that?

PC:       No I didn’t hear him talk about them, but I knew he was very keen on the Antigonish movement. I have got a lot of sympathy with Father John. I got to know him pretty well at the finish and I was very sad when he died.

What about his sister?

PC:       Yes I know his sister Rose, yes. As a matter of fact I have got to write to Rose. I just want to put something down about Father John, just my own thoughts on him.

They are thinking of doing that. I went out there recording them you see. Although I only started them off a little bit I started them thinking about their history.

PC:       I am going to write to her and just put a few thoughts down about Father John. Whilst we clashed we never were bad friends. He used to come in and see me in Parliament and nearly drive me mad. I know he went in to see Jack Renshaw on one occasion, telling Jack that what he was going to do was a mortal sin and Jack said was it worse than adultery. That sort of got old Father going.

Rose Gallagher is still running the credit union at Lidcombe. Now what about Marshall Heissler?

PC:       Yes I knew Marshall well. My mother knew his mother and Marshall and I were great friends.

Did you ever hear about an argument between Dermot Ryan and Father John which nearly came to fisticuffs?

PC:       I heard that there was sort of dispute there on one occasion. I think Dermot invited him if he wanted to to put his dukes up or something. That was around the town for a while.

You heard the story? Who told you the story?

PC:       I don’t know, I just heard it. It might have been Frankie McGlynn who may have told me that.

Well Dermot also used to tell the story. Have you heard the story?

PC:       No I haven’t.

I suppose it is not right to put it on here, but Father John said, ‘I should give you a smack in the mouth,’ and Dermot is supposed to have said, ‘Don’t let the collar stop you.’

PC:       That is sort of what I heard.

Somebody else told me that Father John used to go in for boxing a bit, encourage boxing.

PC:       I am not sure but in his younger days he was a very fine build of a young man. Good-looking. Very sort of tall and upright and a very good-looking young man.

When he was retired to the Little Sisters, did you meet him at that time?

PC:       Yes I did. I always felt sad about Father John because I thought that he had a lot to give. I though his ideas were good. Whatever you can say about the man he was out to help people.

What was his difference of opinion with you?

PC:       Well his difference of opinion with me was trying to sort of take over the Catholic Workman’s Club, the licensed club and go about it in a way that was contrary to liquor laws. The club didn’t want to lose its licence, we had only had it for a few years. But he wouldn’t listen to reason at that time and that is when we parted the ways. That is when I sort of got this idea of having a talk to people in the Department and getting it going.

Can you remember where you had your inaugural meeting?

PC:       Yes I can remember the inaugural meeting. I am trying to think where it was. I can remember it, I can remember the occasion.

What floor would it be on do you think? Was it at lunchtime? What time was it?

PC:       I think it was after work.

So was it round about where you worked?

PC:       I am not really sure where it was now, but it was on the premises there.

Arthur Johnson was there.

PC:       At that meeting there was myself, Bill Hill, Arthur Johnson, Billy McMahon, Ted Whitehall, Noel Payne, Jack Kennerman and Malcolm McNeill. Of course there was Bill Hayes, Jack Barber, Frank Rowe and Charlie McLoughlan, people who had an influence in it. At the first meeting Len Williams was very helpful. Len was a bit older than us. Len ended up one of the Deputy Commissioners. He supported us. It was nice to have someone who was a bit older than us sort of supporting the formation of the thing. Bill Hayes was a tremendous help. Bill Hayes was a Registrar and very well up in the Department. He gave us great support.

Were you ever a member of his investment organisation that he had?

PC:       I think I may have been for a little while.

Do you remember what it was called?

PC:       I was a member of the investment corporation for a while, but I can’t remember what it was called.

Goliath.

PC:       That’s right, Goliath Investments, yes. But apart from that we also formed a company, a few of us, and bought a mixed business at Regents Park. We didn’t make much money but we sold it at a profit. So I suppose when we finished we just about broke even. But it was great experience. We were sort of running out there at weekends cutting sandwiches and doing all sorts of things like that.

What on earth possessed you to go into business?

PC:       Well we sort of thought we would have a series of mixed businesses all over New South Wales, but it didn’t go that way. You have to have a hands-on operation in business, we learnt that pretty quickly. That business is still going. Right opposite the Commonwealth Bank.

You can’t remember exactly where the inaugural meetings of the Transport Credit Union was?

PC:       I am afraid I can’t. I am pretty certain it was on the premises.

Where was the second meeting do you think?

PC:       I think the second meeting was still on the premises.

It was after work, not lunchtimes?

PC:       Yes, but I am not sure where.

You went out after the first meeting to get members? You actually enrolled yourselves as members? For instance you were Chairman straight away wasn’t you? Who mooted this? You are number one member as well.

PC:       Well I think they sort of nominated me as President because I was the one of the ones who sort of got it going.

You had a Supervisory Committee straight away.

PC:       Yes we had a Supervisory Committee. That was Bill Hayes, Jack Barber, Jack was a very big man, Frank Rowe, who was nice, and Charlie McLoughlan who was a friend of mine. So when look back I think we didn’t do a bad job in those early days. I was looking at the notes last night and my wife went through and she said, ‘You know you weren’t too bad. You didn’t run wild. You restricted your loans.’ Twenty pounds I think it was, anything over that had to go before the full Board. We had a Supervisory Committee going. We had a Loan Fund going and insurance and things like that.

Incidentally the insurance, did you set that up straight away?

PC:       No we didn’t set it up straight away, but it came into being.

Whose idea was it?

PC:       I think that may have been Arthur Johnson’s idea.

Incidentally, had Arthur Johnson any backing. I haven’t interviewed him yet, he is still in France. He won’t be back until after Christmas.

PC:       Is he away again? Arthur was a great fellow. They were all terrific people on that first Board. But Arthur was the one that had an accountancy background, which was good. He was the steadying influence to some extent. Noel Payne and Jack Kennerman, Malcolm McNeill and Bill McMahon. Billy Hill. I met Billy Hill some time back he is still around. They were all fellows that had a bit of stability about them.

Who advised you, so to speak, in the setting up as far as the bookkeeping?

PC:       Well we decided to follow the system that was in operation in the Department. The keeping of records. It used to be done all manually. As you paid your registration there was a date put down and you put the amount. We sort of just got a history card.

All hand done?

PC:       All hand done at that stage. Bill Hayes was the one who sort of helped us.

Incidentally, did you have to stand up or sit down when you were doing all this?

PC:       Well it just depended on what sort of job you had. If you had a job standing up, if you were taking payments people might come up to you at work and you would write them a receipt out just standing up.

End Tape 1A: 4816 Words: 1 hour 55 minutes.

30 NOVEMBER 1989: TRANSPORT CREDIT UNION: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO HON. PETER COX

You decided to follow the methods used in the Department in spite of the fact they were so old-fashioned?

PC:       They were the systems of the time. Bill Hayes, who was the Registrar, was very good. Bill sort of helped us set it up. We went along that track for a number of years. It was very much a system where we all had so much to do, I suppose you could call it a darg. The Directors had a number of history cards that they had to sort of look after. That was your job to keep all the records intact. Every so often, at night time, we would stay back and we would go right through the system and see everything was up to date. We might spend a few hours doing that. But we never let it get away from us, which was good.

You didn’t have a darg though?

PC:       We did, we had a number, I just forget now, it may have been A to C or something, the history cards there. A couple of Directors it may have been their responsibility to sort of look after that.

But you didn’t have to do so many entries like you did at the Department, so many entries an hour.

PC:       No we didn’t sort of get on to that.

Do you remember having a darg in you work in the Department?

PC:       Yes I can remember having a darg. You had to do so many, what did they call them, butts. That was a great big pile of receipts.

When you were younger did you get up to any fun and games in the Butt Room?

PC:       I yes we got up to a lot of fun and games down there.

I have heard about this.

PC:       Yes it was a funny place. The old Cutty Sark, the hotel there, we used to take it in turns taking an old billy-can down there to fill it up with beer and bring back. We used to do that.

Where was the Cutty Sark?

PC:       It was right near the hotel where there is a brand new

That was the First and Last wasn’t it?

PC:       First and Last it may have been.

I was an old sailor you know.

PC:       There is an apartment there. The First and Last yes. We used to take it in turns to go down there and fill the billy-can up and bring it back. I am always a bit sympathetic today when I hear of young people and their behaviour. I think we all sort of go through those, it is a part of growing up.

Do you remember if you had any trouble with your first bad debt?

PC:       I vaguely remember. I think we had a problem and I think the fellow left the Department. We may have prosecuted him, I think we prosecuted him. We had a bit of success in that in recoupment. I am not saying we got it all back, but I know we did take prosecution action.

Do you know why the Society’s rules excluded having women in the Society?

PC:       Well I can honestly say when my wife read these notes last night she immediately launched into a tirade about not having women. I had about half an hour’s women’s rights last night as a result of my wife reading this document. I think one of the reasons was that in those days, it seemed to be their role, that they would get into their early twenties and they would get married and they would leave the workforce. I think we were a bit worried that if they had loans, how we would recoup those loans. I think that was our main worry. It certainly wasn’t the reason of excluding women because they were women. I am sure it wasn’t that. It was for that reason. I noticed that we tried to get eighteen year old males included as members for deposits only, but the Registrar knocked that back. But that is the reason, my understanding, why women were excluded for a number of years. It was because of that fact, but that changed. That trend changed. Women became very vital in the workforce.

Another thing I notice mentioned in the various bits of paper work. Do you remember when you started your credit union, which of course was called the Motor Transport in the first place, do you remember that there was going to be another one started, and was started, in the other part of the Department?

PC:       When we became a Department of our own, we went across a group of us and spoke to the Bus people. Now I spoke to Beresford Calverley. We helped them get that credit union. We helped them start that, we founded that credit union on the Bus side.

How long after was that?

PC:       Look I think it may have been about six years.

Did you have some of their people in yours or not?

PC:       No, we didn’t I don’t think.

What this so-called Head Office Credit Union that was around, was that the Bus people?

PC:       Well that most probably may have been the Bus people.

Because that was eventually amalgamated into this one.

PC:       Yes.

But it took a long time.

PC:       Yes it took a long time.

You don’t remember that, do you? Do you remember that or not?

PC:       I can remember of it, but it is pretty vague.

Was there much social interaction between the Bus people and Motor Transport?

PC:       Oh yes. Because a lot of the people in the Motor Transport came from that department, we were a sort of off-shoot from that department. So there was still interaction. They used to drink together.

Because the Department was founded in 1932 with the Co-ordination Act.

PC:       That’s right.

I understand. I followed that up and had to research that for the Bradfield biography I did. I have got all the papers at home on that. So I was aware of that. But what I wasn’t aware of was the various stories. I will be enlightened by people here no doubt, but I thought you might know a bit more about it.

PC:       I can remember going over and talking to them and getting it started.

Just you?

PC:       No I am sure there was Arthur Johnson and I am not sure who else. But I know that Arthur Johnson would have been there.

This was a bit before Stan Arneil was pushing for credit unions wasn’t it?

PC:       Well Stan Arneil sort of came to my knowledge about five years after this credit union was going. But I am not saying that Stan hadn’t been active in credit unions before that. He came out and spoke to us.

The insurance situation, when you set up your own insurance, do you remember whose idea that was? What company you got it from?

PC:       I think it would have been Arthur Johnson’s idea, or Ken Miller.

Did it come from the credit union movement or did it come from outside?

PC:       I think it come from the credit union movement.

So somebody had been reading or something?

PC:       Well they formed a league, the Credit Union League.

Your insurance was long before the League.

PC:       Yes it was long before the League. I think it would have been Arthur Johnson who came up with that idea.

Immediately the League had the insurance you joined that didn’t you. Can you remember when pay-roll deductions were started and how that was achieved?

PC:       Well that was achieved through Bill Walsh. We went and saw Bill Walsh and it was to his credit. I used to clash a fair bit with Bill Walsh because I put Bill in court one day over an issue.

What was the issue?

PC:       The issue was a promotions dispute. I thought a fellow was getting a raw deal so we made a big issue of it. We forced him to give evidence in court which he didn’t find too pleasant. I went to see him and he agreed with it. I gave him top marks for that, because there wasn’t too many in the department who were prepared to sort of go to that extent. I remember Bill Walsh, when I won the selection ballot, he called me up and said, ‘I just want to say this. We have clashed, but you stuck to your guns all the way. Good luck to you.’ I thought that was nice of the man. I had a very high regard for Bill.

So you and who approached Bill Walsh?

PC:       Well I can’t be sure but I think it would have been Arthur Johnson and possibly Noel Payne.

Did you get it straight away? Did he allow it straight away or did you have to negotiate with him?

PC:       No it was a decision that surprised us that he agreed.

Did they want to charge you for doing it?

PC:       I think they wanted to charge us a percentage at first yes.

Did that actually happen or was it dropped?

PC:       I think it may have happened and then it was dropped, but I am not sure. I know there was a percentage.

And you negotiated to have it dropped?

PC:       I think we did, yes. I think the credit union became so good that the department started to put it in their promotions. The facilities that they had for their staff. This is what happened they could see it was a worthwhile organisation. It is funny how people start to take credit for things, but this is what happens in life.

What about office space? Was there trouble about getting office space?

PC:       There was for a long while and then they gave us office space.

What was this about them not wanting you to use the department as an address?

PC:       Oh well they were a bit fearful of people with bad debts and things like that.

Whose attitude was that?

PC:       I think that may have been the Secretary of the Department, Claudie Fuller, he was a very conservative man.

Any relation to the Fuller family down south?

PC:       I don’t think so. Claudie was a real straight-laced sort of a fellow. I think that he would have found having a credit union in the Department a bit obnoxious.

When you got the pay-roll deductions, did this have a great effect?

PC:       Oh yes it just sort of took a load off Directors. It helped because it just went on to bigger and bigger things after that. It sort of made life a lot easier. You didn’t have any worries about debts and things like that. Everything was just taken out for you.

While I think about it, and I don’t want to let it go, Ken Miller when did you first meet him?

PC:       Oh Ken was in the Department and he came on the Board later on. It was marvellous how Ken Miller coming on the Board was another impact. You know people come into organisations at the right time and he came in and he gave it another drive. That is what happened. Then you had the real steady people like Malcolm McNeill, who died just recently. Malcolm retired off the Board the same time as I did after ten years. But he gave it great service and that.

Another credit union character, who of course was not in this credit union but I mentioned before. When did you meet Dermot Ryan? Have you got any remembrance of that?

PC:       Well I met Dermot Ryan, he was in the City Council mixed up in the union there and mixed up in credit unions. I met him at conferences and that.

Did you meet him at Lidcombe?

PC:       I can’t say I did.

He was a Director of Lidcombe Credit Union before he was City Council.

PC:       But after me.

Well I will leave that until it comes up later. Because it does come up later with the League and the taxation business. So I will leave it until we get into that section. So you were the Chairman for the ten years. So 1963 was when Dermot Ryan started the City Council one. You were way ahead of him. You were way ahead of the movement as well. The Registrar of Co-operatives had a credit union, did they have it before you?

PC:       Yes.

Did you ever go and visit it then?

PC:       I can remember going and talking to them.

Whose idea was that?

PC:       I just think we went. I thought it would be a good idea to sort of talk to them.

Did they sort of steer you a bit?

PC:       Yes they helped us. We went round. If we needed advice we went and got advice from people.

Was the Registrar of Co-operatives the first industrial credit union in New South Wales do you know?

PC:       I thought there may have been a Catholic one before.

That is not an industrial credit union, that is either a religious or community one, whichever way you look at it.

PC:       I think that might have been the first industrial one, yes.

Well there actually was a very old one, Savings and Loans. Yours was a Savings and Loans wasn’t it?

PC:       I think the Registrar may have been one of the very first.

There was one in Summerhill before the War. It was called something Sporting Savings and Loans Society, something like that. Summerhill or Hillston Park. There was a Co-operative Bank down in Victoria in the 1890s. But there is no connection I don’t think. Also the public servants down in Victoria had one early on, a Savings and Loans Society. So there were a few things I know. But several people have told me that the Registrar of Co-operatives, their credit union was the first industrial one. I don’t know whether it is true or not.

PC:       Well it would be the first one as far as I know. I don’t know of any before that.

Was there any difference between the way you set yours up and the way they ran theirs? Can you remember?

PC:       No I can’t remember. Well I would think in that era everything would have been manually recorded. You would have had a card with a person’s name on it and how many shares he had. If he had a loan you would have his loan recorded. That was the way it operated. It was all done manually. Computers weren’t in.

That confirms what I was told. I was told that Dermot Ryan and company weren’t very good with the pencils and they went straight down to IBM and they were the first financial institution to computerise. On tapes that was. On punched tapes. But nonetheless they were before the banks and anything according to what I heard.

PC:       Well I think credit unions generally got into computers before the banks did.

But Dermot Ryan and the City Council were the first. I think so. Do you know anything to the contrary?

PC:       No I don’t.

The membership. Now they are talking about membership number thirty-nine in 1959. It must have been very slow growing in the first instance?

PC:       I thought it was faster than that.

Oh no membership thirty-nine of the League in 1959. Now do you remember the events of the formation of the Credit Union League?

PC:       Yes, I can remember a chap named Young coming out. Keith Young. He came out and spoke to the Board about joining the League. There was a fair bit of hesitancy about joining the League. That is fairly natural in organisations. You think you are sort of losing your grip. We had a fair discussion on that but eventually we agreed to join the League. That was a good decision that we made. The formation of the League was simply something that had to be done. It was protection and gave us a bit of clout with government and things like that. I can remember Keith Young coming out and speaking to us.

Were you in those later arguments about the League versus AFCUL and versus Stan Arneil and versus Ken Miller?

PC:       No. I wasn’t. As a matter of fact I never got sort of involved in the League. I had other activities politically and I thought I didn’t have enough time, I just couldn’t do it. Ken Miller became our man in the League. Ken played a pretty forceful role there.

Why did you change the name from a Savings and Loans Co-operative to a Credit Union in 1960?

PC:       I think that was to sort of identify us.

Were you trying to help the Act?

PC:       I think we were advised that it would be preferable to call it a credit union.

Were you aware of the Act being passed? Were you aware of the political side of that?

PC:       I know Father Gallagher was jumping up and down over the Act. I think he felt it didn’t cover the Antigonish movement the way he would like it to be covered.

Didn’t set them apart. Didn’t state that they had any tax exemption. He was fighting that battle. Did you ever hear anything about that did you?

PC:       No not a great deal.

I have documented that. But you weren’t involved and didn’t hear anything. Well he did get his case in the end, but only by setting his Antigonish credit unions apart from the other ones, by making a distinction. Which was rather unfortunate, which was unfortunate for the rest of them. So were you aware of the negotiations that went on in the formation of the Act?

PC:       I was aware that negotiations were taking place.

Do you know who was doing it?

PC:       I think Stan Arneil may have played a part. I can remember Stan Arneil coming out and talking to us. I think Ken Miller may have had a part. I am not sure of anyone else.

So Ken Miller was doing it separately if he had a part. He wasn’t involving the Transport Credit Union? He hadn’t any position on the League at that time.

PC:       Oh well it wouldn’t have been Ken Miller.

So it is still a mystery as to who it was. Maybe it was Les Robinson? Maybe it was Beresford Calverley?

PC:       I am not sure. I am sure you can find that out. I think the Parliamentary Records of Correspondence would clear that up.

Did you have anything to do with the Ministers responsible in your political side. I mean Stefan Stevens. I know he wa son the other side. He wasn’t Labor. Did you have anything to do with him?

PC:       Yes. As a matter of fact my maiden speech was on credit unions. It was largely on credit unions. I sort of made my maiden speech basically on credit unions.

When were you elected to Parliament?

PC:       I was elected on 1 May 1965.

Did you actually resign from the credit union to clear the decks to go into Parliament?

PC:       I did. When I resigned I had won this election ballot. I thought I just had to give it away because at that stage they were telling me that the election would be on. Then everything went bad and Graham Mars business and all of that. It delayed it and delayed it and then of course we got beaten.

Never helps does it. Do you know if the Transport Credit Union, Motor Transport as it was called in those days, was the first credit union in a government department do you know?

PC:       I think it would have been.

The Registrar’s would have been a government department though.

PC:       Yes, but apart from the Registrar we would have been the first one.

I will check it out with State Works, they argue that they were? Public Works. But it is easily checkable isn’t it.

PC:       Easily checkable.

Do you remember the first news sheet, Credit Union Digest, they put out.

PC:       I can remember the Digest. I can’t remember the first one, but I can remember it coming out.

Well that was in your retirement year, 1963 according to his. Ray Rowrey, do you remember him at all?

PC:       I think Ray may have passed on, I am not sure. The made Ray the Publicity Officer. That was very late, that was just when I was ready to get out. He had a bit of flair for publicity Ray and he got it out.

Do you remember the various premises that you had as a credit union? Do you remember the first premises that you had? The first space that you were allocated by the Department?

PC:       That was out at Rosebery.

There wasn’t any space allocated in Phillip Street?

PC:       Not to my knowledge. If we worked back we just sort of grabbed a spot somewhere.

A floating credit union.

PC:       A floating credit union. But then they gave us a spot out at Rosebery.

Did you do part of the books? Did you take them home?

PC:       Yes we would take a pile home and do some recordings and that.

What did your wife say?

PC:       Oh at that stage my wife was a pretty contented sort of a girl. She didn’t worry much about it.

You floated around with this set of books.

PC:       That was the way it sort of operated. It was a fair bit of dedication in it in those early years.

Which building was it, was it that new building, well it would be new then, in Phillip Street which has now been added to the Intercontinental Hotel.

PC:       No, it was the one next to the Intercontinental Hotel.

Well it has been added to it.

PC:       Well that is where it was, in there.

What about up on the roof, did you operate up there at all?

PC:       No not to my knowledge, no.

Do you remember playing cricket up there?

PC:       Remember playing cricket up there and having smokos up there and the RSL.

Did you play sport with the department?

PC:       I played a little bit of football with the Motor Transport side, in the Domain.

What about swimming?

PC:       No I didn’t swim.

Any other activities that went on over there?

PC:       Basketball. I played about eight seasons of basketball.

Where did they play?

PC:       Well I played all over the place. I played out there near the Sydney Cricket Ground, Sydney High is it out there? There was a Dispensary Hall at Homebush on Palmer Road I think it was, we played there.

Were you involved in any of those Dispensaries?

PC:       No.

They were somewhat political in some ways?

PC:       Yes they had political overtones.

I remember there was one that was a memorial to Storey. Probably the last one ever build down by Central Station there.

PC:       No we just sort of played in various venues.

So when you got to Rosebery, you moved to Rosebery with them straight away?

PC:       I negotiated the move for them on the terms and conditions for the staff. I think we got a half day a month off because of the distance problems and that. We cut our lunch down a little bit and they gave us half a day off a month. The shopping day, which was pretty good. It wasn’t a bad agreement in those days to get that. Also I negotiated to get an office for the credit union, which we got.

Do you remember what it was, or what it was like?

PC:       I can remember it was quite a nice office with a counter.

Did it have windows?

PC:       Yes it had windows. Glass windows I think it had.

What about the second one, did that have windows?

PC:       I don’t think so.

So what was it?

PC:       I am not sure now.

Somebody told me it was a strong room.

PC:       I think it may have been an ex-strong room. But bear in mind it was good accommodation after not having any.

But strong rooms don’t have ventilation.

PC:       No, no ventilation. But still it was accommodation. You have got to realise in those days credit unions were just starting off, pioneers.

Did you operate on the counter at lunchtime?

PC:       Yes we did that. Also during the day people would come up and say they wanted to pay a bit off their loan. You would just sort of write a receipt out to them.

What about phoning you at the weekends for a loan?

PC:       Yes they did that.

Did anyone get bailed out?

PC:       I think we did bail out a few people. I know there was some funny events that happened at times that we bailed people out.

Did you ever bail anybody out? Can you remember doing that?

PC:       No, I can’t. I know I can remember ringing people and sort of saying so and so has got a real problem can we help him. I would do a bit of a ring around and fix him up on the Monday or something like that.

Anybody phone you for a car loan or anything like that at the weekend?

PC:       Nothing like that.

You have got a quite membership haven’t you.

PC:       Bear in mind this was early days. I think it took a long while before we got to a five hundred pound loan.

Do you remember why you picked the limit in the first place?

PC:       We picked the limit because we were pretty careful. I can remember we couldn’t get anyone to take a loan.

End Tape 1B: 4420 Words: 1 hour 35 minutes.