8 MAY, 1994: TAS: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO PAUL MORLEY ON TASMANIAN CREDIT UNIONS

What is your full name Mr Morley?

PM:      Paul Derek Morley.

What year were you born?

PM:      1938.

Where abouts?

PM:      In Hobart.

Did you grow up there?

PM:      Yes indeed.

Lived there ever since?

PM:      Ever since. Taswegian by birth and Taswegian by choice.

Where did you go to school?

PM:      I went to Campbell Street Primary School and then to Hobart Tech, which was renamed New Town High. I was out there the first year that it moved to New Town in 1951.

Where did you go from there? What did you do next?

PM:      From there, well I contracted tuberculosis in 1954 and spent thirteen months in hospital. I then came out and completed school by correspondence. Then I went on and did matriculation by correspondence. Unfortunately I failed in matriculation. I only sat for three subjects, physics, chemistry and maths. I passed in physics and chemistry and failed in maths, that is why I am now a qualified accountant. Work that one out.

So where did you go to work first?

PM:      My first job was as a tram conductor.

What year was that?

PM:      Yes I was handling people’s money right from the very start. I was about to be promoted to a bus driver. I had my name down in the Department of the Army in their clerical section in the public service. It seems in those days you might have had to wait six months or nine months before the job came up. It came up and I left the tramways and then went up to work at the barracks for a period of time. From there I went down to the Transport Commission and was there for several years. Then in 1959 I got a job at the Public Service Association, the Tasmanian Public Service Association. Two of the Councillors had gone across to South Australia in 1958 I think it was and came back with this idea of this financial institution that was attached to the Public Service Association over there, that was the South Australian Public Service Savings and Loans. They came back and promoted the idea amongst some interested people and then in 1959 the Tasmanian Public Service Savings and Loans Co-operative Society Limited was formed.

Can you remember who they were, those people who went over to South Australia?

PM:      Yes. One was a Brian Langdale and a Peter Demdem. Peter Demdem then went on to be one of our Foundation Directors, along with Vic Taylor, Ross Maher, Bill Nolan and Sam Webb.

Who were the other ones?

PM:      Vic Taylor, Herbert Victor Lindow Taylor he was the Foundation Chairman. Sam Webb, Victor Samuel Webb. William Dominic Nolan, Bill Nolan, Ross Hewey Maher. They were the five Foundation Directors.

They were the Foundation Directors?

PM:      So the Foundation Directors were Herbert Victor Lindow Taylor, as the Chairman. His wife was the Foundation Secretary too, Muriel. Then they got a couple of part-time Secretaries after I think Mrs Taylor got a job back in the public service. There was a Cec Blakney and a Margaret Redovanovich, early Secretaries.

Do you remember Father Gallagher coming down to Tasmania and starting credit unions?

PM:      Father Ganey or Father Gallagher?

Father Gallagher.

PM:      Father Gallagher no. I came upon the scene in February. I joined the Public Service Association I think in November 1959. I became the Secretary, part-time Secretary of the credit union, or it was a Savings and Loans Society, in February 1961 while I was still employed with the Public Service Association.

Right. Do you remember the ABC Staff Credit Union starting?

PM:      I can remember it being there, yes.

Do you remember if it started before or after yours?

PM:      Well there was always a controversy there. I think they started round about July or August and ours started in November. By the time I became interested in the credit union, which was 1961, they were well and truly established. I think Jack Smith might have been one of their first Chairmen.

The other credit unions which had been started prior to that, in 1958.

PM:      There was one in 1954. There was the Hobart and District.

Well I have 1958 on that.

PM:      Well I think I remember researching it many, many years ago and I thought it was 1958 for the Hobart and District and 1954 for the Glenorchy and District. But that may well be wrong.

Well my reference for this is merely that book, Credit Unions in the South Pacific, which states that in 1958 Father Gallagher went down there on holiday and started seven credit unions. They didn’t lead anywhere any of them. But they did say that the first one was the Hobart and District.

PM:      I think that was 1954 and one of the Foundation members was Guildford Young, who finished up being the Archbishop of Tasmania.

Yes, he was interested in credit unions. That is true because he is mentioned in the Antigonish. How do you spell the Guildford?

PM:      Well I suppose it is G-u-i-l-d-f-o-r-d. One of the leading lights of the Glenorchy and District was Ken Lowrey who became a member of the Legislative Council later on. He is still alive too.

Ken Lowrey?

PM:      Ken Lowrey, L-o-w-r-e-y.

Why didn’t you line him up for me to interview when I was down there?

PM:      I don’t know.

Now, where did that lead for you. Did you become permanent Secretary?

PM:      It sounds very public service, being a Permanent Secretary. Yes I started off doing part-time work for the credit union and still doing my day job with the Public Service Association as a clerk. Then gradually the work started to build up and build up. I think round about 1964 I became full-time Secretary. We used operate out of their offices back behind the public buildings in Davey Street. It was actually off Salamancar Place, that was the actual building.

What about the foundation of the League in 1966.

PM:      1966?

Well I have it down as 1966.

PM:      Well you may be right too. My credit union, because it was the biggest at the time in the State and its dues represented more than 60 per cent of the total, being public servants they decided there wasn’t any value in it for them, so they in fact would not join the League. I wanted to be involved in the League so I then became a member of the Mountsea Credit Union and the Mountsea Credit Union came onto the Board of the early League.

So you went on to Mountsea Credit Union while still being Secretary of the other one.

PM:      Yes, that was the only way I could get involved. I think what might have happened is that my credit union may have joined and then withdrew. At that stage I wanted to stay involved with it because I might have been Secretary or something at the time. I then joined Mountsea.

You became Secretary of the League when it started do you think?

PM:      Not when it started, but sometime afterwards I was involved with it. I can’t quite remember when. I remember the name of the fellows there, that was Don Closs, Ken Wheatley and Gordon Price, Don Smith, Bob Graham. That’s the League from the start. They are the names that spring to mind at the moment.

Is there an ‘e’ on the end of Graham?

PM:      No, I don’t think there is.

You became a Director of the League did you when you joined Mountsea.

PM:      I think I must have done, yes. That’s right. I remember in those days Clossie had been to the World Council a couple of times. He had left I think and it was left to Bob Graham and I. We were both nominated and it had to come to the vote round the table, I being a gentleman voted for Bob Graham expecting him to vote for me and I lost by one vote, so I didn’t go. So at that stage I ceased being a gentleman.

The World Council hadn’t started at that stage. Closs went over in 1967 if I remember.

PM:      I remember he was over there when Humphrey was the Vice-President.

Hubert Humphrey?

PM:      Hubert Humphrey was Vice-President.

Well that was 1967 I think.

PM:      1967 was it.

He was over there in 1967 and I think 1968 as well.

PM:      I know he went several times. I know 1967 was when they had the opening of the Western Samoan Credit Union League Building. I and a party of twenty-five other Australians led by Stanley Arneil went across to Samoa to the opening of the Western Samoan Credit Union League Building. We were billeted in the  homes of people, which was an experience in itself. From there we went across to Fiji and went to where Father Ganey lived and to the Bergengren School which I think was in Suva in those days, too. That was the training school when I was there. In 1967 it was.

That was 1967 was it?

PM:      Definitely 1967, the year of the Tasmanian bushfires.

Well of course that didn’t last very long because if you remember Arneil started to have problems in 1970 to 1972 with the insurance business.

PM:      That’s right. That is where I first met Kevin Bain too. Kevin and I stayed at the same place in Apia. Jack Lange and his wife were there too. They were part of the party. Gordon Nelson from Sydney, who I never ever heard of again after that. About twenty-six of us went, including myself, Don Smith from Tasmania and Vic Taylor my Chairman was there. Three Tasmanians went in that. It is a long time ago now.

So the League?

PM:      Yes, well I am a bit hazy on when the League finished and when the Association started. We had the League, that died.

Why did it die?

PM:      Well lack of commitment I presume. Some people, well there were only about two or three people the Don Closs’s the Ken Wheatley’s, myself, were the only ones who did any work in those days I suppose. It may have died then. I know Closs was a workhorse and so was Ken Wheatley. Ken Wheatley was the editor of what we used to call Tiger Tales, the first credit union newsletter that was issued. It was only a single sheet roneoed coloured page.

I have got a few of the copies of that. Not many. Have you got many?

PM:      I have got some archive stuff down at work which I haven’t been through for donkey’s ages. So I might find something in there as well.

All right. So you don’t know what year the League finished. Do you think it finished before the insurance split, 1970, 1972.

PM:      I know it went for a fair while. I suppose that would be round about the time.

Was it the time that Don Closs dropped out? Or was excluded, or whatever.

PM:      I can’t remember. Probably tied up together with other things.

After Closs, who? He was the League Chairman for a while. So who was next?

PM:      Don Smith. Don Smith from Mountsea, he was the Accountant out at Cadbury’s. He became the President as I recall.

You don’t know what year roughly?

PM:      No, I have got no idea.

He followed Don Closs then. All right. What do you remember next then?

PM:      You had better prompt me a bit.

Well the reason I am calling you is because I have got nothing past 1967, apart from Don Closs’ memory, you know. I have got the book called Credit Unions in the South Pacific which was published in 1969.

PM:      How many credit unions were there in Tassie then? About thirty-one or something.

Lord no. There was thirteen in total.

PM:      Oh well originally there was about thirty-one, came down to about twenty-five I think.

Well this is before it built up to that.

PM:      No I think it was coming down, it wasn’t going up. There was a lot of amalgamations.

No we are talking about the early times, before 1970 you see. It went up during the 1970s didn’t it?

PM:      Well I am trying to remember which ones would have been formed during the 1970s. One’s like Sesame, which was the Cascade Brewery one. The Polish was already there I think.

I can probably look that up, because there is a table in Credit Unions for Australia which is 1985. But it is not really a history, it is a book by Harvey Crapp. Crapp and Skully right. There is a table in there I think which gives the increase in credit unions over the period, but it doesn’t give all the names. Incidentally that is another thing we want out of you, if we can possibly do it we have been on about it for a while, that is getting all the names of all the credit unions and the changes of names from the start. The Register in fact. A copy of the Public Register.

PM:      Of all the names of the credit unions?

Yes, from the start and the date of the times they changed their names.

PM:      Well that was Corporate Affairs.

Yes well I can’t get anywhere through them.

PM:      Well I think I can do something there because Frank Caswell, who used to be the Registrar, is now our Chief Executive. So I can work through Frank. He is also a member of my credit union so I think I can work through him someway or other.

Well the Historical Co-operative is wanting one from Tasmania. We have one from Victoria and one from New South Wales and that is about it.

PM:      In those days, just after I had started with the credit union, I just wanted to find out a bit more so I wrote to every Registry throughout Australia. I got the mailing list from them all. I then wrote to every bloody credit union in Australia and asked them to complete a questionnaire for me and send me all their Annual Reports. Now I think I have still got some of those folders around the place too in my archives somewhere.

Well you know if you are going to chuck them out, chuck them towards the Historical Co-operative.

PM:      I won’t chuck them out, I will chuck them towards you if I am going to do anything with them at all.

Well that is all right. Or you can do the State Library down there, whatever you like. But we do want copies in the Historical Co-operative.

PM:      When you were saying post-Don Closs, I wasn’t sure whether you was talking about when he just finished up from the ABC, which was when?

No, this was a lot later. What I mean is he was cut off at the socks by his own credit union wasn’t he?

PM:      I believe he was in the sense that he may have been spending too much time with the Association or the League. I am not really sure whether there was a sort of that he had some rivals on the Board, whether there were personality clashes. I don’t really know. But I know Tom Moore was the Chairman around about that time of the ABC Credit Union, I think. If you are after names.

Well my immediate problem is writing a brief history of Tasmanian credit unions. I mean brief too. But Tom Moore wouldn’t come into that at the ABC I don’t think. Don Smith would, I think. He was the bloke that you said was the League President after Closs.

PM:      Yes.

So who is the next name that we should have?

PM:      Well then I think round about after that it probably dissolved. I think Gordon Price went in as its first full-time employee. Gordon Price was also from Mountsea, he used to be on the Board of the Mountsea Credit Union. I think he became the first full-time employee of the League, which used to be down in the bottom end of Argyle Street, it used to be there. That was a building that I think was owned by CUNA Mutual. I think they funded that building, if I can remember correctly. That was probably when Stan was there.

Now wait a minute, that might be of interest. You know what happened in 1972? Well it started to happen in 1970 but by 1972 CUNA Mutual was no longer the preferred insurer. Stan had been sacked from CUNA Mutual and there was hell to pay.

PM:      Didn’t Charles Compton come over from America for a while?

He did for a little while, yes. But he was perennially over anyway. Anyway they didn’t have any official insurance. It was individual credit unions after that.

PM:      I think the New South Wales Association then developed its own loan protection.

Well they developed it with MLC and TNG. CIC was already selling it. Then they got a quote from MLC. What happened was they had an arrangement with MLC and TNG, but it didn’t give loan protection it seems. But they were getting big rebates, you see. Now immediately CUNA Mutual came on-stream the rebates were down to 20 per cent of their former size. Since they were relying on this money, they got permission to get other quotes, which they did. They got better quotes immediately. Then Stan started to fight it on the open market, so to speak, so they said, ‘Will you remove him?’.

PM:      Stan of course, I have some clippings from the Red-Tape which was the Public Service Association magazine in New South Wales. Stan had actually had applied for and been granted the job as the Registrar of Credit Societies in New South Wales.

When was this?

PM:      That was in my early days.

You see he was Development Officer at the Registry.

PM:      Then he applied to be Registrar.

There was no way that he would get that. He had been sacked by both governments and the Registry.

PM:      The Association, I remember the Red Tape because Ray lodged an objection.

Ray Ibbertson. Well that is 1964. That was appealed against. He became Development Officer. Sir Charles Moses allowed him leave of absence to go selling credit unions. He got the job as Development Officer for the Registry. That was in 1964. The League objected and in fact he was replaced as President by Don Harvey, who stood against him. Now that was all in one year. Now by the end of the year he had been too vigorous with the overtime. He used to get up about three o’clock in the morning and start the day and sort of start five credit unions and come home at midnight. So he got the ire of the public servants, so he was sacked three times in a row there. By both governments and by the Registrar. This is all in a year. But he started a hundred credit unions at the same time. Anyway the following year he was still starting credit unions, but he was going interstate and doing it. That is his story there. Anyway he gets the job of CUNA Mutual Vice-President and Manager for Australia.

PM:      Also Manly.

That’s right. Now he got in problems with that because of this business of them not being competitive. So he was out again. I don’t know what he did next. After that he was on the Shop Distributive and Allied Credit Union, which went down the tube too. So he had a lot of reverses in his situation. But the early reverses were mainly because he got himself into conflict of interest situation.

PM:      That is nothing to do with the history of Tasmania.

No it isn’t, apart from the fact that I do know he came down there, started that credit union in 1959. What month I don’t know.

PM:      The ABC? I thought it was around about July, August.

Anyway he did come down there that month. He also went to Western Australia and South Australia.

PM:      Queensland?

Yes, he went to Queensland and he did them as well. But he had done that long before. So he got it interstate, all over the place, as far as that is concerned. It was a definite plan on his behalf and he was allowed time off by Sir Charles Moses to go and do this. But now what is the next name we have got with the League or Association?

PM:      Well when the Association was first formed.

You don’t know what year?

PM:      I would need to look that up.

Well I need that really. Could you do that tomorrow?

PM:      I can try and do some of it tomorrow.

Well there is only that. You know the rest don’t you.

PM:      When the Association started?

Yes. I mean who was the first Chairman, for instance? President?

PM:      It was either myself or Digby Ross I am trying to think.

Which credit union would he be?

PM:      EPS. He was also the Official Receiver in Bankruptcy.

All right let us move along. Moving right along. What is the next main thing? Did you have a Savings Protection Fund down there? Voluntary?

PM:      No we didn’t, although we used to throw in money amongst ourselves. I know we helped the Circular Head Credit Union and we helped the one round at Queenstown that went under, what was that one called. I know we did put some money into Circular Head, they were having trouble. We threw money in that year. But don’t ask me what year that is, I can’t remember what year that was, but it was fairly early.

Now did you have an Act at all? A Credit Union Act?

PM:      Yes the Co-operative Industrial Societies Act of 1928.

That is not a Credit Union Act.

PM:      I know. Of course it wasn’t. We were in their with the fish canneries, the rural co-operatives. We could do what we bloody liked.

So you didn’t have a Credit Union Act?

PM:      No, we never did.

Well that was I asked you, did you have a Credit Union Act and you said yes. That is the question I asked you.

PM:      Oh is that what you said. No we never had a Credit Union Act, we had the Co-operative Industrial Societies Act of 1928.

I know that one. I got that our of the Parliamentary Papers.

PM:      So that is where we were. Then we formed a committee. We were working with the Government towards a Credit Union Act and we had almost got to the home straight when the collapse of Campus occurred, Campus Credit Union. That was in 1986. The then Manager of the day shot himself and we found that there was a discrepancy of about $800,000.

Well that is peanuts.

PM:      Well it wasn’t in those days because the credit union was only about $5 million in size.

He hadn’t been salami slicing, he had been using an axe or a chain saw.

PM:      That’s right. Then the Government did some knee jerk reaction then. They wanted us to move a lot faster than what we were so they formed a consultative group to put the Act together. We didn’t get it together. That was Digby Ross and myself on that committee and Tony Amstey. There were three of us on that committee. We almost got it ready when AFIC overtook us. So we had been working on it for a bloody long time. Tony Amstey, who was with the Police, Digby and I who worked on that. We were getting somewhere and each time we seemed to get somewhere we got overtaken by something else. So we never ever got our own Tasmanian Credit Union Act. We nearly got there.

You got involved with AFCUL when?

PM:      I used to be on the National Board.

What year?

PM:      I can’t remember what year it was. The year that Graham Benson was Chairman.

Right, well that is 1970.

PM:      I was involved then. Don Closs and I.

1972, 1972. Dermot was Chief Executive Officer.

PM:      He was indeed.

Were you involved when he got flung?

PM:      What do you mean was I involved? I had nothing to do with it.

I know that. Well you must have been if you were on the Board. Everybody expressed no confidence in him for some reason or other.

PM:      I always did personally. I don’t think I could have been on it at that stage.

I know he was a drunk, but that has got nothing to do with it, he was doing some other things which people didn’t like. Do you know what he was doing?

PM:      No.

I don’t have to tell you, do I.

PM:      Yes, go on tell me.

All right. Well he was lending money across the borders and went into Western Australia and to Victoria without the say-so of the Board. Fairly large amounts. Everybody agrees he did the right thing, except he didn’t keep them informed.

PM:      He did it for the right reasons.

Yes. When they got rid of him they changed the rules so that the Chief Executive Officer was no longer on the Executive.

PM:      That is when Kevin Murray took over.

He was already working there. They changed the rules so that the Executive consisted of the President and the Vice-President and not the Chief Executive. Well of course they didn’t have a Chief Executive for the next seven years. They changed the rules back again for Peter Timmins.

PM:      Well I was on the Board when Peter Timmins was Chief Executive Officer.

So you must have been on the Board for years.

PM:      No. I was on then went off and then came back on again when Timmins was there. I was on the Board there with myself and Digby Ross, for a while, then it was Wayne Smith for a while.

Tape 1A: 4378 Words: 1 hour 40 minutes.

 

8 MAY 1994: TAS: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO PAUL MORLEY

PM:      In those days we used to have two representatives from each State. Two used to be elected to go in those very early days. You were elected by your own State as I recall.

Well you were only delegates. Then they changed the rules in order to become a member of the Board. So that instead of just being delegates you became Board members if you were elected. Now that was after Dermot as well, when that happened. Before what used to happen was that each State would send however many delegates there were entitled to send, according to how many members they had in their credit unions.

PM:      That is the AGM you are talking about. No, I am talking about their Board meetings.

No. But after the AGM they would have the vote as to who would be the Board members. It wasn’t a vote of the membership, it was a vote of the delegates.

PM:      I remember in the early days it used to be almost the President or the Secretary who would be the State representatives. That is back in the early days.

There were three basic changes of rules. I have got them documented.

PM:      Right, OK, I won’t argue with you.

Well shall we put it this way, I haven’t written it out, but I have got the three reports you see. I have them here in my house.

PM:      Well you ask me question and I will see if I can answer them.

Well I asked you if you could remember the retirement through ill-health of Dermot and you don’t remember that.

PM:      I know him going, but I don’t know the reasons why. I know Dermot and Stan never hit it off did they.

Well they did originally.

PM:      They did originally, but they didn’t later on did they.

Well that was only  because of the insurance business again. He and Miller and Robinson were all on one side. They were all on the same side before.

PM:      I think the problem was, didn’t CUNA Mutual have more money than what AFCUL had in those days?

I am sure they did.

PM:      Yes, and I think they were using it too.

Well that was the problem you see. Previous to that the insurance rebates came directly to the Association. A percentage was passed on to AFCUL when it was formed. However, when CUNA Mutual came in they started their own pool which was controlled from America. That is another story. AFCUL had nothing anyway, the used to rely on Sydney Credit Union giving them a bit occasionally to support Dermot, so to speak.

PM:      That Was Jack Coyne and all those.

That’s right. Of course Coyne was President when Dermot was Chief Executive Officer. It was Coyne who had to fire him. He told me about that. But apparently he had lost the confidence of all the Board.

PM:      He wasn’t a very impressive sort of fellow.

What Dermot?

PM:      Yes. Impressive looking.

He was quite a character though wasn’t he?

PM:      Oh yes he was a character.

Incidentally, if you look at the papers, Dermot looks better than he does if you talk about him. Because he was proposing a move to Canberra straight away. I mean everybody says he ran it of this little shop right near where he lived.

PM:      Lidcombe wasn’t it.

Yes. Well he did do that but they didn’t have any money. But he was proposing that they move AFCUL to Canberra. So although it was true that he was running it out of a shop, he wasn’t doing it because he wanted to. It was because he couldn’t do anything else. So if you read about it he was constantly saying, ‘Well look this is a national organisation and it should be run from Canberra.’ So can you remember anything special about AFCUL during that period? You remember Benson as Chairman. Do you remember any of the others. As President?

PM:      Well didn’t Benson take over from Arneil?

Not directly no. It was Arneil, Beresford Calverley, Benson and then Coyne.

PM:      Well I was out of it by the time Coyne got there.

Were you?

PM:      Yes.

You came back in later didn’t you?

PM:      Yes, that’s right. I came back in later on.

So we have got a big gap here between then and your Legislative Committee period.

PM:      Well I presume we formed other credit unions, or they had other credit unions formed down here. I am not sure when the Hobart City Council one was formed, or when Sesame was formed. Or when Accrue, which is one up the north-west coast, was formed. I suppose they were all formed in that period. Then after that Risdon absorbed a few and then Risdon and Claremont combined together. Mountsea, which was Cadbury’s, Cadbury’s which came from the name ‘By mountain and sea,’ which used to be the slogan of Cadbury’s. We were overshadowed by Mount Wellington and on the banks of the River Derwent, so it was called ‘By mountain and sea,’ and that is where Mountsea got its name from.

Who made that up?

PM:      I don’t know, but somebody must have worked at Cadbury’s. Then Cadbury’s and Risdon, which was the zinc works, they then merged together to become the Credit Union of Tasmania. They absorbed PKIU and a few other credit unions.

So you had a period of amalgamations. What decade is that? Before that, elsewhere, there was a period of industrial credit unions becoming community credit unions. Did that happen in Tasmania or not?

PM:      No. Well yes. When Risdon became the Credit Union of Tasmania it certainly became community.

So it was later. Was anybody doing deficit budgeting and getting themselves into trouble down there?

PM:      That used to be what AFCUL used to preach in those days, the deficit budgeting which was great stuff. But no body got into real trouble down here.

That’s good. So you have all been good boys down there.

PM:      We always have been and of course when somebody did get into trouble, we always threw the money in. Really we can say without fear of contradiction that no member of any credit union in Tasmania has ever lost any money. That is quite true.

So you all put in.

PM:      We all put in that’s right. Some we lost, were a right-off.

Did you lend them the money or did you give it to them?

PM:      It was a sort of a loan which depended on how it went as to whether we got any back or not. It usually led to a merger down the track anyway.

So it was forced amalgamations?

PM:      Yes forced amalgamations. But we controlled them.

We?

PM:      We being the credit unions.

So we being exactly who then? The Association? The League?

PM:      I suppose so.

Credit unions, were there a number that weren’t in the League or the Association?

PM:      There were some from time to time. Like my own, from time to time. Teachers’ weren’t in for quite some time as well.

But they still all stumped in regardless if somebody was in trouble?

PM:      Yes, I believe we all did that. We always have done that.

That is interesting. That is interesting on its own.

PM:      Well that is what was always done. I remember when Campus went down, although we had a liquidity backstop from AFCUL, we had a round Australia telephone hook-up from our computer room back in 1986, 1987, but we threw in the money ourselves. Then the three largest credit unions then bid for Campus and the Board of Campus then decided which of the three credit unions, being Teachers’ Island State and Savings and Loans, they would go to. They eventually came to Savings and Loans. So that credit union absorbed the staff. The other credit unions then waited for us to pay them back, which we did eventually. That is the way we have acted with other ones as well down here. We have all put money in.

So what about the amalgamation of AFCUL in Tasmania and Victoria? Were you involved in that?

PM:      The amalgamation?

Before CUSCAL happened. AFCUL Tasmania sort of ceased to exist and was represented from Victoria.

PM:      By whom?

Well whoever was over there. But Paul Ford later on.

PM:      That was much later on. Well that was just prior to CUSCAL.

That’s right. So how did all that happen?

PM:      Buggered if I know.

It wasn’t anything to do with you?

PM:      No, nothing to do with me.

Were you a State Manager for AFCUL at any time?

PM:      No.

Were you a State representative for AFCUL. No you didn’t have one. I remember how it was. The Association was a member of AFCUL.

PM:      That’s right and I was Secretary of the Association for a while. I am being very disjointed here because I can’t really remember the dates. I need to do some research myself on that and give it to you, before you interview me for myself.

I have just interviewed you for yourself.

PM:      No you haven’t. There is a lot I haven’t told you yet.

All right. So were you involved in Project Renewal?

PM:      When you say involved?

Well were you on any of the committees?

PM:      I was up at that Coogee Planning Conference. I was there at the time. Five minutes to midnight. Five minutes to Doomsday that Queensland fellow said, from Beaudesert. I was there at that Planning Conference. I wasn’t on any other committee though.

What about once CUSCAL was established, were you involved in that?

PM:      No, Greg Kent was a representative. He was the Tasmanian on the Board, let’s put it that way.

Who followed you on the AFCUL Board?

PM:      Wayne Smith I think. Then Greg Kent I think. Wayne Smith and I were on it together, I remember that, then Greg Kent after that. Digby Ross was on it for a little while, but I think that was before I think. For a while I had Greg Dodd, who was the General Manager of Credit Union Tasmania, he was on the Board with me for a year or so, about a year I think. Then he left the credit union and Garth Willmot became General Manager of CEA, when they merged. Greg Kent then was on the Board of AFCUL and then he was elected to the Board of CUSCAL. He is now on the Board of CUSCAL. You should talk to him, he can give you a bit of background. He may be able to fill in these gaps even better than what I can.

So until the AFIC legislation came up you never had any credit union legislation in Tasmania?

PM:      No, we were working towards it but we were still using the Co-operative Industrial Societies Act of 1928. Of course the fact that we were doing the right thing was a Godsend to us because we never had any restrictions at all. We could do what we liked, but we did it responsibly.

So who did your legislation. Did Graham Loughlin come down or did you do all the legislation yourself? Or did you have other people do it for you?

PM:      Well most of it we did ourselves. There was an old AFCUL model Bill. I know it had a blue cover on it.

That was 1967.

PM:      Really? Well we started with that. We had been doing it for bloody years and years you know.

It used to be know as Uniform Credit Union Legislation. It was based on an American one.

PM:      We were working towards it, but we weren’t ever in any hurry to get it.

What about your prudential rules? Was Corporate Affairs fairly well on you? Did they lay down standards for reserves and things like that?

PM:      No, not in those days they didn’t.

But you followed the general trend in building up reserves in Tasmania?

PM:      Well my Board were all public servants, especially Sam Webb and Vic Taylor were very strong on reserves. We built up our reserves very early in the piece.

You know back in the 1960s they used to talk about 2 per cent being a lot.

PM:      2 per cent, yes. They used to have the 60:30:10 rule too. I can’t say we abided by that for very long. 60 per cent back to the member, 30 per cent for expenses and 10 per cent for profit. But it didn’t always work out that way.

Then there was the other mob who used to make sure that they rebated whatever there was profit to the members each year.

PM:      We used to give bonuses on our shares once too. God, ridiculous nonsense.

What is ridiculous about that? What about the principles?

PM:      On $5. Every bugger who had $5 got something like $25.

That is co-operative credit unions for you. That was the big problem with the co-operative wholesale societies, the fact that they wouldn’t build up a proper reserve so they could change when they needed to change. They used to pay everything back to the members every year and end up with nothing.

PM:      Well I don’t think my credit union ever gave a rebate of loans back to members. It was always put into reserves.

So you didn’t get any assistance from Graham Loughlin.

PM:      Oh Loughlin came down once wearing his Russian overcoat and his Russian hat.

Did he bring his lawyer with him?

PM:      No. I remember Ray Groom, I think, was Attorney-General at the time, who is our current President. Of course Loughlin came in there the day that we closed the doors at Campus. We closed them for a day or a couple of days. Loughie was coming down trying to pressure the Government to bring in the legislation. Ray Groom told him we had been doing it for the last bloody twenty years and it was about time we got to the end of it. That rather took the wind out of Loughie’s sails because he said he was starting off something new. But it was only a continuation of what we had been trying to do for twenty years. That is the only time Loughie came down. We used to work off, as I say, that AFCUL model. We started with that originally and then slowly went through it and changed it the way we wanted it. It was coming up to being a pretty good Act really, Bill, as far as we were concerned.

So is there anything more?

PM:      Well I am not sure where you are.

Well if we are not up to date it is too bad.

PM:      Well what other things do you want to know about?

Well I am after the salient points that I am going to have to drag out. I haven’t got any dates. I haven’t got a date for the Association. I haven’t got any dates of your various Presidencies.

PM:      No, I can’t remember those at all. I don’t seem to keep a record of those.

Well from the AFCUL angle I have a set of Annual Meeting Minutes here, but only between 1966 and 1982, I think.

PM:      What you really need from us, I suppose, is if we can find a set of the Minutes of the League and the Association. Have you got any of those?

No, nothing of yours. Nothing on Tasmania. Haven’t got any of your legislation. Mind you it didn’t have any legislation so there is nothing there. It came under Corporate Affairs all the time.

PM:      We had two Acts. We had the Co-operative Industrial Societies Act 1928 and the Lending and Money Act 1915. They are the only two Acts we worked under. So the youngest was forty years and the oldest was fifty years old. They were the Acts we were working under. It didn’t worry us though.

Do you know anything about building societies down there?

PM:      They had their Act. Theirs was the 1898 Act. So they were a bit older than us.

Well I have got news for you, they had building societies back down there since the 1850s.

PM:      Oh yes, but the last Act that they were working under was the Building Societies Act of 1898. They must have had one before that. They are about one hundred and sixty years old now down here, the ones that are left.

How many are there left?

PM:      One.

The oldest one I think is the Illawarra, still going you know. Illawarra Mutual. The others have all sort of converted themselves to banks or whatever.

PM:      Paul Jack.

The only one in Western Australia has become a bank, the Challenge Bank. The early one in Queensland has become a bank several years ago. As a matter of fact they have just started up a building society for themselves to manage. Nobody has decided whether that is legal yet, but they are doing it. They have done it anyway.

PM:      There are two names I am trying to remember from the early days back on the Board, there was a Bill Kildea from Western Australia and a fellow from South Australia who is the same name as the fellow who is on the Board now in New South Wales, Terry Fitzgerald. There used to be a Terry Fitzgerald in South Australia who used to work for Coca Cola.

I know Bill Kildea. Fitzgerald there is T P and T F. He is dead isn’t he? He was T P Fitzgerald. He wrote the article in Credit Unions in the South Pacific in 1967. T P Fitzgerald, he didn’t mention anybody’s name. Now T F Fitzgerald is Terry who is the Manager of Prospect. He is Vice-President.

PM:      Well see if you can fill in what you can for AFIC and I will do a bit of digging around in the next couple of weeks.

Two weeks is too late for this job. It is not too late in the long run.

PM:      Not in the long run it is not and at the moment you can probably pad it together and say how good we are down here.

Well I was waiting for you, you are the last one. I am now going to go push, push, push. It is a history of credit unions and building societies in Australia in twenty pages or less.

PM:      Well that is what I mean, you won’t be saying much anyway will you.

No, but it was still worth doing.

PM:      I know that we had about twenty-five at least and we have fallen away to eight now.

Well of course in New South Wales at one time there were four hundred.

PM:      That’s right there were.

Stan Arneil. Whenever one or two come together they shall form a credit union.

PM:      That’s right, twenty-five people or more wasn’t it.

He used to say they were too big if they were more than that. Incidentally this business of numbers of people in credit unions is starting again. But not as credit unions. In amongst the lawyers and bankers and people like that they are starting little companies. They have got say twenty to thirty members in these private companies and they are behaving exactly like credit unions. What they are doing is using it as a tax dodge for the benefit of their children.

PM:      Oh right. Using the mutuality clause.

That is what they are doing.

PM:      No doubt about them. As long as they don’t call them credit unions.

Not they’re not, they are not calling them credit unions. But the person who started doing it was a Foundation Director of Transport Credit Union. He is now a Solicitor’s Clerk. That is how come all this business started up. They are not calling them credit unions but they virtually are. They have got millions and millions of dollars in the kitty and they have only got sort of twenty or thirty members.

PM:      Paying very little tax. Depositing to themselves and lending to themselves.

They are not lending to themselves. I believe they are building up this for the future. They put themselves in and they put their children in as members. I take it that the elders are putting the money in and the young ones are taking it out. I think that the interest they would be paying would be fairly low. I think that the tax those people would be paying would be very little.

PM:      That is avoiding Gift Tax and everything else.

Well I don’t know what it is doing, but I have observed this phenomena. I don’t say there are many outfits doing it. There would probably be quite a few million dollars involved, but I don’t think there is many of them, maybe four or five at the present moment. But I did see the Annual Report of one of them and I think it had forty-six members and it $18 million in assets. Interesting.

PM:      All right then. I will do some digging anyway.

Wait a minute, what about AICUM? When did you become involved in AICUM?

PM:      I became involved the year it became AICUM that was what sixteen years ago now I think.

Yes.

PM:      I wasn’t a Foundation Board Member, I came in after Ian Smythe resigned to go up north, I think he went somewhere or other. I then was elected and I have been there ever since. I have been there for sixteen years now I reckon, fifteen years at least.

You have got an ICUD down in Tasmania have you?

PM:      Yes. We have. The Secretary is one of my Board members, Lindsay Jones. The President was Stuart Slade. Who is the President now? I know it only changed hands not to long ago. But Lindsay Jones is still Secretary.

Incidentally, Graham Humphreys is National President of AICUM, isn’t he? So what is John McIntyre?

PM:      He is like I am. Well he is Vice-President of AICUM. I used to be the National Secretary, but then we employed an Executive Officer. I was Treasurer for a few years too.

Were you. Were you in CUES before you went into AICUM?

PM:      No, I wasn’t.

Were you in the Australian Institute of Management before you were in AICUM?

PM:      AIM, no I think I joined AIM afterwards.

You realise that the two bodies joined up and became AICUM don’t you?

PM:      No they didn’t.

Well not the whole of AIM, but part of AIM which was run by John McIntyre. See Australian CUES was run by Lloyd Hawkins.

PM:      Yes, Lloyd was the President and he expected to be elected President. But Graham Humphreys was elected President and Lloyd was Vice-President.

I had an interesting interview with Lloyd. I had an interesting interview with Harold Marsh too.

PM:      Oh yes. That was quite a invidious position that Lloyd finished up in. Where his former boss became one of his Directors and his wife was still working there.

That’s right. So he arranged for her to be removed and didn’t like that. Anyway they both put their case absolutely straight, which is rather good because it very rarely happens. Usually what happens is one side will put their case and the other side won’t want to know. But it didn’t happen. The only one that decline, or went into hiding was Garth Furness. Of course Miles Ferricks has already gone down in New South Wales, he went to gaol.

PM:      Well he is out again now.

We had some interesting defalcations in Sydney too. The Sydney County Council one there, the Foundation Treasurer went in. $260,000 was the amount. He went to gaol and the insurance company got the money back of him and his wife, but he was still laughing when he came out of gaol.

PM:      Who was that?

That was Keith Davidson.

PM:      There was another big defalcation with the old Postal one in New South Wales too wasn’t there. What was his name. Denton. David Denton wasn’t it?

Don’t know. Don’t know of him. Well that was the one that became Communication.

PM:      That’s right and then became Endeavour.

I have got to go and see him by the way, Alex Sala. He sort of hung around last time we were up in Albury. So I said I would call on him when I had finished being operated on. I will do that. All right I will leave you be.

PM:      I will catch up with you again.

If you could give me a few dates it would be helpful.

PM:      I will do a bit of researching and try and get it with you before I go. I am going away for three months in July.

You also mentioned that you had a history of your own credit union, which the Co-operative doesn’t have.

PM:      Yes, I have got a history of my own credit union.

Perhaps you can send one to Tom?

PM:      Yes. I just have to change the fly leaf because I haven’t acknowledged the person who did it ye.

Who done it?

PM:      It was Allison Alexander. She did the history of the meat works as well and the history of the Glenorchy City Council. So we have got to do the history of the Savings and Loans.

The interesting one to come out next year, which is already done ready, that is the Fiftieth Anniversary of Greater Newcastle, the first credit union to be fifty in Australia. The original one isn’t around still. But it wouldn’t have been any older because 1945 was the first year. Unless we can resurrect the Bank of Victoria, the Co-operative Bank of Victoria which was founded in 1905 and was last seen in the 1960s. But it didn’t end, so it might be going in the background there somewhere. It was never deregistered, so it might be going quietly in the back there you see.

PM:      You have done Leon Magree in Victoria.

I have recorded him yes. You were the only one that dodged me.

PM:      Right I will give it to you.

You have already given it to me.

PM:      Part of it. This is over thirty years you know, more than thirty years now.

End Tape 1B: 4429 Words: 1 hour 50 minutes.