25 SEPTEMBER 1991: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO MUNRO CUTMORE
I will ask you Mr Cutmore, where were you born and when?
MC: 19 September 1928 in Pomona, Queensland.
Did you grow up around there?
MC: No. This was Depression years and my father had to move on to other areas. But always lived in Queensland.
Where did you grow up?
MC: Until I was fourteen in rural areas within one hundred mile of Brisbane. I moved to Brisbane in 1943 at the age of fourteen and lived in Brisbane ever since.
Where did you go to school?
MC: I went to some primary schools in the country and finished schooling at a small country school outside of Kilcoy, which is eighty-five mile from Brisbane, at Grade 7 primary. There wasn’t a high school within eighty-odd mile of that. That was Brisbane.
Did you like school?
MC: Yes I did. I did quite well at school. But the limitations in one-teacher schools, never gave me an opportunity really to show any potential I suppose to do anything better academically. In rural areas your first thought was to get a job and get out and earn some money. In those economic times my father was working in a saw-mill and he was on about five pound ten shillings a week I think at the time. Things weren’t good in those early war years even, when I left school. In 1942 I left school.
So what sort of influence did you get from your father do you think?
MC: Mainly a Christian background. Thrift yes, to some degree, because he was a victim of the big crash in 1929. He was a self-employed man in those days and he walked away penniless and never made a recovery. He worked as an employee for the rest of his life and was so shattered by it I don’t think he ever had the capacity to ever get back on top again.
That affected you?
MC: Yes. This conservatism in keeping your money. Make sure that you have always got something for the rainy day. Don’t venture out. Don’t over-expend. Don’t go into debt.
What sort of influence do you think you got from your mother?
MC: Again a Christian background. Mum was not a dominant person in the partnership, but a very caring and loving role. In turn I have looked after her over the last ten years, when she was in a nursing home, she died last October at age ninety.
So what was your first job?
MC: I worked firstly, at the age of fourteen, for the United States Army*Air Force in Brisbane. By the age of seventeen, and this was in 1946 just after the cessation of World War Two, I was a supervisor and took a team of people to Okinawa to an air base there and I spent six months there. I later came back to Australia and again I went overseas to the Island of Guam for another eight months working for the United States Air Force as a technical inspector. From there on in I went into retailing. From my experience with the United States Army*Air Force I was suitable as an employee for the Department of Civil Aviation, which was just being established at Eagle Farm Airport, prior to that Brisbane Airport was at Archerfield. So the Department of Civil Aviation acquired a lot of the stores from the United States Army*Air Force and really in 1948 I moved back into the same building I had been employed in since 1943.
Selling the same stuff by the sound of it.
MC: Virtually that. Handling the same type of materials.
What sort of business had your father been in, before the Depression?
MC: He was in timber. Came off a wheat farm outside of Warwick and with five other young chaps decided to get away from the farm because the farm would not stand so many young people coming through because of the size of the properties. So five of these young chaps set off and they established themselves outside of Pomona in saw-milling. Knew nothing about it whatsoever. Took on a couple of old hardy-heads who had been in the timber industry and formed themselves into a company. Continued in saw-milling and trucking with sawn timber until 1929 when the Depression came. They walked away and left everything.
He did get work, but was there much wandering around when you were a child in the Depression?
MC: He shifted from job to job. He tried his hand at fishing, as a professional fisherman, because his brother-in-law sold him on the idea that he could make a go of fishing. That wasn’t his scene at all. He walked away from that again, went into saw-milling as an employee and remained in that area of work excepting for the period of World War Two. He wasn’t in good health early in 1942, he left the saw-milling industry and he joined the United States Army*Air Force until about 1946. After that he went back into saw-milling. He remained in saw-milling until he was retrenched when he was sixty-one, sixty-two years of age. Denied long-service leave on the basis that he had had a broken wrist during his ten year period and they deducted that. So he walked away with no long-service leave after being with the firm for ten years. But they re-employed him on a casual basis later on.
When you went to work, what exactly was your job? Were you a storeman, or what?
MC: A storeman. I guess it was my parents’ influence that I was the real stable type of young boy who saw himself as not to be seen and heard amongst adults and two young for kiddies. So that period of adolescence was one where you did as you were told, you applied yourself, you carried yourself in a manner that you weren’t going to show any discredit to your parents. You wanted to make yourself something better in life than you had experienced and you saw your parents had experienced.
How did you first hear about credit unions?
MC: Through William Macdonald the founder of Christian Credit Union.
When?
MC: This would have been in the early 1950s.
So it had been founded a few years by that time?
MC: Yes. I was single. Lived in Herston, where the credit union was. I had not a strong church background because in the rural areas where we lived, most places, there wasn’t even a church. You may have a visiting clergyman on a monthly, two monthly basis. So it wasn’t until I was about twenty years of age that I took it upon myself to become a regular communicant again in the Anglican Church, it was the Church of England in those days. So in establishing myself at the Church of England in Herston, William Macdonald was a pillar of that church. He spoke to me and gave me pamphlets and leaflets when I was about twenty-one, twenty-two years of age.
Did he write these pamphlets or did he get them from somewhere else?
MC: He wrote some himself and he had access to other material. He wrote to different organisations in other parts of the world. My understanding was that he had studied the Douglas Credit System in Alberta and I believe that he had something from German credit unions of that era as well. I think he was motivated to establish this credit union from a prior organisation that he established within the church, and I refer to the Holy Trinity Property Redemption Fund, which was a church-based bank. He was the originator of that.
Where did he get the information to start that?
MC: Well again through this idea of getting people to co-operate to harness their financial resources to help out the church property debt. The Church had acquired a property in Herston, a house, which was then used as a chapel and hall primarily for the nursing staff at Royal Brisbane Hospital. The Church found that after two years instead of having the principal reduced they couldn’t even keep up with the interest bill. So hence, this parish bank was established by the late William Macdonald. I will give you a copy of this. That was the forerunner. That came in in the late 1930s. That solved all the problems of church finances and has done up to the present day in that particular parish. He had this vision then that if people were prepared to lend their money interest-free to their church, maybe if they co-operated as individuals they could do something in a co-operative sense for the people.
Was that interest-free loans that you had in the credit union when it was founded? When you know about it?
MC: Yes. Always interest-free. There were administrative charges that had to be met, because you just can’t run it on fresh air. But they were very minimal charges that were made.
What membership number were you?
MC: I was number eighty-four. We didn’t at that point of time re-allocate numbers of past members. We do that now.
How many members are there now?
MC: Approximately seventy-two. We had our AGM on Monday night of this week.
I wish you had told me. I would have loved to have come along and recorded it. I had a day off.
MC: Did you. Well I brought you along a copy of the Financial Report and the Report to the Members and the Social Report, and everything that went on on the night, excepting the election of the officers for the next financial year.
I will take that back to the Historical Co-operative and leave a copy here if that is all right with you. So when you first came across the credit union, you were attending that church were you? It was in a house was it?
MC: It was in a hall. The church wasn’t built on that site until 1961. It was financed by this Holy Trinity Property Redemption Fund. Just to clarify the point, St Luke’s Hall at Herston, which doubled as a hall and a chapel, was a daughter church in the Parish of Holy Trinity, Fortitude Valley. That explains that.
It didn’t have a Minister?
MC: The Minister visited each Sunday from Holy Trinity. There were two services conducted there every Sunday. In early days the majority of the congregation were nurses from the Royal Brisbane Hospital. Of course later on they got their own chapel and they were allowed to live-out, so they didn’t have that same need there. In 1961, there was a nice brick church established there on the same site as the hall. The hall still exists there. That property was built and paid for, debt-free, because of this parish savings scheme, the Holy Trinity Property Redemption Fund.
Now William Macdonald, you think that he corresponded with the Canadians. Do you know if he corresponded with the Catholics, the Antigonish Movement in Canada?
MC: No, I am not aware of that. I have tried to find that out from his grandson who was a very small boy at the time of the creation of this credit union. William Macdonald’s property at 53 Butterfield Street Herston had suffered from about four floods in Brisbane, I suppose the one that comes to mind is the 1974 flood, for which I would have helped retrieve safes and all the books and documents and what have you to put them on higher ground. So a lot of the earlier records went by in the floods, if it wasn’t under lock and key in the office.
Do you ever remember him mentioning the Caisse Populaire, the Desjardins credit unions?
MC: No he never got into any detail of where he got his information. I am aware that he did correspond with the movements that were going on in other parts of the world though.
Did you ever see any overseas magazines like The Bridge, which is the American one?
MC: No. Any publications were all roneoed type that he presented himself. I don’t know whether because it was this Christian approach to it that he always had the idea that it was slightly different to the commercial type of credit union. This was something that Christian people banding together should do for themselves. There were some pretty tight restrictions on membership.
What were the restrictions on membership?
MC: Well just to quote you two from the Rule that even applied in 1967, that ‘such person of good moral character, honest and industrious and shall give a written undertaking not to lend money at interest’, and, ‘such person can produce written evidence of that person’s financial membership of some branch of the Christian church’. Thirdly we had that the person must be nominated by a member of Christian Credit Union, a current member. So you just can’t come along, knock on the door and say, ‘I wish to be a member’. So you see with those restrictions this is why the organisation has never grown to any great extent, because of those particular rules of membership. William Macdonald tried very hard, and a later Rector who is now a retired Bishop, Bishop Ralph Wicks who is a great promoter of our scheme, tried to introduce it into other parishes, who had heard about it and thought it was a great idea. But the point about not receiving any return on capital investment was always the sticking point. They could not see that the savings on the borrowings would far out-weight the dividend on the investment. So as a consequence, whilst they tried to promote it those two men, to my knowledge it has never succeeded. It never got a start in any other parish. That was always the idea, to put it into parishes, to let them run their own credit unions. But unfortunately, because of these restrictions and frailties of human beings they could not see what was in it for ‘me’ if I don’t want to borrow from it, if I want to invest in it. If I have got to help my fellow Christian who is less fortunate than I, I still want a return on the money that I invest.
They couldn’t see that it would be a method of saving which would help themselves in the long run as well as everybody else?
MC: No, that was a fact of life, they couldn’t see it.
In actual fact it is a way for saving for the things you want and borrowing later. Rather than borrowing now and paying later.
MC: Yes. Well even in those early days, whilst finance companies were not like they are today, you could still go along to Whitfields, or some firm like that, and get a money order and you were paying a healthy interest on your borrowings even then.
First I should ask you about William Macdonald. What did you know of his background?
MC: William Macdonald was a blacksmith. He operated his own business from the early 1930s in the suburb of Newstead in Brisbane and later transferred his business to 53 Butterfield Street, Herston. He was a very Christian person. He aimed to help the community at large, but more importantly in those Depression years those young Anglican boys who had no future at all. He employed them in his factory and gave them a job which, as far as he was concerned, they could stay in until they retired. One or two actually did stay there.
What did he produce in his factory?
MC: He was an inventive chap and one of the patents that he came up with for a never-sag hinge has never been taken on by any other manufacturer. So the never-sag hinge, whether it is being manufactured today I don’t know, just to give you an idea how good the product was the Queensland Housing Commission insisted that all under-house gates be fitted with never-sag hinges. So there are thousands of never-sag hinges around in Queensland in both the suburban and rural properties for fencing gates, it was a terrific hinge for that. He made a particular gutter bracket that no-one else ever made. They called them max-gutter brackets. He made other builders’ hardware. That was the main line, builders’ hardware.
So did he talk about how he came to found the credit union as such, rather than the Holy Trinity Property Redemption Fund?
MC: Well he saw that purely as an extension of that Fund, because it had worked so well. He didn’t talk about how it was founded except to say, “Well if we can do this by a co-operative method for the church, we can do it for each other.”
Did you know the first Board? Have you got details of the first Board?
MC: No. His grandson told me that he does have a photograph somewhere, but he couldn’t find it. I knew a number of the members of the first Board, always been referred to there as the Committee of Management.
Incidentally, this photograph that you have here, is that the whole credit union membership?
MC: It could have been in 1948. It could have been all those present at that particular meeting. I guess this credit union is unique in this sense that it holds a regular monthly meeting for which up to two-fifths of its membership will attend on any one monthly meeting. It has no problems in getting quorums for its AGMs. But there is more than just attending a meeting it was a social environment where Christian people got together as a fellowship as well. As well as conducting the business of the Executive, it also had a monthly meeting where the Executive reported all of the monthly activities to the membership. On such occasions, people could bring along visitors, they could nominate people for membership, they could make applications for loans and generally the loan was granted on the night. It was processed by a Credit Committee and the cheque was written on the night. That still applies.
First we haven’t actually recorded the name of the credit union. It was originally called the Christian Co-operative Credit Union Limited, it was first registered in 1946 on 25 September I understand from the records. It changed its name when, under the 1967 Act?
MC: It then became Christian Credit Union Limited. Now the reason that William Macdonald chose this Act, there were two options going in 1967 and one was the Money Lenders’ Act, and that was completely abhorrent to him, so in 1967 we had to drop the word Co-operative out to comply with this Act. There were two Acts which came into being, the Co-operative and Other Societies Act of 1967 and a Money Lenders’ Act. So whilst we were in the business of lending money, it was never seen as that commercial type of enterprise that was there just to talk about money for people. We were talking about Christian people and helping one another.
What sort of range of loans did they grant in those days, when you first started with them?
MC: I believe, without going into detail, possibly a maximum of five hundred pounds over your share capital.
I mean individual loans?
MC: That would be an individual loan to a person, yes, five hundred pound. The amount you had in shares governed the amount that you were able to borrow. There was always a rule though to ensure that no one individual could have any clout or any sway in the organisation so there was always a limit of one thousand pounds-worth of shares, upper limit.
What did you start with?
MC: So long as you are contributing for five one pound shares, at the time. It is now $10. We are working towards $100. You have got to apply for five $2 shares now and work your way to a $100. Because of the change to the 1968 Act we are now on the level playing field where everyone applies and will eventually get fifty $2 shares, $100. Then we accept moneys on deposit which gives us our working capital.
Now the registered office of the credit union was at Mr Macdonald’s house was it?
MC: Yes Mr Macdonald lived at 53 Butterfield Street, Herston, at the same place where he conducted his blacksmithing business.
So if you wanted to deposit some money or get a loan you went to his house did you?
MC: That was possible. People who couldn’t attend a meeting would post money in or call at his house. He could offer practically a twenty-four hour a day service.
But normally people came to the meeting and it was transacted there was it?
MC: Most of the business was transacted at the monthly meeting. The fourth Monday in the month, and it still applies.
Do you know why he called it a credit union in the first instance, because that surely makes it the first credit union in Australia?
MC: No, I am not aware of it, except he was following the lines of the co-operative movement. He may not have had any option because of the Act he was required to follow that had been set by the State many years prior to that.
It is really fascinating. The method might be applicable to nowadays for people who are not so well of and might have got into some difficulties over the years, a means of saving their way out of things.
MC: It could be, but we are not really in the, shall I say, business of only taking the person in a crisis situation. We want them to join for other reasons, and the other reason is the Christian approach to the thing, that they can give something to the organisation as well as get something back from the organisation. So we don’t see people coming to us wanting a loan, we don’t think the motive is necessarily right. We want to see them as a full member in participating in the activities. Now I am speaking about this meeting that is held on the fourth Monday of the month. It is always associated with a social activity. There is always the cup of tea, there is always the bowls competition, the indoor bowls competition. Until we ran out of players we conducted a table tennis competition.
End Tape 1A: 3755 Words: 1 hour 15 minutes

We were just talking, while the tape was stopped there, about William Macdonald and where he got things from, but he appears to have acted in isolation.
MC: Yes he was a self-motivated man. I think beside the church’s problems with its finances in purchasing property, he possibly had these problems in his own business. I have got no detail of that except that his grandson said that he struggled in the early 1930s in establishing his blacksmithing business.
Is his blacksmithing business still going?
MC: No the grandson operated it until the last four or five years I suppose and then it was sold out and to my knowledge they are not manufacturing any builders and hardware supplies from there now. I am not aware of it anyhow.
Do you think it has led anywhere other than that one credit union? Do you of any other credit unions operating on the same principles with no interest?
MC: No. As I said before William Macdonald and Bishop Ralph Wicks have over years tried to promote it within the Anglican communion without success.
Have you had any problems, any schisms in the credit union or has it always been on a fairly even keel?
MC: The administration has always been under a patron, an ex-officio patron, that is from the Rector of Holy Trinity, Fortitude Valley, and a Committee of twelve. The organisation was under the direct management of W Macdonald until 1968 when he passed away. It was then taken on by his son-in-law, James Watkin. James Watkin was Assistant Treasurer for many, many years. Unfortunately he died in 1969. The grandson, James Watkin Junior, whilst not having a business background took over this blacksmithing business and he attempted to run the credit union. He did it more out of this great pride in his grandfather’s work and his father, and I think he didn’t want to be seen letting that Macdonald side down. But he wasn’t a good administrator and he was eventually relieved of his position as Treasurer-Manager.
Now was this relievement with any bitterness, or did he just understand that he couldn’t do it?
MC: No. There was evidence of misappropriation of moneys, some business practices that weren’t in accordance with the rules of the organisation or the Act. But the credit union never lost financially as a result of his actions. It was all recovered. No bitterness. He hasn’t been associated with the organisation since 1977 and I rang him the other day and he searched all round looking for something that might help us here today, so there is no bitterness there. He is a very committed Christian himself. He knew that he had done something that was out of order and he was prepared to accept that he should no longer have the responsibilities of the Treasurer-Manager of the organisation.
Who took over then?
MC: A person by the name of Mervyn Robert Halliday became the Treasurer-Manager.
What year was that, do you know?
MC: That would be 1977.
You became involved in the running of the credit union at that time, didn’t you?
MC: Oh no, my involvement stems back to 1958, when I became first a member of the Management Committee for a period of two years. I had to relinquish that position to continue my studies. I rejoined the Management Committee in 1961 and I am still on that Committee. I have occupied the positions of Assistant Secretary, Secretary, Assistant Treasurer, Convenor of the Credit Sub-Committee.
What do these positions entail?
MC: Well Secretary in the organisation is virtually like a Minute Secretary rather than what is accepted as Company Secretary. So it was recording of Minutes of Meetings, writing all correspondence on behalf of management. Assistant Treasurer, I am a teller on the night, receive moneys, I also double as being a member of the Credit Committee which approves loans.
Now how does the Credit Committee operate?
MC: The Credit Committee comprises three persons, a convenor plus two. We look at the applications that are received, we establish their entitlement and then produce the necessary forms for the loan to be processed which have to go to the Stamp Duties Office for stamping and I write the cheques counter-signed by the Treasurer-Manager.
Now to be clear about that, when you are granting these loans does the Credit Committee grant all loans, or refuse any loans? Do some loans have to go the full Management Committee?
MC: There is a requirement under the Act that requires that all loans made to Directors to be approved unanimously by the Committee of Management. So, yes, any loan that comes before the Credit Committee from a member of the Management Committee has already been approved by the Management Committee. That loan, when granted, notification has to be made then to the Registrar. Loans made in that particular month to Directors of the organisation have to be notified to the Registrar.
If somebody has their loan turned down by the Credit Committee, do they have the right to go to the full Management Committee?
MC: No. The Treasurer-Manager is always in attendance, if there is any problem in determining whether or not this person is being fairly treated. I can’t recall the last time we had a situation where a person put in for a loan and there was any dispute. Once someone put in for a loan of $25 and we thought that was quite frivolous in this day and age and the Committee referred it to the Treasurer-Manager who spoke to the member, who then tore up the application.
What about bad debts? Do you get any problem at all? Have you had any problem at all with bad debts?
MC: I won’t say a problem. We have never engaged any debt collecting agencies, if that is what you mean. I think since its inception the debts that have been incurred which could not be recovered would be in the area of about $100 to $150.
What in total?
MC: In total.
How long have most of the members been in the credit union?
MC: We do have members who came in, may be not foundation members, but later on in 1946, 1947. I myself am a new boy, I joined in 1956.
You haven’t got any Directors have you, they are members of the Management Committee?
MC: They are deemed to be Directors under the Act.
Do you have any Directors who are still Foundation Directors?
MC: No, there is none of the original members of the 1946 Committee of Management still alive. There are a couple of members of the organisation from 1946, 1947, who are currently on the Committee of Management.
They should be recordable as well from your point of view. Particularly reminiscences about William Macdonald.
MC: These two people I am referring to are ladies and I guess even in those days it was a male-dominated organisation. These people, who are in their sixties now, were very young ladies in 1946, 1947, so they didn’t have a great deal of interest except that they were members of the church. They were invited to join and they became members and have been staunch members ever since and are still prepared to serve on the Committee of Management. They haven’t always been on the Committee of Management. At this point of time we have two, who whilst not original members dated back to late 1946, early 1947.
Is there any other Committee within the credit union? Do you have a Legislative Committee?
MC: No. There are two Standing Committees, that is the Supervisory Committee and the Credit Committee. The Supervisory Committee is an internal audit organisation.
Of how many?
MC: Three. They do an audit on a monthly basis and they report back to the Committee of Management each month. They read a report of the financial state of affairs. They check the Credit Committee’s work on granting of loans to ensure that they are all done in accordance with the rules of the organisation. They bring to the attention of the Management Committee any people who are behind in repayments. They make recommendations about whether this person may be written to, to bring them up-to-date, find out why they are not financial with their repayment. They are an active organisation.
Do they ever do anything to assist members who might have run into difficulties temporarily in order not to be able to pay their arrears?
MC: Anyone who has a problem in their repayments is always directed to the Treasurer-Manager or the President. The President, whilst having no power as such in its administration, though he is a member of the Committee, is a very caring person who lends an ear to anyone with a problem and he would actively take it upon himself to consult with the Treasurer-Manager and in some cases the full Committee if need be. These matters are normally resolved. If we don’t see a person for three or four months and they are behind in their payments may be a phone call to find out what the problem is, or a letter, and usually we get the result. They have a commitment to it and there is a principle involved and they don’t want to let the side down.
Is the Treasurer-Manager paid?
MC: No. All positions are honorary. In more recent years, after the death of William Macdonald and James Watkin, the day-to-day administrative work fell upon me. I felt, and the Committee felt, that this was a work-load which could best be handled by someone else so I was aware of a housewife who was a very, very experienced bookkeeper. She took on the task of doing all the books on a monthly basis for a nominal charge. She is not a member of Christian Credit Union though. That is the only way she was entitled to be paid for any services. This was a contingency fund that was set up many, many years ago. We thought it was going to be used through growth, we could not handle any more than 150 members with a full voluntary Management Committee. From profits earned in financial years over a period of time a portion was salted away for providing for this clerical assistance at some later date.
Your reserves, are they up to the level required by the Act?
MC: Yes, in excess of that. We have statutory reserves and we have other reserves as well.
How do you arrive at the administrative charges?
MC: This is established from previous years of operation and projections for the future. Up until the mid-1960s there was no annual membership fee charged even.
There is now?
MC: Yes. We found that was necessary to defray expenses. If you think that up until 1965 we were paying ten pound for an audit, an annual audit. This year we are paying something in the order of $890 in the audit. You have got to get your money from somewhere to pick up a bill like that.
Is the administrative charge in lieu of having any profit, any interest rate, arrived at on a percentage?
MC: No. It is purely a figure which is established to ensure that we can break even at least at the end of the year. There have been quite a number of occasions when the membership fee for the year has been rebated in part, or in full. Now I might tell you something that was quite unusual, I guess, but it is an unusual organisation isn’t it? In the late 1940s, or early 1950s, our then Rector, Ralph Wicks, who is now a retired Bishop, was a pretty good businessman as well as a clergyman. He knew the people in high places in the firm of McQuirters in the Valley. I don’t know if you know of McQuirters it became a Myers store. Now he was able to negotiate with McQuirters as it was then, and then later on with Myer, that they would give a 7 per cent discount to Christian Credit Union members on all purchases other than groceries. That existed until about 1986, 1987. Now when the people made their purchases they put it on a monthly account, they paid the credit union in full, we took the 7 per cent off, paid McQuirters, or Myers, the amount less the 7 per cent. At the end of the year the credit union took 2 per cent for its handling charges and gave 5 per cent back in a dividend to the member. Again, it was one of the earliest credit unions I guess to take out its insurance with Co-operative Insurance and it became an agent, so any policies that were established the credit union got the discount off the policy, the rebate of the policy. Where it was a policy the credit union held for its own indemnity or transfer of moneys, loss of moneys in transit, it naturally took the 10 per cent that came back into the coffers. But, in fairness to the member, we always paid that portion of theirs back to them, so they got the rebate at the end of the financial year. That went on to their shares, so they gained by increasing their equity in the credit union as a result of having a policy with Co-operative Insurance.
When it became a company, CIS, rather than a co-operative, did you still continue to deal with them?
MC: Yes. Still dealing with them today. We still get the rebates. As a matter of fact where a credit union can make a little bit extra is where a person is no longer a member, who has resigned for some reason or other, the records from the insurance company still show that we are the agents so the discount or rebate comes back to the organisation so it doesn’t get passed back on to that person who is no longer a member. We can’t, by law anyhow, give back money to someone who is no longer a member. So that is a bit of a windfall we get. It is not a great deal of money, but at least it is something. We do promote the company, always have promoted the company, because they have been very competitive in their rates. They say you can only judge an insurance company when you make a claim, and they have been very good.
Does your credit union ever make a profit?
MC: Yes it does make a profit from time-to-time. As I was saying before, we were never out to make any great profit out of membership fees. We would rebate those if we looked as though we were going to make a big profit, that wasn’t the name of the game. We now have higher administrative charges so we have to look at the things that weren’t applicable in the early days of the organisation. One of the principles of the organisation was that a member was not to lend money at interest. Now we find ourselves having to deposit moneys on interest that we hold. Some of our reserves, which are not statutory reserves, we invest those. It is not for the purpose of making money out of it, it is trying to keep up with inflation. The dollar is shrinking so we have got to do something and that is the sole purpose of taking out debentures with say AGC or the like. It is purely to keep the dollar on an equal footing. They are the kind of things we are doing to insure that the cost to membership is never any more than $5, it has never been more than that anyhow.
What do members borrow money for mainly?
MC: Household goods and appliances.
The amounts now?
MC: We can loan up to $3,000. That will depend on the equity that the person has in the organisation. So part-payment on motor cars, or paying out a hire purchase where they have got it down to a certain level and want to pay it out. We can’t match other financial institutions in the amount we can lend. A person might want to go on a holiday or something like that. We had one on Monday night, a person who wanted to go for an overseas holiday. If you look at the list of the objects for the organisation it was more for the household, the occasional unforseen bill that came in for say house repairs or house improvements, something like that. That seems to be the main thrust of it.
So what is the current limit that members are allowed to put into the credit union? What is the maximum you are allowed to borrow?
MC: There is no limit that a person can have by way of money on deposit. Each person, each member, has fifty $2 shares, a $100 in share capital. The rest is money on deposit. There is a cap on the loans of $3,000. That is only to protect ourselves from a run on any big loans that we might get at any particular time. We have never been short with those types of restrictions of being able to provide an immediate loan to a member. Over the period of years of my knowledge we have never had to ask a person to wait anything more than a month, anyhow.
Have you ever been involved, not you personally but the credit union, in any of the organisations within the movement, either the credit union leagues or with the Advisory Committee to the Minister for Labour and Industry?
MC: No. I believe the way it was set up made it unique in credit unions as they were at that point in time and are still, the new ones forming up. We could never seen that there was any mileage in it, not that we were looking for it. We were sort of self-sufficient. We were an organisation that didn’t need outside assistance. It didn’t need guidance on the way it was going. The mentor had it had this well in hand. The current Treasurer-Manager has a Bachelor of Business Administration.
Is that Mervyn Halliday?
MC: Yes. He is very astute in money management. The President Ernest Calvert is a retired public servant.
Have you got the names of all the Presidents since its inception?
MC: No I haven’t. I would have to pass that one up at this point in time. William Macdonald, I don’t know that he always had the role of Treasurer-Manager or whether he was President at any point in time prior to my joining.
You mentioned that a number of clergymen have been patrons.
MC: It is written into the rules that the patron is an ex-officio member of the Committee of Management. That has been a tradition until the current clergyman. He became a member, but he has since resigned for personal reasons. He obviously is interested in other areas. He has got no problem with the organisation. The rules still make provision for him, being a non-member, ex-officio he can come and sit on our Committee of Management meetings. He doesn’t exercise that though.
Did they ever save or borrow money?
MC: Clergymen in the past who have been members, yes without exception.
They were members?
MC: Oh yes. We still have two former rectors of the parish who are members, who still come to meetings. Whilst they are elsewhere, they still come along for the General Meeting. They are no longer on Committee. They are quite eligible to become a member of the Committee of Management. I can recall the Reverend Les Turner once, he was patron when he was our rector, he moved on to another a parish and he remained in the credit union and he remained on the Committee of Management.
End Tape 1B: 3338 Words: 1 hour 10 minutes