Project: Sydney Electricity Employees’ Credit Union Oral History
Interviewer: Richard Raxworthy
Interviewee: Ted Moberley
Date: 1 December 1992
Tape Number: 1

SIDE A

Mr Moberley for many years was on the Internal Audit Committee of the credit union. I will ask you first where were you born and when?

TM: I was born in Darlinghurst in 1943.

You grew up around there?

TM: No. I spent the first seven years of my life at Coogee, lived at Waltham Street, Coogee. Went to school there, my first year of school. From there we moved to Alexandria. I was an infants there for four years and then went to the Brothers, seven years later.

What sort of influence did you get from your father, what did he do?

TM: I guess basically just let a good clean life. He was a very strong person. From him I learnt the basics of life to make sure I did the right thing by everybody.

Was he involved politically or an industrial sense?

TM: A Labor member yes, not in the Party itself as a member of parliament but definitely in the Labor unions.

You mentioned to me before we started the tape that he had served his time at Eveleigh and that he was at Chullora, was he on the shop committee at Chullora?

TM: Yes he was on the shop committee, a steward, involved with the normal union delegate type situation and helping the cause of unionism.

It is possible that you did get your involvement from him.

TM: Possible. I do support the union movement, not to the degrees that they go to, but I suppose I am a Labor type person.

I don’t only mean that, I mean also that you go on committees and you do things instead of being a passive member.

TM: I generally step forward to get on committees, yes.

Did you mother ever do any of that?

TM: Not to my knowledge.

What about at school, what did you like or dislike, what were you good at?

TM: My greatest like was the technical drawing and woodwork and metalwork. Mathematics, English, science, I’d rather leave that to those that could handle it, I was more a hands-on type person.

Did you go on to any tertiary study afterwards, or any apprenticeship?

TM: No I didn’t. I just stuck with the clerical work with Sydney Electricity.

Where did you get our first job?

TM: Sydney Electricity in 1958 and I’m still there.

So when did you first hear about credit unions?

TM: Around about 1966, I think. It was not long after Sydney Electricity, or Sydney County Council as it was then, started up their credit union. I think within six months I was a member of the credit union.

Did you got a meeting first?

TM: No. I just thought it was a good idea at the time and in terms of savings it was better interest on savings. I thought it was a chance and I could get a car pretty easy.

Can you remember anybody introducing you to it, or coming round and soliciting your membership?

TM: Well Bill Brady and I worked together for many years and I guess Bill was possibly a person who steered me towards the credit union.

Did you know he was involved in the credit union itself?

TM: I knew Bill was on the Internal Audit Committee at that time. I also knew a few of the directors. They were good guys and I thought if they were in it why shouldn’t I be.

Before the credit union was started can you remember in the Sydney County Council whether there was any loan sharks operating? For instance, how did you get paid? Was the ‘Robbers’ Row’ that the unions collected their money or was it on a payroll deductions?

TM: There was just the normal payroll deductions to various charities, but really I got my pay in my hand, went down the road to the Commonwealth Bank and put all my pay, or what was left, into a savings bank.

Did you ever try getting a loan from them?

TM: Yes I did and I walked out miserable afterwards and thought I would never go back there again. That was the Commonwealth Bank and I’ve never gone back to them.

Were you aware of any abuses around the place where people were loan sharking, or were getting themselves in trouble with cash orders or with some of the hire purchase companies?

TM: I had heard of them but I didn’t see any of it, it was new to me I guess.

I suppose it runs in families and if it doesn’t run in your family you don’t see a lot of it.

TM: I guess that is true.

I must admit, although I didn’t see it in the family, I saw it amongst people I worked with. You could see the people who would jump in for a cash order if they could get one and they were paying incredible rates of interest if you worked it out.

TM: I guess there were a few places around the city that their shingles outside the door and you knew they were very high interest rates so you just kept away from those, used your commonsense.

What about the gamblers, do you know of any of those who got in trouble?

TM: I’ve heard of a few. They led their life and I led mine.

So when you joined the credit union how long was it before you started an interest? Who suggested you go on the Internal Audit Committee?

TM: Well a friend of mine was approached by one of the directors at the time, Mr Max Steven, and Max wanted a couple of people on the Internal Audit Committee. He approached this friend of mine called Brian Keating and Brian approached me. That was in about 1970 I think, Brian and I were elected to the Internal Audit Committee. So I guess it came not through my interest but through someone asking me how would I like to the on the Internal Audit Committee. I said, “Sure, great. Good idea.”

Were you on any other committees at various places at that time, on the social club or anything like that?

TM: No. This was the first step into being involved in a community-type committee.

You hadn’t got involved in any union at that stage?

TM: No. I liked the idea of unions but I just preferred to keep back from it. It might be contrary to what I said earlier, but it was a grey area and I just wasn’t quite sure. There were too many radicals around and I just wanted to keep back a bit.

Your family was Catholic, had you seen any of the bitterness that had been around during the split?

TM: Yes. When dad was involved with the unions there was always this talk of the DLP and ALP. I did see it around that period.

Did your father get involved in the movement? The Catholic Social Studies Movement?

TM: Not really. No he didn’t.

So he wasn’t involved with any of the industrial groups?

TM: Not directly, he was just a member of his local union and a delegate.

So he didn’t really get involved but you did see it around the place.

TM: Yes I did.

It was extremely divisive wasn’t it?

TM: It certainly was.

Was anybody in your family involved at all, were there arguments within the family?

TM: Not to my knowledge.

Sometimes it did even split families, I have heard.

TM: Yes I have heard of it to, but not our family.

So before you were on the Internal Audit Committee were you aware of the other directors and the way the credit union was run?

TM: I was aware of the directors and I was also aware of the Internal Audit Committee, but I wasn’t aware of how it was being run. I knew it was a community-based society and that the philosophy was your money would go into the credit union as a saving and you would help your fellow mate. Again it was a little bit airy-fairy to me. I understood the philosophy behind it but that was as far as it went.

Well Bill Brady was on the board at that time, 1968.

TM: Yes that’s right.

So he was involved. Was there anything controversial about the credit union at the time you were starting to become aware of it? You were a member, did you go to any annual general meetings?

TM: I went to several annual general meetings but I don’t recall any controversy at that time. I can recall a little bit earlier when one or two directors stood down, I don’t think they liked the way it was going.

Which was?

TM: I am not real sure, I am just aware that they stood down. There was a bit of conflict so they just stood down.

Did you know that some of the most famous ones around the place, like Col Dade and Maurie Ryan, were you involved at that time?

TM: Yes. I was chairman of the Internal Audit Committee at the time when Col was the general manager and Maurie the chairman of the board. I have known them for quite a while.

So what was the routine when you used to come in on the Internal Audit Committee?

TM: I guess we really ran our own race. We didn’t have any audit plans, we just came in and there was nothing fixed or laid down. You would pick up a report on overdrawn savings or you’d pick up a few loan applications and you’d go through and tick it and say it looked fine, it looked all right. There was no formal reporting system although we had been reminded on a number of occasions by the chairman of the board of directors we should report to them, but it was a fairly informal type of situation, not like today, it is slightly different.

Did you all have different jobs or did you all jump in and do anything?

TM: I think it would be more true to say we all jumped in did anything.

Nobody checked loans and that sort of thing?

TM: We didn’t check loans specifically, that’s right. I don’t think there was ever any regular routine of meeting. We would go up every second Wednesday night, fifteen of us, and whoever was there first would pick up…

Fifteen of you?

TM: All fifteen may not have been there together, you could probably say at least ten, but there were fifteen on the committee.

Once a month was it?

TM: Once every fortnight, on Wednesday nights.

How long did you work?

TM: Two hours, five to seven.

Then?

TM: Most of us went home.

You didn’t go out anywhere together?

TM: Not it was very rarely did we ever go out.

They never brought out any tea for you?

TM: No, no. That didn’t happen until about the 1970s, early 1980s I think. It wasn’t for love. When I first got on the committee I was told about twelve months later where did I want my tea money paid. I said, “What are you talking about.” He said, “Oh you get fifty cents a night for tea money.” I wasn’t aware of anything like that at all until almost twelve months later. So the purpose of me joining was basically to help the credit union not for the monetary return, and that’s the way I have always been.

Well fifty cents money is not very much, even in those days.

TM: It certainly wasn’t. Maybe a pie and peas down Harry’s Cafe de Wheels.

Did you pick up any problems in the Internal Audit Committee?

TM: Often we brought things to the notice of the board. Used to be quite concerned about the overdrawn savings accounts. There was no control system on the records at that time and we used to go through and look for anything overdrawn. Minor problems in the loans areas but nothing of real significance.

So who was the chairman of the Internal Audit Committee when you first went on?

TM: Ray Lonnon was chairman, he was on it for two years, and I think I followed him.

What was he like?

TM: Very good. Ray is a fairly easy chap to work with and quite a bit of knowledge and gave us a lot of assistance.

He instructed you on how to go about things?

TM: I believe so. I really can’t remember whether it was Ray, but I would say it would have been Ray but I just cannot remember.

I have heard some incredible things about supervisory or Internal Audit Committees of various credit unions, there was one fellow who used to search around for money lying around the place.

TM: We used to have those, go through drawers to see if any cash was left in the drawers, those sorts of things. Thought it was Christmas when you did find something like that. We weren’t all that bad, we were just trying to do the right thing. I think this came back to some of the earlier days. The employees of Sydney County Council used to have various savings clubs or betting clubs or tea clubs and on a number of occasions quite a bit of money was taken from these little tins out of people’s drawers. If my memory serves me correctly I think that’s the reason the credit union started, because a few of these type of things had happened. As I said, I think that is the reason the credit union got going. We were always aware to make sure you had the money locked away and not just left on top of the desk or in the top drawer.

What about the various methods of account keeping in the credit union over the years, you must have been aware of that?

TM: Lot of changes from just the normal profit and loss entry into a ledger.

Was that a Kalamazoos ledger?

TM: Yes a Kalamazoos ledger. From there it went to their own computer system.

When did that happen?

TM: I think that was after the defalcation by the treasurer, back in 1978.

Up until that time it had been hand-written, or was it a machine?

TM: We had it mostly in Kalamazoos books. A chap called Bert Cavell, he was a computer programmer for Sydney County Council at the time, he wrote a couple of programs for the credit union. The work was done on County Council time, the monthly reports and weekly reports were produced on County Council time. They were quite good programs, they seemed to do the job, but obviously they were up for manipulation when the treasurer was able to transfer sums of money from one account to another without being detected.

None of you at the Internal Audit Committee suspected anything?

TM: No.

Who picked up on it first?

TM: Jointly with the general manager and the Internal Audit Committee at the time. There was an entry, as I understand it, could not be reconciled. The general manager came to the chairman of the Internal Audit Committee, Mr Paul Ryan, and we tried to have a look at it and we couldn’t reconcile it. The chairman of the board was then brought in and I think you know the rest of the story. It is frightening.

When it was found that there was money missing did the Internal Audit Committee have any involvement then?

TM: Only the chairman of the Internal Audit Committee. It was kept hush-hush at the time. I can understand the sensitivity because the treasurer was off on sick leave. He was on sick leave because he knew what was going on, or so I assume anyhow. It was very worrying because a lot of members of the Internal Audit Committee felt that we could be up for negligence because of the way we were involved. We were checking certain documents and we weren’t quite sure whether we were going to be legally responsible, as could the directors, or as much as the directors. It was very nerve-racking and a worry for me.

The person who was responsible for the money going missing, the treasurer at the time, did you know him well?

TM: Extremely well. I first met the treasurer, I don’t want to call him by name yet, I guess about 1968. He was in the disbursement section of the County Council and I was transferred there and over a year we formed a friendship and got on fairly well. Keith eventually left the County Council to become treasurer of the credit union and what we used to do on a regular basis, he and a few other friends, we would play cards during lunchtime. It was only a friendly social sort of thing, but we were playing card I guess right up until the time he went off sick.

Was he a gambler?

TM: Yes. I believe so. The boys in the office, I worked with him for many years, we all knew he was gambling but never suspected that he was getting into debt as a result of gambling.

So it got out of hand while he was at the credit union.

TM: It appears to have, yes.

So what actually happened at that stage in the proceedings when they found money was missing, did they call people in from outside?

TM: Yes. I am not quite sure of the sequence of events, but I understand there was a number of employees who worked for the association. They came to this organisation, the credit union.

That was the stabilisation team, Geoff Cambridge?

TM: I am not sure.

Pat Taylor?

TM: Sounds familiar, and a bloke called Peter — I can’t think of his last name — he was metallurgic scientist at ???? They came in to try and sort out the problem with the accounts. It took them about three months, maybe longer, and Pat remained here for a little while and then left. The other chap, Peter, he remained here up until a few years ago. He had to retire due to ill-health. Not long after they sorted out the accounts problem and they employed Ken May as general manager.

Did that change anything from the Internal Audit Committee’s point of view?

TM: Made our job a bit easier. He implemented a number of controls. The directors decided to buy their own computer, which was going to assist the credit union in many ways, and I believe it did. Ken implemented many controls and that improved the running of the organisation to the members benefit.

The treasurer was convicted?

TM: It may have been of fraud, but I’m not quite sure of the legal terminology. I believe at the time of his arrest he was spending some time in prison before his court appearance. If my memory serves me correct after that he was given nine years and some of the term was to be served concurrently. I believe that the two years he had served prior to the trial was actually deducted from the time he had to spend in gaol.

Now around about that time your own computer went on-line. Before that had you been on DPMS, or one of the services around the place?

TM: No we were using the Sydney County Council computer system prior to that, programs that had been written by Bert Cavell.

When you brought your own computer which programs did you use?

TM: Name-wise I couldn’t tell you that, just used a number of general ledger accounts.

Was it the New South Wales Credit Union League system?

TM: No, it was an AWA stand-alone system from the league.

The league was marketing software with GCS in those days. They started a company called FCS to make the software.

TM: It could have been, I’m not quite sure of that. It was an AWA computer.

Well they started off with that I think, although it has gone a number of places since. Now as an Internal Audit Committee were you allowed to get into the computer?

TM: Yes we had access to general enquiries. The Internal Audit Committee’s role was not responsible for checking the books on accounts. Our role was generally checking transactions, journal transactions, checking loan applications, checking of signatures, making sure the membership fees were right, that the shares balanced with the share register. That was basically our role, not so much the checking of accounts.

Are you still allowed into the computer?

TM: Yes for enquiry purposes yes.

So do you ever check anybody’s account out? I know somebody who used to check his brother’s out regularly. His brother used to ask him too.

TM: No we never check. If a report came in that had a friend’s name on it I generally give it somebody else and say, “I don’t want to know, you check that.” I respect everybody’s confidentiality.

Were there any rules about that sort of thing?

TM: Unwritten rules. When we appointed a new member to the Internal Audit Committee we would go through the spiel of advising them that they had to respect confidentiality. I think it is still regularly enforced, even on a yearly basis.

So you were on the committee for twenty-three years, that’s a long time.

TM: Enjoyed every minute of it too.

So what interested you?

TM: I think the main reason was the assistance of my friends, helping the credit union, well my little effort kept some costs down. I got involved in a lot of areas of internal auditing. I looked at savings transactions, loans, payroll; that is the payroll of the employees’; accounts processing, almost every area of internal auditing. To keep my interest there I made sure that I didn’t do the same job for more than a number of years, so mainly every five years I got on to something different to keep my interest in. After a while you start to flag a bit and you are looking for something different, that is my nature. I sort of circulated right through the credit union accounting processes.

SIDE B

Do you remember the various premises that the credit union operated from? When you first became aware of the credit union and joined where were their premises then?

TM: I can remember the first office, that was down in what we called ‘the dungeons’, the basement area of the Queen Victoria Building. It was a little room I guess about 10 ft x 5 ft, something like that. Percy Ward used to be down there collecting the money, the savings accounts, and recording the interest on the cards. From there I think we moved to the present Sydney Electricity Building, on the fifth floor. Over a number of years they moved from floor to floor within that building. At one stage there they were spread out over two floors, had little cubby holes. From there we decided to move down to Rodan Cutler House, I am not quite sure of the year, but the whole office of the credit union was on one floor and that was great. Everything was all nice and tidy and clean, you could find things easier. A few years back we bought these premises, 110 Bathurst Street, and moved up here.

What about staff, who do you remember on the staff? You remember Percy obviously.

TM: I can remember Percy very well.

What hours was the credit union open in those days? Was he the sole employee?

TM: To my recollection yes. I can’t remember any others.

Open every day did he?

TM: I couldn’t be sure, but whenever I went down he was open so I assumed it was open every day. Other staff, you are really testing my memory now. I can remember Keith being treasurer part-time. I find it hard to recall the number of staff that were on the credit union in the old Queen Victoria Building. I can remember Jim Reynolds coming to the organisation and a number of people just passing in and out over the last nearly thirty years. But in the very early days only Perc and ????

Who was the manager after Perc?

TM: You’ve got me. I think Ray Cooper.

There was Col Dade before that. Was there anybody between Perc and Col do you think?

TM: I don’t think so. It was being run by what they called the secretary, I think Perc was the secretary/manager so to speak with the credit union. I thought Col came in after Ray. That’s the way I thought it was running. Then Ken May. I didn’t think Ray was after Col, but you may be right.

Well I think Col came back again afterwards, after Ray, I am pretty certain he did. Did you have much to do with Ray Cooper?

TM: I had a bit to do with him. I was chairman of the Internal Audit Committee at the time when he was the general manager. We used to have our differences of opinion but I got on very well with him. Whether he felt the same way I’ve got no idea. I remember having quite a few heated debates over different issues.

Such as?

TM: The issue of wages. I had a very astute assistant on the committee that knew a lot about the awards and payment to the employees of the credit union were identical to those of Sydney County Council. Whenever there was a difference of opinion on how an employee was to be paid this gentleman would always come to me and say, “Hey we don’t do it this way. Why don’t we go and see Ray,” and because I wasn’t an expert I always let this other fellow do the talking. I can remember quite often walking out of Ray’s office and the staff looking at us. But I think we got on well.

Did you have any arguments with any of the staff?

TM: Never, no. With my personality I don’t have arguments with staff. You have got to be able to work with them, you’ve got to be able to seek out information particularly in the area of audits and if you have staff off-side you get nowhere, so it’s pointless. I don’t believe I had any arguments, but there maybe somebody who would say I had an argument with such and such, but I don’t believe so.

Can you remember whether you went to any schools or any seminars?

TM: I went to an internal auditor’s training course at Terrigal once, that was run by I guess the association. It was a weekend job and it was reasonably helpful. Only two of the audit people went to that particular course, 1973 but I’m not real sure of the time. That was the first one. Apart from 1990, when it was the External Audit Association Conference at Mudgee, I haven’t been to any others in nearly twenty years.

Were you aware of any other schools even though you didn’t attend them, I mean did you get any manuals or books from anything else? There was a case book on one occasion that was put out for Internal Audit Committees.

TM: Honestly I don’t recall ever seeing anything being directed to the Internal Audit Committee saying there was a conference on, or a training session, I don’t ever recall that happening.

What about the Chapter, were you involved with that?

TM: No never. I was told about them. The chapters in those days to me, my opinion, was for the staff and directors, not so much the internal audit. From the internal audit point of view I couldn’t see much feedback.

When you came to the point were you asked to go on the board or did you suddenly decide you were going to stand?

TM: I thought it was my time.

Had you had any formal training at all? Had you been to ICUD?

TM: No, no formal training. I guess two years, I am not sure of the date, I did run as a director one year and missed out by three votes. From a humorous point of view I used to always say to my children and my wife, “If you had been there I’d be a director now.” I think it was two years later, which is 1991, I thought to myself if I had only missed out by three votes that time I must have a chance this time. So 1991 was my year. I had put in twenty-odd years in the internal audit and I couldn’t learn anything else, I had done as much as I could, encouraged people to belong to the credit union and encouraged the existing members of the Internal Audit Committee to come on to it, so as I said I thought it was the year for me.

Were you aware of any in-fighting at board level before you came on the board, any factionalism?

TM: I have got to be honest, yes. I guess it goes for almost anything, there are always two sides — the left and right hand side.

Did this start in the Sydney County Council or did it start in the credit union?

TM: I don’t know where it started. I think it was possibly a conflict of philosophy or ideas of where it was going to. Sufficient to say several directors were very conscious of costs and that was their thing, they tried to keep the costs down, where others felt it wasn’t such an important issue, that members were important. I think that was where the divisions may have been. I tried to stay clear of it. When I decided to run, to be elected, that was one thing I promised myself, I wouldn’t be part of one party, either left or right, I would just do what I feel is right.

What about the argument about whether the bond should be opened up to the community or not?

TM: Very nasty. I can recall going to the meeting and my opinion, and this is not the opinion of anybody else, I thought there was some motive other than what the board was putting up. I felt that maybe possibly staying on the board for as long as they really wanted to, or should, I couldn’t believe the arguments that were being presented as being a genuine reason for opening the bond. There were heated debates and a lot of the members who were called the ‘old school’ felt that it was an employees’ credit union and they wanted to be an employees’ credit union and stay that way. It was a very hard decision but I could see that in years to come the bond would have to be opened up, but at that time I think in respect of a lot of people the arguments weren’t very well put across. So I was actually delighted that at that time they lost the proposal.

Is it open to the community in the area now?

TM: In the 1992 elections a proposal was put up to the membership to open the bond up to contractors who supply goods and services to Sydney Electricity and from my recollection that was voted in almost unanimously, there were just two members who voted against it. So it was fairly convincing vote to support the opening of the bond. I believe we are not too far from the next step, that has been approved by the registrar.

So you will have an area?

TM: Yes.

Whereabouts do you know?

TM: I have no idea. The general manager is looking into that area. It will be interesting to see actually what he does come up with. I can’t imagine it would be a terribly large organisation, probably keep it to something fairly small. Definitely somebody who is on the payroll, or whole of pay, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

What about any amalgamations? There has been one hasn’t there?

TM: 1980 there was an amalgamation of what they called Brisbane Water County Council, St George County Council and McKellar County Council. That was the time Sydney County Council amalgamated and this credit union took over St George Credit Union, part of it, part of Mackellar and part of Brisbane Water.

So they didn’t take over the council employees’ side of it, only the electricity works. I was aware of it from Sydney Credit Union’s point of view, because they took over the council workers as opposed to the electricity works.

TM: That’s correct.

Were you involved in that at all?

TM: No. No. I was still on the Internal Audit Committee and doing my job of picking up vouchers and verifying them.

Did you attend meetings where the transfer of engagements was put to the members?

TM: I don’t recall any.

I understand the St George one wasn’t very friendly. I notice at Sydney Credit Union they had some where there were fights and all sorts. There was nothing in any of the ones you attended?

TM: No. But there again I may have missed something, I am not sure. I think Brisbane Water was a bit contentious. St George I did hear was contentious. They were losing something and I couldn’t quite figure out what they were losing, but it was always put to me that they weren’t gaining they were losing.

Was there any talk of amalgamating with Prospect, or taking over Prospect?

TM: No, definitely not.

Were you involved at all with the Electricity Industry and Local Government Credit Unions Association?

TM: No. As far as the credit union goes my involvement was internal audit and I let the directors do their job and they done it well. I kept back from that.

What about the different personalities? What was Col Dade like?

TM: A very happy-go-lucky, easy to get on with individual. Very approachable. If you ever had any problems he was prepared to listen and if he thought it was a good idea he’d say so. Quite an easy bloke to get on with. There were others who weren’t quite so easy, more autocratic type people.

Are you referring to Maurie Ryan?

TM: Could possibly be.

Was he more autocratic?

TM: That’s my opinion. I think it is fair to say that many directors sat there and nodded their heads, he ran a very tight ship.

Have you any stories?

TM: It is only a personal one and I’d rather not repeat it thank you.

What about some of the characters in the movement, I mean for instance did you know Dermot Ryan?

TM: No I didn’t.

Stan Arneil?

TM: No. Really I haven’t.

Did you attend any League or AFCUL conventions or annual meetings?

TM: No I didn’t. I must have missed something.

There were a number of ructions, for instance when there was a split over insurance, did you hear anything about this or were you involved at all?

TM: No. I’ve led a pretty quiet life haven’t I, very sheltered.

Were you on any other committees apart from the Internal Audit Committee?

TM: No. Kept to internal audit.

Did you get any instructions from the external auditor, from the auditor him or herself?

TM: No. We really were very much left to ourselves I guess right up to just after the defalcation. We got a firm called Deloitte Haskins and Sells, they came in as the external auditors. Prior to that the audit committee had prepared a set of manuals as how we should be doing our audits. Deloittes came in and the very first thing they asked us was, “Have you got any manuals on how you operate?” We said, “Yes,” and gave it to them. Several weeks later they came back to the board and said, “Right, here is our programme, this is what we are going to do.” Lo and behold this programme and work manuals were a lift-off from ours and it was being construed that it was theirs. We made sure that the board knew where it came from in the first place, it was our effort. To Paul Ryan’s credit, because Paul became chairman just before the defalcation, Paul said, “Have you got any guides of working manuals?” We said no so he said, “How about doing some,” so that is what we did. We took several years to do them but working on them on a voluntary basis we didn’t do too bad a job actually.

Did you take a particular area yourself?

TM: Yes I took payroll, loans, late payments and that sort of thing. Within the group we had a number of working groups, A, B and C, and each group was responsible for different areas of authority. The group leader, with the assistance of the rest, wrote up the manuals. Very interesting.

When they were complete were they circulated outside the credit union?

TM: We didn’t really go out and say, “Hey we’ve got a set of manuals,” but the grapevine worked through John Gormley, as a number of credit unions did approach Paul Ryan. Exactly how many went out the door I don’t know.

Now is there anything else we should have covered that we haven’t do you think?

TM: I don’t think so. I think we have done what we set out to do.

You weren’t on any of the other committees? You weren’t on the building committee for instance?

TM: No. The only time I would have been on a committee is as a director on the policy’s committee and the board audit committee.

There’s a board audit committee is there?

TM: Yes, that was formed about April of this year. We preempted the legislation which states there should be a board audit committee. One night at the board table Pat Stone, the chairman, turned around and said, “How would you like to be on the board audit committee?” I said, “Yes, I like that idea.” So Bill Brady, Mick Kean and myself were elected. It has been an interesting six months.

What about the changes instituted by the new legislation?

TM: The changes are making us more accountable, it is putting I guess more pressure on the board of directors to ensure that they abide by the FI Code and the prudential standards. I guess it is making all of us more aware of how a credit union operates. I think we are just more aware of what we have got to do and our responsibilities, which is only the fair and right thing to do.

What about the representation issue, which some people, John Gormley particularly, feel credit unions get more representation than they used to, whereas others reckon that the representation has decreased with the new CUSCAL arrangement?

TM: That is an area, again, which I am not too familiar with. I have got a couple of years experience under my belt as a director but I’m still trying to learn the ropes of where my responsibilities are at the moment. I have got no comment there.

What about the situation with CUSCAL? Again there was some controversy about the fact they’ve got too many staff.

TM: Well that’s up to CUSCAL to tell if they’ve got too many staff.

What about the future of credit unions, where they’ve gone and where they are going? What’s your opinion of the way credit unions have gone to now?

TM: Well there seems to be an opinion within the industry that the number of credit unions will decrease over the next ten years or so, I tend to believe that to be right. I’ve got nothing to support it except a gut feeling with the legislators putting more pressure on the directors to be more involved, the audit committee, to make the credit unions more viable. I know we shouldn’t be competing with the banks but the pressure is on us to compete with the banks and the only way we can do that is by, I guess, becoming a little bit better and bigger than we are. I don’t say we’ve got to be as big as banks, but some of the smaller credit unions may have to look at the way they are running and to be more efficient and effective amalgamate with some large credit unions. It will be a sorry day, but that is the way things are going.

Well is there anything I should have asked you that I haven’t now?

TM: Yes, am I enjoying it? I am delighted with being a director of this credit union, it is a further interest. Busy but it is keeping active.

Are you going to stand for chairman?

TM: No. A very demanding job. There are one or two other people I believe that can do the job better than I can. I’m a very quiet sort of a person, I’m not one that gets up there, I’m not flamboyant if you understand what I mean. I am a doer rather than trying to get people to do things for me. I’d rather stand back and give the chairman support. I’m quite happy where I am thank you.

There’s one thing for an audit committee that I haven’t asked anybody else, but I will ask you now, do they audit the number of active membership?

TM: At this stage no. We are pretty new. There are a number of risks that the audit committee have got to ensure that adequate controls are there. Whether that will be a step in the future it is a bit too early to answer. We’ll just have to wait and see.

Do you think the Internal Audit Committee, which is still operating, has a future?

TM: I think the time is getting close at hand where by the end of this century there will not be an Internal Audit Committee. It will be a sorry thing for this credit union. The members as they exist now, who are a majority of employees, I feel that they feel it is a comfort blanket there, having people they know on the audit committee. When the bond is opened up you get new members who won’t know one person from another and the person won’t know or realise the purpose of the Internal Audit Committee. From an efficiency point of view by the end of the century I can see a change in that area.

Thank you very much Mr Ted Moberley.

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