TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD RAXWORTHY AND GODFREY STEPHENS

RE: THE HISTORY OF QUEENSLAND CREDIT UNIONS

(QUEENSLAND CREDIT UNION LEAGUE – TAPE 10 – 1.11.91)

RAXWORTHY: MR STEPHENS, WHERE WERE YOU BORN AND WHEN?

STEPHENS: I WAS BORN IN DUBLIN, IRELAND, ON THE 29 SEPTEMBER, 1925.

RAXWORTHY: AND DID YOU GROW UP THERE?

STEPHENS: I GREW UP THERE YES, UNTIL I WAS 20.

RAXWORTHY: SO YOU WENT TO SCHOOL THERE?

STEPHENS: I WENT TO SCHOOL THERE, YEAH, RIGHT THROUGH.

RAXWORTHY: WHAT SORT OF CHILDHOOD DID YOU HAVE? WHAT SORT OF FAMILY BACKGROUND?

STEPHENS: I HAD ONE SISTER AND ONE BROTHER, MUM AND DAD. WELL IT’S HARD TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOUR FAMILY LIFE WAS LIKE.

RAXWORTHY: YES IT’S HARD.

STEPHENS: IT IS HARD. A VERY RETIRING FAMILY, A QUIET FAMILY AND I THINK I FOLLOWED THAT SAME PATTERN IN MY EARLY DAYS WITH THEM.

RAXWORTHY: ANY POLITICAL OR RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND?

STEPHENS: NOTHING SIGNIFICANT WHATSOEVER. CERTAINLY NOTHING SIGNIFICANT IN THE POLITICAL FIELD AND JUST A NORMAL RELIGIOUS HOME THAT I WAS BROUGHT UP IN.

RAXWORTHY: WERE THERE ANY OUTSIDE INFLUENCES FROM SCHOOL THAT DETERMINED THE WAY THAT YOU WENT LATER ON IN LIFE, LOOKING BACK?

STEPHENS: NO, I DON’T THINK SO. I THINK MY BASIC EDUCATION WAS OF GENERAL LEVELS AND GENERAL STANDARDS UP TO SECONDARY LEVEL TO TERTIARY LEVEL. BUT I THINK I WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE A DESK JOCKEY IF I MIGHT SAY THAT.

RAXWORTHY: AND WHERE DID YOU GO TO SCHOOL? WHAT SCHOOL?

STEPHENS: I WENT TO THE HIGH SCHOOL IN DUBLIN WHICH IS A PRIVATE SECONDARY SCHOOL.

RAXWORTHY: AND DID YOU DO WELL AT ANY PARTICULAR SUBJECT?

STEPHENS: MATHEMATICS WAS PROBABLY ABOUT MY STRONGEST SUBJECT AND WOODWORKING BUT IT WAS A VERY BROAD COURSE, A NORMAL COURSE TAKING YOU RIGHT THROUGH TO UNIVERSITY ENTRANCE.

RAXWORTHY: AND YOU WENT TO UNIVERSITY STRAIGHT AWAY?

STEPHENS: NO, I DIDN’T GO TO UNIVERSITY. AT THE TIME OF WHICH I WAS IN SCHOOL, WE WERE IN A SITUATION PROBABLY SOMEWHAT SIMILAR TO AUSTRALIA IN A RATHER NASTY DEPRESSION AND I, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HAD TO SEEK MY WAY IN THE WORLD SO MY FIRST JOB WAS A CLERK IN THE DUBLIN TRUSTEE SAVINGS BANK. THAT WAS WERE I STARTED MY CAREER IN SOME SORT OF A FINANCIAL FIELD AND I CONTINUED IN THAT FIELD UNTIL 1945. IN 1945 I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO OUT TO THE MIDDLE EAST INTO A BANK, THE BANK OF IRAN, AND I SPENT THREE YEARS IN HAMARAN, TEHRAN. I CAME HOME AFTER THAT AND GOT MARRIED AND WAS INFLUENCED TO COME TO AUSTRALIA.

RAXWORTHY: ANY YOU LEARNED THE PERSIAN LANGUAGE DID YOU AT THAT TIME? THE URANIAN LANGUAGE?

STEPHENS: WELL IF I DIDN’T LEARN IT, I DIDN’T EAT. IT WAS AS SIMPLE AS THAT BECAUSE WE WERE DEALING PURELY WITH THE PERSIAN POPULATION. THERE’S A VERY SMALL EUROPEAN POPULATION LARGELY ASSOCIATED WITH THE ANGLO-IRANIAN OIL COMPANY AT THE TIME. BUT NO, YOU SPOKE PERSIAN AND THAT WAS IT. YOU SPOKE WITH YOUR CLIENTS IN THE BANK AND YOU SPOKE WITH YOUR SERVANTS AT HOME.

RAXWORTHY: HOW DID YOU GET OUT THERE? DID YOU GO BY BOAT?

STEPHENS: WE WENT BY SHIP TO HAIFA AND THEN CROSSED THE DESERT INTO BAGHDAD AND THEN ACROSS THE RATHER HILLY COUNTRY AS IT IS INTO IRAN.

RAXWORTHY: DID THAT DETERMINE YOUR LATER LIFE, WORKING THERE?

STEPHENS: NOT REALLY, NO. THE BANK IN IRAN WAS OPERATING UNDER A CHARTER FROM THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT AND AT THAT TIME IT WAS THE PERSIAN GOVERNMENT AND IT HAD A CERTAIN NUMBER OF YEARS TO RUN. AT THE END OF THAT PERIOD, THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT DECIDED THEY WOULD NO LONGER ALLOW THE FOREIGN BANK TO OPERATE IN FOREIGN CURRENCY AND FOREIGN EXCHANGE SO THERE WAS NOTHING FOR THE BANK TO DO SO THEY CLOSED UP AND THAT WAS IT. WE ALL WENT HOME.

RAXWORTHY: SO HOW DID YOU GET OUT TO AUSTRALIA?

STEPHENS: I CAME BY SHIP. I HAD A LOVELY SIX WEEKS ON A SHIP.

RAXWORTHY: DID YOU HAVE A GRADE OR DO YOU HAVE A JARVIN?

STEPHENS: NO, I AM AGRADED. I WAS INFLUENCED HERE AGAIN BY MY FATHER-IN-LAW, WHO HAD, DUE TO FIRST WAR INJURIES, HE COULDN’T STAND THE BRITISH/IRISH CLIMATE AND HE GOT OUT EVERY WINTER AND ONE WINTER HE’D COME TO AUSTRALIA AND ONE WINTER HE’D COME TO SOUTH AFRICA. FORTUNATELY HE WAS IN A BUSINESS WHICH ENABLED HIM TO DO THAT. BUT HE SPOKE SO HIGHLY OF AUSTRALIA. HE SPOKE SO HIGHLY OF THE POSSIBILITIES AND THE OPPORTUNITIES OF AUSTRALIA. LITTLE DID HE KNOW THAT HE WAS INFLUENCING BOTH HIS SON-IN-LAW AND HIS DAUGHTER AND I CAME HOME FROM MY JOB IN IRELAND ONE FRIDAY NIGHT AND SAID TO MY WIFE, “DARL, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO TO AUSTRALIA”?

SHE SAID “I WOULDN’T MIND”, SO WE WENT IN THE NEXT DAY AND BOOKED TWO SEATS, TWO PASSAGES ON THE “ORCHADES”.

RAXWORTHY: AND WHEN WAS THAT?

STEPHENS: THAT WAS IN 1950 AND I ARRIVED IN AUSTRALIA AND HAD THE MOST PECULIAR SHOCK OF MY LIFE. BECAUSE WE ARRIVED IN SYDNEY AND WE WERE WAITING FOR OUR LUGGAGE TO COME OFF AND WE LOOKED UP AND WE SAW OUR LUGGAGE IN A HOIST AND NOBODY WAS WORKING. WE HAD ARRIVED ON MELBOURNE CUP DAY AND MY LUGGAGE WAS SITTING UP IN THE HOIST WHILE THE RACE WAS RUNNING. NOBODY WORKED! THAT WAS SOMETHING QUITE FOREIGN.

RAXWORTHY: WELL THAT WAS A GOOD INTRODUCTION!

STEPHENS: IT WAS AN EXCELLENT INTRODUCTION. I’VE LOOKED FORWARD TO MELBOURNE CUP DAY SINCE THEN. THE IRISH LIKE HORSE RACING, ANYWAY.

RAXWORTHY: OH YES. SO WHAT JOB DID YOU GET FIRST?

STEPHENS: I WAS IN AUSTRALIA ABOUT 7 DAYS AND I WAS APPOINTED, I GOT A JOB WITH THE AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION IN SYDNEY, PITT STREET, AND THAT WAS IN THE CLERICAL DIVISION. AS I SAY, I WAS A DESK JOCKEY. I WAS WITH THEM IN SYDNEY FOR FOUR YEARS WHEN AN OPPORTUNITY CAME TO TRANSFER THROUGH A PROMOTION TO HOBART. I DID THAT. I WAS TRANSFERRED DOWN THERE AND I SPENT FOUR YEARS IN THAT OFFICE. AGAIN, AT THAT TIME ANOTHER FURTHER OPPORTUNITY CAME ALONG, A FURTHER PROMOTION AND THIS TIME IT WAS IN BRISBANE AND IN 1958 WE CAME TO BRISBANE DURING WHICH TIME WE HAD TWO CHILDREN.

RAXWORTHY: SO WHEN DID YOU FIRST HEAR ABOUT CREDIT UNIONS?

STEPHENS: I FIRST HEARD ABOUT CREDIT UNIONS IN BRISBANE. THE STAFF IN BRISBANE HAD HEARD RUMORS OF AN ORGANISATION WHICH HAD BEEN DEVELOPED IN THE SYDNEY OFFICE AND IT WAS VERY, VERY ATTRACTIVE TO US THAT THE BOYS IN THE SYDNEY OFFICE WERE CO-OPERATIVELY FUNDING THEIR OWN LOAN PROGRAM.

WE ASKED FROM OUR BRISBANE OFFICE, “CAN WE JOIN” BUT WE WERE TOLD NO, IT WOULDN’T BE POSSIBLE TO JOIN BECAUSE OF VARIOUS INTERSTATE LAWS AND DIFFERENT LAWS AND ONE THING AND ANOTHER. BUT THE COMMISSION THEMSELVES HAD BECOME VERY, VERY AWARE OF THE BENEFITS WHICH WE THEN LEARNED TO CALL IT A CREDIT UNION.

THE COMMISSION HAD BECOME VERY CONSCIOUS OF THE BENEFIT THAT THIS CREDIT UNION WAS PROVIDING FOR THE STAFF. A BENEFIT TO THE COMMISSION AS WELL AS THE STAFF BUT IT WAS COSTING THEM NOTHING. SO THE COMMISSION, THE AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION, FUNDED ONE OF THE STAFF, STAN ARNEIL, TO GO TO EACH STATE AND TO ESTABLISH A CREDIT UNION IN EACH CAPITAL CITY. THE AUSTRALIA BROADCASTING COMMISSION.

HE CAME UP AND HE HAD A FEW MEETINGS AND I’D KNOWN STAN FROM MY TIME IN THE SYDNEY OFFICE AND HE ASKED ME IF I WOULD BE WILLING TO TAKE ON THE BOOKS. I WON’T SAY WITH REGRET, BUT CERTAINLY WHEN I LOOK BACK AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME, I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THAT LITTLE QUESTION WAS GOING TO LEAD TO. NONE AT ALL.

RAXWORTHY: SO, CAN YOU REMEMBER THE FOUNDATION MEETING OF THE ABC?

STEPHENS: I CAN REMEMBER THE FOUNDATION MEETING OF THE ABC. THERE WERE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

RAXWORTHY: ABC STAFF, CREDIT UNION PEOPLE?

STEPHENS: THE ABC STAFF ASSOCIATION, QUEENSLAND CO-OPERATIVE CREDIT UNION LIMITED. I CAN REMEMBER IT VERY, VERY WELL.

WE ACTUALLY HAD THREE MEETINGS BECAUSE WE HAD THREE OFFICES. ONE WAS AT TOOWONG, THE OTHER WAS AT ALICE STREET WHERE THE RADIO STUDIOS WERE AND THE THIRD ONE WAS AT SOUTH BRISBANE IN THE TOWN HALL OF SOUTH BRISBANE WHERE OUR ORCHESTRAL STUDIO WAS HOUSED. WE HAD THREE INDIVIDUAL MEETINGS AND EACH OF THEM AGREED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE CREDIT UNION.

RAXWORTHY: WERE YOU AT ALL THREE MEETINGS?

STEPHENS: I WAS AT ALL THREE MEETINGS, YES. I WAS AT ALL THREE MEETINGS.

RAXWORTHY: AND WERE THEY ALL ADDRESSED BY STAN ARNEIL?

STEPHENS: THEY WERE ADDRESSED BY STAN ARNEIL. EVERY ONE OF THEM, YES. AND NEEDLESS TO SAY THERE WAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SKEPTICISM ABOUT AMONG SOME AND THERE WAS ONE PARTICULAR GENTLEMAN, I’LL NEVER FORGET. HE ASKED VERY MANY PERTINENT QUESTIONS. HE WAS A GENTLEMAN OF EUROPEAN EXTRACTION, A MUSICIAN. HE WAS THE FIRST GENTLEMAN, IN THE AFTERNOON OF THIS FORMATION DAY TO COME OVER AND PUT (IF I’M NOT MISTAKEN) IT WAS ONE THOUSAND POUNDS, (AT THAT TIME POUNDS) INTO THE CREDIT UNION. SO WE CONVINCED HIM, OR STAN CONVINCED HIM.

IT WAS A REMARKABLE EXPERIENCE, IT REALLY WAS AND THE WAY STAN PUT IT, IT WAS OBVIOUS OF HIS COMPLETE AND TOTAL CONVICTION THAT THIS WAS THE WAY THAT PEOPLE COULD IN FACT FUND THEIR OWN CREDIT REQUIREMENTS. HE CONVINCED ME AND IT WENT FROM THERE.

RAXWORTHY: SO WERE YOU ONE OF THE DIRECTORS OR WERE YOU A SECRETARY OR TREASURER?

STEPHENS: I WAS SECRETARY, TREASURER, DIRECTOR. A DIRECTOR WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY OF SECRETARY AND TREASURER. COMPLETELY HAND KEPT BOOKS.

RAXWORTHY: AND DID YOU HAVE TO WORK FOR ALL THREE BRANCHES?

STEPHENS: NO THERE WAS JUST THE ONE CREDIT UNION BECAUSE IT WAS ALL ADMINISTERED BY BRISBANE. THE GENERAL MANAGER, THE MANAGER IN BRISBANE, THE WHOLE OFFICE. IT WAS JUST ONE UNIT AND WE HAD A PAYROLL WHICH WAS MARVELOUS. FROM DAY ONE, WE HAD A PAYROLL DEDUCTION SYSTEM, SO THEY WERE ALL ON IT.

RAXWORTHY: SO WHERE YOU ABLE TO WORK DURING WORKING HOURS FOR THE CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: YES, YES. THE COMMISSION WERE VERY GOOD IN THIS REGARD. AS I SAY, THEY SAW IT AS AN IMMENSE BENEFIT FOR STAFF WITHOUT ANY REQUIREMENT OF THE COMMISSION TO CONTRIBUTE SO THERE WAS NO PROBLEM. NINETY PERCENT WAS DONE IN MY OWN TIME AND IN MY LUNCH HOURS AND WEEKENDS AT HOME I’D DO THE BOOKS.

RAXWORTHY: SO IT WAS ALL HAND DONE? WAS IT IN BOOKS OR WERE YOU KALAMAZOO SYSTEM OR WHAT?

STEPHENS: JUST A FLIP LEAF LEDGER. YES THE LOT.

RAXWORTHY: AND DID YOU HAVE A CREDIT COMMITTEE?

STEPHENS: YES, WE HAD A CREDIT COMMITTEE. THREE PEOPLE WHO WOULD EXAMINE EVERY LOAN. NOW THEY DID NOT MEET AT ANY PARTICULAR POINT. IF THERE WAS A LOAN THAT HAD TO BE DEALT WITH, A TELEPHONE CALL AND WE’D PUT THE THREE OF THEM TOGETHER AND THAT LOAN WOULD BE DEALT WITH THERE AND THEN.

RAXWORTHY: WAS THERE A SUPERVISORY COMMITTEE STRAIGHT AWAY?

STEPHENS: NOT STRAIGHT AWAY, NO. THAT DIDN’T COME UNTIL A LITTLE BIT LATER AND REALLY THE SUPERVISORY COMMITTEE, AS I SAW IT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME, IT WAS SOMETHING WHICH THE BOARD THEMSELVES WERE MORE COMPETENT TO HANDLE AND THERE WASN’T THE VOLUME IN THE EARLY STAGES TO WARRANT ANOTHER COMMITTEE.

WE HAD THE CREDIT COMMITTEE, WE HAD THE BOARD AND THAT WAS IT.

RAXWORTHY: WHO WAS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE ABC QUEENSLAND CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: THE ORIGINAL CHAIRMAN WAS CLIVE HARBURG. HE WAS THE SPORTING SUPERVISOR AND HE WAS OUR FIRST CHAIRMAN.

RAXWORTHY: AND WERE YOU PART TIME AT FIRST ON THE CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: NO, I WAS NEVER EMPLOYED BY THE CREDIT UNION IN ANY FORM OR CAPACITY OTHER THAN ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY.

RAXWORTHY: I DON’T MEAN THAT. I MEAN, YOU WERE ALLOWED TO DO CREDIT UNION WORK IN WORKING HOURS, BUT HOW MUCH OF YOUR TIME WAS ALLOWED……………?

STEPHENS: OH NO, IT WASN’T A QUESTION OF WAS I ALLOWED. IF SOMEBODY CAME INTO THE OFFICE AND SAID, LOOK I WANT TO PUT A LOAN APPLICATION IN, SURE, WE’D TAKE IT. BUT THERE WAS NO COMMITMENT OF MINE IN TERMS OF TIME TO THE CREDIT UNION. THAT WAS COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY. IT WAS REGARDED AS BEING DONE OUTSIDE MY OFFICE HOURS.

RAXWORTHY: SO HOW LONG WERE YOU A DIRECTOR AND WORKING, AND HOW LONG WERE YOU KEEPING THE BOOKS OF THE CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: I KEPT THE BOOKS FOR ABOUT FOUR YEARS AND AT THAT TIME WE APPOINTED A GIRL TO TAKE IT OVER. IT WAS A VERY RESTRICTED BOND OF MEMBERSHIP, IT WAS PURELY THE ABC. WE DID EXTEND IT TO THE REGIONAL STATIONS WHICH WAS TOWNSVILLE AND CAIRNS AND SO ON, BUT INITIALLY FOR THE FIRST NUMBER OF YEARS IT WAS LIMITED TO BRISBANE GENERALLY.

I KEPT IT FOR ABOUT FOUR YEARS AND THEN WE APPOINTED A GIRL.

RAXWORTHY: YES. DID YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY GETTING INSURANCE IN THE FIRST INSTANCE?

STEPHENS: NO, WE DIDN’T HAVE ANY DIFFICULTIES. WE DIDN’T HAVE INSURANCE AS WE KNOW IT TODAY TO THE SAME DEGREE. THE ONLY INSURANCE WE WERE ABLE TO OBTAIN IN THE VERY EARLY STAGES WAS LOAN PROTECTION INSURANCE. THAT WAS ALL. THAT WAS THE ONLY INSURANCE WE HAD. NO SUCH THING AS FIDELITY INSURANCE OR ANY OF THAT IN THE EARLY DAYS.

RAXWORTHY: SO WHEN THE FOUR YEARS WAS UP HAD YOU ALREADY BECOME INVOLVED IN THE LEAGUE? YOU HADN’T BEEN INVOLVED IN STARTING THE LEAGUE AT THAT TIME?

STEPHENS: THE LEAGUE STARTED IN 1964. LEADING UP TO THAT THERE WAS THE DEVELOPMENT OF SOME OTHER CREDIT UNIONS, AND THERE WERE SOME OTHER SOCIETIES WHICH WERE REGISTERED UNDER THE CO-OPERATIVE, ANOTHER SOCIETIES ACT WHICH WAS THEN THE ONLY ACT WE COULD REGISTER UNDER. THERE WERE SOME OTHER SOCIETIES THERE WHICH, BY THEIR NATURE, BECAME A CREDIT UNION. I CAN THINK OF ONE, IT WAS THE RED COMB THRIFT AND LOAN SOCIETY. THEY BECAME A CREDIT UNION. THEY DIDN’T CHANGE THEIR NAME BUT THEY BECAME A CREDIT UNION AND WERE ONE OF THE CREDIT UNIONS WHICH ASSISTED IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE LEAGUE.

RAXWORTHY: WHAT ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN CREDIT UNION? YOU KEPT OUT OF THINGS? THEY WERE THE FIRST ONE, THEY DIDN’T PAY INTEREST AND THEY DIDN’T CHARGE ANY?

STEPHENS: WHO WAS THIS?

RAXWORTHY: THE CHRISTIAN CREDIT UNION IN BRISBANE.

STEPHENS: THEY DIDN’T HAVE A SYSTEM OF CHARGING INTEREST, NO. BUT ONE HAS TO BE REASONABLY PRACTICAL IN THESE THINGS. YOU CANNOT RUN ANY FORM OF CO-OPERATIVE UNLESS THERE IS SOME WAY TO GENERATE THE INCOME TO MEET THE OVERHEADS. NOW THERE ARE GOING TO BE OVERHEADS IN ANY ORGANISATION.

RAXWORTHY: WELL DO YOU KNOW HOW THEY DID IT?

STEPHENS: NO I DON’T.

RAXWORTHY: WELL THIS IS HOW THEY DID IT. I SUPPOSE I SHOULDN’T BE TELLING YOU ON TAPE BUT WHAT THEY DID IS THIS. THEY HAD A LEVY WHICH THEY USED TO PAY FOR THEIR EXPENSES AND THEY USED TO CHANNEL THEIR BUYING POWER THROUGH THE CREDIT UNION AND TAKE THE DISCOUNTS.

STEPHENS: YES, WELL WE’RE TALKING THERE ABOUT A FORM OF TRADING CO-OPERATIVE.

RAXWORTHY: WELL THEY WERE, YES, RIGHT. THEY USED TO OPERATE ONE EVENING A WEEK AS A SOCIAL EVENT TOO.

STEPHENS: RIGHT, WELL THAT WAS NOTHING LIKE WE WERE DOING. THAT BECAME A SIDELINE LATER ON.

RAXWORTHY: BUT THEY WERE THE FIRST.

STEPHENS: THEY WERE, YES THEY PROBABLY WERE, THE CHRISTIAN CREDIT UNION. I DON’T KNOW WHERE IT WAS.

RAXWORTHY: IT WAS AT HERSTON.

STEPHENS: WELL THERE WAS ONE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN EVEN A LITTLE BIT EARLIER THAN THAT AND IT WAS DOWN IN THE VALLEY BUT I’M NOT SURE. ONE HEARS WHAT WAS THE FIRST CREDIT UNION AND I REALLY DON’T KNOW.

RAXWORTHY: WELL ACCORDING TO THE REGISTRATION THE CHRISTIAN ONE WAS THE FIRST. IT WAS CALLED A CREDIT UNION. IT WAS CALLED A CREDIT UNION CO-OPERATIVE

STEPHENS: AND IT WAS REGISTERED UNDER THE CO-OPERATIVE AND OTHER SOCIETIES ACT?

RAXWORTHY: IT WAS, YEAH. AND IT WAS REGISTERED BEFORE UNIVERSAL IN NEW SOUTH WALES, ABOUT TWO WEEKS BEFORE.

STEPHENS: RIGHT, I SEE.

RAXWORTHY: BUT OF COURSE THERE WAS A LOT OF OTHER SO-CALLED SAVINGS AND LOANS SOCIETIES.

STEPHENS: WHEN WAS THAT CREDIT UNION REGISTERED?

RAXWORTHY: I THINK IT’S THE 7TH SEPTEMBER IN 1946?

STEPHENS: 1946. ‘CAUSE THE CLERKS CREDIT UNION WAS FORMED VERY EARLY IN THE PIECE ALSO.

RAXWORTHY: WHERE WAS THAT?

STEPHENS: IN BRISBANE. BUT IT WENT OUT OF EXISTENCE FOR A WHILE OR IT WENT INTO LIMBO AND IT WAS RESURRECTED AGAIN IN THE 1950’S.

RAXWORTHY: IT WASN’T DOWN IN THE REGISTER OF CO-OPERATIVES AT THAT TIME. AT ANY RATE, I ONLY SPENT A DAY IN THE ARCHIVES BUT I DID GO THROUGH ALL THE REGISTER.

NOW, YOUR INVOLVEMENT. DID YOU BECOME INVOLVED IN STARTING OTHER CREDIT UNIONS AND HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

STEPHENS: WELL, VERY LARGELY IT CAME ABOUT BY THE BEST PROMOTION IN THE WORLD, WORD OF MOUTH. MEMBERS OF THE ABC WERE VERY CLOSELY ALIGNED WITH THE TECHNICAL STAFF OF THE POST OFFICE BECAUSE OF THE RADIO AND THE TRANSMISSION AND THEY WOULD SPEAK TO SOME OF THE TECHNICAL PEOPLE ABOUT HOW THEY GOT A LOAN FROM THE CREDIT UNION. MARVELOUS. THE TECHNICIANS THEN GOT TOGETHER AND THEY DECIDED THAT, WELL, IF THE ABC CAN DO IT, WE CAN DO IT AND THEY ASKED IF THE ABC, THE CREDIT UNION, WOULD HELP THEM GET A CREDIT UNION GOING. SO OBVIOUSLY OF COURSE WE SAID WE WOULD AND I WAS THE ONE WHO WENT OUT AND DID OUT.

RAXWORTHY: DID THEY GIVE YOU TIME OFF TO GO AND DO IT?

STEPHENS: NO, NO THIS WAS ALL DONE AT NIGHT. THE POSTAL TECHNICIANS CREDIT UNION WAS FORMED, ONE OF THE VERY EARLY ONES TO BE FORMED AFTER THE ABC IN 1959. WE FORMED THE ABC CREDIT UNION ON THE 13TH JULY 1959. THAT’S THE DATE. IT’S NOT THE DATE OF THE REGISTRATION BUT THAT’S THE DATE THE FIRST MONEYS WERE RECEIPTED INTO THE CREDIT UNION. THAT WAS THE DATE I MAINTAIN IT WAS FORMED.

THEN FROM THERE YOU HAD THE POSTAL TECHNICIANS TALKING TO THE POSTAL PEOPLE THROUGH THE UNION SYSTEM. SO THE POSTAL WORKS, THE POST PEOPLE, THEY WANTED A CREDIT UNION SO THEY ASKED THE POSTAL TECHNICIANS AND THE POSTAL TECHNICIANS CAME BACK AND SAID WOULD WE GET SO AND SO TO GO AND TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT. SO OVER WE GO AND WE TALKED TO THEM ABOUT IT.

AND OVER THE NEXT NUMBER OF YEARS THERE WERE A COUPLE MORE CREDIT UNION FORMED. THERE’RE NOT PROBABLY IN EXISTENCE ANY MORE THROUGH THE PASSAGE OF TIME AND THE WAY TECHNOLOGY HAS TAKEN OVER AND IN 1964 WE FORMED THE CREDIT UNION LEAGUE AND THAT STAGE AGAIN I COULDN’T BE ABSOLUTELY SURE HOW MANY CREDIT UNIONS WERE THERE BUT WE HAD TO HAVE AT LEAST SEVEN. BECAUSE WE COULDN’T FORM A LEAGUE WITHOUT THAT.

RAXWORTHY: I NOTICED THAT YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH THE START OF THE QUEENSLAND POLICE CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: I WAS, YES. AGAIN, THEY WENT THROUGH A SERIES OF DISCUSSIONS AND MEETINGS. I BELIEVE THEIR FEDERAL, NOT THE FEDERAL BODY BUT THEY HAD A CONFERENCE WHERE A MOTION WAS PUT FORWARD THAT THE POLICE FORM A CREDIT UNION. I THINK THAT WAS SOMEWHERE IN THE VERY EARLY 60’S BUT IT LAY IN LIMBO FOR A LITTLE WHILE AND IT WAS REVIVED AGAIN IN 1964. AT THAT STAGE, I WAS ASKED IF I’D GO AND ADDRESS A MEETING OVER AT THE WOOLOONGABBA POLICE STATION WHICH I DID AND THEY, AT THAT POINT IN TIME, PASSED A MOTION THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE A CREDIT UNION.

NOW THIS WAS TO SOME DEGREE, USURPING THE MOTION AT THE CONFERENCE BUT NEVERTHELESS IT WAS THERE, IT WAS ON THE BOOKS AND THAT WAS WHERE IT CAME FROM.

I HAD SEVERAL MORE MEETINGS WITH A FEW OF THE POLICE FELLOWS WHO LATER BECAME THE DIRECTORS OVER AT THE POLICE STATION AGAIN AT WOOLLOONGABBA AND WE WENT THROUGH IT AND WE TALKED ABOUT IT AND HOW IT WAS AND HOW IT WORKED, THE LOT. AND WE FINALLY HAD THE FORMATION MEETING, THE CREDIT UNION WAS FORMED AND FINISHED IN ONE NIGHT AND I DON’T THINK WE EVER FAILED TO FORM A CREDIT UNION ONCE WE SPOKE TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE. NEVER.

RAXWORTHY: DID YOU MEET MERV CALLAGHAN THAT NIGHT?

STEPHENS: MET MERV CALLAGHAN BEFORE THE ACTUAL FORMATION MEETING. MET PROBABLY FIVE OF THE FINAL BOARD WHO WERE TOGETHER IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE ORGANISING OF THE MEETING. YES. SO I’VE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH MERV CALLAGHAN AND THE POLICE CREDIT UNION. LATER MERV CALLAGHAN, IN HIS CAPACITY AS BOTH A DIRECTOR AND LATER AS A CHAIRMAN OF THE LEAGUE, I’VE HAD A LONG ASSOCIATION WITH MERV. YES.

RAXWORTHY: NOW, IT SEEMS THAT THE PUSH FOR A NUMBER OF THESE CREDIT UNIONS CAME FROM UNION ACTION, UNION OR ASSOCIATION ACTION AS IT DID APPARENTLY WITHIN THE ABC STAFF ASSOCIATION AND ALSO THE ACOA?

STEPHENS: YES.

RAXWORTHY: DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE START OF ANY OF THOSE?

STEPHENS: I SUPPOSE, AGAIN AS I TRY TO RECALL, I DIDN’T WITH THE ACOA, THE ADMINISTRATIVE AND CLERICAL OFFICERS ASSOCIATION. THEY WERE FORMED OUTSIDE THE LEAGUE. COMMONWEALTH PUBLIC SERVICES WAS FORMED OUTSIDE THE LEAGUE. THEY WENT THEIR OWN ALL THE TIME OR THANK GOODNESS, THAT SITUATION HAS BEEN REVERSED NOW AND THEY ARE ALL IN THE LEAGUE. BUT NO, I COULD LIST OFF CREDIT UNIONS THAT HAVE BEEN FORMED UNDER BOTH MYSELF WHEN I WAS A VOLUNTEER AND THOSE WHICH WERE FORMED LATER ON. AT ONE STAGE, IN QUEENSLAND WE HAD 68 CREDIT UNIONS. WE HAVE NOTHING LIKE THAT TODAY BECAUSE AGAIN, AMALGAMATIONS, CONSOLIDATIONS, RATIONALISATION AND MOSTLY TECHNOLOGY HAS MADE IT POSSIBLE.

RAXWORTHY: AS FAR AS THE INDIVIDUAL CREDIT UNIONS FORMING THE LEAGUE, CAN YOU REMEMBER HOW THE PUSH FIRST STARTED AND FROM WHERE IT CAME AND HOW YOU BECAME INVOLVED?

STEPHENS: BEFORE THE QUEENSLAND LEAGUE?

RAXWORTHY: YES.

STEPHENS: ONCE AGAIN WE HAD A MODEL. THE MODEL WAS THE NEW SOUTH WALES LEAGUE. WE WERE ABLE TO LEARN FROM NEW SOUTH WALES THE VALUE, ONCE AGAIN, OF CO-OPERATION AMONGST CREDIT UNIONS JUST EQUALLY AS IMPORTANT AS CO-OPERATION AMONGST INDIVIDUALS AND IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE EXAMPLE WE HAD THERE THAT WE SAW AND WE WERE ABLE TO EVALUATE THE MERITS OF HAVING A LEAGUE AND IT WAS FROM THERE THAT WE DECIDED THAT THE LEAGUE WAS GOING TO BE A FURTHER TOOL FOR THE FURTHER PROMOTION AND DEVELOPMENT OF THE CREDIT UNION MOVEMENT IN THE STATE OF QUEENSLAND.

RAXWORTHY: CAN YOU REMEMBER WHO FIRST WENT OVERSEAS ON A CUNA? DIRECTORSHIP FROM QUEENSLAND?

STEPHENS: I THINK IT WAS JACK ROSS.

RAXWORTHY: I THINK YOU’RE RIGHT.

STEPHENS: I THINK IT WAS JACK ROSS.

RAXWORTHY: AND DO YOU REMEMBER ROUGHLY WHEN?

STEPHENS: I THINK HE WENT ABOUT 1966. I WENT TO THE STATES BY INVITATION OF CUNA INTERNATIONAL IN 1965 AND I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO VISIT FIVE LEAGUES OVER THERE.

RAXWORTHY: IF YOU WENT IN 1965, THAT’S BEFORE JACK ROSS, ISN’T IT?

STEPHENS: OH YES, I WENT BEFORE JACK. BUT YOU SAID AS A DIRECTOR TO CUNA. I WENT PURELY AS A PRIVATELY SPONSORED TRIP BY INVITATION OF AND AT THE COST TO CUNA INTERNATIONAL. IT COST US NOTHING. WE IN THE QUEENSLAND LEAGUE, TOM DYRE, JACK ROSS AND THE DIRECTORSHIP OF THE LEAGUE WROTE TO CUNA AND SAID WE WOULD LIKE MR STEPHENS TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO STUDY FOR EVEN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, THE OPERATIONS OF VARIOUS FACETS OF THE CREDIT UNIONS IN THE STATES. SO THEY BROUGHT ME OVER AND TOOK ME THROUGH FIVE LEAGUES IN THE STATES.

RAXWORTHY: CLARRIE MURPHY AND KEITH YOUNG HAD BEEN OVER ON STUDY TOURS BEFORE, HAD THEY?

STEPHENS: THEY HAD BEEN OVER A LOT EARLIER, YES.

RAXWORTHY: RIGHT, SO WHEN YOU WENT OVER, WHERE DID YOU GO?

STEPHENS: I WENT FIRSTLY TO THE MADDISON WISCONSIN WHICH IS THE HOME OF CUNA INTERNATIONAL AND CUNA MUTUAL. I WENT FROM THERE TO TORONTO TO THE LEAGUE THERE. THEN I CAME BACK DOWN TO PHILADELPHIA TO THE LEAGUE IN PENNSYLVANIA AND FROM THERE I WENT UP TO NEW YORK TO THE NEW YORK LEAGUE. SO I ONLY ENDED UP VISITING FOUR RATHER THAN FIVE BUT THE TIME WAS EXTENDED TO ALLOW ME TO DO THIS AND I HAD SOMETHING LIKE SIX WEEKS IN THE STATES GOING AROUND SEEING THESE VARIOUS LEAGUES AND MORE SPECIFICALLY SEEING COMMUNITY CREDIT UNIONS. BECAUSE IT APPEARED TO US IN QUEENSLAND THAT THE NATURE OF THE STATE AND THE DIVERSITY OF THE POPULATION AND THE LOCATION OF THE POPULATION, COMMUNITY CREDIT UNIONS WERE GOING TO PLAY A VERY SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE MOVEMENT IN QUEENSLAND.

RAXWORTHY: DO YOU KNOW WHERE MUTUAL CREDIT UNIONS STARTED AND HAD THEY STARTED IN THE STATES WHEN YOU WENT OVER ON THAT STUDY TOUR?

STEPHENS: WHEN YOU SAY MUTUAL, YOU MEAN COMMUNITY DO YOU?

RAXWORTHY: I MEAN MIXED COMMUNITY AND INDUSTRIAL…?

STEPHENS: WELL CERTAINLY THERE WERE SOME MIXED COMMUNITY AND INDUSTRIAL IN THE STATES. I CAN RECALL ONE LITTLE PLACE AT HAMILTON WE WENT TO. IT WAS A TOWN OUTSIDE ONTARIO WHERE THERE WAS ONE MAJOR INDUSTRY. THERE HAD BEEN ONE BANK BUT WHEN THE INDUSTRY HAD BECOME INVOLVED IN THE CREDIT UNION IT PROBABLY TOOK SOMETHING LIKE 40% OF THE POTENTIAL WORKFORCE. THE BANK CLOSED AND THE CREDIT UNION THEN BECAME COMMUNITY INDUSTRY. A COMBINATION OF THE TWO. NOW THAT WAS BACK IN ‘65 SO THEY MUST HAVE BEEN THERE THEN.

RAXWORTHY: SO WHEN YOU CAME BACK, WAS THAT WHEN THE LEAGUE STARTED?

STEPHENS: NO, THE LEAGUE HAD STARTED IN ‘64. AGAIN, WE WERE IN THE POSITION OF NOT HAVING PAID EMPLOYEES. THE LEAGUE DIDN’T HAVE PAID EMPLOYEES UNTIL 1968.

RAXWORTHY: WHERE WAS THE LEAGUE OFFICE?

STEPHENS: THE FIRST LEAGUE OFFICE WAS IN MY HOME. ONCE AGAIN, I WAS KEEPING THE BOOKS OF THE LEAGUE AND IT WAS IN THOSE EARLY DAYS THAT THE LEAGUE CENTRAL WAS DEVELOPED. WE STARTED OUR SAVINGS PROTECTION FUND AGAIN, ALL ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS AS WE BUILT IT UP.

RAXWORTHY: SO WHERE DID YOU GET THE INFORMATION FOR THIS CENTRAL?

STEPHENS: FROM OUR MODEL, NEW SOUTH WALES AND ALSO I HAD SEEN CENTRALS OPERATE IN ONTARIO, PARTICULARLY IN THE LEAGUE THERE IN CANADA.

RAXWORTHY: RIGHT. DID YOU SEE DERMIT RYAN AND KEN MILLER’S REPORT WHEN THEY CAME BACK?

STEPHENS: NO, I DID NOT. I SAW NONE OF THOSE REPORTS WHATSOEVER.

RAXWORTHY: WHAT ABOUT THESE EARLY? PROTECTION WORDS CALLED THE SAVINGS STABILISATION FUND REPORT IN THOSE DAYS?

STEPHENS: WE NEVER CALLED OURS ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE SAVINGS GUARANTEED FUND. THAT WAS WHAT IT WAS CALLED.

NO I’M SORRY, I THINK IT WAS CALLED THE SAVINGS PROTECTION FUND, ACTUALLY. NUMBER ONE IT BECAME LATER ON.

RAXWORTHY: WHY WERE THERE TWO?

STEPHENS: WELL I DON’T REALLY KNOW WHY THERE WAS TWO. THE SECOND ONE WAS FORMED AFTER I HAD VACATED MY OFFICIAL POSITION WITH THE LEAGUE?

RAXWORTHY: NOW THE OFFICIAL EXPLANATION IS, AND PERHAPS IF I TOLD YOU, PERHAPS YOU COULD COMMENT ON IT. THE OFFICIAL EXPLANATION IS THAT THEY WERE SET UP AS A PROPER SYSTEM. THE FIRST SAVINGS PROTECTION FUNDS, A PROPER SYSTEM WHICH PAID CERTAIN RATES OF INTEREST TO CERTAIN CREDIT UNIONS AND THEREFORE IT HAD A PARTICULAR AMOUNT OF CAPITAL. IT HAD A PARTICULAR INTEREST THAT HAD TO BE PAID. WELL APPARENTLY THERE WAS A LARGE CALL ON IT AND SO THERE WAS A LOT OF MONEY OUT AND THEY HAD TO FIND SOME MORE CAPITAL SO RATHER THAN TRY TO WORK OUT THE PROBLEM OF THEIR OBLIGATIONS AND MORE CAPITAL, THEY STARTED A SECOND FUND. I DON’T KNOW WHETHER THIS IS RIGHT?

STEPHENS: WELL PERHAPS IF THEY’D STAYED WITH THE SINGLE FUND, THEY WOULD HAVE HAD A LOT MORE IN IT AND THEY WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO FORM A SECOND FUND BECAUSE THE INCOME WHICH THAT ORIGINAL ONE EARNED WAS NOT DISTRIBUTED, IT WAS RETAINED FOR THE PURPOSE OF BEATING A CRISIS.

RAXWORTHY: SO WHAT MONEY WAS DISTRIBUTED?

STEPHENS: NO MONEY WAS DISTRIBUTED FROM SAVINGS PROTECTION FUND NUMBER ONE IN THE WAY OF DIVIDENDS.

RAXWORTHY: FOLLOWING ON FROM TAPE ONE, I THINK YOU WERE ACTUALLY SAYING THAT THEY COULD HAVE STUCK WITH ONE SAVINGS PROTECTION FUND?

STEPHENS: I THINK THEY POSSIBLY COULD HAVE STUCK WITH A SINGLE FUND. OBVIOUSLY IT MAY HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN REARRANGED TO A DEGREE TO ENSURE THAT THERE WAS A CONSTANT BUILD UP IN THE FUND. BUT IT WAS NEVER INTENDED THAT ANY MONEYS WOULD BE DISTRIBUTED FROM THAT FUND BY WAY OF INTEREST OR ANY OTHER FORM OF PAYMENT OTHER THAN TO MEET A CRISIS.

THE SECOND FUND WHICH WAS SET UP HAD A DIFFERENT MOTIVE ALTOGETHER. IT WAS TO ATTRACT FUNDS, AGAIN ON THE BASIS OF GENERATING AN INCOME FOR THE CREDIT UNIONS WHICH MADE THE CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE FUND.

I WOULDN’T WISH TO COMMENT AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THAT WAS DESIRABLE OR NOT BUT CERTAINLY THE INTENTION OF THE SAVINGS PROTECTION FUND WAS TO PROTECT THE SAVINGS OF THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS AGAINST A POSSIBLE CRISIS. IT WAS STARTED VERY EARLY IN THE LIFE OF THE LEAGUE WHEN ANY CRISIS WHICH MIGHT HAVE ARISEN WOULD HAVE BEEN RELATIVELY SMALL. IT WAS INTENDED TO CONTINUE TO GENERATE ITS OWN INCOME AND RETAIN THAT INCOME AGAINST THAT POSSIBILITY.

OBVIOUSLY WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME THE FUND WOULD GROW, THE INCOME WOULD GROW, THE TOTAL FUND WOULD GROW AND THEN IF A CRISIS DID COME ALONG, IT IS QUITE PROBABLE THAT THE FUND WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE CAPABLE OF MEETING THAT COST.

RAXWORTHY: YES. WERE YOU INVOLVED WHEN THERE WERE A LOT OF AMALGAMATIONS AND LOSSES?

STEPHENS: NO I WASN’T BUT I KNOW A FAIR BIT ABOUT THEM BECAUSE I WAS SITTING ON THE OUTSIDE IN ANOTHER CREDIT UNION AND I WAS ALWAYS A PARTICIPANT OR AT THE LEAGUE MEETINGS SO WE DID GET OUR REGULAR REPORTS.

RAXWORTHY: WHEN YOU FIRST WENT INTO THE LEAGUE, WERE YOU ON THE BOARD?

STEPHENS: WHEN THE LEAGUE WAS FIRST FORMED, YES, I WAS ON THE BOARD. I WAS CHAIRMAN FOR A WHILE.

RAXWORTHY: I THOUGHT SO. I’D BEEN READING THE MINUTES.

STEPHENS: I WAS NOT CHAIRMAN FOR VERY LONG. I HANDED THE CHAIRMANSHIP TO MERV CALLAGHAN AND I BECAME THE SECRETARY. WE WERE STILL IN THE VOLUNTARY CAPACITY AT THIS STAGE AND IT WASN’T UNTIL, AS I SAY, A LITTLE BIT LATER IN THE LEAGUES LIFE THAT (A) WE GOT STAFF AND (B) THAT WE GOT ANY FORM OF PREMISES. A LITTLE PREMISES.

RAXWORTHY: CAN YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST STAFF?

STEPHENS: YES, I WAS THE FIRST STAFF? I WAS APPOINTED TO A POSITION WHICH WAS CORRECTLY NAMED “LEAGUE REPRESENTATIVE”. MY FUNCTION WAS TO CONTINUE THE PROGRAM OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF CREDIT UNIONS IN QUEENSLAND AND THAT WE DID. WE RENTED A LITTLE BIT OF SPACE IN AN OFFICE IN CLAYFIELD IN BRISBANE AND NOT VERY LONG AFTER THAT WE EMPLOYED OUR FIRST FEMALE ASSISTANT AS I SPENT MOST OF MY TIME ON THE ROAD

RAXWORTHY: AND DO YOU REMEMBER WHO SHE WAS?

STEPHENS: YES, I DO. MRS BARBARA HARMER.

RAXWORTHY: IS SHE STILL AROUND?

STEPHENS: YES, I BELIEVE SHE IS STILL AROUND. NOT IN THE MOVEMENT. HER HUSBAND WAS A SCHOOL TEACHER AND SHE AND HER HUSBAND LATER PURCHASED A NURSERY ON BRIBIE ISLAND AND I BELIEVE THEY’RE STILL THERE.

RAXWORTHY: AND YOU, WHEN YOU WERE ON THE ROAD, YOU WENT RIGHT UP NORTH AND FORMED A NUMBER OF CREDIT UNIONS UP THERE?

STEPHENS: THE MOST DISTANT CREDIT UNION I HAD ASSOCIATION WITH WAS THE MOUNT ISA MINES EMPLOYEES CREDIT UNION WHICH IS NOW CALLED THE NORTHERN CREDIT UNION. RIGHT OUT IN MOUNT ISA.

RAXWORTHY: WAS CLIFF DURY INVOLVED FROM THE START?

STEPHENS: CLIFF DURY WAS INVOLVED FROM THE VERY START. HE WAS THE CHAIRMAN.

RAXWORTHY: THERE’S ONE QUESTION I HAVE TO ASK YOU. I ASKED MERV AND HE DIDN’T ANSWER THE QUESTION. I DON’T THINK HE HEARD IT AND THAT WAS, HOW DID IT HAPPEN THAT CLIFF DURY BECAME PRESIDENT OF AFCUL?

STEPHENS: WELL I CAN ONLY ASSUME THAT HE WAS ELECTED CHAIRMAN OF AFCUL.

RAXWORTHY: OH, HE WAS. BUT HE WAS EVERYTHING ALL OF A SUDDEN AND THEN HE WENT BACK TO…………

STEPHENS: HE WAS ALSO A VERY COMPETENT PERSON! A VERY BRILLIANT MAN IN HIS OWN RIGHT AND ALTHOUGH HE CAME FROM A VERY INDUSTRIAL MANAGEMENT POSITION. FROM A VERY HIGH MANAGEMENT POSITION, HE WAS A VERY, VERY DEDICATED CREDIT UNION MAN. AND I BELIEVE HE WAS A VERY WORTHY PRESIDENT OF AFCUL.

RAXWORTHY: I HAVEN’T HEARD OF ANYTHING AGAINST HIM IN THAT SENSE AND NOBODY WAS CRITICISING HIM BUT IT JUST SEEMS TO ME, OBSERVING, NORMALLY IF YOU CAME ON AFCUL, YOU WOULD COME ON AS AN ALTERNATE, THEN YOU WOULD BE A DELEGATE AND THEN THE NEXT THING YOU MIGHT BE A VICE-PRESIDENT. BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN HE CAME ON AND THERE HE WAS.

STEPHENS: WELL I THINK HE WAS HIGHLY RESPECTED BY THE REPRESENTATIVES OF ALL STATES AND I BELIEVE THEY RECOGNISED HIS CAPACITY AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPERIENCE.

RAXWORTHY: RIGHT, WELL I’M GOING AHEAD OF YOUR EXPERIENCE NOW, AREN’T I BECAUSE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU WERE GOING AROUND AS FIELD OFFICER. SO WHAT ACTUALLY WERE YOU DOING?

STEPHENS: FORMING CREDIT UNIONS. THE CHARTER I WAS GIVEN WAS TO FORM CREDIT UNIONS AND WE DID IT LARGELY IN THE INDUSTRIAL AREA, IN FACT TOTALLY IN THE INDUSTRIAL SCENE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF TOOWOOMBA WHERE WE FORMED A PARISH CREDIT UNION AND A HOSPITAL CREDIT UNION WHICH APPEARED TO BE SLIGHTLY OUT OF THE NORM. BUT OTHERWISE THEY WERE VERY, VERY LARGE. THEY WERE ALMOST TOTALLY INDUSTRIAL CREDIT UNIONS AND AGAIN THE REQUESTS ALWAYS CAME FROM THE INDUSTRIAL SIDE TO US. AGAIN, THE PROMOTION WAS ALWAYS THROUGH WORD OF MOUTH.

RAXWORTHY: THE NURSES CREDIT UNION AS OPPOSED TO TOOWOOMBA. WHERE WAS THAT STARTED?

STEPHENS: THE NURSES CREDIT UNION WAS FORMED ORIGINALLY AMONG THE AUSTRALIAN NURSING FEDERATION WHICH WAS AGAIN AN INDUSTRIAL UNION AND THEY FORMED THEIR LITTLE CREDIT UNION THROUGH A VERY LOVELY LADY CALLED MRS GAFFNEY WHO WAS VERY INTERESTED IN IT.

RAXWORTHY: IS SHE THE ONE THAT WAS IN TEACHERS LATER?

STEPHENS: NO, THAT’S HER DAUGHTER. BRIDGET GAFFNEY IS HER DAUGHTER. NO. SHE WAS ONE OF THE DRIVING FORCES BEHIND THE FORMATION OF THE NURSES CREDIT UNION BUT AGAIN, THERE WAS SOME INFLUENCE THERE FROM THE CLERKS CREDIT UNION, WHERE THE CLERKS HAD A NUMBER OF MEMBERS WORKING IN THE HOSPITALS. THEY WERE TALKING TO THE NURSING STAFF, THE NURSING STAFF CAME TO THE UNION – WE WANT A CREDIT UNION.

RAXWORTHY: WHO WAS INVOLVED IN THE START OF THE CLERKS CREDIT UNION, DO YOU KNOW?

STEPHENS: I DON’T KNOW WHO WAS INVOLVED IN THE START OF IT BECAUSE, AS I SAY, IT WAS STARTED QUITE EARLY IN THE PIECE, WENT INTO LIMBO AND THEN WAS RESURRECTED. WHEN IT WAS RESURRECTED THERE WAS A GENTLEMAN, I THINK HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A COUNTRYMAN OF MINE AT SOME STAGE, A FELLOW CALLED MICHAEL O’CONNOR. HE WAS THE FELLOW WHO GOT IT OFF THE GROUND AGAIN.

RAXWORTHY: CAN YOU THINK OF SOME OF THE OTHER CREDIT UNIONS YOU WERE AT THE FORMATION OF OR INVOLVED IN THE FORMATION OF AND ANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED WITH YOU AT THAT TIME?

STEPHENS: YES. I SUPPOSE SO. THERE WAS THE HOSPITAL CREDIT UNION, THE PRINCESS ALEXANDRA HOSPITAL CREDIT UNION. TWO PEOPLE THERE WERE JIM BAILEY AND MRS BEST WERE TWO THERE. WE TALK OF THE UNIVERSITY CREDIT UNION. THERE WE HAD BILL ROBSON WHO WAS LATER THE CHAIRMAN OF THE LEAGUE. OH GOODNESS ME, TO TAKE YOU THROUGH CREDIT UNIONS AD INFINITUM THAT WE FORMED.

RAXWORTHY: WERE YOU INVOLVED WITH BEAUDESERT?

STEPHENS: I WAS INVOLVED, YES I WAS. THE GENTLEMAN, I CAN’T REMEMBER HIS NAME BUT HE HAD A MENSWEAR SHOP. ANOTHER FELLOW WHO WAS THERE UNFORTUNATELY HAS SINCE PASSED ON WAS GEORGE MOUNDER AND THE MANGER WHO WAS ALSO INVOLVED IN THE EARLY STAGES, PAT MCGOVERN.

RAXWORTHY: WHAT ABOUT WARWICK?

STEPHENS: YES, WARWICK WAS ANOTHER ONE WE FORMED. IT’S QUITE AN EXTRAORDINARY CREDIT UNION THAT. I WAS AT THEIR RECENT ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING AND THAT CREDIT UNION HAS ON ITS BOARD TODAY, SEVEN OF THE ORIGINAL NINE DIRECTORS. IT WOULD HAVE HAD EIGHT ONLY FOR ONE DEATH. THE FORCE BEHIND THAT WAS RAY LYONS WHO WAS IN FARMING UP THERE AND ANOTHER GENTLEMAN, AGAIN A POSTAL TECHNICIAN – WORD OF MOUTH DEVELOPMENT. DON HINE, HE’S STILL A DIRECTOR OF THAT CREDIT UNION TODAY AND ONE OF THE FIELD OFFICERS FROM THE LEAGUE WHOM I APPOINTED SOME MANY, MANY YEARS AGO IS NOW THE MANAGER, ALAN MCCRORY AND IT IS VERY NICE TO SEE A CREDIT UNION BEING MANAGED BY A PERSON WHO REALLY HAS THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE CREDIT UNION MOVEMENT AT HEART. NOT SOMEBODY FROM ACROSS THE TRACKS.

RAXWORTHY: YES WELL HE DROVE DOWN TO BE INTERVIEWED BY ME.

STEPHENS: DID HE REALLY.

RAXWORTHY: FROM BRISBANE.

STEPHENS: WELL THAT’S ALAN. HE’S A VERY FINE YOUNG GENTLEMAN. WELL HE’S NOT A YOUNG GENTLEMAN ANY MORE, I WAS SURPRISED …..

RAXWORTHY: HE TOLD ME A BIT ABOUT THE CHERBOURG CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: THE CHERBOURG CREDIT UNION, THE ABORIGINAL CREDIT UNION WHICH WAS FORMED JUST OUTSIDE MURGON. YES, IT WAS AN EXPERIMENT. SOME WOULD SAY IT WAS AN EXPERIMENT WHICH WENT WRONG. I WOULDN’T AGREE THAT IT WAS AN EXPERIMENT WHICH WENT WRONG BECAUSE I BELIEVED THERE WAS AMPLE CAPACITY THERE TO KEEP IT GOING BUT IT NEEDED MOTHERING AND THE WAY THINGS DEVELOPED OVER THE YEARS, IN LATER YEARS, THE MOTHERING SIDE OF THE STAFF OF THE LEAGUE NO LONGER WAS THERE. THEY JUST WEREN’T THERE. WE WEREN’T KEEPING AN EYE ON THEM. IT’S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

ALL RIGHT, PROBABLY NOT A HECK OF A LOT OF CAPACITY, NOT A HECK OF A LOT OF CAPITAL BUT CERTAINLY IT WAS A GREAT EXERCISE.

RAXWORTHY: SO WHAT ABOUT UP IN THE NORTH. DID YOU HAVE MUCH TO DO WITH – DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE PARK AVENUE ONE?

STEPHENS: THE PARK AVENUE ONE IS RELATIVELY OLD. IN FACT I THINK THE PARK AVENUE CREDIT UNION WAS FORMED ABOUT A FORTNIGHT BEFORE THE CREDIT UNION OF THE ABC. A MATTER OF DAYS AND ONE OF THE DRIVING FORCES BEHIND THAT CREDIT UNION WAS THEN, HE ALSO HAS PASSED AWAY, THE LOCAL PRIEST, FATHER LEAHY. HE WAS ABLY ASSISTED BY BRIAN FITZGERALD AND I CAN’T RECALL THE NAMES OF SOME OF THE OTHER DIRECTORS OF THAT CREDIT UNION BUT I SPOKE UP THERE ON MANY, MANY OCCASIONS. IN FACT I THINK WE WERE PROBABLY ABLE TO GIVE THEM SOME GUIDANCE IN RELATION TO THE ACTUAL OPERATIONS BUT CERTAINLY WE COULDN’T TEACH THEM ANYTHING ON PHILOSOPHY.

RAXWORTHY: WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER ONES IN THAT AREA THAT WERE EVENTUALLY AMALGAMATED? ROCKHAMPTON?

STEPHENS: WE FORMED A CREDIT UNION IN THE ROCKHAMPTON COUNCIL AND I CAN’T AGAIN RECALL THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED BUT THAT ONE HAS AMALGAMATED WITH PARK AVENUE. THERE WAS ANOTHER ONE IN NORTH, I CAN’T REMEMBER, IT WAS ON THE HILL SOMEWHERE…….

RAXWORTHY: IT WAS CALLED NORTH ROCKHAMPTON.

STEPHENS: NORTH ROCKHAMPTON, AND THERE WAS ANOTHER PARISH CREDIT UNION UP THERE WHICH HAD A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFICULTY. SOME OF THE PILLARS OF THE CHURCH WEREN’T MADE OF CEMENT. BUT ANY WAY, THEY HAVE ALL AMALGAMATED NOW INTO A SINGLE CREDIT UNION. IT’S DEFINITELY A COMMUNITY CREDIT UNION, THE CAPRICORNIA.

RAXWORTHY: THE CAPRICORNIAN. BOTH OF THEM CAME DOWN ON THEIR WAY TO THE ANNUAL MEETING AND I RECORDED THEM.

STEPHENS: WHO, GRIFFIN?

RAXWORTHY: VINCE GRIFFIN YES, AND BRIAN.

STEPHENS: AH HUM.

RAXWORTHY: AND WHAT ABOUT FURTHER NORTH. DID YOU FORM ANY CREDIT UNIONS UP THERE?

STEPHENS: ROCKHAMPTON, NEXT UP, MACKAY. NO WE DIDN’T FORM ANY IN MACKAY AND WE DIDN’T FORM ANY IN TOWNSVILLE. THERE IS A CREDIT UNION FROM MOUNT ISA THAT’S GRADUALLY SPREAD ITS WINGS BECAUSE OF ITS ASSOCIATION BETWEEN THE COAL MINING IN COLLINSVILLE AND AROUND THAT AREA. IT CAME OVER. AND ALSO MOUNT ISA HAD ITS SMELTER IN TOWNSVILLE SO IT GRADUALLY MOVED INTO THAT DIRECTION. IT MOVED ITS HEADQUARTERS OVER THERE AND IT BECAME A SECOND CREDIT UNION IN THAT AREA. THE TEACHERS CREDIT UNION HAS A VERY, VERY ACTIVE BRANCH OFFICE IN TOWNSVILLE AND A VERY ACTIVE BRANCH OFFICE IN CAIRNS.

RAXWORTHY: NOW, WERE YOU INVOLVED IN ANY OTHER POSITION OTHER THAN DEVELOPMENT OFFICER IN THE LEAGUE?

STEPHENS: OVER A PERIOD OF TIME THE DEVELOPMENT ALSO PRODUCED ITS OWN LEVEL OF ADMINISTRATIVE WORK WHICH REQUIRED ATTENTION SO I WAS CHANGED FROM FIELD REPRESENTATIVE – WE APPOINTED TWO FIELD OFFICERS OVER A LITTLE PERIOD OF TIME AND I WAS RENAMED THE MANAGER OF THE LEAGUE. THE FIRST TWO FIELD OFFICERS WERE BERNIE FARRELLY, WHO WAS FORMERLY A DIRECTOR OR A MEMBER OF THE CLERKS CREDIT UNION. THE SECOND ONE WAS ALAN MCCRORY. NOW ALAN HAD BEEN INVOLVED IN THE FORMATION OF THE AMACAL CREDIT UNION SO HE HAD EXPERIENCE IN THAT FIELD.

LATER ON WE APPOINTED A THIRD FIELD OFFICER, BOB DANIELS AND BOB DANIELS TODAY IS THE DEPUTY GENERAL MANAGER OF THE COMMONWEALTH PUBLIC SERVICE CREDIT UNION.

LATER TO THAT AGAIN WE APPOINTED AN E.D.P. OFFICER SO THAT WE COULD COMMENCE OPERATIONS IN THAT FIELD AND THAT WAS A GENTLEMAN BY THE NAME OF BRIAN TODDEN. HE LATER LEFT AND HE WENT DOWN TO WORK IN THE COMPUTER FIELD IN MELBOURNE AND HE WAS SUCCEEDED BY A GENTLEMAN, NIGEL EXCELL. NIGEL IS TODAY, NOT WITH THE LEAGUE, HE IS THE MANAGER OF THE COMPUTER DIVISION OF THE QUEENSLAND TEACHERS CREDIT UNION. SO OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS BETWEEN 1968, WHEN WE STARTED WITH MYSELF THROUGH TO 1974 WHEN I LEFT THE LEAGUE WE HAD GONE FROM MYSELF TO THREE FIELD OFFICERS AND A COUPLE OF GIRLS, A COMPUTER OFFICE AND WHAT EVER ANCILLARY STAFF THAT CAME AND WENT.

RAXWORTHY: WERE YOU INVOLVED IN PUTTING THE COMPUTER IN THERE AND ACCOUNTING?

STEPHENS: WE WEREN’T INVOLVED SO MUCH IN THAT AS WE WERE IN THE EARLY STAGES ON DEVELOPMENT. THE INITIAL COMPUTER PROGRAMS WHICH WERE USED BY THE LEAGUE WERE BATCH PROGRAMS AND THEY WERE OPERATED THROUGH MATHERS COMPUTER. WE BOUGHT TIME ON THERE.

THE FIRST CREDIT UNION IN QUEENSLAND ACTUALLY, TO INSTALL A COMPUTER AS SUCH, WAS A CENTURY MACHINE INSTALLED BY THE QLD TEACHERS CREDIT UNION.

BILL ROBSON, WHO WAS AT THAT TIME THE CHAIRMAN OF THE UNIVERSITY CREDIT UNION AND ALSO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE LEAGUE, HE WAS VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THE EARLY DEVELOPMENT OF COMPUTERS FOR CREDIT UNIONS INSOFAR AS HE WAS, IN HIS NORMAL CAPACITY, INVOLVED IN THE ELECTRICAL DEPARTMENT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF QUEENSLAND AND THAT INVOLVED ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE UNIVERSITY’S COMPUTER WHICH WAS A PDP 10 AND THAT WAS VERY HELPFUL IN TERMS OF TESTING CERTAIN PROGRAMS.

RAXWORTHY: DID YOU LIAISE WITH NEW SOUTH WALES ON THIS AT ALL?

STEPHENS: NO, NOT ON THE AREA OF COMPUTERS IN MY TIME.

RAXWORTHY: NOW, WHY EXACTLY OR HOW DID YOU COME TO LEAVE THE QUEENSLAND LEAGUE?

STEPHENS: WELL, IT GOT TO THE STAGE WHERE IT WAS A QUESTION OF MANAGEMENT AS DISTINCT FROM DEVELOPMENT. I MADE IT VERY CLEAR AT ONE PARTICULAR POINT THAT I WAS A PERSON INVOLVED IN DEVELOPMENT AND ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IT WASN’T TOTALLY FOREIGN TO ME, WAS CERTAINLY NOT AS ATTRACTIVE AS BEING OUT THERE IN THE DEVELOPMENT AREA.

THE LEAGUE, ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY WANTED MANAGEMENT SO IT WAS GENERALLY CONCEDED THAT IT WOULD BE IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF ALL IF THEY GOT A MANAGER FOR ADMINISTRATION AND I SOUGHT AN AREA WHERE I COULD CONTINUE TO ACT IN A DEVELOPMENT CAPACITY.

RAXWORTHY: AND YOU WENT TO QUEENSLAND TEACHERS?

STEPHENS: NO, MY FIRST POSITION AFTER THAT WAS WITH THE A.P.M. WHICH WAS THE AUSTRALIAN PAPER MANUFACTURERS CREDIT UNION.

RAXWORTHY: HOW DID THAT START? DO YOU REMEMBER?

STEPHENS: YES WE STARTED THAT AGAIN, AS A VOLUNTEER IN THE MID SIXTIES AND AGAIN IT WAS FORMED, WORD OF MOUTH WAS THE ONLY WAY THAT WE DEVELOPED. WE NEVER WENT OUT SELLING CREDIT UNIONS AND WE NEVER HAD TO SELL CREDIT UNIONS. THERE WERE PEOPLE WAITING.

RAXWORTHY: NOW THAT WAS APM, PINE RIVER?

STEPHENS: NO, IT WAS APM, ORIGINALLY. PURELY TO THE MILL BUT AGAIN WE WERE LOOKING AT A GROWING CAPACITY WITHIN THE MOVEMENT. TECHNOLOGY WAS GREAT AND EVERYTHING WAS GOING TO THE STAGE WERE WE COULD HANDLE A GREAT DEAL MORE.

WE WERE IN A RATHER ISOLATED LITTLE AREA. IT WAS A SUBURB OF BRISBANE ABOUT 27KM OUT SO IT WAS A POCKET AND A LARGE NUMBER OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE MILL LIVED IN THE AREA AND THEY WERE TALKING TO THEIR FRIENDS AND NEIGHBOURS SO IT WAS AGREED BY THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE CREDIT UNION THAT WE SHOULD EXTEND THE CREDIT UNION TO PEOPLE WORKING IN THE MILL AND PEOPLE LIVING IN THE PINE RIVER SHIRE. WE HAD A VERY TIGHT GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARY AND THEY WERE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO COULD JOIN IT.

SO WE MOVED OUR OFFICE TO RENTED PREMISES AND LATER WE BUILT OUR OWN OFFICE IN KALLANGUR.

RAXWORTHY: AND HOW DID YOU AMALGAMATE WITH PINE RIVERS THEN?

STEPHENS: AGAIN, WE WERE LOOKING AT THE SAME PROBLEM. WE WERE LOOKING AT THE PROBLEM OF TECHNOLOGY. WHAT TECHNOLOGY CAN DO, WHAT TECHNOLOGY COSTS, HOW FAR CAN A SMALL CREDIT UNION GO IN MEETING THE SERVICES WHICH ARE BEING PROVIDED BY THE LARGER CREDIT UNIONS AND WHICH HAD BECOME MORE AND MORE READILY AVAILABLE – IT IS NOT REALLY POSSIBLE FOR A SMALL CREDIT UNION TO GO INTO SUCH THINGS AS MEMBER CHEQUING, VISA CARDS, EFT, ALL OF THIS AND WE FELT THAT OUR MEMBERS DESERVED THE BEST AND WE FELT AS A BOARD OF THE APM PINE RIVERS COMMUNITY CREDIT UNION THAT IT WOULD BE LOGICAL FOR US TO SEEK AMALGAMATION WITH A LARGE AND HIGHLY RESPECTED AND REPUTABLE CREDIT UNION. WE HAD SOME ALTERNATIVES AND THERE WERE MANY OPTIONS BUT THE CONSENSUS WAS THAT WE SHOULD SEEK AMALGAMATION WITH THE QLD TEACHERS CREDIT UNION, WHICH WE DID.

RAXWORTHY: WAS THAT BECAUSE HAROLD MARSHALL WAS ALREADY ON YOUR BOARD?

STEPHENS: I DON’T THINK IT WAS, SOLELY. YES, HE WAS AN INFLUENCE AND HE WAS A VERY GOOD INFLUENCE INSOFAR AS HE WAS ABLE TO GIVE US A GREAT DEAL OF DETAIL ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT THIS OTHER CREDIT UNION COULD PROVIDE FOR OUR MEMBERS. AND AGAIN, WHEN YOU HAVE GOT THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO YOU AND YOU HAVE YOUR OWN EXPERIENCES OF SEEING THE CREDIT UNION, THAT INFLUENCED THE BOARD WITHOUT A DOUBT.

RAXWORTHY: SO THEY INHERITED YOU?

STEPHENS: THE TEACHERS CREDIT UNION INHERITED ME. THEY ESTABLISHED A BRANCH – APM BECAME A BRANCH OF THE QUEENSLAND TEACHERS CREDIT UNION AND I REMAINED IN THAT POSITION LOOKING AFTER THAT BRANCH FOR A PERIOD OF TIME.

THEN, THE QLD TEACHERS CREDIT UNION, THROUGH A RESTRUCTURE IN THEIR OWN HEAD OFFICE HAD A VACANCY FOR A POSITION AND I WAS INVITED BY THE GENERAL MANAGER OF THE TEACHERS CREDIT UNIONS TO TAKE THAT POSITION.

RAXWORTHY: THAT WAS HAROLD MARSHALL?

STEPHENS: NO, MR MARSHALL WAS NO LONGER THERE.

RAXWORTHY: LLOYD HAWKINS?

STEPHENS: LLOYD HAWKINS, HE WAS THE GENERAL MANAGER. I WAS INVITED BY MR RON DICKSON WHO IS TODAY THE GENERAL MANGER, TO TAKE THAT POSITION. IT WAS THE POSITION OF MANAGER INTERNAL AUDIT. AND I TOOK THAT POSITION AND I RETAINED THAT POSITION UNTIL MY RETIREMENT.

RAXWORTHY: NOW SOME OF THE INTERESTING THINGS THAT HAPPENED AT QLD TEACHERS INITIALLY BEFORE YOU ARRIVED THERE. WERE YOU INVOLVED AT ALL IN THE STARTING OF THE FIRST ATM’S?

STEPHENS: NO, I WASN’T. THEY WERE STARTED BEFORE I ARRIVED THERE. BEFORE I WAS INVOLVED IN ANY WAY WITH THE TEACHERS CREDIT UNION. THEY WERE VERY MUCH THE RESULT OF STUDIES DONE BY LLOYD HAWKINS.

RAXWORTHY: WERE YOU AT THE AMALGAMATION MEETING OF APM PINE RIVERS AND TEACHERS CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: I WAS.

RAXWORTHY: COULD YOU RELATE THE STORY, SO TO SPEAK?

STEPHENS: I COULD RELATE THE STORIES BUT I DON’T THINK IT WOULD BE TO THE BENEFIT OF ANYONE TO RAKE OVER THOSE COALS.

RAXWORTHY: WELL, OF COURSE, I’VE ASKED THE SAME QUESTION OF HAROLD MARSH AND LLOYD HAWKINS AND BEEN ANSWERED BY BOTH?

STEPHENS: FRANKLY?

RAXWORTHY: WELL I’M NOT IN A POSITION TO JUDGE, AM I? NOT HAVING ANY EXPERIENCE.

STEPHENS: WELL ALL RIGHT THEN. I’LL GIVE YOU MY VERSION OF IT.

THE AMALGAMATION WAS CALLED FOR A SPECIFIC DATE AND NORMALLY ONE WOULD ANTICIPATE THAT IN THE CASE OF AN AMALGAMATION YOU WOULD HAVE THE BOARDS OF THE TWO CREDIT UNIONS PLUS PERHAPS FOUR OR FIVE PEOPLE FROM EITHER SIDE, JUST THE NORMAL AMOUNT NECESSARY TO MAKE UP THE QUORUM TO CARRY THE NECESSARY MOTIONS AT THAT MEETING. AFTER ALL, BOTH ONE CREDIT UNION AND THE OTHER CREDIT UNION HAD BOTH PREVIOUSLY VOTED FOR THE AMALGAMATION.

ON ATTENDING THE FIRST AMALGAMATION MEETING, WE WERE SOMEWHAT SURPRISED TO FIND THAT THERE WAS ABOUT 120 OR MORE PEOPLE IN ATTENDANCE WHICH SOUNDED FINE AND GREAT. THIS WAS REALLY GOOD. THERE WAS GREAT INTEREST BEING SHOWN.

ANYWAY, IT HAD BEEN GENERALLY AGREED PRIOR TO THE MEETING THAT ON THE AMALGAMATION OF THE TWO CREDIT UNIONS, IT WAS NECESSARY TO FORM A NEW BOARD AND IT HAD BEEN AGREED AND IT HAD BEEN THE UNDERSTANDING AT THE APM CREDIT UNION THAT THE EXISTING BOARD OF THE QLD TEACHERS CREDIT UNION WOULD BE NOMINATED “EN BLOC” AS THE BOARD OF THE NEW CREDIT UNION.

WHAT IN FACT HAPPENED WAS, THAT A SERIES OF NOMINATIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE WERE MADE AND AS A RESULT, AN ELECTION WAS NECESSARY AND THAT ELECTION RESULTED IN ALMOST A TOTAL NEW BOARD BEING ELECTED TO THE TEACHERS CREDIT UNION.

NOW, THAT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL IN ACCORDANCE WITH BOTH THE RULES OF THE CREDIT UNION AND THE ACT UNDER WHICH WE OPERATED.

HOWEVER, IT WAS NOT ACCEPTED BY SOME PEOPLE AND THE MEETING WAS DECLARED NULL AND VOID. THE NEXT DAY, I UNDERSTAND, THE CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THE STAFF OF THE QLD TEACHERS CREDIT UNION WERE ADVISED THAT THEY NO LONGER HELD THEIR POSITIONS, SO ONE THING LEAD TO ANOTHER. GENERAL MEETINGS WERE CALLED AND SPECIAL MEETINGS WERE CALLED. AND FINALLY A SECOND AMALGAMATION MEETING WAS HELD WHICH THE BOARD, AS ELECTED AT THE FIRST MEETING, WERE ACTUALLY RE-APPOINTED.

IT WAS AN UNPLEASANT SITUATION. IT LEFT A VERY NASTY TASTE IN A LOT OF PEOPLES MOUTHS. IT WAS CLEARLY OR APPEARED TO BE DESIGNED TO CHANGE THE STATUS QUO. APM CREDIT UNION HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT, WERE NO WAY INVOLVED IN IT AND WERE ACTUALLY QUITE SURPRISED AT THE WHOLE BUSINESS.

RAXWORTHY: SO AFTER THIS HAD FINISHED, WHO WAS CHAIRMAN THEN?

STEPHENS: OF THE………..

RAXWORTHY: OF THE COMBINED UNION – TEACHERS CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: WELL WE HAD AN ENTIRELY NEW BOARD TO THE BOARD WHICH THE APM HAD UNDERSTOOD WOULD BE THE BOARD AND THE NEW CHAIRMAN, I BELIEVE WAS LYLE SHUNTNER, WHO IS CURRENTLY THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF THE QLD TEACHERS CREDIT UNION.

RAXWORTHY: SO, WELL THANK YOU FOR THAT BUT IT DOESN’T SORT OUT ANY OF THE POINTS OF ISSUE WHICH IS FAIR ENOUGH?

STEPHENS: WELL WHAT ARE THE POINTS OF ISSUE?

RAXWORTHY: WELL, IT’S REALLY WHETHER THE MEETING WAS CARRIED ON FAR TOO LONG TO THE POINT WHERE THE VOTES HAPPENED AT THREE O’CLOCK IN THE MORNING WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE HAD GONE HOME.

STEPHENS: THAT WAS AT THE SECOND MEETING, NOT THE FIRST ONE. THAT WAS AT THE SECOND MEETING.

I DON’T THINK IT WOULD HAVE MADE ANY DIFFERENCE WHETHER THEY’D GONE HOME OR WHETHER THEY HADN’T GONE HOME. I THINK THE DECISIONS WERE MADE AND THE NUMBERS WERE THERE. AND IF YOU CAN’T BEAT THEM, JOIN ‘EM!

RAXWORTHY: WELL IT WAS AN INTERESTING SORT OF SITUATION?

THERE’S ANOTHER SORT OF BARNEY THAT HAPPENED IN THE LEAGUE THERE WITH GARTH FURNESS AND LEN HEDGER AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS INVOLVED?

STEPHENS: 1978, YES.

RAXWORTHY: CAN YOU REMEMBER WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT?

STEPHENS: YES, I CAN. I CAN REMEMBER WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT VERY WELL.

THERE WERE TWO, AS WE HAVE SAID BEFORE, THERE WERE TWO CREDIT UNIONS INVOLVED IN THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL AREAS AND THERE WAS ALWAYS A DEGREE OF JEALOUSY OR IT WOULD APPEAR SO, ALTHOUGH THEY WOULDN’T ADMIT IT.

IT WOULD APPEAR THAT CERTAIN INFORMATION RELATING TO ONE CREDIT UNION WAS IMPROPERLY RELAYED TO THE SECOND CREDIT UNION. INFORMATION WHICH WAS PUBLICLY USED AT GENERAL MEETINGS, REALLY, TO RUN DOWN THE OTHER CREDIT UNION.

END OF TAPE

AS I SAID, THE INFORMATION, ON INVESTIGATION IT WAS REVEALED THAT CERTAIN INFORMATION WAS DELIVERED TO CREDIT UNION “B” AND THAT INFORMATION HAD BEEN MADE AVAILABLE BY THE GENERAL MANAGER OF THE LEAGUE.

THIS IN FACT WAS ADMITTED TO BE THE CASE AND AS CAN BE SEEN IN THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE GENERAL MEETING WHICH CONSIDERED THE WHOLE AFFAIR.

IT WAS THEREFORE CLAIMED BY THE CREDIT UNION INVOLVED THAT THE DISCLOSURE OF THIS INFORMATION WAS CONTRARY TO THE CONDUCT EXPECTED OF A PERSON AND THAT AS A RESULT, THE PERSON SHOULD NOT BE RETAINED ON THE STAFF. THE BOARD OF THE LEAGUE RESOLVED, THEREFORE, THAT THE SERVICES OF THE THEN GENERAL MANAGER BE TERMINATED.

THAT DECISION WAS THEN TAKEN, ON REQUEST OF A NUMBER OF CREDIT UNIONS TO A GENERAL MEETING AND THE GENERAL MEETING REJECTED THE DECISION OF THE BOARD, REINSTATED THE GENERAL MANAGER AND THE BOARD THEREFORE, ALSO WAS ASKED (OR I BELIEVE THEY WERE ASKED) TO RESIGN AND A NEW BOARD WAS ELECTED.

THE QUESTION OF THE PROPRIETY IS NOT ONE FOR ME TO JUDGE BUT THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED. MR FURNESS WAS REINSTATED AND CONTINUED IN HIS CAPACITY AS GENERAL MANAGER UP TO THE DATE OF HIS RETIREMENT.

RAXWORTHY: AND DID THAT CAUSE THE SPLIT IN THE QUEENSLAND LEAGUE?

STEPHENS: UNDOUBTEDLY THAT CAUSED THE SPLIT WHEN ABOUT FIVE CREDIT UNIONS RESIGNED FROM THE LEAGUE AND ESTABLISHED THE ASSOCIATION OF CREDIT UNIONS, YES.

RAXWORTHY: AND THAT ACTUALLY OPERATES OUT OF SUNSTATE CREDIT UNION’S OFFICE AT THE PRESENT MOMENT?

STEPHENS: WELL, I BELIEVE THERE’S ONLY ONE CREDIT UNION LEFT IN THE ASSOCIATION. THERE MAY BE TWO, I’M NOT SURE. BUT THE MT ISA CREDIT UNION, WHICH WAS ONE, IS BACK IN THE LEAGUE AS A MEMBER. WARWICK CREDIT UNION HAS RECENTLY RETURNED TO THE LEAGUE. I’M NOT SURE EXACTLY OF THE STATUS OF ALL OF THE CREDIT UNIONS BUT THERE WERE A SMALL NUMBER OF CREDIT UNIONS INVOLVED.

RAXWORTHY: YES, WELL DO YOU THINK THAT THE HAPPENINGS THERE AT THE LEAGUE OVER THAT AND THE HAPPENINGS AT TEACHERS CREDIT UNION WERE COMPARABLE OR WAS IT TOTALLY DIFFERENT?

STEPHENS: OH, I REALLY DON’T THINK THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A GREAT DEAL OF SIMILARITY. THERE WERE TWO ISSUES, THERE WERE TWO SEPARATE ISSUES AND I THINK THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THEM BOTH WERE DIFFERENT.

RAXWORTHY: NOW, WHILE YOU, FOR THE REST OF YOUR WORKING TIME AT TEACHERS CREDIT UNION, WHAT WAS ACTUALLY YOUR JOB?

STEPHENS: I WAS THE MANAGER OF THE INTERNAL AUDIT DEPARTMENT OF THE LEAGUE, THE CREDIT UNION.

RAXWORTHY: AND WHAT DID THAT ENTAIL?

STEPHENS: THE EXAMINATION OF THE RECORDS, ENSURING THAT THE RECORDS WERE MAINTAINED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ACT AND THE REGULATIONS. LOOKING TO ENSURE THAT ADEQUATE SECURITY WAS MAINTAINED OVER ALL FACETS OF THE OPERATION.

RAXWORTHY: HAD THERE BEEN A SUPERVISORY COMMITTEE AT QLD TEACHERS BEFORE?

STEPHENS: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

RAXWORTHY: HAD THERE BEEN A PREVIOUS INTERNAL AUDITOR?

STEPHENS: YES, THERE HAD BEEN. BUT HE HAD BEEN PROMOTED INTO AN ASSISTANT GENERAL MANAGER’S POSITION WHICH CREATED THE VACANCY OF WHICH I WAS INVITED TO JOIN, YES.

RAXWORTHY: AND YOU SPENT THE REST OF YOUR TIME WORKING IN THAT JOB, SEPARATE FROM THE REST OF THE CREDIT UNION?

STEPHENS: SEPARATE? THAT WAS MY JOB ENTIRELY. THE INTERNAL AUDIT AND I FOUND IT VERY INTERESTING.

RAXWORTHY: AND WHAT WERE THE CHANGES THAT HAPPENED AT QLD TEACHERS CREDIT UNION DURING THE PERIOD YOU WERE THERE?

STEPHENS: NO MAJOR CHANGES, REALLY. THEY HAVE, I BELIEVE, QUITE GOOD CONTROLS. THERE ARE SOME AREAS WHERE, AS IN ANY ORGANISATION, PEOPLE WILL VIEW THINGS IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT, AND WOULD LIKE TO SEE THINGS PERHAPS DONE DIFFERENTLY. BUT OVERALL, I BELIEVE THAT THE CREDIT UNION IS IN VERY GOOD SHAPE.

RAXWORTHY: WHAT ABOUT THE CHANGES IN ACCOUNTING AND COMPUTERISATION?

STEPHENS: WELL IT WAS ALL COMPUTERISED WHEN I GOT THERE. THE ENTIRE, THE WHOLE OF THE SYSTEM IS COMPUTERISED. A VERY POWERFUL COMPUTER. IT’S LINKING THE ENTIRE BRANCH NETWORK FROM CAIRNS RIGHT THROUGH AND A VERY, VERY CONFIDENT AND EFFICIENT OPERATION.

RAXWORTHY: AND ARE THEY STILL USING A QUEENSLAND PROGRAM OR HAVE THEY GONE OVER TO ANOTHER PROGRAM FROM DOWN SOUTH?

STEPHENS: WELL I THINK MOST OF THE CREDIT UNIONS NOW ARE ON COMPATIBLE PROGRAMS BECAUSE OF VARIOUS SITUATIONS RELATING TO ATM’S AND SO ON. THEY’RE ON THE STANDARD PROGRAMS OF AFCUL.

RAXWORTHY: WHICH IS THE FCS ONES?

STEPHENS: THAT’S RIGHT, FCS. YEP.

RAXWORTHY: NOW, QUEENSLAND HAD ONE THAT WAS SEPARATE FROM THAT FIRST – OR DID THEY GET IN THERE FIRST ON THAT?

STEPHENS: I COULDN’T ANSWER THAT QUESTION. I REALLY COULDN’T ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

RAXWORTHY: YES, IT’S NOT CLEAR TO ME. I KNOW THEY DID HAVE PROBLEMS WITH ONE COMPUTER ONCE BUT THAT WASN’T PROGRAM. WELL IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN, BUT I DON’T KNOW?

STEPHENS: ALL OF THOSE MATTERS WERE RELATED TO THE EARLY DEVELOPMENT OF THE COMPUTER IN THE TEACHERS CREDIT UNION OR IN ANY OTHER CREDIT UNION. IT’S OUTSIDE MY ROLE.

RAXWORTHY: SO WHAT KNOWLEDGE DO YOU HAVE NOW DO YOU THINK, THAT HASN’T BEEN COVERED?

STEPHENS: IN WHAT REGARD?

RAXWORTHY: WELL THERE’S ONE AREA THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO PARTICULARLY WITH TEACHERS CREDIT UNION. FOR INSTANCE, THE ESTABLISHMENT OF CREDIT UNION SCHOOLS, CREDIT UNION EDUCATION AND THE CHAPTER?

STEPHENS: WELL THE SCHOOLS WERE GOING BACK INTO HISTORY TO LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT THE SCHOOLS. THERE ARE NO LONGER ANY CHAPTERS AT ALL IN QUEENSLAND. WE DID HAVE TWO. WE HAD THE DARLING DOWNS CHAPTER AND THE BRISBANE CHAPTER. TODAY WE HAVE SEMINARS WHICH ARE ATTENDED BY OUR EXECUTIVES. THEY’RE PRETTY HIGH POWERED THINGS DEVOTED TO LECTURES BY PROFESSORS FROM THIS UNIVERSITY AND PROFESSORS FROM THAT UNIVERSITY.

RAXWORTHY: IS THAT INDEPENDENT FROM THE INSTITUTE OF CREDIT UNION DIRECTORS?

STEPHENS: I THINK IT’S ASSOCIATED WITH THE AICUM. YES.

RAXWORTHY: AH, THE INSTITUTE OF CREDIT UNION MANAGEMENT?

STEPHENS: YES?

RAXWORTHY: AND THE DIRECTORS ARE TRAINED IN THAT?

STEPHENS: WELL THEY GO TO THEM BUT WHETHER THEY LEARN ANYTHING OR NOT, I DON’T KNOW.

RAXWORTHY: WHICH UNIVERSITIES?

STEPHENS: NO, INVITED SPEAKERS COME FROM UNIVERSITIES AND THE BANKING INDUSTRY, FROM ECONOMISTS ETC, ETC, ETC. I’M NOT SURE THAT THEY ARE ALWAYS PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE BEST KNOWLEDGE OF THE CREDIT UNIONS AND I’M NOT ALWAYS SURE THAT THEY PROVIDE BASIC INFORMATION WHICH CAN BE TRANSLATED INTO CREDIT UNION MANAGEMENT.

RAXWORTHY: DID YOU GO TO ANY OF THE SCHOOLS IN OTHER STATES. LIKE THE NEWPORT SCHOOLS, THE WARBURTON SCHOOLS?

STEPHENS: I WENT TO THE NEWPORT SCHOOL ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. VERY MANY OCCASIONS.

RAXWORTHY: DO YOU REMEMBER ANYTHING THAT HAPPENED THERE?

STEPHENS: I REMEMBER VERY CLEARLY THAT I LEARNED A HELL OF A LOT ABOUT HUMAN NATURE AND I LEARNED A HELL OF A LOT OF PHILOSOPHY AND I LEARNED THAT A PERSON WHO IS IN TROUBLE, NEEDS HELP. THAT DOESN’T ALWAYS HAPPEN TODAY. COMPUTERS ARE A RATHER CALLOUS INSTRUMENT AND IF IT TELLS YOU “SORRY, YOU ARE OVER EXTENDED” ON TOO MANY OCCASIONS THAT IS THE END OF THAT PERSON. I’M AFRAID I BELIEVE THAT WHEN A PERSON IS IN TROUBLE, HE REQUIRES HELP. PERHAPS IT MAY NOT BE MONEY BUT HE NEEDS HELP.

RAXWORTHY: HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY COUNSELLING SERVICES OR DID YOU UNDERTAKE ANY COUNSELLING?

STEPHENS: IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE CREDIT UNIONS, THE ONES I WAS INVOLVED WITH – YES, WE DID A LOT AND WE DID IT ON A BASIS OF OUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AND OVER A PERIOD OF TIME A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE CREDIT UNION BECAME QUITE SKILLFUL AT ANALYSING PROBLEMS AND HELPING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS. BUT ULTIMATELY IT IS THE MEMBER WHO SOLVES THE PROBLEM.

RAXWORTHY: THAT RAISES A NUMBER OF THOUGHTS RE THE PHILOSOPHY OF CREDIT UNIONS. MERV CALLAGHAN AND A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL WERE ON ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE RECKONED THAT THE PHILOSOPHY WASN’T THERE ANY MORE YET THEY STILL TALK ABOUT IT IN THE SAME WAY.

STEPHENS: OH WELL, I THINK IN THE SMALLER CREDIT UNION, THE PHILOSOPHY STILL EXISTS BECAUSE THERE IS A VERY CLEAR AND DIRECT LINE OF COMMUNICATION BETWEEN THE MEMBER AND THE CREDIT UNION. TODAY THAT LINE OF COMMUNICATION IS NOT SO CLEAR. I BELIEVE THAT WE GIVE A DEGREE OF LIP SERVICES TO PHILOSOPHY BUT WE ARE CERTAINLY VERY CONCERNED IN THE CREDIT UNIONS ABOUT THE BOTTOM LINE AND ON MANY OCCASIONS THE BOTTOM LINE TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER THE WELFARE OF THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER.

FOR INSTANCES, TAKE THE CASE OF A PERSON WHO REQUIRES A SMALL LOAN OF $400 – $500. MANY CREDIT UNIONS WOULD SAY, “I’M SORRY, WE DON’T MAKE LOANS OF LESS THAN $1000 BECAUSE FINANCIALLY THEY’RE NOT VIABLE TO THE CREDIT UNION”. THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE RATHER CUTTING ACROSS THE PHILOSOPHY OF HELPING A PERSON WHO NEEDS A SMALL LOAN.

RAXWORTHY: YES. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT NEWPORT SCHOOLS. CAN YOU REMEMBER SOME OF THE PEOPLE AND WHO MIGHT HAVE IMPRESSED AT, NOT ONLY NEWPORT, BUT PLACES LIKE WARBURTON?

STEPHENS: I NEVER WENT TO WARBURTON.

RAXWORTHY: WHAT ABOUT UP AT TOOWOOMBA? THEY HAD A SCHOOL UP THERE.

STEPHENS: WE HAD A TOOWOOMBA SCHOOL. I RAN THOSE SCHOOLS. THEY WERE OUR BABY FROM THE QUEENSLAND LEAGUE AND I WAS ALWAYS VERY IMPRESSED WITH SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO CAME FROM OVERSEAS. PEOPLE WHO YOU WOULD IMAGINE WERE SO FAR ADVANCED OF US, BUT THEY SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO COME TO OUR LEVEL. CARLOS MATOS FROM CUNA MUTUAL, CHARLIE COMPTON FROM CUNA MUTUAL. BUT POSSIBLY THE GREATEST PHILOSOPHER I EVER MET IN MY LIFE WAS FATHER MARION GANEY. HE’S THE ONLY MAN I’VE EVER MET IN MY LIFE WHO COULD CONDUCT A CREDIT UNION SCHOOL RIGHT THROUGH THE RUNNING OF THE MELBOURNE CUP WITHOUT A BREAK.

SOMEONE AT THE SCHOOL AT NEWPORT ON THE FIRST TUESDAY IN NOVEMBER GOT UP ON THEIR FEET AT ABOUT HALF PAST TWO AND SAID, “MR CHAIRMAN, COULD I REMIND THE SPEAKER THAT THE MELBOURNE CUP WILL BE RUN IN 20 MINUTES TIME AND COULD WE HAVE A BREAK”. AND THERE WAS ANOTHER GENTLEMAN THERE.

RAXWORTHY: AND WHAT WAS THE ANSWER TO THAT?

STEPHENS: WELL I’M GETTING TO THAT. THE OTHER GENTLEMAN WHO GOT UP ON HIS FEET WAS A GENTLEMAN WELL KNOWN AND BELOVED TO ALL OF US WHO HAS SINCE PASSED AWAY, NAMELY, DERMIT RYAN. AND HE GOT UP ON HIS FEET AND IN DERMIT’S IMMINENTABLE WAY SAID “LISTEN MATE, IF YOU WANT TO HEAR THE MELBOURNE CUP YOU CAN HEAR IT ON THE NEWS AT 6 O’CLOCK TONIGHT BUT FATHER GANEY’S TALKING TO YOU NOW. NOW SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN”. AND HE DID.

AND FATHER GANEY SPOKE RIGHT THROUGH THE MELBOURNE CUP AND THAT TAKES SOMETHING TO DO IN FRONT OF 60 OR 70 AUSTRALIANS INCLUDING ME.

RAXWORTHY: HAVE YOU GOT ANY MORE DERMOT RYAN STORIES?

STEPHENS: OH, NO, NO, NO. DERMOT RYAN, OH DEAR ME.

RAXWORTHY: THERE WAS ONE TIME HE CAME TO TOOWOOMBA -THERE’S AN INTERESTING STORY.

HAVE YOU GOT ANY STORIES ABOUT DERMIT RYAN AT TOOWOOMBA?

STEPHENS: I WOULDN’T LIKE TO REPEAT THEM.

RAXWORTHY: THIS ONE ISN’T THAT BAD.

STEPHENS: WHICH ONE IS IT?

RAXWORTHY: OH, IT WAS THE ONE ABOUT – HE WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE GIVEN A REPORT. THEY HAD A MEETING WITH THE PRIME MINISTER, GORTON AT THE TIME AND HE’S REPORTED TO HAVE SAID, “WE HAD THE MEETING WITH THE PRIME MINISTER, MR JOHN GORTON, AND ALL I GOT WAS THE BOX OF MATCHES I NICKED OFF HIS DESK”. THEN HE SAT DOWN?

STEPHENS: WELL I CAN’T SAY I RECALL IT BUT I’M QUITE SURE IT WOULD BE DERMOT. IT WOULD BE TYPICAL OF DERMOT, PARTICULARLY IF HE’D HAD A BOTTLE OF CLARET.

NO, HE WAS A GREAT GUY. HE WAS A WONDERFUL BLOKE.

RAXWORTHY: WERE YOU INVOLVED MUCH WITH AFCUL AT ALL?

STEPHENS: NO, I WAS NOT. NO, I WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH AFCUL AT ALL. I KEPT MYSELF CLEAR OF THAT POLITICAL SCENE.

RAXWORTHY: OH WELL. SO DID YOU GO ON ANY WORLD COUNCIL TRIPS AT ALL?

STEPHENS: NEVER. NO.

RAXWORTHY: RIGHT. SO IS THERE ANYTHING I SHOULD ASK YOU IN ANY PARTICULAR AREA THAT WE HAVEN’T COVERED AT ALL, THAT I SHOULD HAVE ASKED YOU?

STEPHENS: NO, I THINK WE’VE BEEN PRETTY GENERAL. I THINK MY CREDIT UNION EXPERIENCE, WHICH GOES BACK FROM, AS I SAY, JULY 1959. THE MOST REWARDING PART OF IT WAS THE PART AS A VOLUNTEER, WHERE THERE WAS NO PAY. NO NOTHING.

PROBABLY THE MOST DIFFICULT PART OF IT WAS THE TIME IT TOOK ME AWAY FROM MY FAMILY BECAUSE I WOULD SAY THAT IN THE EARLY STAGES, YOU WOULD FORM A CREDIT UNION BUT YOU DIDN’T LEAVE IT. YOU WORKED WITH THAT CREDIT UNION UNTIL THEY WERE COMPETENT TO DO ALL OF THE DAY TO DAY EVENTS AND THAT WOULD PROBABLY TAKE YOU EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK AND SOMETIMES SUNDAYS. PARTICULARLY WHERE YOU WERE DEALING WITH PARISH CREDIT UNIONS. YOU WOULD GO ON SUNDAYS AND IT TOOK YOU AWAY FROM YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR CHILDREN.

BUT I WOULDN’T SWAP IT. I WOULDN’T SWAP IT. NOT FOR FIRST PRIZE IN THE LOTTO.

RAXWORTHY: THERE’S ONE QUESTION THAT I DIDN’T ASK YOU AND IT’S PROBABLY AN ANTI-CLIMAX POSSIBLY TO ASK YOU AND THAT IS, WERE YOU EVER ON THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE TO THE MINISTER?

STEPHENS: WE DIDN’T HAVE ONE IN QUEENSLAND. OH YES WE DID, WE HAD AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE.

RAXWORTHY: ON CO-OPERATIVES.

STEPHENS: YES. NO I WASN’T.