7 JUNE 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH VINCE MARTIN
I am talking to Mr Vince Martin who in addition to being a Director of the New South Wales Credit Union League, as it was in those days, was also a Member of Parliament and worked on behalf of the Credit Union Movement.
I will ask you Mr Martin, where were you born and when?
VM: I was born 14 May 1920 at Marrickville, New South Wales and we shifted to Belmore about six months after I was born.
Where did you grow up?
VM: I grew up in Belmore. I was married in 1941 at the age of twenty-one and we moved out from Belmore from our home, my father’s home at Belmore. My mum had died about twelve months prior to us being married. We moved out in the early days to a small, fairly ugly back of the house at Strathfield.
Where did you go to school?
VM: I went to school at Marist Brothers, Darlinghurst. My primary school days were at St Joseph’s, Belmore, the St Joseph Nuns. My father was an old boy of Marist Brothers, Darlinghurst from the very early days when it was at what is now St Mary’s Cathedral School and I can remember mum sending us there on a bursary and paying two guineas, that is two pound two shillings and battling to pay that.
Was that during Depression time?
VM: Yes, it was in the middle of the Depression. If my memory serves me right I would have been about eleven and I went to Marist Brothers, Darlinghurst and that would have been about 1931 and that was the middle of the Depression.
Was your father not alive then?
VM: No dad was alive, but at the school there was an old boy’s bursary and my eldest brother, Jack won one, I won one and my younger brother Paul won one, so we were pretty lucky getting in. Mine was only a half bursary as it turned out because I had to pay two guineas a term, but the others were full bursaries.
How did your father manager during the Depression?
VM: Dad was working one week in eight. He was on the railway as a clerk. I have got vivid memories of the Depression and dad was active in the trades union movement and in the Labor Party at the time, so I have vivid memories of how tough it was. In fact we were taught how to steal, but it was only food. We were taught how to steal fruit basically and we did that. Fruit and vegetables and it might have been part of my training.
Which union was he in, your father?
VM: Dad was the Vice-President of the Railway and Tramway Officers Association, dad was a clerical officer, and he was that for many many years.
Which side of the 1917 strike had that one been on, do you know?
VM: From my memory, the Railway and Tramway Officers Association wasn’t involved in that strike. It was the Australian Railways Union which was very much involved in the strike and there seemed to be a line of demarcation between the workers, the people who drove the trains, and those who were on the clerical side. That line of demarcation was pretty clear.
So they didn’t get involved, right. Although there was a great deal of bitterness went on through that wasn’t there?
VM: Yes the bitterness was there from the Australian Railways Union. Those that didn’t go on strike and worked during that period were barred from the membership of the Australian Railways Union and they formed their own union called the National Union of Railwaymen. It still operates today but it is a small union.
One of the more militant ones as well.
VM: Yes it is.
Your father never mentioned anything like that, anything about the strike. Was he in the War or was he here?
VM: No dad wasn’t in the First World War, he was too young for that, but he never mentioned it. I don’t know why. He would have been active taking some part in the strike, but what it was I never found out.
So when you were living in the Belmore area, was there any religious influence in your family?
VM: Yes, very much so. I was a practising Catholic. Mum was a convert and a very good Catholic and it was mainly mum who had responsibility which was probably assumed by herself of bringing us up in the Catholic religion, at school and sending us to Catholic schools and so on. Strange part of it too is that my own wife, she is a convert, plays exactly the same part as my mother did.
When you went to school, can you remember whether you liked or disliked school? Were there any particular subjects you liked?
VM: No strangely enough, a lot of people today seem to dislike school, but my thoughts on schooling were that I very much liked it. I liked the primary stage and I liked it more so when I went to high school at Darlinghurst. Unhappily our family situation finance wise didn’t allow me to stay on at Marist Brothers, Darlinghurst and I had to leave school at the age of fourteen having done the intermediate certificate and I had a pretty high pass in that and a pretty high pass in the Public Service examinations of that year.
Did you go straight to work then?
VM: No my father walked the streets of Sydney trying to get me a job. In those days there was a fairly large anti-Catholic bias around and I still remember to this day it was the Royal Insurance Company in Bligh Street, or Bent Street not Bligh Street, going in there. There was an advertisement in the paper for a junior clerk and I was interviewed at the counter with my father and dad, I am afraid, did most of the answering, name, age and so on and what school did you go to. Dad said, ‘Marist Brothers, Darlinghurst,’ and the fellow who interviewed us said, ‘I’m sorry but the job has been filled.’ In other words we got the chop at that stage. I have always, in later life, thought if ever I get the chance to get even with them I shall.
Did you join the Knights of the Southern Cross later on?
VM: Yes, I joined the Knights of the Southern Cross later on. But I didn’t stay with them very long. I am afraid that at the time I joined them I had been in the Labor Party for a long period of time, I joined that in 1949, and I wasn’t wrapped with the way in which the Knights of the Southern Cross operated and I only stayed with them for about two years and just didn’t renew my membership.
Now, when you left school what job did you get?
VM: When I left school on 16 October 1935 I was called up for the State Public Service and went into the Taxation Office as a junior clerk. Strangely enough I was interviewed by the person in charge of Personnel in the Taxation Office and I only found out later that he had three loves, one of which was tennis, the other was if you studied accountancy and the last was if you worked hard. So on the answers I gave and I didn’t know at the time he asked me what sport did I play and I was fifteen and I said I played ‘A’ grade tennis. He was quite impressed with that. He said, ‘Are you going to study?’ I said, ‘Yes, I am going to study accountancy.’ He said, ‘Good. You can go to the First Clerk’s Branch,’ which was the cream of the Taxation Office. From then on I think my future was made.
Were you still there at the beginning of the War?
VM: Yes, I was there at the beginning of the War. I was there until 1969 in the Taxation Office. I studied accountancy. The Chief Staff Clerk there was a lady, not married, who took an interest in me and made sure that I did start studying accountancy. I did fairly well at it and ????? my accountancy and before I was twenty-one and when the Japanese came into the War there was a wholesale exodus of members going into the services. I applied to go into the services but was put on the Reserved Occupation List and then there was a big influx of staff coming into what was the assessing sections of the department, particularly those who were qualified in accountancy, and I was one, and that finished any thoughts I had of going to War. I progressed through the technical sides of taxation in the Assessing Section.
So when you mentioned that you joined the Labor Party after the War was that through any influence from your father in the Labor Party?
VM: Dad was still in the Labor Party, but I was married in 1941 and my family came along soon afterwards and that plus my studies, which I was doing, prevented me joining the Labor Party. Before joining the Labor Party I had been approached and did in fact become a member of what was known in those days as the Movement. It was an organisation basically Catholic-oriented to take an interest in union activities with the idea of preventing the Communist Party taking over control of the trades union movement and thereby taking control of the Labor Party. I was in that before I joined the Labor Party. I went to the ???? Bay Housing Settlement in 1947, stayed there until 1949. It was fairly rough going in there. We had two children whilst we were there, we reared two children we had them before we went there. But I was approached to join the Labor Party whilst I was there but I wouldn’t until such times as I got myself a house and I joined the Labor Party then, which I did.
Can you tell me as far as the Movement’s concerned, the full name of it was the Catholic Social Studies Movement wasn’t it? Were you involved in the social studies end of things with Dr P D Ryan. Did you meet him at all?
VM: Yes I was. Yes I had quite a close contact with Dr Ryan. We went to many organisational meetings where he was present. Bishop Carroll was present at some and Roy Wallend who was the one who was the chief organiser really of the Movement in New South Wales. He was present at all of them.
What about Jack Cain?
VM: Yes, Jack Cain was present at some, mostly the real political ones prior to a conference of the Labor Party, which was usually held on the June week-end which turns out is the coming week and I will be going to that this time.
I interviewed him. He has got the record of fourteen hours.
VM: Yes well Jack Cain did a tremendous amount of work within the Labor Party. I think he got carried away a bit, who doesn’t. But you couldn’t doubt his sincerity and he refused to be pushed around particularly by the Left-Wing extremists in Victoria and Western Australia.
You have got to call him one of the true believers whether you agree with him or not.
VM: Oh yes, I do.
In addition to that time do you remember Kevin Yates speaking at Social Studies Movement meetings at all?
VM: Yes, I do. I do remember Kevin Yates speaking at them.
Kevin Yates used to speak at those meetings, I heard that he was, did he speak on Credit Unions only or the Antigonish Credit Unions only? What did he speak on?
VM: That is going back a bit now. I can remember Kevin Yates being there. The thing that stuck in my mind was that there seemed to be some ill-feeling, I think I can say that, against Kevin over a period, during my period of time there. I don’t mean in the Movement, I mean as far as the League was concerned. To our knowledge, Kevin was the one who really helped to form the Credit Union Movement in Australia after the War. If my memory serves me right, Kevin was in the airforce and there was one other, I can’t think of his name now, but Kevin was really responsible for the formation of the Credit Union Movement in Australia. Kevin I think was more of an idealist than a lot of the hard-headed people within the Credit Union Movement in my day. It has probably become more hard-headed now than it ever was, but I don’t know I shouldn’t comment like that on it. I always respected Kevin for the work which he obviously did in the early days of credit unions in Australia and getting the whole movement going.
Yes, well he did, didn’t he. First it was called the Savings and Loan Association.
VM: Yes, that is correct, it was called the Savings and Loan Association. I had an early interest in a credit union at St Christopher’s Parish in Panania under the Antigonish Movement. It was only small, small in numbers and small in capital. But it did serve a useful purpose for those in St Christopher’s Parish at Panania in getting a lot of the people like myself getting them off the ground with loans to go ahead and acquire furniture.
Who came first there? Was it Father Gallagher or Kevin Yates?
VM: I think it was Father Gallagher who started. Father Gallagher was at Revesby Parish under Father Kerr, who was the Parish Priest.
Out at Lidcombe?
VM: He would have been at Lidcombe prior to him being at Revesby Parish. Some say that Father Gallagher was banished from one parish to the other. I don’t think he got too good a reception at Revesby Parish from Father Kerr. He was a tough bloke and a good bloke. The credit union at Panania was the first knowledge that I had really of credit unions at all.
Have you any idea what year that was?
VM: I reckon it would have been around 1952.
Right. Well that is right on the beginning, isn’t it, no doubt about that.
VM: Yes that’s true.
I think they were formed then. Dermot Ryan, I think they formed it in 1951 and Dermot Ryan, he wasn’t one of the first members but he was in that year. That was at Lidcombe.
VM: Yes, well Dermot lived at Lidcombe and that’s where Dermot and Lidcombe was and I was Vince Martin at Panania. Dermot was in the ALP and Dermot was in the Credit Union Movement. Dermot was active in everything and I’m afraid I was too.
But as far as the Antigonish are concerned, you were talking about Father Gallagher being at Revesby, but I thought he started his Antigonish involvement at Lidcombe, which was after 1951, which is in 1951?
VM: Yes, well the only way I can possibly go back and remember it is that I went to Panania in 1949. We were part of originally the Punchbowl Parish and then part of Revesby Parish when that was formed. There was only one priest there. St Christopher’s, Panania was formed in 1955 and I am pretty certain that the credit union was there before Panania was a parish, so I would think that Father Gallagher was at Revesby then and would have been responsible for the formation of the credit union at Panania.
Yes, you could have been right. But there is another possibility and Clarrie Murphy brought this up, that he was at St Jerome’s, Punchbowl and that Father Gallagher was organising cottage discussions with them over there. But he was doing it from Lidcombe.
VM: Well that could well be so, too. Because he was pretty active and I think the truth could well be that the Parish Priest at Lidcombe transferred him to Revesby. But that didn’t stop him because even when I was in the Federal Parliament, Father Gallagher came in to see me in my office at Revesby and he wasn’t attached to a parish then. He was still active in the Credit Union Movement and he came to see me about a problem that they had as far as Antigonish was concerned. That would have been in 1977 or 1978.
Was that about the setting up of the reserve fund in New South Wales?
VM: I think it was, I’m pretty certain it was. He was saying then that if that was set up it could lead to the death of the Antigonish Credit Union Movement. ??????????????????????????? Father Gallagher used to look after a lot of people who were put out in the street and he used to go round and take ????????????????????????????????????????????
His sister is still very active at Lidcombe, of course. She is still Secretary of several of the credit unions at Belvedere.
VM: That is very interesting. I didn’t know that.
I went and interviewed her regarding Dermot’s antecedents in the Credit Union Movement.
VM: That would have been interesting because there would have been a clash there, I would think.
Did Dermot tell you his stories about his clashing with Father Gallagher?
VM: Yes, he did and he also told me about his clashing with Father Gallagher’s sister, too. He reckons that Father Gallagher’s sister was tougher than Father Gallagher himself.
I suppose she was tough, but I quite like her nonetheless.
VM: I had a bit of contact with her, but not a great deal. I was quite impressed with her, her sincerity and also the way in which she worked.
Well she is still going.
VM: That is good to see.
Well, I’d better get off that subject, I suppose. Now what was your involvement in the Credit Union Movement at that Parish? Can you remember the foundation meeting of that credit union?
VM: Yes. I was one of the original Directors of St Christopher’s Parish Credit Union and I can pretty well call to mind the number of people, or the names of people who were on it with me. I think if my memory serves me correct I was cast as the Treasurer of the credit union there and basically I suppose on account of my accountancy experience and where I worked. It was active and it was also the basis of the workforces which were required around the parish for getting buildings done and things like that. It served two purposes and that was one of them.
Who were the Directors and Chairman of that credit union?
VM: Well the Chairman of Directors at the time was fellow by the name of Fred Kenyon, who was the builder of the parish, who did all the building work for the very start of the parish in 1955. Harry Cope, who is also deceased, he was the Secretary of it and Bob McConnell was the Assistant Secretary. He is not deceased but the other one who was one of the mainstays of the Directors is also deceased. There were only five that I can recall and only two of us are still alive.
Is that Antigonish Credit Union still going?
VM: No, it folded up. It did fold up it would have been in the early 1970s that the credit union folded up. Because by that time the ??????????? credit unions had become very much established and in most cases ???????????????????????????????????????? members of the credit union there.
So your next involvement would have been in?
VM: Well, I was the foundation Chairman of Directors of the Taxation Officers Credit Union as it was then known and the third person to get a loan. I can remember that. We didn’t have a refrigerator at that stage and I got one hundred pound loan from the credit union and I went over to Halstrom’s and bought wholesale a ??????? refrigerator.
Probably the greatest thing you ever bought. Have you still got it?
VM: No, not now.
Do you remember how much it cost?
VM: It was, from my own knowledge, I think it was one hundred and fifteen pound, which was in those days a fairly large amount.
What year was that, have you any idea?
VM: It would have been around about 1956.
Was that the same year that the Commonwealth Income Tax Employees Credit Union was set up?
VM: Yes, because I borrowed from them, the Taxation Officers Credit Union.
Can you remember who was at the inaugural meeting of that?
VM: Yes. The Vice-Chairman of it was Mary Mutton, who now lives up here at Kilcare
Any relation to Larry Mutton?
VM: No, the opposite of the fence, politically. The subsequent Secretary-Manager was Pat Knowles who became a full-time Secretary-Manager, she was part-time, after a couple of years she became the full-time Secretary-Manager of that credit union. About nine months ago she retired from office and I was privileged to be present at a very nice presentation out at the New South Wales Leagues Club. She put in a heck of a lot of time into the whole Credit Union Movement. There were problems. Originally we were affiliated with the New South Wales Credit Union League but it caused a fair amount of disputation with us. It was decided to pull out of the League and I had unbroken service on the credit union from the time it started to the time I left the Taxation Office to go into Parliament, and I was very miserable when they did pull out but that was in about 1968 that they did pull out of the New South Wales Credit Union League, basically on account of the subscriptions which were payable.
Well 1968 was the year that you were a Director.
VM: Yes I was and I had to drop out as a Director.
So who put you up as a Director on the League?
VM: I think the one who pushed me in was Dermot Ryan. We both had Labor Party affiliations, he was farther left of centre than I was, but he was a Tommy Uren man, mainly because Tom was his member there. He was a bit left of centre.
Most people reckon that Dermot was right wing, although he was a friend of Tom Uren.
VM: I never found it that way. Dermot was left wing to this degree, where we had people in the Party who opposed Head Office, Head Office domination of the Party itself. Whenever anyone does that they are classed as left wing.
Did Dermot oppose Head Office domination then?
VM: Dermot was opposed to Head Office of the Party having too much influence on the decision-making process. I think he was right too.
I agree too, but nobody has ever called me a left winger.
VM: Well it is used as a derogatory term, the left and right wing if you are opposed. The idea is if you are opposed to the right wing domination or the Office’s domination then you are a left winger.
When did you first meet Dermot Ryan?
VM: I first met Dermot within the Credit Union Movement after we were affiliated with the New South Wales Credit Union League and that would have been in the late 1950s, I would think. I became a pretty good friend of Dermot’s I must admit. I admired him, I respected him and I think his heart was always on his sleeve and he would do things not for what he would get out of it but for what he could put into it and that was my summation of Dermot.
Did you go to any of the early Newport schools?
VM: Yes, I went to a couple of schools. I was never a good drinker, particularly amongst the City Council who were some of the best drinkers there were, but those fellows would work there also for the Credit Union Movement and after being with those and also meeting up with blokes like Paddy Bailey who was an American Negro who was a very dedicated credit union member. A lot of the arguments evolved around the whole issue of the insurance side of it, credit union insurers and so on. Unfortunately that caused quite a few splits within the Movement, one of which was Stan Arneil.
How long did you know Stan Arneil
VM: I would have known Stan less time than I knew Dermot. I didn’t know him very well except that at the time when I first met him he was one of the leaders of the ..
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7 JUNE 1990: INTERVIEWER RICHARD RAXWORTHY: TALKING WITH VINCE MARTIN
So when exactly did you meet Arneil. Was he President of the Association, of the League at the time? Was he working at the Registrar’s office, or what?
VM: No he wasn’t at the Registrar’s office to my knowledge, I think he was President of the New South Wales Credit Union League. I am pretty certain that he was the President also when I attended my first meeting as a delegate to the League.
Was that an annual meeting or half-yearly meeting?
VM: That would have been an annual meeting, a normal delegates meeting, as Director of a credit union, yes. I am pretty certain he was the President or Chairman, whichever was the correct term for it, when I attended my first meeting as a Director of the New South Wales Credit Union League. Some time later the years animosities became fairly apparent and I am not certain who followed him, it may have been Ken Miller.
No it wasn’t Ken Miller. No who it was, was Don Harvey. Don apparently disagreed with him. What happened was that Stan Arneil had the job of Development Officer at the Registrar’s Office and he was President at the same time and there was a disagreement over whether he should do that.
VM: Yes, that’s right. Later Ken Miller became President. I don’t think Harvey stayed for very long as President. Ken Miller became President.
How did you get on with Ken Miller?
VM: I got on well with Ken Miller. I found Ken a pretty intelligent sort of bloke and a very capable bloke. I got on well with Ken.
When your credit union went out of the League, who in your credit union was it who was particularly for it leaving the League? You were for it staying in the League, who was in your credit union against it staying in the League?
VM: There were a couple of the Directors. They didn’t have the numbers on the Board of the credit union but under the rules they either called a special meeting or I think it was at the annual meeting that they put up a notice of motion to disaffiliate from the Credit Union League. The grounds that they used were the amount of money they were paying in the way of subscriptions and they weren’t getting the benefits back as far as service from the League and they got the numbers at the annual meeting.
Was this at the same time that the Southern Association had the same ideas?
VM: Yes, it was at the same time. After that happened and they left the Credit Union League they did in fact join the Southern Association because their subs were a fair bit cheaper than what the League’s were. There was an exception raised because of, for want of a better word, some of the shenanigans that went on at the functions that were held and also the tutorial classes that were held at the Newport Hotel and that was used by these opponents of the League to sway the members of the credit union to leave the League.
Was that Room 19?
VM: Yes, Room 19 had the most grog I have ever seen in my life.
Whose room was Room 19?
VM: Room 19 belonged to the City Council Credit Union and the grape certainly flowed thick and fast although they must have been good drinkers because it certainly didn’t seem to affect the decision-making and taking part in the tutorials which went on at Newport.
I understand Father Ganey and Stan Arneil didn’t mind a drink in Room 19?
VM: No, not in the least. Father Ganey was only at one of the meetings, the Credit Union League would have paid his way from Fiji. One of the things that stuck out in my memory was listening to Father Ganey and his ?????? which he had when he could tell us what exactly went on in the ?????? and what they did in Fiji. The Fijians themselves couldn’t get any loan from any bank to even buy such a thing as a fishing net. In fact there was a movie which was put on there about Fiji and just showing what had occurred and the joy it meant getting a credit union loan to get a fishing net for the Fijians.
Do you know what credit unions paid Father Ganey’s way? I understand it was three credit unions?
VM: To my knowledge the City Council was one, I think the County Council would have been the other one because they were both very active.
I heard the ABC was the next one?
VM: I have an idea it was the ABC and probably the promoter of the ABC, I think his name was Stewart, yes that’s right Clarrie Stewart. ???????? from the ABC ?????????? himself.
Stan Arneil of course started the ABC Credit Union.
VM: Yes he did start the ABC Credit Union and he and Clarrie Stewart were different personalities all together.
Father Ganey, did you like his style?
VM: Yes, I thought Father Ganey was a most dedicated person, a very, very bright person, a very studious-type of person and he really had the indigenous people at heart. His background, he had been requested by the British Government to ??????? British Honduras and they asked Father Ganey to come over there to set up the Credit Union Movement in that country. I understand that he was over there for about twelve years and it became a thriving credit union when he left. The British Government again, who had the control of Fiji, asked him would he do the same in Fiji and he willingly accepted and he went there and he set up credit unions basically for the Fijians themselves and I had the honour when I was in Parliament of going over to Fiji. Dermot Ryan had been in touch with me and we were in Government at the time so it was around about 1972, 1973.
Couldn’t have been 1974 or 1975 could it?
VM: Could have been.
Wasn’t twice?
VM: I didn’t go twice.
I have got down his movements. When he was actually retired from AFCUL that is the last thing he did for the Foundation, I understand, with you to go over there.
VM: That could well be so. But he saw me in Canberra, pointing out the fact that Father Ganey was having problems finance-wise in the administration, basically, of the Credit Union Movement in Fiji and what were the chances of getting some assistance from Australia, from the Federal Government. I did discuss it with our Minister for Foreign Affairs at the time and he said that the request would have to come either from the Credit Union Movement or from the Fijian Government. We just couldn’t unilaterally do it and just give them money for the credit union purposes. So, with Dermot Ryan I went over to Fiji, interviewed Father Ganey and saw members of the Credit Union Movement in Fiji who were all indigenous Fijians. After several days discussions he came to the opinion, and others agreed, that it would be preferable not to take money from outside Fiji itself. I pointed out to him that we could probably get it as part of Commonwealth aid to countries who were dependant on other sources for finance, but his final words on it were, ‘For the good of the Credit Union Movement in Fiji it is preferable that they be self-supporting.’ Both Dermot and I accepted his decision on it. But it didn’t do any harm going over there to let them know that Australia wasn’t disinterested in the welfare of another country like Fiji.
But of course it didn’t stop there, because the Australian Foundation had already started and it is still going very well today.
VM: The Australian Foundation here is helping Fiji?
It’s helping Fiji and it’s helping the Philippines, Hong Kong and a number of other places.
VM: That is something I didn’t know. That is tremendous.
Credit unions all over the place, and the Government puts three for one, I think.
VM: The Australian Government? Oh very good. Well our work didn’t fail.
Oh no, it didn’t fail.
VM: I didn’t know.
That is unusual because I felt Dermot was planning that way and that he had seen it through. Whereas the people who saw it through, mind you there is one of his credit unions who did see it through and that was Molly Ryan I believe, Keith Glover from Victoria and of course Dave Lawler from Sydney Credit Union.
VM: And is Father Ganey still back in Fiji?
I think he is not alive now, he is dead.
VM: He wasn’t a well man while we were there.
At this stage, we have jumped a bit here, we have jumped quite a bit, when did you first go into Parliament and why?
VM: I went in 1969, late 1969.
Before you went in were you involved in the push to set up the Credit Union Act in New South Wales?
VM: Yes, I was but not to a great degree, mainly to the extent of seeing that it didn’t disadvantage the existing credit unions and didn’t give overall control to the Registry of Credit Unions and Co-operative Societies. But I didn’t have a big part in that. Gough Whitlam asked me to come into Parliament. There was a vacancy for the Federal seat where I lived coming up in 1969 and the previous occupant had to retire on account of age.
Who was that?
VM: It was Eric Costa. I had been active in the Labor Party. I was Secretary of the Panania Branch for eighteen years. I had joined in July 1949, shortly after I’d got there from ???? Housing Settlement, and still stayed in the Movement during those years too. As a matter of interest, I am going down this weekend to get presented with my Life Membership of the Australian Labor Party for forty years service in it at the Sydney Town Hall on Saturday. I had gone through all the Assessing Sections, I had been in the Investigation Section for fifteen years in the Sydney Taxation Office, I had an extremely good knowledge of the problems of tax avoidance and Gough didn’t. Frank Crean, who was the Shadow Treasurer didn’t have a great knowledge of Taxation Law, in fact there was no one in Parliament who did. After a lot of heart burnings with my wife, she finally agreed that I should contest the pre-selection ballot of 1968. There were twelve candidates and I finally won. I went into Federal Parliament in 1969. I used to write most of Gough Whitlam’s speeches on tax. His speech writer, Graham Friend, would knock them into shape. But I had another thing on my plate when I went in, I thought to myself well this is a good opportunity to try and do something for the Credit Union Movement. I had in mind to attempt to get credit unions exempted from income taxes. They were in most other countries in the world, particularly, Canada, the United States, Germany and England. We were one of the few countries in the world where the income of credit unions was subject to income tax. I used to in those days, between 1969 and 1972 when we won Government, I used to ask questions of the Liberal Treasurer of the day, they had a couple in my day between that period, and in no case would they give any indication that there was any possibility of getting this tax exemption granted to credit unions. So we won Government in 1972 and I thought to myself this was the opportunity prior to us winning Government to do something for the Credit Union Movement and at the same time to get some political capital out of it for the Labor Party. Between us, between Dermot Ryan, Senator George Georges from Queensland and Jack Walsh from Canberra, who was the Chairman of the equivalent of the Credit Union League in Canberra, and a young lady down there whose name I can’t remember now.
Dorothy Salles?
VM: Dorothy Salles who was the Secretary of the ANU Credit Union, we got together and agreed that what we would do would be that if we could get Whitlam to agree to promise that if Labor got elected to power to exempt the income of credit unions, issue a publication or a newspaper and it was called Quest in all the States through our credit union friends, highlighting the fact what Labor was promising. It could have a couple of purposes one was helping to get Labor into power and if we got Labor into power if Whitlam agreed we would get the income of credit unions exempted. We had a meeting with Gough Whitlam down there. Present were Jack Coyne, Dermot, Dorothy Salles, Jack White and myself, I think we were the only five who were present with Gough Whitlam and we had no problem with him at all, he said, ‘Yes, I’m quite happy to give you that pledge and give you that promise. The best thing to do,’ he said, ‘is you dictate the letter to my secretary and if it is in agreement I will sign in, if we agree it I will sign it and you can publish it.’ We told him that we had in mind to publish a newspaper. Senator George Georges was also present at that meeting. We did a copy of the letter in the rough and he knocked it into shape, his secretary typed it, he signed it and he said, ‘Right you can do what you like with it.’ We had it printed in the newspaper during the election campaign. When we got into Government I went to Frank Crean, Frank wasn’t the toughest bloke in the world, getting on with public servants. So I said to Gough, ‘OK can I see Frank Crean about getting this through.’ He said, ‘Oh yes, you do that.’ Comrade I think he calls me. So I saw Frank Crean and he had no qualms about it. He said, ‘Oh yes, if the Leader promised that, that is it, the Prime Minister.’ Then AFCUL were on my back, ‘Let’s get this show on the road.’ So once again we had a similar group to interview in the company of Frank Crean, the Second Commissioner of Taxation who was a friend of ours as it turned out. Keith ?????, he and I had come up the same way in the Tax Office. He came into the Department one year later than I did but he was brighter than me. So there we were sitting in Frank Crean’s Office with Keith ????? and the others there and so he introduced them to Keith ??????, the Second Commissioner of Taxation from Canberra and Frank Crean says, ‘Righto, Vince you can take over now, I’ll go out I’ve got some work to do.’ So I though to myself, ‘My God, he is putting the knuckle right in to me, I’ve got to take Keith ??????’ So ??????????, the Second Commissioner of Taxation said to me, ‘Vince,’ he said, ‘I’m not going to introduce that legislation.’ So I said to him, ‘Keith, you’ve got no alternative. You’ve read haven’t you what the Prime Minister has said, you’ve heard what the Treasurer has said?’ So he said, ‘It’s a waste of time ??????????,’ so he just got up and walked out. I said, ‘Keith, for Godsake come back,’ I said, ‘we want to get this sorted,’ I said, ‘your father was a wharf labourer,’ I said, ‘you should be willing to help us and do something about this.’ He got on to the point that there could be millions of tax avoidance by people other than genuine credit unions in it and so we talked around the subject. It went on for a reasonable amount of time and he finally agreed, ‘Yes all right, I’ll put her up and I am certain the Commissioner of Taxation will agree with what I say, but as long as I tell it so long as there is no tax avoidance angles in it.’ The rest of us agreed that that was in order and it was one of the most happy days of my life when the legislation was introduced into the Parliament and carried. It has saved the Credit Union Movement over the years many, many millions of dollars which can be better used. But that was the story of it, of how we finally got it through.
Did Dermot Ryan come into this at all?
VM: Yes, Dermot was there the whole time. I am sorry if I have left Dermot off. Dermot would have been there at every interview that we ever had, Dermot was the one who would get on my back. Dermot was the architect. Dermot was the architect of the greater percentage of things which happened within my time in the credit union, he was the architect.
Did you know anything about the bottles of beer story in Frank Crean’s office?
VM: No, we knocked them off did we?
He was supposed to have some sort of bet or something and he produced these bottles of beer.
VM: I can’t remember that.
He used to tell the story. I haven’t got it first hand off anybody. I tried to get it out of Frank Crean but then he got me to tell the story and he said, ‘Oh well if he says it’s right it’s got to be hasn’t it?’
VM: Frank Crean and I were pretty good mates because Frank used to be in the Taxation Office in Victoria in the early 1940s, this is State Tax, and very much a genuine bloke Frank, but not very pushy, that was the reason he left me with Keith ?????? and went out so that they couldn’t blame him, they could blame Vince.
Tell me, were you involved with any of the lobbying during the time of the previous Government, the Gorton Government?
VM: On credit unions. Yes.
Were you at any of the interviews?
VM: No, I wasn’t at any of the interviews.
There are a lot of Dermot stories amongst that one. One about Ainslie Ghotto.
VM: Yes, Ainslie.
Did he ever tell you that one?
VM: No, he didn’t tell me that one.
Well you are going to have to listen to the tape because I am not going to tell you I think.
VM: No the only thing I know about Ainslie is when I went in there I was pretty cocky, I think it was 1972 we were having a function in Kings Hall and Ainslie Ghotto was sitting on a chair in the corner and I went over to her and I said, ‘Miss Ghotto, I believe you’re a pretty fair tennis player,’ I said, ‘I play tennis.’ She said, ‘Oh do you, well I’m a bitch at tennis, also.’ That is as far as it went. So I said, ‘Goodbye.’ That was the only time I had a talk with Ainslie.
I didn’t know she was that up front. The story that Dermot told was that she said, ‘You’ve got exactly a quarter of an hour with the Prime Minister,’ and Dermot said that Gorton’s door was opening so he said, ‘Do you want to bet?’ and she said, ‘A quarter of an hour.’ So Gorton said to him, according to Dermot, ‘What was that all about?’ Dermot said, ‘She said that I’ve got exactly a quarter of an hour with you and I thought that was up to you so I said do you want to bet.’ Apparently then Dermot came out and he got an hour with him, but they didn’t get anything. As a matter of fact Dermot reported that the only thing he got was a box of matches he nicked off his desk.
VM: Well that would be Dermot.
That’s his story and he was sticking to it. What about Dame Annabelle
VM: No, I wasn’t there in Dame Annabelle’s time I don’t think.
She was with Gorton. She was Housing Minister for awhile. They went to a delegation re the Home Savings Grant thing allowed to go through the credit unions. Were you involved with that?
VM: I wasn’t involved in that, but I was involved for the credit unions getting credit union pay through the union. I was very active in the Administrative and Clerical Officers Association during the whole of my time in the Taxation Office and I was involved in getting the approval it would have been of the Liberal Government to have credit union instalments taken out of the pay of Commonwealth public servants.
Payroll deductions.
VM: Yes, payroll deductions.
What about the push to get accreditation for the credit unions to get payments of social security?
VM: That was a bit after my time. I wasn’t involved in that even when I was in the Federal Parliament. I don’t think I was involved in that.
Well, you covered that period fairly well. Can you remember any other annual meetings? You used to attend AFCUL meetings?
VM: I would have only attended two AFCUL meetings in the period when I was an alternate delegate. I used to attend well before I became a Director of the Credit Union League, I used to attend the annual meetings of the Credit Union League itself. They were woolly affairs on some occasions, mainly on how the money was spent. My memory is a bit short on some of those things.
What about the 1974 Annual Conference at Hobart where Frank Crean announced the tax exemption?
VM: Yes I was there. I was at that. In fact I had to pilot Frank down there to make sure he got there. It was one of the hallmarks of things which we did achieve for Frank to come down there at Hobart and to make the announcements which he did and he really enjoyed it. He knew a fair bit about credit unions as such. A lot of Members of Parliament didn’t and still don’t know much about credit unions as such. Probably we don’t in the Credit Union Movement, we don’t browbeat Members of Parliament sufficiently because it is only when you realise that you are a Member of Parliament and so much stuff does come over your desk, and you’ve got to read it, it doesn’t all go into the wastepaper basket, you’ve got to read it and I think you must agree maybe we could fall down a bit just letting Members of Parliament know what benefits credit unions are to the whole of the Australian community.
End Tape 1B: 3,835 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes.