29 APRIL 1994: WA3: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO ARTHUR CARTER
What is your full name Mr Carter?
AC: Arthur Andrew Carter.
What year were you born?
AC: 1922.
Whereabouts?
AC: Northam.
Is that outside Perth?
AC: It is about sixty miles from Perth out in the wheat area.
Is that towards the east is it?
AC: Yes it is on the Great Eastern Highway.
Yes, I know it. I came through there on a bicycle many years ago. Did you grow up around there?
AC: No. I lived there until I was about five and then we went to a place called Dalwallinu which is further up in the wheat belt.
Did you go to school there? Did you grow up there?
AC: Yes I went to school there. I did a couple of years at Northam High School then I went back to Dalwallinu and completed the junior year there, what they used to call the junior year.
So you were at Northam High and then Dalwallinu Junior. What were your family influences do you think?
AC: Oh well they were farming people. Originally the family had the farm in Northam and then my father shifted to Dalwallinu.
What about school influences? Anything particularly?
AC: No, not really.
Right. What did you do when you left school?
AC: Well I went to work in a machinery firm in Perth. At that time I was about sixteen and didn’t really know what I wanted to do. But I was doing accountancy studies until I was nearly nineteen, or just nineteen. Then I joined the navy.
Right.
AC: That was in 1941.
Were you studying accountancy at night or by correspondence?
AC: At night yes.
You joined the navy. When would that have been?
AC: That was June 1941.
Right. Where did you go?
AC: Oh well I went to Victoria to do my what they called new entry training. Then I did a radar course in Sydney at Rushcutter’s Bay. Then I went to the cruiser Canberra which was sunk in the Solomons at the landing of Guadacanal in August 1942.
Were you on her?
AC: Yes. I went back to Sydney and after leave I was drafted to England to pick up the Shropshire which was a British cruiser which was given to the Australian Navy to replace the Canberra. We picked up the Shropshire in Chatham and arrived out in Australia in about October 1943, no earlier than that, about the middle of August of something in 1943. We arrived back into Australia and then she went up into the Pacific and took part in quite a lot of campaigns in the Pacific.
You went with her?
AC: Yes.
Anything special other than that?
AC: Oh well. We were there for the invasion of the Philippines. I was drafted off after the invasion. I lost a finger on board. But I was there for the invasion of the Philippines. This year actually is the fiftieth anniversary of what was known as the Battle of Suriga Straits in the Philippines which Shropshire took part in. As far as I am aware she was the only Australian warship to exchange fire with a Japanese battleship, the Yamashiro, which was sunk. We claimed several hits on the Yamashiro. I was then drafted back, sent off Shropshire back to recuperate, convalesce in Brisbane, then I went back to Flinders Naval Depot in Victoria and did another gunnery course. I then joined a destroyer called the Quickmatch. We were then cruising the islands in the Pacific. The War was then over and a lot of the Japanese troops had been left on these islands to fend for themselves because the Japanese Navy had no ships to repatriate them. We had to go round the islands with army interpreters to see that these people were looking after themselves. We did that until June 1946, when I was discharged.
What did you do after that?
AC: Well I originally went back to the firm where I worked before. But I decided that I was going to something better than that so I applied for rehabilitation training in electrical engineering. I took that up at the beginning of 1947. I completed that course. I did it with what is now the Institute of Technology, it was then the Perth Technical College. That course took four years whereas the engineering course at university was five years. At that stage I reckoned I wanted to start earning some money. So I did that course and I then went to work for the Railways in Perth as a senior draughtsman until I got a position with the then State Electricity Commission as an electrical engineer. I had fifteen years with the State Electricity Commission as a maintenance engineer at the South Fremantle Power Station. Then I applied for a position as an electrical engineer with the Fremantle Port Authority where I spent the next fifteen years until I retired in 1982.
Now where did you first hear about credit unions?
AC: Well it was at South Fremantle Power Station in 1962. One of the clerks there had got some information from the Taxation Department Credit Union and suggested we form a credit union. So we formed what was then the South Fremantle Credit Union, I was a Foundation Director, in 1962. I was Secretary-Treasurer of that credit union from 1964 to 1967. In that time I was involved in what was the Credit Union League of Western Australia.
In 1967?
AC: From 1964 to 1967 I was Secretary-Treasurer of South Fremantle. It was in that period and following on from when I went to the Port Authority, it was in that period that I was involved in the Credit Union League as a delegate to AFCUL. Then in 1967 when I transferred to the Fremantle Port Authority I had no connection with credit unions, other than having an account with them. But in 1970 I became a Director of the then Tallyclerks Credit Union, but shortly to be called the Fremantle Credit Union. I was a Director of the Fremantle Credit Union until 1973 when I became Chairman of Directors. I was Chairman of Directors for ten years, until 1983 when I stepped down and somebody else went in as Chairman. Then in 1985 I was on a trip around Australia by caravan with my wife and decided now was the time to get out so I resigned as a Director.
What about League Director? Were you a League Director?
AC: Yes I was a Director with the Credit Union League from 1973 until it wound up.
Now why?
AC: Well it was wound up because, mainly as I recall, we always did have a battle with getting certain of the larger credit unions involved in the League. Teachers’ was one, CSA was the other one. Then the first Credit Union Act came into being and the then Registrar of Building Societies who was responsible for credit unions said that it was essential that we form one body, everybody was to be in it. Reluctantly then Teachers’ and CSA came into the act but insisted that it would not be the Credit Union League it would be the Credit Union Association.
That was what year, that was 1974 was it?
AC: Might have been around about 1974, yes.
1973 the League was wound up, I know that. 1974 I think the Association began.
AC: I think the Association would have been formed around about 1974, yes.
Now Dennis Hagan was talking about having a good deal of criticism of the old League at the time. He reckoned there was a lot of people had arguments with the League. Do you remember any of that?
AC: No, not really. The League as a League with its member credit unions and worked fairly well with AFCUL. I don’t remember where Dennis was then. There were probably people who didn’t believe in the idea of the League and as I say the Teachers’ and CSA were those people who felt they were better on their own and didn’t really want to deal with the League or AFCUL in those days.
Apparently he had a defalcation and they had some money.
AC: Oh yes we go back to the old Morley, was that the one?
I think his name was Smith actually. The argument was apparently they just loaned him some money to tide him over with the defalcation. The next thing they asked for it back. Now I know the background.
AC: See where I am in trouble here is that my memory is not that good. I do now remember that Dennis Hagan and I had words on the phone. There was something about they wanted this fund you see, that had to have this money. Dennis was adamant that he wouldn’t put in and we did have words. I remember Smith played a big part in it. I don’t really remember what the guts of it was.
Well it was a defalcation of $100,000. Dermot Ryan lent the Western Australian League the money, because they didn’t happen to have it spare at the time. Dermot didn’t get the sanction of the Board and he ran into trouble with them over a number of other things, AFCUL Board. So he had to ask for it back. But I believe Dennis didn’t know anything about that. All he knew was it was an argument with the League. But Dermot got in strife over it. Mind you he was in strife over other things.
AC: I don’t think Dermot would worry very much.
Oh yes, that is what he got fired over in 1974.
AC: Well he was a bit of a happy-go-lucky sort of a bloke.
You remember him do you?
AC: Of course. I knew Dermot well. I liked Dermot. I got on well with Dermot. I was very sad when he went. He was a funny sort of a guy but he was a good worker. I remember once he had a six-monthly conference, I think they called it, in Canberra. Dermot produced the Annual Report.
I have that Report, I found it yesterday.
AC: Well several people had problems with mistakes or omission or various things in this Report. Every time Dermot tried to get the thing passed somebody would have another go at him. Anyway he finished up with a famous remark of his, ‘Anyway it has got a bloody good cover.’ That was Dermot Ryan. Have you spoken to Reg Beale?
Well I tried today but we both missed each other. I am going to speak to him later.
AC: He is a hard man to get hold of. I tried to get him yesterday to jog my memory on a few things. But I do remember when, I am pretty sure it was, the old League folded up there was always a joke about Reg Beale’s garage. He reckoned he had all the bloody garage full of files and Minutes and things. Now if anybody can look up for you details of things like you were talking about with Dennis Hagan and Dermot Ryan, it would be Reg. It was only a couple of weeks ago I struck him at the golf club, he was visiting our golf club. I jokingly said to him, ‘Have you still got all those things in your garage?’ He laughed and he said, ‘Oh a lot of it is still around.’
Yes, well if he wants to get rid of it the Historical Co-operative side will be after it. I will tell him.
AC: He would be the guy who should have this stuff with him and he may have a better memory than I have. He would have been involved at the same time. He was on the League before.
Well I have got his card right in front of me and I have been trying to get him today. When he has been available I have not been there and vice versa. Now he has gone home and I rang him at home and he was engaged. I left a message so I will probably catch him during the weekend, maybe. Were you on the Association Board?
AC: Yes.
For how long? How long were you on the League Board first off? You were a Director at the Teleclerks from 1970. How long were you at Fremantle Credit Union on the Board?
AC: I finally resigned as a Director in 1985. Even though I retired from the Port Authority in 1982 I still carried on as a Director of the credit union until I went on this trip in 1985. What happened they had an Annual Meeting about the appointment of a Director and two of them had tied. I rang up, I think I was on the Gold Coast, and asked the Manager, ‘How did the election go?’ He said that so and so and so and so have tied and they had to do a ballot. I said, ‘Listen, this isn’t right. I am going around Australia in a caravan and these guys want to be Directors and I am holding them out. So I am resigning.’ That let them in, so that was when I pulled out as a Director in 1985.
Now what about the League? How many years were you there? From 1973 was it, or earlier?
AC: Oh I was on the League about 1964, I think.
Well it can’t have been 1964, because the League didn’t start until 1966.
AC: 1966, well I would have been on it from 1966. I know I was a Director of the League when I was at South Fremantle. Was it in 1966 the League was formed? I thought it was longer than that.
Yes Credit Union League of WA 1966. The first credit union was founded in WA in 1960. There were two in the same year ABC and CSA.
AC: Well Taxation was about then.
They were the second year. They were the third credit union but in 1961 they started.
AC: I reckon I would have been a Foundation Director on the League. In 1962 South Fremantle was born. We joined the League almost immediately.
You were from 1966 to 1973. Then with the Association from 1974 to when?
AC: With the Association I pulled out of in 1982. Hang on a minute it was just before I went away, about 1984 or 1985. I remember saying I was going around Australia by caravan and I would be giving up my duties on the Association Board.
Right. Now how did the Association start? Did it start well or was there problems with that too?
AC: Oh no. It started well. As far as I was concerned from the League we wanted the thing to work. We had these now reluctant bridesmaids like Clarkie from Teachers’ and the CSA in. I wanted them in because of their expertise. They must have had expertise if they were that big. They were doing all right and had good results. So I thought we could use their expertise. As far as I remember the Association worked quite well. They were never very happy about AFCUL, never very happy about us paying dues to AFCUL because they thought that was a bit of waste of money.
Incidentally you were the delegate to AFCUL weren’t you? Now why did WA withdraw from AFCUL and then rejoin? When AFCUL first started in 1970, I believe that they were in immediately. But a couple of years later they were in. Wait a minute, they were in in 1970 and went through until about 1974 I think. Then they weren’t in for about four or five years. Then they were back in again. You were the delegate.
AC: Yes I was but I don’t recall why we would have pulled out though. That is the trouble when you are not in touch with it all the time, you forget these things.
The League, did that have a Manager?
AC: Not initially it didn’t. It had a couple of Managers after that before it became the Association.
It had a couple of Managers before it became the Association?
AC: Yes from memory we had Darryl Gore, a chap called Darryl Gore. I don’t know whether we called him the Manager or whether we called him the Secretary, but he was certainly a paid official. Secretary-Manager possibly. I wanted to ring Darryl today actually, but I couldn’t get him. I know I have got a photo of January 1970 when a chap called Paddy Bailey, have you ever heard of Paddy Bailey, came over to Western Australia. He was one of these famous American credit union bods. I have got a photo of John Kealley, who was then Manager of Fremantle, Paddy Bailey, myself and Darryl Gore. Now the only reason Darryl Gore would have been there was because he was working for the Credit Union League.
Paddy Bailey was Secretary of the International, CUNA International. He was a Jamaican.
AC: Yes, that is right he was a Jamaican.
He is still alive, by the way.
AC: Is he?
Yes. I was talking to Al Charbonneau, I did an interview with Al Charbonneau down in Hobart. He was talking about Paddy Bailey. They have got him doing an oral history now, at our instigation incidentally. We have got no part in it of course. We wanted to get him recorded before he passed on, you know. He came over to Australia for the Newport School in New South Wales. Did you go to any of those Schools?
AC: I didn’t go to Newport, I went to Warburton.
Incidentally the last one at Warburton, I think it was 1973, I have got one of the little newsheets they used to have. No it wasn’t in Warburton, it was in South Australia.
AC: The guru of credit unions in our time was Stan Arneil.
Did you know him?
AC: You have got a lot of stuff on Stan I suppose. I knew him well. Stan used to come over here and we used to organise seminars for Stan to address the members. It was a long time after I knew Stan that I found out he was a POW of the Japanese.
So what was Stan in those days?
AC: Well he was Chairman of AFCUL. He was Chairman of AFCUL for a long time until they had a big battle about something. He then went on to CUNA.
Well my query is when this was. At the time he was Chairman of AFCUL he was Australian Manager and Vice-President of CUNA Mutual Insurance. That is what led to the conflict of interests that got him into trouble.
AC: Well I am sure he was Chairman of AFCUL before he was involved with CUNA.
He was instrumental in founding AFCUL and he was already Manager of CUNA Mutual-CUMIS in Australia by that time. He was Manager in 1965 and they formed AFCUL in 1966 at a Newport School. There was only Queenslanders and New South Wales involved at first. Did he get you sponsorship from CUNA Mutual for your Schools over in Western Australia, seminars?
AC: No.
Well he must have paid Paddy Bailey’s way, or some of that off the Americans.
AC: Yes somebody must have paid Paddy Bailey’s way, because we wouldn’t have paid him we didn’t have the money. But Stan used to come over on his own, but whether CUNA Mutual used to pay for him I am not sure. We just used to organise a ball at the Institute.
Did you insure with CUNA Mutual?
AC: Yes.
Did you keep insuring with CUNA Mutual?
AC: Well for as long as I remember, as long as I was at Fremantle we did.
Do you remember the insurance split in New South Wales and Victoria. They had a head policy with CUNA Mutual-CUMIS and they actually invited them to come over in the first place. However, it proved later on, so they said, that they were uneconomical compared to local insurance companies, so they removed them. That was when there was all hell let loose in the credit union movement in general. Some took sides with Stan Arneil and others just went straight down the line with the League and the VCCA. The movement has been split ever since. Did that happen in Western Australia? Did anything happen there?
AC: No. As far as I can remember we stayed with CUNA Mutual.
Mind you some people who did take sides still stayed with CUNA Mutual, if you get what I mean. I know credit unions which have been in the New South Wales League all the way through but they didn’t insure through the League, they went straight through CUNA Mutual. As a matter of fact I have not managed to confirm the figures that they have in those days to confirm that the decision was made on purely economic grounds. There might have been more to it than that. As a matter of fact Stan used to talk to me on the telephone, but he refused to be recorded.
AC: That is strange.
Well he claimed that he would be defamatory, you see. I said, ‘Well you work at the ABC you should know that we can take care of that. Anyway you are entitled to your own opinion.’
AC: Have you spoken to Jack Coyne?
Oh my goodness yes.
AC: Is he still fit and well.
Yes, he is still Chairman of Sydney Credit Union.
AC: Is he? A good bloke Jack.
He is like myself, he has just had a heart by-pass. But unfortunately he has put on weight again. Back on the booze although he is permanently off the cigarettes. But unfortunately he is very silly. He has had the by-pass and he was really fit.
AC: He was such a big healthy bloke too. He was.
He was but he has been pretty crook. Anyway he has got all the things I have got. He was diagnosed a diabetic, massively overweight, heart attack. He had a by-pass operation and got all that cleared up and for a while he was on the straight and narrow, but now he is back on eating too much and the booze.
AC: What about Graham Benson, is he still around?
Graham Benson is alive, but he is not in the movement. He had that business when he nearly went to gaol. Nothing to do with the credit union. He advised one of the people who I believe was in one of the retirement investment outfits in how to handle the taxation and they got charged with conspiracy to defraud the Taxation. There was a big fine and he didn’t get sent to gaol. But he has sort of retired from the movement in general now. Although he has got a garage and he has got all the tapes from the Warburton Schools. Dermot on them and all sorts of people. I doubt if they are any good any more because they are reel-to-reel and they have been sitting there for years. If you don’t use them unfortunately they just gradually degrade. I have been trying to persuade him to put them over on to reel-to-reel, but it would be a massive job. He keeps on saying he is going to give them to his son, but by the time his son gets them there won’t be anything left of them.
AC: What is his son?
His son was in the movement but he isn’t any longer. I think he has got some idea they are valuable or something. They are only valuable if they can be used, but they haven’t any financial value. Just of interest to the movement. As a matter of fact I sent a letter on Saturday to try and get the CUSCAL people down in Victoria to send him a letter asking if they could have some material from that collection he has, to copy it for him. I haven’t heard back again. I have had three or four goes at this. He is very quiet. I have recorded him. I recorded him after Dermot’s wake. He was talking about Dermot and since Dermot had just died he was very mellow about things. I understand they used to fight as well.
AC: Well he seems to have been around for a long time, Graham Benson.
Well Graham was Chairman of AFCUL at the time that Dermot was Chief Executive Officer. So when he was putting through these interstate loans without paper work Graham was the one he should have consulted. After Dermot they changed the rules and the Secretary was not on the Executive after that. The Executive consisted of a President and a Vice-President.
AC: I don’t know how much help I am being to you.
Wait a minute you haven’t finished yet. What about Savings Protection Funds? Do you remember trying to get one going in Western Australia? Did you get one going? A voluntary fund run by the League, was there one?
AC: Yes we did get one going. It wasn’t compulsory.
It could have been because some people were out of it, not members.
AC: That is where I think when Morley went to the wall, I think the Savings Protection Fund had to come to the rescue.
Morley?
AC: Morley Credit Union. I think it was a parish.
Where was it?
AC: Morley is a suburb north of Perth.
Like Paul Morley.
AC: That’s right. They went down the drain to the extent of a few hundred thousand dollars.
End Tape 1A
29 APRIL 1994: WA3: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO ARTHUR CARTER
You had a Savings Protection Fund through AFCUL? You had a Savings Protection Fund through the Act through the State.
AC: We started a Savings Protection Fund in WA, but I am not sure if it was because of the Act or because it was something the League felt we should have. It was before the Act.
Now what about central banking?
AC: No we didn’t have central banking to my knowledge until the existing central banking came in.
AFCUL?
AC: Yes.
Did you have anything to do with central banking.
AC: No, it was just about the time that I was getting out of the industry when they started to form this.
What about the ATM company?
AC: I was briefly a Director on that before I retired, before I resigned, the ATM company. This was of course a bitter disappointment to the ATM company when Teachers’ decided to go their own way, start up their own machines, which in retrospect was wrong I suppose. The ATM company was going OK, as I remember when I retired. It still seems to be going pretty strong.
Yes well it is all tied up with the national movement.
AC: Yes all tied up with the national now.
So Teachers’ stayed outside, did they?
AC: Teachers’ stayed outside the ATMs they started to put their own machines in.
With one of the banks or not?
AC: Well they would have to have a clearing facility which would have been the R & I because all their banking was done by the R & I.
What about the other credit unions? That went through the National?
AC: Yes, through the National.
The R & I wasn’t connected to the National?
AC: No. The R & I was the State Bank. Teachers’ did all their business with them. When Teachers’ went down the drain it cost R & I an awful lot of money. So although their machines were not compatible with the industry’s machines, their clearing would have been done I imagine with the R & I.
So the Teachers’ ones wouldn’t take the Redicard?
AC: No. They had their own.
Do you remember what the card was called?
AC: Cashcard I think.
Oh yes that is another outfit which is national.
AC: I think it was Cashcard.
Cashcard is all the building societies and all sorts of odds and ends. It is still going.
AC: It was my impression that Teachers sort of had their own. I remember years and years ago that we had a look at Teachers’ in Queensland. They had their own ATM system.
That was before they were on-line. That was the first one. That was Lloyd Hawkins. That was Queensland Teachers’. That was 1977 he sent a circular around the country. He started them up and they were going in three States, Queensland, ACT and South Australia. But because they were stand-alone machines. They used to have to take punch tape with them. Somebody could defraud that by running round them. I know nobody ever did, but they could have done. It was all on punch tape. There was nothing to stop people from duplicating in different ATMs.
AC: Where is Lloyd Hawkins these days? Is he still around.
Well he is retired now. Yes he turns up. Has got terrible emphysema. He was a terrible smoker, but he is still around. He turns up at AICUM periodically. He was one that was very keen on CUES originally. He had some interesting situations. Do you remember when he got fired by his Board there and then he got the Board rolled?
AC: He stood up to them and got them rolled. I can’t think of the name of the Chairman.
Harold Marsh.
AC: No sorry, I remember Harold Marsh, but there was a very smart young bloke who tried to stand Hawkins up. He got bowled.
Middleton. He was an AFCUL Vice-President at one stage of the proceedings. He went down the drain a little while later. He was a land developer.
AC: Yes Hawkins did the lot of them.
Well Hawkins got himself in trouble at Expo as well. I think they lost $4 million or something on the Credit Union Pavillion at Expo. Everybody agreed that it was a great success except it wasn’t any sort of a commercial success. Anyway he had to stand down as Chairman of the League after that saga. I haven’t got that many recordings in Queensland and what is more I had to sponsor them myself.
AC: Who is the top of it?
Merv Callaghan. I have recorded him of course. Godfrey Stevens of the ABC up there. He was originally a protegee of Stan Arneil. He started many, many credit unions in Queensland. At one stage he was Chairman of the League and the next thing he was Manager of the League. He was Development Officer at the Queensland Teachers’ towards the end, but he is retired now. I have recorded him, a very nice bloke.
AC: Would have been quite a bit of work.
I have got nobody who is doing any recording over there. You realise that your State Library has got the best oral history library in the whole of the country, if not in the southern hemisphere. The Battye Library. The oral history library there. The tapes, they have got tapes going back to the last century. Well they weren’t tapes in those days they were Eddison discs. They have some of the earliest recordings in Australia. The expert there who runs the oral history section is Rhonda Jamieson. There is an Oral History Association in Western Australia. They have got all the expertise in the world, but none of your credit union people over there are recording the reminiscences of the others yet. The Historical Co-operative is trying to get you people to do it, to get going. Rhonda will help you, but she can’t do it. You have got to get somebody in the movement over there to do it.
AC: As I said to you before, we in the Association tried to get credit unions interested. We wrote to them and asked them to put down on paper the history of their credit union. I don’t think we got any answers at all. People just couldn’t be bothered.
Have you done your credit union?
AC: What Fremantle? Well of course Fremantle has gone now.
I might get on to flaming Pat Taylor to see if she will get going. I have already been at her. I have recorded her. Of course she is mainly New South Wales.
AC: Yes but she is doing a good job over here. A guy like Dennis Hagan.
He hasn’t got the time. He has said he won’t do it. He hasn’t got the time.
AC: Well we are all like that now, we haven’t got the time.
Doug Caldow, I have tried to get him going. You were originally in the Historical Co-operative weren’t you. Dermot named you.
AC: Dermot got on to me about it and asked me if I could do something. I wasn’t greatly thrilled but I thought I would see what goes on. Then I said to Dermot on the phone, ‘Look this is all tied up with going around Australia by caravan. I am going around Australia Dermot and I really haven’t got time to do anything about it.’ That is where it lapsed.
Well if you are ever talking to anybody else in the movement, all you have got to do is get a tape recorder and get it started while you are talking. You and whoever it is. Then you copy the tape. Let us have a copy and you keep one over there. It is not that hard. Everyone has got a tape recorder.
AC: I don’t see those guys now. Once you retire and you get out of the industry. I ran into Dennis. I don’t know if you would know Ron Hudson, he was involved.
What Hudson with an ‘H’?
AC: Hudson with an ‘H’. He is in insurance of course. Do you know Ron?
No, just a joke. Incidentally the one who is helping with this and gave me the names and phone numbers is Mike McCarthy, National Credit Union Insurance over there in Western Australia.
AC: Oh yes.
I ran into him at AICUM at Albury. I got to talking on trying to get a recording going on credit unions over in Western Australia. He said, ‘We have got a whole lot of names here.’ He rattled them all off and I took them down. He said, ‘Get in touch with me when I get back.’ I did and he got on to Dennis Hagan. Dennis Hagan found your home phone numbers and that is leading to it now. But the urgency at the present moment, and the possibility of me doing these recordings is because AFIC, the new Australian Financial Institutions Commission, wants a potted history of the movement in all States for their first Annual Report. That is what is getting me going now. I am using their expenses to ring around the place.
AC: When you talk about the history of the movement you are not really interested in individuals.
We are doing a Who’s Who of Australian Credit Unions, individuals and credit unions. At the Historical Co-operative we are collecting the Annual Reports of all the credit unions we can lay our hands on, of all the Leagues. We don’t have hardly anything on Western Australia. No credit union Annual Reports, no League Annual Reports, nothing. All we have got is a few odd Annual Reports from Beresford Calverley, who used to keep everything.
AC: Good on Beresford. Yes he would.
Well he has been dead a while, but his stuff got handed into the League and we got it, the Historical Co-operative got it. Tom Kelly runs the office now. We have got two rooms in the old Railway Institute at the back of Central Station in Sydney. That is where we have got all this stuff stored.
AC: See I don’t know what happened to Fremantle Credit Unions Minute Books.
Well I do, Pat Taylor has got them. I have asked her. She will be a help.
AC: We must have kept all our Annual Reports. They must be on file. Minute Books. As I say, as far as going back in history with the League, Reg Beale did have it. Whether he has still got it I don’t know.
As long as we find out today, tomorrow or the next day. Were you involved with ICUD at all, Institute of Credit Union Directors? Or the old CUES?
AC: We had an Association of Credit Union Directors in those days, but it never got very far. People lost interest in it. An old mate of mine from Fremantle, Jim McGowan, was involved and he often says, ‘I wonder whatever happened to that association we had, the Credit Union Directors Association?’ It wasn’t very much mind you so it folded up after a while. I think they were sick of meetings. You would go to so many meetings just another one becomes more boredom. That was the only Credit Union Directors Association I was involved in, the one we tried to start here.
Have you got any memories of AFCUL meetings and delegates, being a delegate?
AC: Oh yes. AFCUL worked in mysterious ways I felt. The think that I have always remembered was that I was a delegate to AFCUL for a number of years and then other people came on, a chap called Bernie Clark, who was a policeman, came on. We went over to Warburton where they were calling for nominations for delegates and Bernie Clark was popular for a reason and I have got my own ideas why he was popular. Anyway he was nominated. He had only been a member as we used to say for a dog-watch in the industry and he was nominated as a Director for AFCUL. The next year he was going to America on a bloody great jaunt. He comes back and he spends about a year in the industry then he resigns. That is the sort of thing that riles you sometimes about people, you wonder why they are doing these things. You wonder if they are doing it to get a kick out of it, because he never really contributed much to it to my mind.
Did you go to the States and Canada at all?
AC: No. When was the World Council was in Toronto?
It was 1973 or 1974.
AC: I thought it was 1980.
Well that was the second round. Go on.
AC: I went over there then. I think I got $500 or something from Fremantle, a couple of us from Fremantle, towards expenses. But I took my wife at my own expense and we went over to World Council in Toronto and it was a great experience to see these other people.
Did you go to the World Council in Sydney in 1979?
AC: Yes we did.
In the Town Hall and the Hilton.
AC: In the Hilton, that’s right, yes.
Any stories?
AC: I don’t know. Nothing that really sticks out, no. I met some interesting faces over the years in credit unions. Some dedicated people that I have never forgotten. I thought Stan Arneil was a really dedicated man.
Did you hear about that gigantic defalcation in that year, 1979? At the old Sydney County Council Credit Union, which is right opposite the Town Hall where the World Council was going on. Sydney County Council was the electricity one.
AC: Dermot Ryan?
No Dermot Ryan was the City Council. City Council was all right, they didn’t have any defalcations. The County Council was the electricity one. They had a gigantic defalcation of $276,000. The Foundation Treasurer who had become a full-time Treasurer. It turned up in that year. Although it had happened from 1976 or earlier it turned up in the year of the World Council meeting there. Maurie Ryan was one of the convenors of the Conference and he had to worry about all this. It killed him. It was a most peculiar situation. They had this computer in the Sydney County Council you see and they were using the computer. There had been a program specially written for it by a bloke who had promptly died. The only bloke who knew anything about the program and used to have the print-out, which was always written all over and behind, was this guy the Treasurer you see. So he used to turn up at an internal audit meeting and explain everything. It went on for years. It finally came out and he paid up. He went to gaol but the insurance money got the money out of him and he is still laughing. So he must have had a lot more than they found out. Did you have anything to do with GCS, Brian Dean and company, the computer people in Western Australia who’s standard program is now all over Australia. Brian Dean, GCS. Did you have anything to do with him?
AC: I think we used his stuff in Fremantle.
CSA got it, they got the program written in the first place.
AC: CSA used to be TAB in the early days.
The two blokes that wrote the program were at the TAB, Andy Phelan and Nigel Gallop. That was the three of them that clubbed together and did this. Two of them worked at the TAB and one worked at the R & I Bank.
AC: Then they pulled out and started their own company.
That’s right. There wasn’t a proper program for them at the TAB. They were asked by CSA to write a program, which they did. That was a success straight away at CSA. So the pulled out and started their own outfit. The hardware was AWA, well then they started spreading it around. The next thing you know AWA in New South Wales, that is John McIntyre, he had it. Then Helen had it. Then the next thing the New South Wales League wanted the whole company, so they got it. They spread it to AFCUL and it went from there all over the country. But it started in Western Australia. So I am telling you, you are not telling me.
AC: You have got a better memory than me.
It is not memory, it is the people I am talking to, hundreds of them.
AC: I don’t know if I have been much help to you.
Well you have been some help to me. All right I will leave you be. I will send you a copy. What is your address so I can send you a copy of the tape and the paper.
AC: 93 Taymar Street, Palmyra, WA 6157.
Well it will probably be the week after next before you get the tape. I will copy them up. It is up to you to decide whether you are going to give it to the credit union, your copy of the tape, or whether you copy it and give them a copy. The master will go into the Historical Co-operative, right, in Sydney the Australian Credit Union Historical Co-operative and a copy is going to AFIC, which is the Australian Financial Institutions Commission, the new overall national body, financial prudential body, who are getting me to do this research. OK. It was good to talk to you anyway.
AC: Well I hope you got something out of it.
Yes we did get something out of it. You didn’t get Reg Beale did you. It is not clear whether Reg Beale is expecting my call or he doesn’t know me from a bar of soap.
AC: No, I haven’t spoken to him about you. I was going to because I knew you would be interested in these things in his garage, if he has still got them. I also wanted to check with him about when we put a Manager-Secretary, or whatever, on the old League. But he wasn’t in and I couldn’t get him. I didn’t try today to get him, it was yesterday. Try him now.
OK. Goodnight, all the best to you. You have got my phone number in case haven’t you. Goodbye.
End Tape 1B