15 JANUARY 1992: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM DYER, PENNANT HILLS CREDIT UNION, NEW SOUTH WALES. FOUNDATION CHAIRMAN INSURANCE STAFF EMPLOYEES CREDIT SOCIETY (QLD), FOUNDATION DIRECTOR QUEENSLAND CREDIT UNION LEAGUE AND AUSTRALIAN FEDERATION OF CREDIT UNION LEAGUES.
I will ask you Mr Dyer where were you born, and when?
TD: I was born in a little seaside place outside Brisbane called Sandgate way back in 1924.
Did you grow up around there?
TD: I did, all my life until I had to leave the State due to the pressures of a transfer to Sydney.
So you went to school in the Brisbane area?
TD: I went to school at Sandgate State School until 1939 when I completed a couple of years of secondary education at the Brisbane Grammar School. I joined the Royal Insurance Company in 1940. Little did I know then that I would be there until 1981.
What sort of influence did you get from your parents do you think?
TD: Well I think I got a pretty solid introduction to principles. My mother came from grandparents who were the old Wesleyan Methodist and I think that rubbed off on me. I had a pretty good sense of what was right and wrong. Whilst not aspiring to be any great champion of any religious organisations or anything like that, I think that’s been the backbone of most of my actions or most of my thinking over actions that I have taken and that I have had to give some thought to.
What did you father do?
TD: Dad was a Master Painter. He had a business much the same as his father and we were quite comfortable. Not in terms of what people call comfortable today but we didn’t want for anything and had a very solid upbringing.
Did you see anything of the Depression?
TD: Well I think I can remember one Christmas things were pretty tight in terms of presents. But generally there was plenty of food around and whilst we didn’t enjoy the pleasures that most people have today we enjoyed ourselves. Most of the entertainment was done in the home around the pianola and things like that.
When you went to school was there anything you liked or disliked, or were you good at any particular thing?
TD: Well I think looking back on some of my reports I think I was termed average. What that means I don’t know, but that seemed to run through that I was pretty average without being in any way brilliant at anything.
Did you prefer any subjects rather than others?
TD: I liked chemistry and I liked geography and things like that, but I don’t think I would make an analytical scientist or anything like that.
Anything you hated?
TD: Yes, I hated French. I hated the language.
So when you left school what was your first job?
TD: First job was with the Royal Insurance as an office boy licking stamps and things like that. I can remember one of the jobs we had to do was to balance the postage book and that never ever balanced. So you had to run into the boss and he had to put a little entry in, an adjusting entry. Perhaps you might have been a couple of shillings over or a couple of shillings under sort of thing. But that was good training. It was like an apprenticeship, you got to know the industry a little bit before you were actually thrown into it. You got to know the traps and the people in it and so forth and that was good training. It is something that is not around today, people haven’t got the time in lots of cases.
So did you get called up for the services?
TD: I enlisted in the RAAF and I did a couple of courses and ended up what they called a Fitter 2A, which was a fitter to airframe. I didn’t get overseas in the service but spent some time in the Northern Territory. I was in the RAAF for nearly four years.
Were you up in the Northern Territory when the bombing was on?
TD: No, after that, luckily.
Then when the War was over did you go back to the same job?
TD: Yes I went back to the same job.
What as office boy?
TD: Well I went back as a cashier, I was on there for a couple of years. I went on to various departments and ended up being a Manager of what they called a Marine Department, dealing with marine insurance which was very interesting. I got busy with insurance exams and so forth. In those days you had a sort of a progression, you did so many years inside and then if they liked the look of your eyes and that they put you outside, you went outside as a representative. There was a set progression within an office. You tended to do the jobs that were expected of you and you looked forward to the promotion that the efficient handling of that job brought about.
So where did you hear about credit unions?
TD: Credit unions, now that is a good question. I don’t quite know. I think I might have read about them somewhere. At the time I became interested in credit unions, credit unions had received some publicity in the papers about Victorian credit unions I think it was. I think I read some newspaper articles on it and I thought that this was something that was good for a person who can look forward to managing their own finances and perhaps getting cheap credit, not cheap credit but a reasonable rate of interest. I think I have always had a feeling for the average person in terms of trying to get somewhere by their own efforts and I saw the credit union movement as filling a void. It could give credit union members firstly a sense of identity. Most people in those days did feel proud to be in a credit union and did have a firm philosophical base. I think that is probably what appealed to me there, it gave the ordinary battler a chance to get ahead of it.
Did you have a need of credit yourself?
TD: Well I was a young married person, whilst my credit needs weren’t as strong as other people because within the company they had a very strong housing scheme and so forth, I think I may have availed myself of one credit union loan. I did see the need, there were a lot of people out there who wanted this form of credit.
Did you see anything of difficulties amongst your fellow employees with credit? I mean did you see people in the hands of the loan sharks and using cash orders and the finance companies and such like?
TD: Well yes that did come up from time to time and I think that did have an influence. I can remember my mother used to use the old cash order system and things like that. I think I had a deep sense that people were being ripped off by a lot of loan sharks. Not having the urge to tell the people what true interest rates were and sort of covering up the real interest charge by Mickey Mouse terminology of what rate of interest they were paying. Does that make sense?
Indeed, a lot of people still don’t know what they are paying. The other thing I was going to ask you, was there any sort of money lenders operating in the office in which you worked?
TD: No I can’t recall that.
Well in some places they follow the pay-cart around so to speak. I was just wondering if there was any of that?
TD: Not that I can recollect. I think one of the things that the trading banks, at the onset of credit unions, weren’t particularly visible in advertising that they would help the under-privileged person. A lot of credit union loans were made as a result of having loan applications declined by the banks, they didn’t seem to want the little person and so forth. I think to get back to your question, I think I did have a sort of sense that the people were being denied what was theirs in view of the fact that it was their money that the bankers were lending out and not giving it back to the people who were giving it to them.
So did you look around for a credit union to join or did you go straight in and start one?
TD: Well I started one in the Insurance Staff Federation.
So whose idea was that?
TD: Well I suppose modesty might prevent me from telling you. No, I think I at that time saw that as a vehicle to have a credit union. I was actively involved in the Insurance Staff Federation, I was Queensland President, and I thought this was something that members would appreciate.
You didn’t put that down with the organisations you were involved with, the Insurance Staff Federation. However we will deal with that later. So you were already within a sort of leadership position within whatever it was, the union for insurance staffs?
TD: Yes well I was involved in the Insurance Staff Federation. In those days, as opposed to today, if you got five shillings a week increase in a wage that was something, that was something to be cheerful about. Wages weren’t particularly high in those days so if the members got a rise it was usually as the result of a fairly lengthy negotiation with employers. The amount of money wasn’t there, I think I started on thirteen shillings and four pence a week. But I don’t like getting back too much into the past.
Incidentally I should ask you how you got involved with the Insurance Staff Federation?
TD: How I got involved?
Who got you involved?
TD: Who got me involved? I don’t quite know to tell you the truth. It was just one of those things that you sort of found yourself actively in.
Did somebody influence you, or some event happen that triggered you to get in? Did you get put in that position from opening your mouth? Exactly what?
TD: I just felt that the salary levels were far too low in those days.
So did you speak at union meetings then?
TD: Oh yes.
Did somebody suggest that you might stand? Is that how it happened?
TD: Yes. I think one of the persons who had some influence on my continuance in the credit union movement was Stan Arneil, who was very dynamic.
He was nothing to do with the Insurance Staff Federation at all was he?
TD: No, not at all.
Had you seen that television program with Stan Arneil, Meet the Press? No I don’t think it had been made at that time.
TD: No I think my involvement was before then.
So how did you go about setting up the credit union? Where did you get the information?
TD: I think we got it from, I am not quite sure, may have been the New South Wales people I think.
Godfrey Stephens in the ABC Credit Union?
TD: Yes that’s right the ABC Credit Union did give us a lot of help. That’s right, they did. You’ve been reading your tapes. That’s right there was Godfrey Stephens, he was a big help.
There are various lines because Queensland of course had credit unions going before anybody, almost. The Christian Credit Union in Brisbane is really early, I don’t know if you have ever heard of that?
TD: The who?
The Christian Credit Union.
TD: No. That was the one down the Valley wasn’t it, Fortitude Valley? Yes I had heard of that. Also I think there was the AWU, Australian Workers Union, they had a credit union. I think Williams, who was the Secretary up there for many years, he has produced a little booklet which I have left upstairs. How to Run a Credit Union, or something like that.
So you had help from a number of people up there at first?
TD: Oh yes.
Was there anybody else there, apart from you, at the formation meeting can you remember? Did Godfrey Stephens come along, or somebody else come along?
TD: I can’t remember, I am sorry.
Well when you had the meeting did you have it all organised beforehand as to who was going to be Directors and such, or was it just done at the meeting?
TD: Oh no, I think there was a little bit of campaigning done to make sure we had posts filled and that. It is getting on a bit now, it is twenty-odd years, twenty-five years. I think that the formation of the credit union I can’t remember the names of the people who were actively involved, although I have got it in the records upstairs.
Right so you became the first Chairman?
TD: Yes.
Who acted as Secretary, can you remember that and who did the work?
TD: Well I can remember one. There was a Des Wall, he was the Secretary I think. Then there was a James, they are the names that spring to mind.
So who did most of the work of operating the credit union?
TD: Oh the Secretary I suppose. We set up a Supervisory Committee and an Education Committee, the usual run of the mill with credit unions. I don’t think it was a real outstanding success but it introduced the credit union concept to a lot of people.
Did you get pay-roll deductions from any of the insurance companies?
TD: Not that I know of, not in my time.
So what did you do? Did you have a representative in each insurance company, or what?
TD: Well we liked to have a representative in each company to spread the word, yes.
How did it go? Did you go up north of Queensland or anything?
TD: Not specifically with that, no.
But you spread through the companies? Representatives in the individual insurance companies?
TD: Yes the Federation gave us some publicity. Of course most union members, most Federation members knew that there was a credit union there if they felt the need for it.
Right. Did you remain President of the Federation?
TD: Yes. I was there until I was transferred to Sydney.
Did you have any other union affiliations in the Insurance Federation? In the sense that the ACTU or the Queensland Trades and Labour?
TD: No, not particularly.
Nonetheless you must have heard quite a bit about credit unions within the union movement?
TD: Yes, well quite a lot of the unions did have credit unions. So to answer your question, yes.
So once you got started how for instance did you go about collecting the money on various people’s pay-days? Was that the job of the representative or did somebody have to go round and do it?
TD: Well we had an office.
From the start?
TD: Well yes from the Insurance Staff Federation, we had the office there. That was the point where meetings took place and activity was centred.
You had an actual room?
TD: Yes we had an actual room, yes.
Typewriter?
TD: Oh yes a typewriter.
So as the credit union grew did you have any staff?
TD: No it was all voluntary staff. We never reached the stage where we had to put on paid staff or anything like that.
So who did the books?
TD: The Secretary, Secretary-Treasurer.
Who was?
TD: I think it was Des Wall. There was another fellow, James, he worked in the same company as I did. I am sorry that I can’t recall these particular names but they are in the records upstairs.
That is very good. Shortly after your credit union was started, then the Queensland Credit Union League was started. Now how did you hear about that and how did you become a Foundation Director?
TD: I am not sure on that point. It is one of these things, I think it was the wool companies joined with us.
There was a credit union with that sort of name. I believe that your credit union amalgamated with them. The Wool Brokers Credit Union.
TD: That’s right. The Wool Brokers Credit Union. Now you have asked me that question I think there was a Carratas Credit Union, I think that was some sort of Catholic Credit Union. I have been trying to find out all day the fellow who ran that. I think he might have been involved a little bit in that.
That amalgamated later with Euronga Credit Union. That was Carratas and Euronga.
TD: That would be after 1967 wouldn’t it.
I am not quite sure when but well after 1967 yes.
TD: I am sorry I can’t be more specific with the actual people who sort of melted together to get this Queensland Credit Union League.
Can you actually remember the first meetings of the Queensland Credit Union League and the talk about starting it?
TD: Not specifically. I remember there was a general thrust by the foundation members to get the credit union movement going in Queensland. The Teachers’ Credit Union they were very active through Jack Ross. Jack did a tremendous amount of work. Stan Arneil gave us quite a bit of a spurt along.
When did you first meet Stan Arneil?
TD: I think I first met Stan when he came up one time when he might have addressed the League, or he might have addressed our Insurance Staff Credit Union. I am pretty sure now that was it, I think I remember that. At the time Stan Arneil was very well received. I am not sure whether it was with the Insurance Staff Federation or within the League, but I can remember Stan coming up and we had a meeting in the old Centaur House in Queen Street. Everybody went away and Stan sort of charmed them into accepting the credit union principles and so forth. That is one of my recollections of this meeting that we held in Centaur House.
Was that to do with the start of the League, or before that?
TD: Round about that time. I am not sure whether it was before or after.
How long do you think your credit union had been going at that time?
TD: Oh a couple of years I think.
So in that case the League had just started. It didn’t start until the end of 1963 and your credit union may have started in 1962 or 1961.
TD: You’ve got me.
Just sort of extrapolating from the dates that you have available. I mean if you were a Foundation Director of the Queensland Credit Union League, and the records state that you were, well that was in December 1963.
TD: That would be right, yes.
You mentioned that meeting at Centaur House. Why was Centaur House significant, what was there?
TD: The room. It was a bigger room that what we had for our own activities. Well it was just an available room.
Whose room was it? Did it belong to another credit union or a union?
TD: No, I am not sure how we got that room. It was a room were we had held a few meetings before, I think from a union point of view.
Can you remember exactly where the inaugural meeting of the Queensland Credit Union League took place?
TD: I think it was in a place in Elizabeth Street in Brisbane I think.
Whose premises was it?
TD: I think it was union premises. I am sorry about this, but I just can’t quite remember.
Do you remember a meeting in the Police Credit Union area?
TD: Yes, we went down there. That was in Kangaroo Point wasn’t it?
That was in Merv Callaghan’s office. He was Secretary of the Police Association as well.
TD: That’s right. Yes I think we did meet down there at different times. But not for the inaugural meeting, I don’t think so. I think the inaugural meeting was in the street that runs parallel with Queen Street. I think it would have to be Elizabeth Street and I think it was one of the union meeting places.
So when did you first meet Merv Callaghan?
TD: I think it was through the League. He was with the Police Credit Union. But it was through the League.
What about the others? Godfrey Stephens?
TD: Godfrey Stephens was with the ABC. As we mentioned before I can recollect now that we did get quite a lot of information and enthusiasm from Godfrey.
What about any of the others? Harold Marsh?
TD: Harold Marsh was with the Teachers’. Yes he did give us support but I think Jack Ross was the one there that gave us more enthusiasm and showed us how to get stuck into a few things.
Such as what?
TD: Well Jack was a tiger for work. That was demonstrated when we were trying to put together an Act. He influenced the Queensland Government to bring down a Credit Union Act. Jack put a lot of work into that with the solicitor.
What solicitor, can you remember?
TD: No I can’t.
Wasn’t Noel Kendall was it?
TD: No it wasn’t Noel. I can’t think of it now, but it is up there in the papers. But Jack put in a lot of work with him trying to get something to draft out the Act and the Regulations and get it through to the Government. To tell them of the necessity for a Credit Union Act in Queensland, because we were under the old Co-operative Act prior to that.
Tape 1A: 3650 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes.

I suppose we had better broach the subject of the advice to the Queensland Government. Did you involve yourself in any of the lobbying activities towards the Credit Union Act?
TD: Yes we did make a submission to the Queensland Government. I have got a record of that with the papers I have left upstairs. I can’t recall the actual dates of that, but they are up there and we could get those later on.
Well the first Act went through in 1967, didn’t it, although it wasn’t a proper Credit Union Act.
TD: I believe so, yes. I am not quite sure. It went through in 1968, 1967 you say?
The legislation was being drafted in 1967. I might not actually have gone through that year.
TD: I think you are right there.
It might even be 1969. I don’t think it was a proper Credit Union Act even then.
TD: No I am not sure about that angle. I left Queensland in 1967 for Sydney and I lost touch with the Queensland side of things.
Do you remember any deputations to the Government? Who was the Minister at that time, for co-operatives?
TD: You’ve got me there, but I have got that upstairs. I can give that to you. I can’t remember anything now. I don’t even know the name of the Minister. But I do know there was a deputation. We did go up and I was part of that deputation.
Can you remember who the others were, any of them?
TD: Not at the moment no.
Well what other aspect is there. Can you remember the starting of any central banking system of the League up there?
TD: No.
Was there a Supervisory Committee to the League?
TD: I can’t comment on that.
Do you remember your credit union having a Supervisory Committee, or did you have an internal auditor?
TD: We had a Supervisory Committee, that was within the credit union structure. We did have an external auditor, yes.
Some of the public services ones, particularly, didn’t have a Supervisory Committee they appointed one person as an internal auditor. But yours actually had a Supervisory Committee?
TD: Yes we had a Supervisory Committee.
What about the Savings Protection Fund, any talk of starting that at that time?
TD: Yes well that was when CUMIS, I think it was CUMIS, had the loan protection scheme. I am a little bit hazy on this now, but the loan protection scheme was to cover both sides of the transaction wasn’t it? It was to cover the depositors and also to cover the borrowers.
But that was an insurance scheme, whereas what I am talking about is a scheme whereby everybody pays in in case there is a failure of a credit union.
TD: You mean a Guarantee Fund.
Well originally it was called a Savings Stabilisation Fund. Then it was called a Savings Protection Fund and eventually they started Savings Reserves.
TD: Oh you are on that one. No I haven’t got much idea of that. I think that came in after 1967 didn’t it?
I think so yes, but I wondered if there was any talk of it during your period.
TD: Oh there was always a thought there that there ought to be a stabilisation fund to cover the credit unions that might have got themselves into a bit of trouble.
Did yours, or any others that you knew of, get themselves into any trouble financially?
TD: Can’t recall any, but I daresay there were a few.
Do you remember any defalcations by individuals?
TD: No, I can’t say I can.
How did you insure in the first place at your credit union?
TD: I am not sure on the actual details of that. I can’t answer that one in any detail. My mind goes back to the loan protection scheme, which is something different.
The loan protection insurance which came out under CUMIS but before that I think there was some insurance in place with one of the other insurance companies. Did you have any?
TD: It might have been the Co-operative Insurance Company, was it?
Well that was around, yes.
TD: I am not too sure. I can’t be specific on detail there, I am not sure.
In Sydney MLC was also involved.
TD: Yes that is right. I think they might have been. But I can’t recall the actual detail of the carrying company that might have had ours.
But you know the way in Sydney and New South Wales generally, how they had a head policy. The League had a head policy with an insurance company and then it was worked in the form of a fund. At the start they were going to use that as the Savings Protection Fund. Did a like thing happen in Queensland do you know?
TD: Not that I know of.
It did happen later of course. I suppose I should ask you first, did you go to any Schools, credit union Schools or seminars?
TD: I can remember one I went to in Newport.
Not in Queensland first?
TD: No, not in Queensland. Of course we were sort of secondary to New South Wales at that stage in terms of getting education along that style. I did go to the one in Newport and that was conducted by the University of New South Wales, wasn’t it? I believe so.
I don’t think so. The one you went to I think was conducted by CUMIS, CUNA Mutual and the League.
TD: You are right too.
The first Newport School was in 1964 and that was run by the Chapters, the Chapters in New South Wales. The second one was also run by the Chapters, that was also in 1964. Then in 1965 that was run by the Chapters. Then the following year it was CUNA Mutual then.
TD: Well that is the one I went to. I have got the papers on that. I can’t remember much detail about it. I can remember they had budgeting sessions and things like that. It sort of had the effect on me of sort of imprinting the credit union as something worthwhile to get involved in.
You went down to the Newport School, did you go down as a delegate to start AFCUL?
TD: I think it was at the same time, round about the same time.
I don’t know which ones you went to, but I know you went to the one when AFCUL was started because your signature is on everything.
TD: That’s right. I can’t sort of put that into a clear time frame.
Do you think you were only at the one Newport School, or were you at several?
TD: No, only at the one.
Well that is 1966 then. We have got the photograph of it and everything.
TD: Have you? Well that would be the one I think.
Do you remember if any credit unions were actually started as a demonstration at the Newport School that time?
TD: No I can’t recall that aspect.
Do you remember Room 19? Doesn’t ring a bell.
TD: It should do, should it? I am terribly sorry, I should have gone through my papers and sort of tried to recall these moments.
No this is definitely off the record sort of stuff. Do you remember any playing up that went on at that School when you were down there?
TD: No. They were very well organised, a very well behaved bunch of blokes.
You can’t have been in Room 19 then.
TD: Can’t have been in Room 19, no.
Do you remember Dermot Ryan?
TD: Yes I remember Dermot. He was quite a character, Dermot. One of those fellows who took the available opportunity to enjoy himself, if I can put it that way. He was very keen on the movement and he did put in a lot of work Dermot, I understand. But I can’t get this Room 19 business. I will have to check up next thing I see Godrey or somebody.
I presume it comes from the nineteenth hole. It was the hospitality room of Sydney Credit Union you see. It was well known for late night discussions.
TD: I see. Well perhaps I might have been in that. Perhaps might have enjoyed myself a little bit too much that I can’t recall it.
On occasions the police were called and various other things.
TD: Were they?
All sorts of things like that.
TD: No, I can’t recall any of that.
Well can you remember around the time of the foundation of the Australian Federation of Credit Union Leagues, AFCUL? Can you remember who was talking to you about it? How did you become to be involved with it?
TD: Well I think it was more an inspirational thing from Stan Arneil. That is my recollection of it. The delegates from Queensland and New South Wales met and kicked off this AFCUL, which seemed to be the right thing to do at that time. As far as I was concerned I think at the time it was thought the right thing to do. The credit union movement was in its infancy and just starting to gather a bit of growth and that. This was seen as an organisation that would help charter their course as they developed.
Can you remember who called the inaugural meeting and national meeting and so on?
TD: No, I can’t.
You see there is some dispute as to whether it was actually Tom Kelly or whether Stan Arneil himself. We knew that there were discussions between Stan Arneil and a number of others went on the previous year at the Newport School, including Merv Callaghan I believe. But when it came to the push I had heard that it was actually Tom Kelly who called the meeting, although Stan took over from there of course.
TD: No I can’t comment on that. You are going too far back.
More for the records. We need the records. Can you remember this formation meeting when they had this proclamation and a dinner at the old Wentworth Hotel?
TD: Yes I can. I have vivid recollections of that. That was a very happy occasion, if I could put it that way. I think at the time it was seen as the right thing to do. I think that is about all I can remember about it. The League was formed to make sure that the credit union developments and standards were maintained within the credit union movement itself.
Now did you go on any overseas trips for the Queensland Credit Union League?
TD: Yes. I was the first Director of CUNA from the Queensland League.
How did that come about?
TD: How did that come about?
Did somebody suggest it or did you do it on your own bat?
TD: I think Merv Callaghan might have been destined to go there and I think he got sick or something, wasn’t it? Something like that. Anyhow I know that I found myself with three days to get ready, get a passport and get all those sorts of things. I think they suddenly realised that as the Queensland Credit Union League we were members of this world-wide organisation called CUNA. There was a Directors’ meeting coming up and we were entitled to send a Director over there.
One Director? You went on your own did you?
TD: Yes I went on my own.
Which year was that?
TD: That was 1966.
In 1967 Merv and Jack Ross went didn’t they?
TD: That’s right. I was the first.
Right you were the first one to go. You went by plane. Can you remember did CUNA International pay for your fare.
TD: Yes, they paid the fare. They paid all expenses. As a matter of fact it is rather interesting looking back on the expense sheets. Of course the values then were well down on what they are today. They were excellent, absolutely fantastic, CUNA. I found myself from a little colonial outpost called Queensland suddenly you know within this great big CUNA International Directors and that. It was a really well run meeting on a grand scale.
Who were the other Australian delegates, or Directors as they were?
TD: Oh there was Calverley, Berry Calverley, Lee Nash, I think those two were over there from New South Wales.
Did you know them beforehand, or not?
TD: No, I hadn’t met them before.
Was there anybody from Tasmania? Anybody from New Zealand? Can you remember?
TD: Can’t remember, but I don’t think so.
Nobody from Victoria or anywhere else?
TD: No, I don’t think so.
Right. When you went there where did you go first? Did you go via Fiji, or did you go direct to the States?
TD: Went direct. Actually I missed a day of it because it was a sort of a belated opportunity. We had grasped this opportunity to send somebody over and I flew straight to Chicago, I think it was. Then on to Madison.
The meeting was at Madison?
TD: Yes at Madison. Went through CUNA Mutual and met a lot of people. Then went back and did a tour of Idaho with the credit union there. Went up to Ontario and California, visited the Californian League. They were terrific in their hospitality and showing the rookie everything that went on within their credit union. I was able to get quite a lot of information from those credit unions, particularly the Ontario credit union. Met a lot of nice blokes, if I can put it that way. Really devoted credit union people.
Did you specialise in any particular thing in your report? Or did you have a number of things that you wanted brought in over here?
TD: Well there were a number of things that I did suggest to the Credit Union League. I have just had a look at those, as a matter of fact, but don’t ask me what they were. I have got them all up there, a copy of my report and so forth. There were a number of things that I felt were important, particularly from the Credit Union Act point of view. To try and get a Credit Union Act to put the industry on a sound footing. There were a number of things and it has given me an opportunity to have a look at that report.
So what impressions, looking back, did you get, apart from the hospitality? Of the movement in the United States? Did you see anything of the negative side as well as the positive?
TD: Well it is always easy to look back with hindsight isn’t it, to say perhaps I might have thought that then. What did impress me was the professionalism within credit unions within the United States at that time. The fact that they were able to have this professional organisation and still conscript or still influence the volunteer movement within each credit union. No matter what size you still had your professionals and you had your volunteer movement and they seemed to work side by side in harmony. That was probably the impression that I got back, that perhaps if the volunteer movement can still retain their zeal for the philosophical aspect of credit unions and couple that with the professionalism that paid employees must ultimately have, or bring to the credit union, well this would be all to the benefit of the credit union movement. Incidentally I went through the MGM Credit Union over there. It was quite interesting to think that the motion picture industry had their own very well-organised MGM Credit Union. One of the stars of the day there, Richard Chamberlain, do you remember Richard Chamberlain, he gave a photo of himself addressed to my daughter Julie, you know, ‘Kind Regards from Richard’. That is just by the way. But to answer your question. I think that events over recent years have shown that perhaps there isn’t quite the degree of cohesiveness that is within the volunteers in the movement and the professionals. I think the credit union movement has sort of drifted to perhaps something akin to a friendly bank. I can’t back this up with any facts or figures or personalities or anything like that. But I do think the original aspirations of volunteers who saw the credit union movement as a means to bring credit for worthwhile purposes to the ordinary, average citizen, I think whilst they have been dampened a little bit I think there is still enough with the movement there to keep it going along that basis.
What about on your way back from the United States, did you come via anywhere or did you come direct, so to speak?
TD: No, I came straight home.
How did you get the time off, or did you have to take your holidays?
TD: I used up a bit of leave and so forth. I was able to do that. But they were very good, they gave me leave that was due to me, but gave it to me a little bit in advance so I could make use of the trip.
Can you remember any stories you can tell about the actual meetings at CUNA International? The big meetings? Did you speak?
TD: No I can’t remember getting up and saying anything profound, or anything like that. I think I was there like the overawed observer for a few days and that. I did get a chance to speak in Idaho, going round the different credit unions because they introduced me as from Queensland, Australia. I think people thought he is a bloke and he is not hopping around like a kangaroo, or something like that. I do know they did receive me as somebody who was from a country that had just grabbed hold of the idea of credit unions and I was quite enthusiastic, I think, in telling them about the movement.
So when you got back you had to report, you wrote up a report and you have let us have a copy today, so what else did you have to do? Did you have to go and speak to the other credit unions?
TD: Well I had to report to the League, a written report and that, but no not particularly. I think it was more or less confined to the League.
Were you still a Director of the League when you went over there in 1966?
TD: Was I still a Director of the League?
The Queensland Credit Union League?
TD: Yes, I think so.
We have got a gap in the records there between 1963 and 1967, you see.
TD: That’s right. I will have to check that out upstairs. 1963 and 1967.
Well the first we have got is 1968, and you are not down there.
TD: Well in 1968 I was in Sydney.
But you think that you were a Director of the Queensland Credit Union League from 1963, its inception which we know you were, until 1967 when you came down here?
TD: That’s right yes, I believe so.
That’s good to know. That can be checked by their Minutes, but I am not up there to check their Minutes and I don’t have a copy of them.
TD: No, I am pretty sure.
As a matter of fact I have got some cards, they are on cards up to there, I don’t know whether I do. Can you remember any problems in America between CUNA Mutual Insurance and CUNA?
TD: Well there was a sense of keen competition between the two.
Exactly what do you mean?
TD: I was frightened you would ask that. I don’t quite know. I think being in insurance, we had two organisations which were offering the same thing.
But surely CUNA Mutual was owned by CUNA, predominantly owned by CUNA, and they provided insurance for all CUNA affiliates.
TD: That’s right. But to answer your question, which implied was there any conflict between CUNA Mutual and CUNA.
Well I know there was the following year, but did you see anything of it that year?
TD: No I didn’t because I had a long discussion with Owen Shripe and I didn’t sort of gather anything. But I do know that CUNA Mutual used to put out what they termed a bond or something or other. All it was was an all embracing insurance cover, covering various insurable risks. Then CUMIS came out. As a matter of fact I applied for some shares in CUMIS. I don’t know where the share script is now, I don’t think they would be worth much now, anyhow I am not worried about that. That was more of just an academic interest in it, you know, to have a few shares in CUMIS. But CUMIS is Credit Union Mutual Insurance Society, isn’t it, and then CUNA Mutual. I do know there was a feeling of some conflict between the two, but what it was and what the grass roots level was I don’t know.
So when you left Queensland your company sent you down to New South Wales did they?
TD: Yes, I came down as Assistant Manager for New South Wales for the Royal.
Did you join a credit union down here?
TD: I joined one, the Pennant Hills Co-operative Credit Union.
Were you involved in the running of that at all?
TD: Well I was President there for some years.
How many, do you know?
TD: I am not quite sure on that, but it would only be for a couple of years, three years or something like that.
Were you involved in the New South Wales Credit Union League?
TD: Yes, I was involved with them a little bit. My involvement with the New South Wales Credit Union League is pretty hazy there. I think I was mainly concerned with the Pennant Hills credit union, it was a little community credit union. I think it was absorbed by somebody else wasn’t it? Kevin Gleeson was tied up with it wasn’t he. We had some quite devoted people there.
End Tape 1B: 3720 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes.