26 SEPTEMBER 1991: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO ALAN McCRORY
Your credit union is Warwick Credit Union?
AMcC: Yes.
Where were you born and when?
AMcC: Born in Victoria in 1941.
Did you grow up there?
AMcC: Until I was eleven. Then Tasmania for four years. We came up here in about 1956 and I have been here ever since.
Where did you go to school?
AMcC: Hawksburn in Victoria. Launceston State High School and then Banyo High School in Queensland, Brisbane.
What sort of influence did you get from your parents? I am trying to build up a picture of your background.
AMcC: My parents probably were very involved in how I turned out, how I am today. They taught me to be very caring about people, not to worry about race, creed or politics or whatever, take people as they are. Try and work as hard as I can to try and get on.
So what did you do after leaving school? Did you leave school early?
AMcC: I went to what is called now Grade 12, Senior in 1959. I worked for six or eight months at a clothing place called Pikes in Queen Street. It was the only job I could get because it was the start of a sort of recession in those days. I went to the Cotton Marketing Board for about five years. Went to Amico Refinery for five years. While I was at Amico we formed a credit union about 1968.
That is where you first heard about credit unions?
AMcC: Yes.
Who from?
AMcC: There was an Australian, Reg Raynor, he was the AWU rep for the refinery, and a couple of times he had a meeting and tried to get this going. No-one was really interested, we didn’t get enough people at the meetings. Then an Englishman, he became the AWU rep, Keith Baines he brought an Irish gentleman called Godfrey Stephens along and that seemed to change the world for a lot of people, particularly myself. We had our first meeting at Keith’s place, then a couple of weeks later we had a meeting at work and there was enough people there and we formed our Amico Credit Union sometime in 1968.
Godfrey Stephens was there at the formation meeting was he?
AMcC: He sure was, as he was at a lot of them in those days, twenty or thirty or something I can remember off-hand that formed. I was lucky, or unlucky enough, to be Secretary-Treasurer for the first year or so. My boss was the Chairman, when he transferred to Sydney I took over as Chairman. Then because of my interest in all the Schools I used to attend, Godfrey offered me a job, I think it was November or December 1970. I started in 1971 as a Field Officer for the League and I was there for roughly four years.
At the League when you first came, who was in charge then? Who was the Manager and who was the Chairman?
AMcC: The Chairman was Bill Robson and the Manager was Godfrey Stephens. My work partner, who taught me most of the stuff was Bernie Farrelly, he was another Field Officer there were two of us. There was a girl here who did everything, Barbara Harmar, she is probably one of the best unqualified bookkeepers I have ever come across. She probably taught me all I knew about bookkeeping.
So when you actually came to the League here we have mentioned who was Chairman. Do you remember any other Board members, did you have much to do with Board members? I suppose you were only quite young then.
AMcC: Yes. Not a lot with the Board of Directors I guess. I knew some of them. Jack Harvey, Harold Marsh, Jack Ross and some of the others, who I can’t remember at the moment. The staff didn’t have a lot to do with the Board in those days, we seemed to keep apart and Godfrey was the sort of intermediary I guess between the Board and the staff. We were fairly busy in those days, forming credit unions and teaching them what to do and what not to do and whatever. Whether they took any notice is another thing.
So can you remember some of the credit unions you were involved with in the formation?
AMcC: I really only formed one. I was involved with Bernie and Godfrey in sort of forming others, but the only one I actually formed on my own was the Taxi Credit Union, which was fairly funny actually, though it wasn’t funny at the time. After we got the meeting over we had forms to sign, there was a stroppy member there, taxi driver. He and another fellow put on a turn and the next minute there was a big brawl on. I hadn’t gathered all my signatures then and within five minutes there was no-one there and I had a piece of paper with about two signatures on it. It took me about two weeks to get all those people back together to sign the damn thing. So it was fairly horrific for me being the first one I had formed. It is funny now of course, but it wasn’t then it was very dramatic. Of course when I went back Bernie and Godfrey thought it was the funniest thing they had heard of.
Who were the people who got you down there in the first instance? Who was their Steering Committee? Had they initiated it?
AMcC: Yes. I couldn’t remember it. Neil Dwyer was one, he was also Secretary of the Taxi Council. He was one of the initiators and got us down there, but I can’t remember off-hand who the other people were.
It is still going, anyway.
AMcC: Yes very well apparently. So they got over their problems as well.
Can you remember any other meetings?
AMcC: Not off-hand, no. That was the only one I was really tied up with, the other ones I was in the background and either Godfrey or Bernie were actually doing the formations.
What was your main job at the League?
AMcC: Going to Board meetings and checking out sets of books. Legislation telling, this sort of thing. Liaising with the Registrar. Make sure there were no credit unions going good, bad or indifferent in those days.
Incidentally with the Registrar, have you followed through with the operations of the Registrar’s Department through the legislation?
AMcC: In what way?
Well there were various Acts. You came after the 1967 Act I suppose.
AMcC: Yes I didn’t start until about 1968, so it was already in. The only one we had a fair bit to do with was the Act that changed in 1986. We had some small input in that, but it was mainly Directors who did that over the years, and some of the credit union Managers around the place. In about 1974, 1975 I left the League and went to work for a small credit union which finished up as Sunstate Credit Union. As a Manager I didn’t get involved in those sorts of things until 1978 when I joined the Warwick Credit Union.
Now as far as liaising with the Registrar, which Registry was it?
AMcC: I think it was the Co-operative and Other Societies Act. We didn’t really deal with the Registrar directly, naturally enough. There were a couple of Inspectors there in those days, but I can’t remember their names.
So what credit unions did you actually go to the aid of?
AMcC: Well we sort of had it split up between the two of us, Bernie and I. In round figures there were seventy-odd credit unions, so we sort of had thirty-odd each. We went to the Board meetings, or if they had a problem, or if they wanted some assistance, that sort of thing. We were also involved in a lot of lecturing at seminars, going out talking to working groups and things like that.
So where were these seminars, and can you remember any of them?
AMcC: One of the main ones for three or four years was the one at Toowoomba, which is a week-long seminar put on by the Darling Downs, or Toowoomba, Chapter. I just can’t quite remember what it was called. It was a week-long seminar at the Range Motel. It was fairly hard because most people who used to go along, even myself, would take your holidays if the company would give it to you, or you would take time off and pay for it yourself. Nowadays of course when they go to seminars the company pays for everything and they go to the Ramada or whatever, not these cheap places. There was another Chapter called Southside Chapter and they started up because the bigger credit unions were starting to go to dearer places and they thought there was a place for cheaper-type seminars. A few seminars were held at the Tallebudgera Camp, which was fairly primitive. It was mainly for children, you would have beds about four foot, four foot six long and us six foot fellows would be hanging over the end. There would be sand in the bed. But it was fairly good and a lot of people went through those and learnt a lot from them I guess.
Did you come across Stan Arneil?
AMcC: A couple of times in the early stages. Didn’t have a lot to do with him because again he was mainly to do with the Boards and the Managers whereas I was just a lowly Field Officer. I remember him coming up at one stage when he was working for CUNA-CUMIS and telling us a few things on insurance. After he left CUNA-CUMIS the new chap, Granata, a lot of the things he was telling credit unions were incorrect and we had to go back and tell the credit unions we had been telling them the wrong thing, which was a bit disappointing.
You mean that there was some communication breakdown between Stan Arneil and CUNA-CUMIS?
AMcC: I don’t know whether he was telling us half-truths, or he didn’t know, but one thing I can remember we were told if you retired the person was covered for insurance. We found out since that it wasn’t so. If a male retired he just wasn’t covered, because he didn’t have a job, whereas a woman could retire and become a housewife and she is covered, which she still is. There were a couple of small things like that which we were inadvertently unaware of. We were promoting CUNA-CUMIS in those days. They had come in the late 1960s to look after credit unions whereas nobody else would. So from a League point of view we were pushing CUNA-CUMIS to make sure credit unions were covered. It was a bit disappointing actually from Stan’s point of view.
Were you around during the dispute over the New South Wales border as to the blanket coverage by CUNA-CUMIS of credit union insurance through the leagues?
AMcC: Yes was around, but naturally enough didn’t have a lot to do with it because we were in Queensland. I knew that CUNA-CUMIS and the New South Wales League had problems and the League ended up doing the insurance themselves. In fact our credit union is through the New South Wales League, it has been since about 1974, 1975. We had a problem with CUNA-CUMIS, though in the end they looked after us, a month or two later doubled our fees so our Board told them to go jump and we went through the New South Wales League and they looked after us. We have been with them ever since.
Have you been with them in anything else? Computerisation?
AMcC: No. Our credit union was one of the seven or eight that disaffiliated in 1978. Because we couldn’t get any gimmicks, or literature, or pamphlets and that sort of thing we have used the New South Wales League for that sort of thing over the years, a few manuals and that sort of stuff.
Were you involved with Len Hedger?
AMcC: Yes. I have known Len probably since about 1968, when we formed the Amico Credit Union. Then he was Chairman of the League after David Dinning.
Was that during your time at the League?
AMcC: Probably close towards the end. Probably around about 1974. I left sometime during 1974, or very early 1975. David Dinning was Chairman for most of it but towards the end of it Len was there, probably about six months.
What was David Dinning like to work for? How did you get on?
AMcC: Well the other chap, Bernie, and I got on with him very well. He seemed to be a very good communicator and he was one that didn’t tend to jump up and down, he tended to try and talk things out rather than saying, “You’re sacked,” he was very good actually. Perhaps didn’t turn out that way in the long-run in a couple of other places down south, but he seemed to run ABC Credit Union reasonably well.
Were you involved with the Savings Protection Fund?
AMcC: No. Warwick Credit Union was in it, naturally enough, until we pulled out of it. When we went to the Federation we formed our own. I wasn’t directly involved.
What about the computerisation?
AMcC: No. We haven’t been involved with the League at all in computerisation. When we felt it was the right time to go seven or eight years ago, a credit union which was Mount Isa Mines Employees’ Credit Union, which is now Queensland Country Credit Union, they were like a big brother to our credit union over the years and their Chairman and our Chairman, that was Cliff Jury and my Chairman Ray Lyons, got on very well. My Chairman happened to mention one day that we were looking at going on computer, or buying our own, or whatever and Cliff Jury, the Chairman of Mount Isa in those days, said, “Well we have just gone on to a new one, come and have a look at our old one and make an offer. We will look after you.” So we went on to Mount Isa’s old computer and we were on that for three, four or five years.
What sort was it?
AMcC: It was Domino programme and it was a digital computer, 11:34 I think it was. About two years ago, when it became too small and we needed to update, to cut a long story short we decided to go on to Queensland Country’s computer. Actually they are operating as a bureau to us now.
That is amazing. Did you have much to do with Cliff Jury?
AMcC: Not since he retired. Cliff retired probably a couple of years ago, three years ago.
Where is he?
AMcC: He is up on the north coast around Maroochydore, Caloundra way. Enjoying his retirement and his bowls. In fact he might even be Treasurer of the Bowls Club up there.
Have you got an address for him? Is there any possible way we can contact him for the Australian Credit Union Historical Co-operative?
AMcC: Definitely. I can soon find out for you, no trouble at all.
He was President of AFCUL for one year.
AMcC: Yes. My Chairman was on AFCUL for a year or two, too. Ray Lyons.
He was on 1975, 1976, 1977 he was still on and that is it. He didn’t come back on. That is the period he was a delegate or an alternate. Alternate in 1974, delegate in 1975 and delegate in 1976 and 1977.
AMcC: He was on the Queensland Credit Union League Board then as well, for a few years.
What was he like?
AMcC: We got on very well, naturally enough. I have known Ray since Warwick started. In fact we have just had our twenty-first and we had Godfrey Stephens and Bernie Farrelly who formed the credit union back for our twenty-first meeting. Once it was formed it became my credit union, so I have known Ray practically since it was formed and we have always got on well, particularly since I have been working with him. We tend to be a good foil for each other, he being a country person, ex-farmer, is very cool calm and collected and if I want to do something and I get carried away he calms me down and we think about it and end up doing the right thing, or the wrong thing, it depends on what happens I guess. He tends to calm me down but I can bounce ideas off his brain and we tend to work out things together, actually. We get on very well together, a tremendous person actually.
Now on the positive side while you were working at the League, or your knowledge of the League, what do you think were the goods things that happened during that time? Before I ask you about the splits and divisions and things like that, that are not in the Board Minutes.
AMcC: I guess working for the League was probably one of the greatest times of my life. Meeting so many fantastic people. I don’t often get carried away and say those sorts of things because nowadays it is too easy to say how great everybody was. A lot of people put a lot of time into it and they really believed in what we were trying to do. The philosophy in those days was tremendously deep and imbued in people to try and do the right thing by people and try and help them out. That sort of changed over the years. Not so much the fault of the people who were involved, I guess it was society changed and legislation has changed so we have had to be more circumspect in lending and things like that. We are being forced to be so much tougher than we were years ago. The camaraderie between a lot of us, and there was lots of people. I mean if you have got seventy-odd credit unions and average of nine on a Board, that is a lot of people, besides the staff.
There were lots of innovations that happened. I can remember Teachers’ Credit Union they were the first ones to get a computer in Australia and in those days it took up a whole room and they had all these fancy security systems and mice would run across the floor and the police would be running around, or firemen, or whatever. Then of course they were the first to have ATMs and plastic cards.
Were you in on the start of that?
AMcC: I was with Sunstate, not so much with the League in those days, and I didn’t have a lot to do with them because I was working for one credit union. I probably for a period of two or three years I didn’t have much to do with the League itself, or the people, because I wasn’t in management in those days. I guess the philosophy and the hard work and the people just wanting to do the right thing by people was probably the most positive thing. Probably it was one of the reasons why I got involved, and a lot of other people did to, because it was a way of helping people. I wasn’t smart enough, or whatever, to go to university and become a doctor or whatever, but what we have done over the years is help people. When something happens to me I guess I can say at least I have done something with my life and there is a lot of people who think like that. It happens probably less frequently now because of legislation and people.
I rang up Maleny Credit Union, have you followed what they have been trying to do up there?
AMcC: Yes. A bit of misgivings on a couple of things they are trying to do. We were on the formation. There is a friend of mine who was Manager at Toowoomba Credit Union, Trevor Crisp, he and I went to their formation meeting. I have been to a couple of Annual Meetings and stuff. He was also on the Board of the League as well. It was a sort of alternate lifestyle, people who are very very co-operative minded and they reminded me of what we were like in the late 1960s. I hope they never lose it, but I think legislation is going to beat them, where they are going to have to be able to get reserves and make bigger profits and do things like that, which is really against their thinking.
Can you explain what they do and how they do it? I understand that they are changing now and they are being helped to some extent by you people. They realise they have got to change because they are not going to be able to stay the same as they are.
AMcC: Over the years we have had a bit to do with them, I have been up there a few times. When they first started off I guess they had the same attitude towards people, everybody is terrific and there weren’t going to be any bad ones. But of course they got caught out, as we all did over the years. But they were smart enough, I think, although perhaps not in the beginning, to change their attitudes and ring up and say they had a problem and what could they do about it. They realised they had to make a bigger profit margin and not lend so readily. Of course some of their management things have been changed where management is taking over from the Board. The Board have tended to be doing everything and doing too much, so the management was being able to make decisions on loans and a few things like that. That has changed in the last twelve months or so.
I understand they have got three Managers now?
AMcC: They have three equal Managers and that is one of my misgivings, I can’t handle that. I don’t know if I could live with two people on the same level and that is not being vain, or rude, or whatever. It seems to work up there, and if it works, fine. Whatever goes, goes.
This idea of bartering skills, how does this relate to the credit union, or doesn’t it?
AMcC: It doesn’t really. The only thing I could say there is that the Board Director Jill Jordan who was running around the countryside starting off this bartering system called LETS, seems to be coming up all round the place. I think it is even in Stanthorpe which is just below us, half an hour south of us. The only thing there is that it was credit union people that were involved in the starting of it. It really hasn’t got anything to do with running of the credit union itself.
You mentioned Trevor Crisp there. What did you do with him, and where did you go and exactly what were you involved with?
AMcC: Well Trevor and I became close friends in the early years when I started working for the League. I met him at one of the Toowoomba Chapter meeting when they started these week Schools up there. My first week School was probably in 1969 in Toowoomba and I got to know Trevor and his wife and kids. When I was up in Toowoomba there were about four or five credit unions in the area in those days.
What is there now?
AMcC: There is no locally-based credit union. All the credit unions up there now are based in Brisbane.
So who services them now? The Nurses, who services them for instance?
AMcC: Well Nurses went into Credit Union Australia. Toowoomba Credit Union went to Sunstate. Southern Cross Credit Union went into Credit Union Australia. Now Toowoomba was an amalgamation of some three credit unions. There was Toowoomba Tartan, United Credit Union and another one, I am not too sure what it was, but they amalgamated eventually and became Toowoomba Credit Union. Seven or eight years ago they amalgamated with Sunstate, or Sunstate took them over I guess. Then Southern Cross went some two years ago and Nurses went probably about five years ago. So there are no actual country credit union if you like, or Toowoomba-based credit union.
I interrupted you there about Trevor.
AMcC: Yes well I got to know Trevor pretty well when I was with the League. Of course I was servicing three, four or five credit unions in Toowoomba and instead of spending money on accommodation I used to stay at Trevor’s place. So I would be there four or five times every couple of months anyhow. On the same vein I would visit Warwick Credit Union and Stanthorpe Credit Union, they were in my area and Beaudesert Credit Union, which is now South-East Credit Union. Since Beaudesert became South-East Credit Union it has now taken over Stanthorpe Credit Union, so they are now running there as well. The first Manager, Mrs Pat McGovern, has just been replaced by Barry Cheeseman. I think Pat has been retired for two or three weeks now. Trevor and I used to go to seminars together and drive round the place. There was Millmerran and Pittsworth Credit Union, they were taken over by Toowoomba Credit Union. We went to a fair few things together on different things. We were involved in Maleny. I probably spent a bit more time with Maleny that Trevor did, because he was tied up in Toowoomba doing a few other things with these credit union companies.
What was the problem with Maleny that you spent time there?
AMcC: Trying to convince them that they will have bad debts and provide for them. They never really did it I guess. It is only the last couple of years that they have recognised it and have started putting provisions aside for it. I still think the Board has too much to do in the office and I think it looks bad. I mean, if it was like one of the earlier credit unions and just being run by the Board of Directors fine, but when you have got people just walking in and out who are Directors there is nothing worse, I don’t think, from member’s point of view who are wondering who the heck it is. People can wonder around so it looks as if people can do anything so there is not much confidentiality. At the moment they are looking at a superannuation plan. I just hope they know what they are doing, because if they do it properly of course the credit union has got to be around the next fifty years so they can have the money there to start giving it back to their people. The big people like AMP and what have you, they have got problems. So a small credit union like Maleny might have problems.
I suppose they might. The only other credit union like that I know is the Christian Credit Union. I was talking to Munro Cutmore the other day and he says that since their inception forty-five years ago, they have only had $150 of bad debts in the whole of that time.
AMcC: I wish we could all say the same thing. I know that the bad debts of our credit union is way better than anywhere else, but $150 is great. I can remember going to a couple of credit unions, two State Public Service credit unions that I went to and they both reacted the same way. I happened to be at their credit union when their first bad debt came through and these fellows nearly had pink knickies, they were crying almost because they had just had their first bad debt. They are fairly tough in their lending. Some of them haven’t really changed and I guess this is where we are a bit different being in the community, you can’t be too tough because they will just go elsewhere and you won’t be able to lend your money. Queensland Railways, for instance, you had to belong to the Railway Institute and the Professional Officers in the early days you had to be there so many years before you could borrow and it was only so much of your pay. It could be donkey’s years before you could get a reasonable-sized loan. Similarly with Queensland Railways. I think some of the others were the same way, where they had fairly strong restrictions on their lending, you had to be there so long and be in the Union and what have you. When you are a community credit union you can’t do that because they will just go elsewhere and get it from the finance companies or banks, or whatever.
I suppose some of it is your attitude as well. I mean the Christian Credit Union they are a social thing as well.
End Tape 1A: 4874 Words: 1 hour 25 minutes
I mentioned, off-tape, Beresford Calverley, he used to visit all over the place. Did you come across him much?
AMcC: Came across him a lot probably in that four or five years I worked with the League in particular. I was one of the one’s I guess he took under his wing, and I was very lucky, including people like Steve Birt and others around the place that I didn’t know of. Every time he came up here I got to see him. He would send me a lot of material. There would be seminars that I couldn’t afford to go to, or the League in those days couldn’t afford to send me, he would pay my way down on the plane to the seminar. When I got to Sydney sometimes I would take an extra couple of days off and we went to Dubbo and a few places like that, went to their Annual Meetings and different Chapter meetings. He was a tremendous fellow. He was very philosophic, one of the fellows that it makes me glad that I got to know through the credit union movement. Unfortunately, I guess, he perhaps overstayed his welcome, not from my point of view but in the end some of the younger ones didn’t like him because he was a bit older. I hope I know when it is time to go, when you are at the top, get off and get out. Unfortunately I think that was the same thing that happened to poor old Jack Ross, he probably stayed on about two years too long. Beresford was a tremendous fellow, I couldn’t say enough highly about him.
Any stories you can tell about him?
AMcC: I can actually. There is a couple. One in particular, I had been in Warwick probably about four or five years and Berry just turned up out of the blue. I thought it was terrific. He knew I was interested in cars, interested in vintage and veteran cars and sports cars and what have you, he said, “Come and have a look at my car.” He had just bought an XJS Jag, which was tremendous. He had this lovely looking young girl driving him around and I just didn’t believe it, she was lovely. Half his luck if he was that way inclined, half his luck if he wasn’t because she was terrific, driving him around the State. I suppose that is a funny story because I didn’t know how to take it. That is probably about the worst or the best that I knew about him. Every one knows he was Mayor of Strathfield.
He lived there with his mother.
AMcC: He was a wonderful guy.
He put all his energies into credit unions.
AMcC: He surely did. Probably reminiscent of the American that had plenty of money and poured money and time into the credit union movement.
Well we come to the subject that somebody has got to tell me about, these various splits and divisions. I would like you, if possible, to tell me who was on one side and who was on the other and if you can manage it, what the issues were as you saw them, and finally a bit of anecdote.
AMcC: Yes. I worked for Sunstate at the time it happened. That is the split in the movement and the Board was sacked and all that sort of thing.
When was that, before the Teachers’ one?
AMcC: This was before the Teachers’ one. This would be 1977 probably. I was working at Sunstate, as I say, I went up to Townsville to open up a branch office up there for Sunstate and I ended up working there for twelve months. I went from there to Warwick Credit Union. While they were doing the office up and setting it up there was a letter come out from Credit Union Australia to all Telecom employees in particular saying that Sunstate, which was Postal Technicians Credit Unions in those days, had financial problems. They had certain facts and figures which were spot on. Knowing what I know, they weren’t problems. Anyhow it turns out that the then Manager of the League gave this information out of the League stats to a non-affiliate, which was Australian Post, which is now Credit Union Australia. It took some time, that I know of, to work out where the information came from and it turns out that the Manager of the League gave it to Credit Union Australia, Australia Post in those days, this information so they could use it. From my understanding the Board sacked him. But then Harold Marsh, who for whatever reason was a big backer of the then Manager Garth Furness, got a Special Meeting going and got involved with a lot of credit unions, particularly the smaller credit unions because Teachers’ helped a lot of credit unions in those days. They then sacked the Board and put Furness back on. In my mind I think the League Board, what they did in the first place was right because being in the middle of it I knew what happened. But talking to a lot of credit unions, I have a lot of friends in the credit union movement, they just believed what Teachers’ and Harold Marsh told them, particularly Harold Marsh rather than Teachers’ I suppose. They just believed that he was right. A very, very close friend of mine, Merv Richardson who was Manager of Southern Cross Credit Union in Toowoomba, when I rang him up about it he just so emphatically believed in what Harold told him, no matter what I told him, we ended up having a blue and didn’t talk for two or three years. It was just so hard to believe that they couldn’t sack somebody and if you can get people on-side, doesn’t matter whether it is credit unions, to vote and get rid of the Board and put a person back on.
What was Len Hedgers’ reaction?
AMcC: Oh well he wasn’t terribly impressed, naturally enough, because he was Chairman of the League. What happened of course some seven or eight credit unions, of which Len’s credit union was one, they formed the Federation of Queensland Credit Unions in opposition if you like. The Federation was just a secretariat to keep people together and to have a Savings Guarantee Fund, or Savings Protection Fund, whatever you want to call it. Today I would say he would still be fairly bitter. Even my Chairman, he pulled our credit union out as well, and Cliff Jury was another one, I would say they are I guess bitter about it because they believe they did the right thing. I believe that if nothing else, the credit unions are run by the Board of Directors and if they sack the Manager, even if it is me, I have got recourse. I don’t believe I should just be able to go to members and say, “They have done the wrong thing by me, put me back on.”
Now that brings us to the same sort of situation, only in another credit union, not in the League, within Teachers’. Do you have any knowledge of that?
AMcC: I don’t know a lot about it. We were in the Federation and we kept out of a lot of the politics that were going on. I know very little about what happened.
I am after personal knowledge, so that lets you out of that one. What about at the League level? Lloyd Hawkins, who was Manager at Teachers, he became Chairman of the League. Did you have anything to do with him at that level?
AMcC: No. I know Lloyd naturally enough, I probably joined a year or two before him. I was right out of it in those days. It was the Federation and I just kept out of it. In fact probably we were out of the League for ten or eleven years and what we have done over the years we have done on our own. We had to stand on our own two feet, which I think has probably made us stronger than what we would have been if we had been in the League. You can rely on the League to do this and that and you sort of have to do your own thing and make up your own mind. I think we are better because of that actually.
Did you have anything to do with Harold Marsh?
AMcC: Yes. Had a lot to do with him in the early days. Teachers’ for instance, and I will talk about Warwick Credit Union, would sponsor people going to seminars. I think they gave us our first accounting machine, and even our second accounting machine. When we finished with the older one we gave it Stanthorpe with Teachers’ blessing. With myself I think Teachers’ gave me a scholarship to go to one of the seminars, it may have been the second or third I just can’t remember, week-long seminar at Toowoomba at the Range Motel. They were always doing those things, I won’t say giving money away, assisting little credit unions around the place.
What about Jack Ross?
AMcC: Tremendous person. He had the credit union heart, he had all that sort of philosophic thing at heart. I think he also started up the Society for the teachers’ medical benefits. He was always involved in that sort of thing. Very, very down-to-earth person. He gave my Chairman some information when my Chairman first got into it, which was never let your deficit get over the amount of your shares. My Chairman, or my Board, never did. I think because of that it is why our credit union is still there and still doing well and we have got good reserves. That is one of the things I can remember of Jack. He was always going to everything, always supportive of everything.
He and Merv Callaghan were in AFCUL. In fact they were there at the foundation of AFCUL. Did you ever have anything to do with AFCUL meetings, or go to AFCUL?
AMcC: No never. I was too much of an underling to go to those sorts of things.
What about Warburton Schools, Newport Schools?
AMcC: No.
Perth, Adelaide, any of the Schools there?
AMcC: Anything further than Warwick I never went to much.
Chapters?
AMcC: Yes we were involved in the Chapters. There was, as far as I know, three Chapters in Queensland. There was the Charlie Compton Chapter in Brisbane, the Toowoomba or Darling Downs Chapter and then sometime later a Southside Chapter was started up. As I said before they could see that it was getting to expensive to go to some of these hotels and motels. So they sort of did the plain-type seminars to assist the smaller-type credit unions that couldn’t afford it. Charlie Compton was an Irishman? He came out here before 1968 and they named the Chapter after him.
I thought he was an American? He came from an America anyway, whether he was an Irishman or American.
AMcC: Godfrey would know. I always thought he was an Irishman.
Is Godfrey an Irishman?
AMcC: Yes. He went back for a three-month holiday and returned a month or two ago.
Well he is working in his son’s business now. Maybe his son has gone away and that is why he hasn’t got time for me.
AMcC: Yes, I think his son and daughter-in-law are running around the world now.
So were there any other upheavals that I haven’t been told about do you think? Well you won’t really know because you don’t know what I have been told.
AMcC: There wasn’t a lot. Of course there was always a lot of internal stuff that went on, but I think it was just the normal sorts of things that happen over time. They were the major ones I suppose, the Teachers’ and the League on in 1978. A lot of people never really got over it.
What about the Postal and Technicians? Was there a certain rivalry there?
AMcC: Yes there certainly was and it is still on today. Of course the silly thing about it is, if you go way back, the problem is a Union-created one. Jack Harvey approached Postal Techs’ Credit Union and said, “Hey can we join, let’s get together.” They thought it was terrific but then the Union got involved and said they weren’t going to have any posties or linesmen, they weren’t as good as technicians, and wouldn’t let them do it at all. I think they gave them something like $30,000 to start the Australian Postal Credit Union off. Now of course it is three or four times the size of Postal Techs’, which is now Sunstate Credit Union. There has always been a rivalry between the two. Credit Union Australia, or Australia Post, is very, very strong in promotion and getting involved with advertising, whereas Sunstate tend to be fairly laid back and quiet in their advertising. I can remember when I worked for Sunstate for two or three years as Promotions Officer, or whatever you want to call it, we were always coming across where Credit Union Australia was saying probably things that they shouldn’t have said. They were always fairly tough in their advertising where as Sunstate was a bit laid back. There was a gentlemen’s agreement that we kept out of Posties and they kept out of Technicians, but they often didn’t. Then they got involved in Commonwealth Public Service areas. I am going back before they became Credit Union Australia. Now they are open to the world, sort of thing. They are still very strong in their advertising.
Re amalgamations, I mean there have been so many amalgamations, I was thinking that possibly you might be able to jot down a list as to who was amalgamated with whom. For instance you have got Uni, now how many did that comprise? There were a couple in there wasn’t there?
AMcC: Yes there was University and one down at George Street, I will think of that in a moment.
It is obvious that you are not going to be able to do it quickly.
AMcC: Credit Australia would be about six or seven credit unions, probably.
I will have to do it in writing, more than anything. So what area haven’t we covered that we should cover? This is a list of the attendees at the Conference there that you might talk on. For instance there is a name there, Col Chant, did you know him?
AMcC: No.
Did you have anything to do with Uni Credit Union, Gail Geronimos?
AMcC: Not a lot. I knew of her and that is about all. I knew it very well when David Dinning was Manager. There was a chap who came from the Tasmanian zinc credit union, he came up and worked for Uni as Manager for a couple of years. He went to ABC Credit Union for a couple of years while David Dinning was Manager and the chap committed suicide on the river actually. I think there have been a couple of suicides in Queensland over the years of people who couldn’t stand the stress. I don’t know a lot about the Uni Credit Union.
Not mentioning any names in this instance, but have there been an defalcations around that you remember?
AMcC: Yes. I suppose when I say I was involved in a few, I mean I was involved in a few that we found out. There was the Bayside Credit Union, he was just stupid it was something like he hadn’t turned up to work for a week or two. I was down there doing a bank reconciliation and this $500 or $600 kept on turning up as being undeposited money. When I saw the Auditor he said he had nicked off with it, which was so. It was only something small, wouldn’t have been a $1,000, fancy losing a job for that amount. There was Hardy’s Credit Union. A few others I can’t remember off-hand. There have been a few around the place, yes.
Any big ones?
AMcC: Yes. Queensland Coastal Credit Union was fairly big. Again it is only rumour, but $2 million, $3 million.
Individuals rather than groups?
AMcC: Yes, that was an individual there. I guess from what I can work out he wouldn’t have actually got off with the $2 or $3 million. It started more with things like trying to keep his delinquency down, so he had to keep on re-borrowing, re-negotiating loans of people who were actually bad debts and had shot through. Along the line there if there was a person with a bad debt he sort of kept it on his books by re-negotiating it. That could end up as millions of dollars. But he did get away with some money as well.
Now what other area should we talk about that we haven’t? We haven’t talked much about Warwick have we? For instance the granite belt credit union, what was that?
AMcC: That was Stanthorpe. They amalgamated with South East Community Credit Union some five or six years ago. We had a lot to do with it, naturally enough, because they are only half an hour away. Our Chairman and their Chairman, for the first four or five years, got on pretty well together. We haven’t had a lot to do with them of course since. They stayed in the League and we got out, so I supposed we kept apart for that reason, then when they amalgamated it was Beaudesert or South East Community Credit Union so we didn’t have a lot to do with them.
Were you involved in any Publicity Committees, any newsletters anywhere in the League?
AMcC: Well I suppose we all had a go at it somewhere along the line. There was only Bernie and I and if people wanted newsletters written we would probably write the things and get them printed, or help them print them, over the years. Not actually as a Committee as such. But we were everything anyhow.
So you were versatile.
AMcC: Yes we seemed to be able to turn our hand to everything. I think we were averaging about sixty hours a week at one stage there for months on end. You would be going to Board meetings and getting home at 2.00 o’clock or 3.00 o’clock in the morning, we weren’t allowed to stay away. For the first two or three years I was there we had to drive back from Stanthorpe or Warwick or Toowoomba, Kingaroy, even Rockhampton we had to come back from. Not able to stay the night. Sometimes we would nick off to another credit union at 2.00 o’clock in the morning to give them a hand if they couldn’t balance their books. You would just go straight to work at 7.00 or 8.00 o’clock in the morning, you hadn’t had any sleep. That was sort of par for the course and I don’t think we were tremendous for doing that or anything.
Steve Birt used to do that sort of thing in New South Wales.
AMcC: Yes, he was a good old mate of mine. He was involved in Teachers’ and what have you. We all seem to have done it. Whether it has been worthwhile or not, you wonder sometimes. Learnt a lot, I guess, anyhow. Met a lot of wonderful people.
Were you involved in credit union education in kits or anything like that?
AMcC: Yes, we got involved in those sorts of things. That became more sophisticated, or professional I guess, as more staff came on in 1974, 1975. We did different sorts of kits for schools. They were starting one just as I left, I just can’t remember now. We put out a few kits, lots of brochures, fair few newsletters. Helped them with Annual Reports, that sort of thing.
Are you still in Warwick?
AMcC: Yes I am in Warwick. It has been there since 1970. We are twenty-one years old. We were formed in June 1970. We opened in July 1970. We have been going ever since. We changed our name from Warwick and District Community Credit Union Limited to just Warwick Credit Union because it became a mouthful. We now have a main office in Warwick, an office in Killarney, full branch office there, an agency in Allingham, we are going to open up another office down the road in the shopping centre and out at Inglewood. We have done fairly well over the years. It has been hard work, but it has worked out well.
Where now, what about the future of credit unions? There is a lot of argument over Project Renewal and where the movement might have gone wrong and where it is going.
AMcC: Yes. We don’t believe in Project Renewal, though perhaps to a minor extent we believe in the principle of what is happening. It tends to seem that a few people are trying to take over the place and centralise it from Canberra. We won’t be in that in any way whatsoever. I think if credit unions try to get back to basics we will do okay. Thankfully, my Board things the same way. But, particularly in AFCUL, they are trying to get involved in areas that have nothing to do with us. They want to get involved in the banking system and what have you, but if we just stayed as credit unions we would do all right. I mean there are plenty of credit unions who have got travel agencies and leisure shops and insurances and whatever. Over the years they have tended to have problems with those even to the extent, though you can never find out for sure, that they must be propping them up to the detriment of the actual credit union. I think if we just went back to attracting deposits and lending the money out we would all do better. It is hard enough doing that and keeping your delinquency down without getting involved in everything else but the kitchen sink. I think there is a big niche for credit unions to fulfil. The banks in particular aren’t any better, or don’t look after their clients any better, than they did years ago, they still treat them the same way, besides the charges. So I still believe there is a niche for us if we get back to basics and just try and do the right thing by our members, rather than get involved in everything else.
I have got a criticism of the credit union movement that it is just the same sort of situation as the banks, as far as I can see, in their investment policy. They don’t seem to invest with productive capacity, they just seem to shuffle paper along with everybody else.
AMcC: Yes I suppose so. We are fairly well restricted in where we can invest it, of course.
Why don’t they change it?
AMcC: Legislation has got to do that.
Why don’t they change the legislation is what I mean. Get a Legislative Committee going and push?
AMcC: I guess we could do that. After what has happened in the last couple of years maybe we don’t want to. Maybe some of those politicians weren’t as silly as we thought they were. Some credit unions have got involved in entrepreneurial lending and they have gone down the tubes and are not there any more. I can remember Murray Credit Union being touted as the community credit union to look up to, but look at Murray now it has gone with $6 million or $8 million down the tubes because they got into stupid lending and had no security.
That is the paper shuffling. It is when they try and move the paper shuffling into trying to take over productive interests that it goes down, because the back-up is just all paper, there is nothing there.
AMcC: That’s right. I guess that goes back to what I said, if we got back to basics. Our credit union is fairly innovative, we are very much into housing and business lending, we have been for over thirteen years. We have got bricks and mortar, we haven’t got the business as back-up or the stock as back-up, or goodwill. I mean what is goodwill. We have got a house or a shop so that if they go down the tubes we can sell it. When these other places were lending on their names and their goodwill’s, and as I say paper shuffling, if you sell it backwards and forwards enough you have got to make a profit and the thing is only worth probably worth a quarter of what it showed it was.
Well, what else? What is your own credit union’s prognosis for the League do you think? Will they go into Project Renewal or will they not?
AMcC: At the moment I would say no, and I hope they don’t. We may be forced into it, although they think they can stand on their own, give services in other areas, take them out of AFCUL and do it. It may be difficult staying out of it perhaps in the future. As I said before I hope they don’t go in. We would probably pull out and try and do it on our own, even though AFCUL says they will take this off us and do that. We did it before on our own and I guess we can do it again. We have got chequeing. We didn’t need AFCUL to do that, the Federation did it on its own, there were only four credit unions that did it. We went to the banks and said, “Hey we want member chequeing,” and we got it. We were one of the few credit unions allowed to use Bankcard. Because of AFCUL’s fiddling around and trying to get involved in bank card companies themselves, we lost the damn thing. Now we are not allowed to use it at all. Again if they had just left things alone we might be better off. I think the League has got a lot of things going for it. It certainly helped us out. It was a case of having to get into the League if we wanted to keep on going on our own. Most of the personnel that had been involved in all the kafuffle in the late 1970s had gone, so it was an opportune moment when we came back last year.
So the League and the Federation might unite against AFCUL then?
AMcC: Well as a joke, I mean if they had hassle, the Federation is there and they could all affiliate with the Federation. That is a possibility yes. That is probably another reason to keep the Federation going, even though there is only four us, they might have to use that as a vehicle against AFCUL or Project Renewal.
End Tape 1B: 4533 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes
I neglected to ask you about Cherbourg, the starting of an Aboriginal Credit Union at Cherbourg. I find that you were much involved with it. How did you get involved?
AMcC: Well through the League naturally enough. My work mate, Bernie Farrelly, actually formed Cherbourg Credit Union. He probably had more to do with it than I did.
Was the initiative from them or was it pushed by the League or by you people?
AMcC: I think it was pushed by us. There was a lady came from Cherbourg who wanted the thing to get going.
She was an Aboriginal?
AMcC: Yes an Aboriginal lady.
You know AFCUL was pushing it?
AMcC: That is some time later though, probably a couple of years later. I am talking probably 1971 when we formed it, it might even have been going in 1970.
That is the time that AFCUL, Dermot Ryan in particular, was pushing it in New South Wales anyway.
AMcC: Well it may have even been going earlier, I am not 100 per cent sure.
Who was she?
AMcC: I have not idea, I couldn’t even think of her name.
Was Cherbourg still a Mission at that time?
AMcC: Yes. We went up there a few times, Bernie more than myself, but he used to relate things that happened up there. There was a little lady up there who had probably half a dozen kids and she did the books and she did a brilliant set of books. They were nice and neat and they always balanced. Naturally enough they weren’t big loans and there wasn’t many people in the actual credit union, probably something like twenty or thirty, or forty at the most. Loans were only $100 and $50. She kept it going for probably two or three years, but in the end we had to fold it down, just write it off, because people just went to other Missions around the place. But she tried very hard, and most of them tried very hard. Contrary to everybody’s belief they are wonderful people. We used to have tea at her place and it was spotlessly clean. I am saying all these things, and you probably shouldn’t because you should accept them as they are, but I think Bernie may even have stayed overnight at her place just once.
Did they have a proper Board and a Supervisory Committee and that sort of thing?
AMcC: They had a Board.
Who was the Board?
AMcC: Aboriginals, naturally enough, all of them. Everything to do with the credit union was Aboriginal.
It was a Mission, so who ran the Mission?
AMcC: They basically run themselves. They had their own police force, their own little council. From what I can remember there were no whites involved at all. Probably the only whites involved in the credit union would be Bernie and myself, going along to their meetings. Even though they had a Board of seven, or nine, it probably was almost non-existent. Mainly these couple of girls kept the thing going for a long time. In fact I think we sponsored this particular girl to a couple of schools. I can remember her coming along, but I just have no idea what her name was. It worked very very well except I guess the bad debts beat them in the long run, even though you were only talking about $300 or $500 at the most. Most of the loans were $50, $60, that sort of thing. But these couple of ladies tried very hard to keep it going. There was a movement later on, or maybe the same time, Australia-wide and we tried to get something going nationally, but it never really worked. I know the New South Wales League put on a couple of Aboriginal Field Officers and I think that was a failure.
Did you meet them?
AMcC: One of them came up to us for a month.
Which one, was he an Aboriginal Islander or an Aboriginal?
AMcC: An Aboriginal.
That would be Ted Field. They were both Ted, Ted Field and Ted Wymara.
AMcC: I would say it would be Ted Field, but I am only guessing.
Ted Wymara was the Islander. Ted Field was the Aboriginal.
AMcC: Bernie had more to do with it because he would have taken him around, being the boss.
Unfortunately it didn’t work out in New South Wales either. They didn’t run it themselves. The one that was started in Sydney, Boomerang, that was just started by white people sort of for them.
AMcC: We tend to think over the years that they should run it themselves, let them make their own mistakes, we can guide them. They are quite happy to do that, rather than having us say they would do this or do that, half the Board white and so on. Actually there was a bit of problem because we had Murgon Credit Union which was just down the road and there was animosity between Murgon and Cherbourg itself. Some of the meetings we would go to we were always questioned about that other credit union down the road. They didn’t like them at all.
Were they doing anything to help?
AMcC: Not at all. They were hindering if anything. Typical thing that one was white and the other black and that was it.
Well Cherbourg has got quite a nasty history, frankly.
AMcC: Yes. You are right there. They have had problems over the years.
It was the threat, if you don’t behave yourself under the Act you go to Cherbourg.
AMcC: Yes, you go back to Cherbourg. They seemed to have run it fairly strictly when we were up there in the early 1970s. Maybe that is the answer, that the councillors look after their own. If they get into trouble they give them a clip around the ear rather than us trying to do the right thing, be social workers and don’t give them a clip in the ear.
I know a little bit about it because my wife comes from up that way. Although her farm, and he fathers, they didn’t have anybody under the Act, they didn’t believe in it, a lot of them used to have.
Some people used to use it as a threat even if they weren’t under the Act. “If you don’t do the right thing, back to Cherbourg for you.”
AMcC: It sort of worked all right. We ended up closing it down and writing it off ourselves. But these couple of ladies tried very hard to keep it going for a couple of years, or three years or something.
Well thank you very much.
End Tape 2B: 1126 Words: 30 minutes