25 SEPTEMBER 1991: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO HAROLD MARSH
I will ask you Mr Marsh, where were you born and when?
HM: I was born in Roma, a town in the south-west of Queensland, 27 October 1918.
Did you grow up around there?
HM: No, we had a station property out there, but because of drought at that time we had to get out of it and we had to come down to Brisbane. Came down to Brisbane at the age of four and lived at Shorncliffe for quite some time.
You grew up there and went to school there?
HM: I went to school in Shorncliffe and then went to the Brisbane Grammar School. I did then spend some time in the Teachers’ Training College and went out teaching in January 1936.
What did your father do and what influence did you get from him do you think?
HM: My father was a station owner but unfortunately the drought did the worst on him in those days in 1922. He just retired from station owning and lived a life of leisure for some time. Finished up he went out to the west, he couldn’t leave the west, and he died out there.
What sort of influence do you think you got from him?
HM: Well I was only a youngster when we came to Brisbane. I didn’t see much of him after that. He came down regularly on holidays from working out there, but I didn’t see very much of him at the time.
What about the influence from your mother then?
HM: One hundred per cent always. I couldn’t have asked, if even if I had put an order in for a mother, couldn’t have asked for a better one.
Did you like school?
HM: Yes I did like school. I liked primary school. Didn’t fancy secondary school very much, I wasn’t the sporty-type and in secondary school you have to play a little bit of sport. I was fairly successful anyway.
What led you to go to teachers’ college?
HM: In 1932 I passed what they called the Junior and was looking for a job in the Depression years. I started a job in the electric light company, didn’t like that. Got the qualifications for teaching and took it.
What did you like or dislike about the teachers’ college?
HM: The teachers’ college was quite interesting. I had two years there. I enjoyed going out in the country more afterwards, went back to the country area south of Gladstone, a little town called Magrron, where there was a little two-teacher school. I spent two years out there and came back to Brisbane in 1938. When I came back to Brisbane I started at the Enoggera State School in August 1938, Enoggera is a north-west suburb of Brisbane. I left there in 1965, twenty-seven years and four months at the one school. I went from 1965 to 1969 at the school just west of Enoggera.
When did you first hear about credit unions?
HM: In 1963 I think it was. I was travelling with the school boy cricket team, as the manager, to Adelaide and I came across what they called SATISFAC. SATISFAC was a buying co-operative set up by the South Australian Teachers’ Institute. It was a trading co-operative, members could buy their white goods or whatever and at the end of the year a dividend would be declared and they would get a payment on whatever money they had spent. The following year I went down to Victoria for the same reason and came across Whitehall, which was a similar set up by the Victorian Teachers’ Union. I came back to Brisbane and had a meeting of the Queensland Teachers’ Union and I moved a motion that the Teachers’ Union look into the setting of trading co-operatives, similar to Whitehall. Old Jack Ross was appointed to immediately look into that and he came up with the ABC Credit Union. That is how we first heard of the ABC Credit Union and the Police Credit Union which were running. The group decided to set up a credit union. The Teachers’ Union was asked to assist financially in the first twelve months to get us off the ground, to get us going, and the remark of the General Secretary of the day was, ‘They said they could stand on their own two feet, let’s see them.’ Wasn’t very long before they were laughing.
You were involved right from the start?
HM: Yes I was at the original meeting, I was on the Committee and I was on the first Board. I was Secretary for a while. Right from the start from March 1965 until I left the credit union in November 1990.
Were you anything to do with organising the first credit union league in Queensland?
HM: No. Jack was more the representative on that matter. He was the Chairman of our Board and he was the one who was elected to do the job. He attended all the meetings for the formation of a league. I think I came on the League Board shortly after that.
Can you remember in the formation of the Teachers’ Credit Union in Queensland who else was on the Board at that time?
HM: I think I might be the only one left. Jack Ross was the Chairman. A chap called Alf Kirby, Col Dawe; Lloyd Hawkins came on later; George Kendall. They didn’t hang around the credit union movement very long. Jack Ross and I were the only ones that continued on really.
Can you remember who addressed the formation meeting?
HM: Godfrey Stephens was the unpaid Manager, I suppose, of the ABC Credit Union and he addressed our first meeting. We had forty people immediately join up that night, but Godfrey did the job application.
Do you know who started the ABC Credit Union in Queensland?
HM: I wouldn’t, I have no idea.
My suspicion it was Stan Arneil.
HM: Oh I beg your pardon. I believe Stanley had something to do with it and Godfrey Stephens and others worked at it as well. It was interesting at that first meeting. I told you we had forty people join up, I think the joining fee at that time was ten shillings and you had to buy five shares at one pound. So we had two hundred pounds plus forty ten shillings. One chap rang me up the next week to ask me how much money we had. I told him two hundred pounds and he said he would borrow it. That was the first loan we made and we made it very quickly.
Did you have any premises, or was it the Secretary’s address?
HM: No. The Secretary of the day was the Secretary of the School Sports Association and he had an office in Wigham Terrace. We used to work out of there after hours. We moved down to Edwards Street, where we had rooms in the old Postal Tech Credit Union Building. Then we moved from there into our own building in Fortitude Valley, which we rented. We moved later and built the ‘Taj Mahal’ not far away. Everybody called it that. It was a beautiful building too.
So what other credit unions were going at that time when you first started? What year was it that you first started in the Teachers’?
HM: 1965. The ABC was going. The Police. The Postal Technicians Credit Union and the Postal Credit Union, two separate ones. There were a few more formed after that time. Barden Place was going, some of the few smaller parish credit unions were formed. Godfrey Stephens and I would travel around forming credit unions wherever we could. I have made a few trips with Godfrey as a matter of fact. I think Godfrey was responsible for forming about thirteen or fourteen credit unions. They were small ones when they started. They not very quickly lost their viability and they couldn’t stand up to the pressure later on and a lot of them closed down. They still started and operated for a while.
Under what auspices were you going round starting credit unions?
HM: Godfrey was working for the League at that time, I think. I only had some spare time during the holidays when I wasn’t teaching, but when I went in to managing the Teachers’ Credit Union in 1969 I used to go out with Godfrey on some occasions. I managed to get away to accompany him on his trips.
I suppose you must have met people like Merv Callaghan in the early times?
HM: Yes I met Merv of the Police Credit Union, of course. Met some very great people, as a matter of fact, in those days. Probably a hard job to remember them, it is so long ago, but I will remember one of them was Stan Arneil. I will never forget Stan Arneil.
When the AFCUL was first formed, were you down at that meeting?
HM: Jack Ross.
Merv Callaghan and Tom Dyer for Queensland at that time, yes. You were very shortly Vice-President, in 1970 anyway.
HM: That is a long way back. One of the great people I met there was Bill Robson. Bill Robson was Chairman of the League for quite a little while. Jim Green and David Dinning. David Dinning went to Adelaide of course. George Muldor from Beau Desert, never forget poor old George with his beanie. George was a great actor. Jack Harvey from the old Postal Credit Union that later became the Australia Post Credit Union. Quite a few of them. Very happy to have met a lot of them. Some of them I have just forgotten.
How did you come to be Manager of the Teachers’ Credit Union?
HM: I was on the Board. I was Secretary. I used to do a lot of the volunteer work, going in there after teaching. Go in and do a lot of the work.
How did you run the books at Teachers’ in the first place?
HM: The Secretary, before I took the job, was Col Dawe. His nephew used to look after the book work. One time we had a meeting and he hadn’t done it for three months. So we decided something had to be done about it. The books were three months behind. Someone suggested we get somebody in to straighten the books out and I said, ‘My wife might be able to do that.’ She worked for years in the G A Coles office. Six to eight weeks she worked in getting those books up to date, working practically all night sometimes. She would wake up at 2.00 o’clock in the morning and get out of bed saying she had found where a mistake had happened. The place was in an uproar, cardboard boxes everywhere. But she did straighten the stuff out in six weeks. After that I was asked by Jack Ross did I think I could become the Manager of the credit union. I said I would dearly love to do it. I was wrapped up in credit unions. So my wife and I were virtually the first employees of the credit union. She did all the book work and I did the other work.
Before you became Manager was there a Supervisory Committee and was there a Treasurer?
HM: There was a Treasurer. I forget who it was at that time. We didn’t get shook on Supervisory Committees up here. We did have Supervisory Committees but I well remember that the Supervisory Committee would come into the office and you would have to show them what to do. If you wanted you could cover anything up without any trouble because they weren’t experienced, so we decided that we would get a good Auditor. So we had a good Auditor.
What about an Internal Auditor did you have one of those?
HM: No we did not. The Auditor did as much work as was possible.
He was external, but was he full-time or permanent part-time?
HM: No we paid him a fee. It was an annual arrangement. He was available at any time of the year.
Did he put a lot of work in during the year?
HM: Yes he was a very good adviser to the credit union, helped us a lot. Helped a lot of other credit unions too.
Now when you became Manager how did you run it yourself? Did you have pay-roll deductions at that time?
HM: Yes we got those as soon as possible. They couldn’t take too much out of our pay at the time. I think it might have been about $50 and no more, but we gradually built that up. We had no trouble getting pay-roll deduction from the Education Department. I suppose as Manager for quite some time I was probably Manager in the office and Promotions Officer when I was outside, because I used to do trips all over Queensland. I remember one trip I went right up the north coast as far as Cairns and Port Douglas. I was away four weeks. On the way up I looked in on schools when I found the time, on the way back I looked in on the schools I missed on the way up. Four weeks trip, that was the longest trip I made. I made trips to Mount Isa and the Gold Coast, the far south-west. I was out of the office quite a bit. But I had a very good Office Manager in my wife.
Did you start the School Representative system?
HM: I don’t think we did, not in my time. That came later.
So it was the Field Officer system and you were it?
HM: I was the Field Officer. We sent a terrific amount of stuff out to members. We always kept our members well advised as to what was going on. I think that credit unions of the present day have to be careful they don’t fall in the trap of thinking the members don’t need to know those things. Even now I know of credit unions that don’t keep their members well advised. We were never guilty of that.
Did you liaise with the League when it started? Were you involved in the starting of the League?
HM: I was a great supporter of the League, I thought it was a great idea. I supported them in every way that I could.
But it was started before you were involved?
HM: It was started before I became a Manager of the credit union yes. But I still supported them when I was a Director.
Do you know actually how the League started and who was responsible for starting it here?
HM: Well I suppose Jack Ross must have had something to do with it and Merv Callaghan and Tom Dyer and those. They must have had something to do with it.
But you didn’t have any direct knowledge?
HM: Not on the formation.
When you were Manager, how long did you go on with the field work before you started coming in and managing the credit union?
HM: Probably about 1969. In 1971 we might have appointed an Assistant Manager, Lloyd Hawkins. He became more the Field Officer and I stayed more in the office.
When you mentioned Lloyd Hawkins I thought about the ATMs. Your credit union was the first to put in ATMs in Australia. Were you much involved in that?
HM: I didn’t have much to do with that. I passed that over to Lloyd Hawkins. We sent him overseas to study ATMs and he did a grand job over there studying those. He came back and he set the ATMs up. He really made the computer work, the ATM work, his own. He knew all about it and was very skilled in that area.
How did the accounting go? You started off with your wife doing it by hand presumably. What system did you go on to next? Did you go on to batch computerisation?
HM: No we had accounting machines, I forget what you call them, enormous accounting machines. We had six of those at one time and if we hadn’t have gone on to our own computer we would have had forty of them before long. We just couldn’t keep up on those machines, and we had six of them and they would be going like the clappers all day. We put our NCR computer in and then later on the League put their one in and we switched to the League business.
So you put your own computer in first?
HM: We had our own computer running in our own building.
Completely independently of anybody else?
HM: Yes.
You never had bureau operation?
HM: No, not before we went to the League.
The other thing that was set up within the League and also within the credit union movement generally in Queensland, insurance. Was it already set up for you to get credit union insurance in the first instance?
HM: I can’t recall where we had the early insurance. Building insurance of course, that was carried by somebody here. I think one of the greatest benefits to the credit union movement, the credit union people, was the coming of CUNA Mutual/CUMIS Insurance Society. When that came we really grasped it with both hands. Jack Ross was a magnificent supporter. I supported them wholesale, I think they were of great benefit to members. It is a shame it hasn’t continued that way.
When the split occurred in New South Wales, which spread all over the country, which side did you come out on?
HM: The insurance angle you mean? I well remember that. The Queensland League was very upset about that. As a matter of fact we decided here at the Queensland League that we would do something to try and convince the other States we should not split away from CUNA Mutual/CUMIS Insurance Society, that the benefit was there. I still say that if every credit union in Australia had supported and stuck with CUNA Mutual/CUMIS we would have had the best insurance service in the country. Our League Board decided that Bill Robson, the Chairman of the day, and I should travel round the country and go and visit every capital city in about nine days. Spend one night in a place and go to the next one. We did every capital city, including Canberra, to talk to League Boards to try and get them to stick with CUNA Mutual/CUMIS, take them on wholesale. We weren’t very successful.
What did Ken Miller say?
HM: I think Ken was anti CUNA Mutual. I didn’t talk to him much about that.
Did they spell out the issues they had against what CUNA Mutual/CUMIS was doing?
HM: I am not really aware. So I prefer not to speak on this aspect.
Fair enough. I have already interviewed Ken three times and he has put his point of view fairly forcibly.
HM: I can imagine that. I know Ken Miller. I still think they were wrong.
Stan Arneil, although he has spoken to me on the phone, refuses to be recorded for the project.
HM: That is a shame that Stan Arneil is not being taken in and really researched.
He is being researched. I have spoken to him over the phone but he won’t be recorded.
HM: He should be recorded. I do think there are other people in CUNA Mutual/CUMIS that should be recorded as well. I would like to hear John Granata on this aspect.
I have already contacted him and he may be in it.
HM: I think that is important. I am not looking for a trip for you Richard, but I think you should go overseas and research the whole matter over there.
Don’t think I haven’t thought of it. There is plenty that has been written from the other side as well, but not so much in Australia actually. The other things that the credit union needed at that time? The Reserve, the Savings Protection Fund that was set up in Queensland, were you involved in the setting up of that?
HM: I might have been on the League Board at that time. I was quite in favour of that. I think most of the credit unions supported that.
Did you believe in the compulsory Reserve?
HM: Yes I did. I think that was necessary. You always got those who weren’t in favour of that sort of thing but the moment they got into trouble they would come crying.
Were you on the Legislative Committee?
HM: No.
So you weren’t pushing the legislation, but you did believe in it being compulsory?
HM: I believed in the Credit Union Act. I think was necessary. I was a bit concerned about some of the aspects of it. I have written a few comments to the Registrar on the Credit Union Act as it presently stands. There are certain aspects of which I am not in favour. I doubt whether they can be corrected. I am strongly in favour of staff not being members of their own credit union. There are a number of leagues in the States where the league sets up a credit union for credit union staff and even credit union Directors. It is too easy for staff to be involved in election of Directors, to easy for staff to be involved at Annual General Meetings in very important motions. I don’t think the staff should have that say.
You would have experience of that in Teachers’ Credit Union?
HM: I have had experience of that and I was very sorry to see that done in that credit union at that time. You have probably heard reports about it. It was in my opinion a disgusting affair for anybody to involve staff in election of Directors, or dismissal of Directors, or the decision on matters or motions put forward by members.
When that particular thing, since you mentioned it there, came out it was at the stage when another credit union which you were involved with was being amalgamated into Teachers’ wasn’t it? How did you become involved with that?
HM: That was just a part of the whole deal. The amalgamation of the APM and Prime Movers’ Credit Union, with Teachers’ was a side-line that just occurred at the same time as the other matter.
Do you live in that area? How did you get involved with it?
HM: It was a community-type credit union so anybody of course from anywhere can be a member. I think Godfrey Stephens, after he left the League, went as Manager of the APM and Prime Movers’ Community Credit Union and he asked me if I would be on the Board, which I did. I think I might have been Chairman for some time, but I am not sure.
Did you suggest the amalgamation?
HM: No, I think the suggestion for the amalgamation probably came from the Queensland Teachers’ Credit Union and was accepted well and truly by APM, because APM was small and struggling and it was a great idea. Unfortunately it wasn’t done correctly.
You were Manager at that time, or had you just left?
HM: I had just left. I retired in 1978. I turned sixty on 28 October 1978 and at that age I retired. I went back on the Board. Some people feel I should not have gone back on the Board and I suppose as it turned out it would have been better if I had not. But I had no reason why I shouldn’t sit on that Board. I had been on the Board before. I had been involved with the credit union right since March 1965. I could not see any harm in going back on the Board.
In New South Wales I am doing the Police Credit Union at the present moment and they had quite a controversy there after their Manager went back on the Board, Arthur Sharp. People thought he influenced the new Manager to a greater extent than he might. This became a controversy and sort of blew up into something out of proportion to what actually happened. Do you think that is the sort of thing that might have happened at Teachers?
HM: I hope I was not guilty of that. When I decided to go back on the Board, I had had some time off because I couldn’t go back until the next Annual General Meeting. I was elected by the members back to the Board. I didn’t appoint myself to the Board. When I did decide to go back on the Board I spoke to Lloyd Hawkins and said I wanted to go back on the Board but I wouldn’t interfere in his operation, I wouldn’t be critical in anyway, be was the Manager he had to run the show. I would have to make decisions on Board action, and whatever the Board decided I would have to follow those decisions. I don’t think I harmed him anyway in that aspect. I think the harm came from other areas and from himself, in my opinion.
Lloyd Hawkins worked under you for a number of years?
HM: From 1971 until 1978, when I retired.
You got on well, did you?
HM: Yes, I would say we did. As far as I was concerned I got on well with him. I had no complaints about his work or anything else.
The Board of Teachers’ sent him over to America specifically to investigate computerisation?
HM: Yes the Board sent him over.
Was his brief to investigate ATMs, or was it to investigate the whole field of electronic banking and computerisation?
HM: ATMs and the new building. I don’t know whether he looked at both aspects at the one time, there might have been two trips, I am not sure. It is a long while ago. He looked into the new building as well and I put the construction of the new building in his hands. Again he did a very good job. He co-ordinated everything very well.
That was quite something that ATMs were started up by Teachers’ Credit Union in Queensland at that time, right ahead of anything else.
HM: When you see the number of ATMs around the countryside now you realise what a great move it was. I think the Teachers’ Board was very proud of the fact. I was and I think Lloyd was. I think the whole movement was proud to think that something had been done. It wasn’t long before others started it, the banks and finance companies. They are all over the place now.
Who was responsible for spreading it to Canberra and South Australia? Was that because of CPS Credit Unions or one of those?
HM: I don’t know. It could have been that those representatives came up to have a look at our operation. I just can’t recall that.
All I know that you started it in 1977 and by 1979, when the World Council was on in Sydney, you already had an advert in the paper which stated the branches and credit unions which were involved. There were two in Adelaide and one in Canberra included in your network. It might have been Telecom, actually, PosTel, the phone lines. There was a connection between the credit unions.
HM: I couldn’t tell you, I am sorry. Can’t help you on that at all.
I will have to find that out. I did notice in that Financial Review lift-out that came out in 1979 on the World Council that there was a big advert there.
HM: I think it might have come from contact from South Australia coming up individually, on their own behalf, coming up. Canberra also coming up. Lloyd was probably involved in helping them in that area.
There was criticism from New South Wales, and of course you can argue that it might have been sour grapes because they weren’t first. The argument was that you needed to set it up properly, but you did move quickly into another bank arrangement didn’t you when they started, the ANZ.
HM: That was after my time, I think. I don’t remember that one.
That arrangement was already going when AFCUL and New South Wales League managed to get theirs going.
HM: I can’t recall that one, so I won’t comment.
It was, I have got evidence of that.
HM: I would agree with you.
But you don’t have personal knowledge. What shall we do next? Insurance we have covered and Savings Protection Fund. Legislative Committee, you weren’t involved in that. You were involved in AFCUL but we had better start from scratch on that because you have got quite a large involvement there.
HM: I don’t think I had a large involvement with AFCUL.
Not as much as Merv and Jack Ross, that is true, but you were Vice-President at times.
HM: Of the League you mean?
No, of AFCUL.
HM: I don’t think I was.
You were.
HM: Must have been a very small Board.
I have got a full set of Annual Meetings.
HM: Well if you say so, I must have been. Once you get to seventy-two you forget.
You are much older than Tom Kelly.
End Tape 1A: 4909 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes
Now although you say you don’t remember much about your involvement with AFCUL, I will ask you, for instance, do you remember the Chief Executive Officer Dermot Ryan?
HM: I remember Dermot Ryan very well, a fine credit union man.
Do you remember when he was involved in a lot of lobbying to get the taxation cases overturned on a political level?
HM: I don’t know the detail, but I know he was involved. I remember Dermot Ryan, if we may break away from that aspect. We attended an AFCUL meeting in Pittwater, that Newport School. Some of us had a room down in the lower part of the building and I think we were probably all teetotallers, or very nearly teetotallers any way. Dermot had to have a League meeting the next day and he came in with carton after carton after carton and he opened the fridge door and there were two bottles of orange juice in there. He said, ‘What’s this? Orange Juice in a League fridge?” So he filled it up completely with beer and he finally said, ‘There, that’s a credit union fridge for you.” I will never forget it. That was Dermot Ryan all over.
I have heard many stories about him. Have you got any more stories about him?
HM: I might think of one later.
Anything regarding Canberra, Gold Coast, Wollongong?
HM: If I think of any, I will give you a ring.
What about Newport Schools? Can you remember who was at that Newport School that you attended?
HM: Stan Arneil was head boss in that day.
Were the Americans there? Father Ganey?
HM: Yes, Father Ganey was there. I think the other fellow from America, Charles Compton was there. A good School that time. Stan Arneil was an expert at running Schools in my opinion. It is a shame that his sort of value disappeared from the whole show.
Did you have any first-hand knowledge of the arguments between him and the League over the matter of insurance when he became Manager?
HM: Not really, not first-hand knowledge.
What about Dermot Ryan as Chief Executive Officer, his resignation, did you know anything personally about that?
HM: No, I did not. I am sorry.
That’s all right, I have got plenty of stories already. Were you at that Wollongong Annual Meeting of AFCUL when Stan Arneil was turned away?
HM: I don’t remember Stan being turned away really. I think I remember the Wollongong School. I recall that. I remember Bill Robson and I went down as representatives, there might have been others from the Queensland League representing as well. We had a South Australian chap in our room the night before, a few South Australian fellows, talking about who was going to be the Chairman of the League and this South Australian fellow said, “Well Bill, South Australia is prepared to support you.” We left it at that. The next day when the nominations came up for Chairman of the League our particular South Australian friend nominated somebody else, so Bill was very cranky. I remember the Wollongong School now for that aspect.
David Dinning was there at the Annual General Meeting, and Jim Green I notice. You were there and so was Bill Robson. The alternates were Merv Callaghan and Godfrey Stephens that year, 1972. I put it on the card.
HM: Nineteen years ago. Goodness me. No wonder I feel ninety-two.
That was the week after the insurance split in New South Wales. The week before at the Annual General Meeting of the League at Kensington, that is when it actually happened, came out in the open, and a number of credit unions walked out and formed their own League. That happened on that occasion. The following week that was at Wollongong. I am working from the documents. I didn’t have anything to do with it in those days.
HM: I am afraid I don’t remember all those things.
I have there photocopies of the documents put out by Stan Arneil’s ABC Credit Union and the Sun-Herald one as well. They are virtually identical, the reason why they resigned from the League. The dates tally and so on.
HM: A sad day all that happened. Sad day not only for the credit unions but the credit union members, as far as I was concerned. As I said before, I thought CUNA Mutual and CUMIS Insurance Society would have been a great boon for every credit union member. If every credit union was in it now, we would be on top.
Can you remember how and why Cliff Jury became President of AFCUL? You weren’t there that year.
HM: No, I don’t recall that one, if I wasn’t there.
You were there the year before, though. I don’t know if he became President that year.
HM: Very capable man Cliff.
I have been trying to get him here.
HM: Very nice man, very capable. I think he might have been guilty of sitting on the fence on a couple of occasions, but I can’t even recall which fence it was or whether he hurt himself at all. I recall something about that, sitting on the fence. Apparently there was somebody who probably wanted to be Chairman of AFCUL and the powers-that-be didn’t want it, so the outsider might have been brought in. That happens often. That happens when a third party comes in to get rid of somebody else.
What about people who were delegates to AFCUL. This has been one of my major sources of finding out Queensland people from a while ago who were involved. I notice Trevor Crisp there. Did you know him?
HM: Trevor Crisp was from the Postal Credit Union originally. He finished up, I think, managing one of the credit unions in Toowoomba.
Len Hedger?
HM: Another one of the Postal Credit Union’s Chairman. Chairman of the League for some time. I think he may be Chairman or connected with the Postal Credit Union, I am not sure on that one.
He is Sun State now.
HM: Sun State yes.
When he split with the Queensland League were you involved with anything there? Do you know anything about it? When the Federation was set up, which is still going.
HM: I don’t know how long before that, or after that, I resigned from the League Board over that. I just told Len Hedger I couldn’t work with him so I just resigned from the League Board. I came back later of course.
Do you remember why?
HM: Just some action that was being taken, I think it was mainly opposition to the Manager, Godfrey Stephens. I was a strong supporter of Godfrey Stephens in those days and I think it was something to do with that. I know that David Dinning was involved in that also. We had a meeting at one of the hotels in town one time, the Executive of the League Board, and David Dinning said we had to get rid of Godfrey Stephens, or words to that effect. It might have been a decision of that Executive, but I said as far as I was concerned I would hear all the arguments before I made a decision on that, thank you very much. I just didn’t support it. I felt that Godfrey was doing a good job. He had told Bill Robson some time before that, “Bill, if ever you think I am not capable of carrying on with this job, I am prepared to step down and work under somebody else.” But they didn’t give him a chance.
What about Garth Furness, how did you get on with him?
HM: Garth Furness was one of two people that came from outside the movement, by outside the movement I mean weren’t involved in the movement in those days
Where did he come from?
HM: He came from the Egg Board. I don’t know which egg he came from, but he came from the Egg Board. A very capable fellow. But he and Gerry Finlayson, I believe, are two people from outside the movement who have really adapted to credit union work. Adapted to credit unionism. There is a big difference between credit unionism and financialism, if I may coin a word. I don’t know if there is such a word as financialism but it will do. Big difference. To do a decent job you have to adapt to the change, if you come from outside the field you have got to adapt to the change in the credit union system. That is one of the problems with credit unions today, I think, too many of our Managers are coming from outside the movement, they have to of course at the present time, and they are not adapting to credit unionism.
They brought in a whole lot from outside, mainly during the period of electronic banking starts, when the ATM machines were going in. Did you disapprove of that?
HM: The think is, I don’t believe they needed Managers who knew something about all that electronic stuff, they could bring in employees below them to do the job. Other businesses have employees below the top man. The top man doesn’t press the buttons. The same thing when my wife was doing the book work. I was the Manager, she did the book work, but I was still responsible for the book work even though she did the work. The same as your typists. You don’t have to type every letter that goes out, you have staff to do that sort of thing. I think it could have been a fear that the experienced man would do the better job. After all the other chap that was in there was only old Harold Marsh, or old Jack Harvey, he used to sit on the Board, how could he be the Manager of a big credit union? Ken Miller came from outside, he wasn’t in the Board area.
Yes, he came from Transport in New South Wales. He was just after foundation in the 1950s.
HM: I knew he came from Transport but I didn’t know whether or not he was on the Board.
Yes he was on the Board. They ran it themselves for years. Their method incidentally of running the books was they divided it up alphabetically and each Director was responsible for a certain number of members’ accounts. They took them home and they were responsible for that. They had a Supervisory Committee overseeing them. That was the method they used.
HM: I wasn’t aware that Ken was on the Board, I am sorry. I met Ken when he first became Manager. Talking about all this Board work and everything else, we used to have Board work in our credit union when we first started. We used to sit around and write letters to different people and each Director was given certain people to look after. We had some great experts on the Board in those days. One particular fellow I well remember. My wife had a pile of envelopes on her table one day and he said, “What are all those, Mrs Marsh?” She said, “They are all letters that have come back, not delivered, not received, not accepted by the people.” He said, “Why?” She said, “They have probably changed their address and we don’t know.” He said, “Well why don’t you write to them, asking them to let you know where they are?” He was a Board Director of this credit union.
I think that adaptation to the credit union is important and I think Gerry and Garth did that job very well. Of the Presidents of AFCUL, and I know you said you weren’t as closely connected as Jack Ross, Stan Arneil you must have met a few times?
HM: A few times. I heard from Stanley only the other day as a matter of fact. I wrote a letter to him the other day. I heard him on TV talking about his experiences. I had read his book too as a matter of fact. I thought as I hadn’t heard from him for years I thought I had better write to him to let him know I was still alive. I sent him a copy of the letter I wrote when I resigned from the Teachers’ Credit Union. I had five very good reasons why I had to resign. I won’t quote them here because somebody might be listening to this tape. He wrote back and he said when he read the reasons he was devastated. I could imagine he would be too. Stan and Dorothy. Is Dorothy still alive?
I believe so.
HM: He didn’t mention her in the letter, that’s all. Stan is a great fellow. A shame too he and Father Ganey had a bit of an argument too, a bit of a break-up.
Over what?
HM: I don’t know. But there was something wrong there somewhere.
What about Berry Calverley, did you know him?
HM: Yes I knew Berry Calverley very well. I think he came from Transport too, didn’t he?
He came from Government Transport, that’s the buses.
HM: I knew Berry Calverley very well and I thought him a great little man.
Did he come up here and visit you?
HM: Yes. He was a real gentleman, Beresford. My wife appreciated his manners very much. Great at giving advice and his advice was well-founded too. I was trying to think of something about Beresford. His favourite saying, and my wife often says it now though he has been dead for some time, “Yup, Yup.”
He used to come up here quite a bit because at the Historical Co-operative we got quite a lot of stuff that had belonged to him, all his papers from the credit unions. There were only three boxes of archive files but it included a number of Annual Reports from different credit unions in Queensland and of the League.
HM: He visited as many credit unions as he could. Beresford was always welcome to attend any credit union. They all welcomed him. He was a great man. He must have spent a lot of his own money too, helping credit unions, helping members of various credit unions too. He was always carrying something that he had to bring up to this credit union, or sending a parcel up to another credit union. That is a small credit union up in the country, he would send them a parcel of books. Must have spent a lot of money.
He went around quite a bit and he took Steve Birt with him later on, apparently.
HM: Steve Birt was a protegee of his, yes.
Steve was telling me that they used to come up here on holiday.
HM: Looked after Steve very well and I was glad to see it. Steve was a fine fellow. He is still connected with the League isn’t he?
Yes he is still President of the New South Wales League, although they are trying to abolish themselves.
HM: Is he still something to do with the Teachers’ Credit Union?
He is Assistant Manager there.
HM: Very capable fellow.
I think he is going to be continuing in AFCUL as well, I have a feeling. Of course we don’t know yet. As you know it is becoming a National Body now.
HM: Future Directors or something. Hope they don’t become like that awful bird that found himself going round and round in ever decreasing circles.
What about Graham Benson, do you remember him, Victoria?
HM: Yes I met Graham Benson.
Still very much around.
HM: Is he, he must be ninety-two.
He is about the same age as you.
HM: I remember Graham Benson and his wife. Graham was a good worker, a very energetic fellow Graham. If Graham wanted something done he would be very energetic in getting it done. Sometimes other people did it, but he was very energetic.
Did you ever go to any Warburton Schools?
HM: Yes I did. I don’t know how that place didn’t go up in smoke years before. It went up in smoke later, didn’t it? Terrible old place. I can’t remember any aspects of these schools, I am sorry. I see you have got Jack Coyne there. Jumping ahead of you am I?
No he is the next President of AFCUL, Jack Coyne I mean.
HM: Rough old Jack. I appreciated Jack very much you know. I thought he was a pretty rough diamond, you know Jack.
He is still Chairman of Sydney Credit Union.
HM: Say hello to him for me and tell him I think he is still as rough as he ever was. He is still better than some of the footballers who play now, he can do it as well as they do.
He has had to give up smoking and drinking. I think he had a mild heart attack.
HM: That must have killed him, giving up smoking and drinking. I admired Jack Coyne, a rough diamond but a real gentleman. Always had a kind word for me, I don’t know why, he must have thought I was a poor helpless fellow. Say hello to him for me.
I will do that. What about Tom Kelly?
HM: I didn’t have much to do with Tom. I met him at a few AFCUL meetings but didn’t have much to do with Tom.
Did you know anything about his pushing of a co-operative bank?
HM: No I didn’t so I couldn’t comment on that.
You don’t know anything about the various moves that they had, first New South Wales-supported and then they withdrew that support which collapsed the project?
HM: Sorry I don’t recall that, not that I want to make a comment.
Pictures of Bob Hawke and Tom Kelly looking very young.
HM: Don’t recall that at all.
Tom Kelly lost his Vice-Presidency of the New South Wales League over that.
HM: What year was that.
Now you have got me, I am not sure, I think it was 1979.
HM: I had resigned as Manager then. I wasn’t attending any of the AFCUL meetings at that time.
Did you go down to the World Council in 1979 in Sydney?
HM: Yes I did. Wild time. Very big show. I don’t know whether the credit union movement gained very much from it, I might be wrong. Lot of money spent apparently, but I don’t know whether the credit union movement in this country got much from it. As I say I might be wrong in that aspect and other people might not agree with me on that.
There is one area that we haven’t covered as yet and that is the Chapters here. Were you anything to do with the setting up of Chapters in Queensland?
HM: Charles Compton. Jack Ross set up a Chapter here in Brisbane and it was called the Charles C Compton Chapter, thanks for reminding me. We met a few times, but it didn’t kick off, didn’t kick along. I don’t know how many times we met, but it didn’t kick along at all.
What about the other Chapters?
HM: We didn’t have any others.
Oh yes you did. One in Toowoomba and one up north as well.
HM: That’s right, one at Mount Isa, Cliff Jury. That just shows you how I forget things. I knew there was one here in Brisbane. I am not very helpful am I.
I thought you would have known more.
HM: I am not dodging you deliberately, but why comment on things I don’t recall.
I agree a problem with someone and he was sort of fishing for information from me to feed it back again. There is no point in that. So you didn’t have much to do with the Chapters. Have you had anything to do with the start of AICUM as it is, the Institute of Credit Union Managers?
HM: No. Probably I might have been responsible for starting something like this. Now it comes back to me. I was a member of the Queensland Commercial Travellers’ Club and I don’t know whether I was responsible completely on this one, but I played a part in it, when every month we used to have a meeting of a few Managers for lunch at the Queensland Commercial Travellers’ Club. We would have a luncheon and a guest speaker. I think from that, the Institute of Credit Union Managers up here might have started. There was a Credit Union Managers set up when the one that I organised faded out. People always found some reason why they couldn’t attend. So they set up another one then. I remember the one I set up where we used to meet every month, we did that for about six to eight months. We had some interesting guest speakers. We used to chat about credit unions, our own credit unions, and it was good to get together and meet other credit union Managers. I think it served his purpose and from that probably sprang the idea they should get together and organise it.
What did you call it?
HM: No name, just a meeting.
Peter Timmins came into the movement as Chief Executive Officer?
HM: Peter Timmins was there, I remember Peter Timmins.
Well he instituted those meetings of Managers along with the AFCUL Board Meetings. Wherever the Board Meeting was.
HM: That was nothing like the one I organised, it was just a simple get together ours. The Institute of Credit Union Managers meets here regularly does it?
Now it does have a local one yes, but the main thing is the Albury Conference annually. Australian Institute of Credit Union Managers. Graham Humphreys, New South Wales, is the President, has been for years.
HM: I never attended one of those.
There is another one which came under the Australian Institute of Management which was John McIntyre and they joined together.
HM: Don’t remember that either.
There was the start of the Institute of Credit Union Directors, ICUD, Bruce Robertson, did you have anything to do with that?
HM: No.
The situation is now that each State has an Institute of Credit Union Directors and they come together and they have got an Australia-wide body as well.
HM: Do they meet regularly? From here too?
Yes they meet regularly, from here too.
HM: Very good. I am glad you informed me of this information.
It is not the purpose of my visit, I am trying to get information from you.
HM: Keep trying Richard.
This is beyond your area Ian Larsson and Bill Howe.
HM: I knew Ian Larsson and Bill Howe and Richard Crosbie, just knew of them that is all.
Incidentally, I did ask you before but I don’t think we followed it through, do you remember the Len Hedger resigned and started the Federation of Queensland Credit Unions from his own Sun State Credit Union, now? Were you around at that time, or had it passed beyond your time?
HM: It must have been because we had a meeting of representatives of the Federation and this League in Noel Kendall, the Auditor’s office, one day I recall. I can’t remember what we were discussing, might have been discussing getting together again. I remember that, so the Federation was formed while I was something to do with the League. I think Bill Robson was the Chairman at the time, but I am not sure.
Is Bill Robson still around here?
HM: Yes, but I don’t think he is very well.
Maybe I should get to him.
HM: I will give you his address and phone number.
What about Gail Geronimos at the university, did you have much dealings with her?
HM: You mean credit union-wise? Yes. Gail and I used to meet on League Board business. She would come to the Teachers’ Credit Union for the meetings we had down there. She was Chairman of the University Credit Union. Very energetic and a live-wire of course. A good thinker. No further comment.
Some of the others, Ray Lyons?
HM: Yes I was very friendly with Ray Lyons, but when the split up occurred in 1985 I think Ray Lyons fell away as my friend and didn’t appreciate what I was doing. As far as the Managers of credit unions were concerned I was the bad boy in that whole process. Some of the Managers were anti-me, from my point of view I don’t know why.
How were the sides drawn in that?
HM: Well you mean the business of Teachers’? It was just the Board on one side and the Manager on the other.
After that Lloyd Hawkins became Chairman of the League.
HM: Yes he became Chairman of the League. He became General Manager of the credit union and Chairman of the League, that’s right. He was on the League Board when I resigned, though not quite resigned. When this trouble came up certain people on the League Board, the Managers and the newly elected Board of Teachers, wanted me to be removed from the League Board. I don’t know why, I hadn’t done anything to the League. But the Managers of credit unions had probably been fed mis-information from another source and that said I was the bad boy. I told the League Board as far as I was concerned the rules said that once a member had been elected to the Board of the League he served his term and I said I was staying there until I had served my term, and I stayed. If I was elected by the members of the credit union at a League Meeting I don’t think I should have been removed from that League Board just because of what I was reported to have done. If I had misbehaved myself I could understand it, but I had not. I had done nothing to affect the League in any way. I was a member of a credit union Board that had decided to take action. What else can you do? If you don’t agree with the action well the next thing you have to do is get off. But the decision was to appoint a top man over the then General Manager and I supported it. What happened as a result of that, of course, was his own doing but I was blamed for it apparently in the eyes of some people.
Another aspect of credit unions, not particularly in Queensland it was all over Australia, Tom Kelly used to organise meetings of millionaire credit unions, did you attend any of those?
HM: I remember that. I didn’t attend any of them. I thought why a millionaire credit union, all credit unions were credit unions as far as I was concerned. I went out to some dairy town in Warwick or Stanthorpe and formed a credit union, they were credit unions. I never went for this big credit union and little credit unions. I think millionaire credit unions were all right, but so was the little one that was struggling. They were helping people just the same as the millionaires.
It was actually an attempt, so Tom Kelly tells me, to include the un-affiliated credit unions and the affiliated ones.
HM: I see. That could have been. It might have been some attempt to get them back in to the AFCUL or League area. I don’t know whether it was justified. Why spend money and time on those when they have got plenty of money and time for themselves. The little credit unions are the ones that wanted the attention. Beresford Calverley did more for the credit union movement, particularly the little fellow, than anybody else. Stan Arneil did it to.
End Tape 1B: 4665 Words: 1 hour 25 minutes