24 SEPTEMBER 1991: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM CORCORAN
I will ask you Mr Corcoran, where were you born and when?

TC: I was born in Canungra, small country town about forty-five miles south of Brisbane, on 28 July 1921.

Did you grow up around there?

TC: Yes, I was there until 1942, apart for a year away at school.

What was it like around there when you were a child?

TC: Well my parents were virtually pioneers in that area. They selected property there in 1914, I think. My father was a timber-worker and later a dairy farmer. As I say a very small town which has been fluctuating somewhat, largely as a result of the Army establishing bases there, it is the current Warfare Centre, on Corcoran property incidentally at the moment. But in early days very heavily a timber town. My father was a timber-worker before he selected a dairy farm. I went to a one-teacher school, a classic one-teacher school. The story my family always laugh about, I always think how easy kids get it these days, we used to run three miles to and from school, after you had milked fourteen cows and that sort of stuff. It is a great joke in the family. I am the fourth son of a family of five. All grandparents came from Ireland back 1860s.

What sort of influence do you think you got from your parents?

TC: Very much the Irish-Catholic sort of influence. Our friends were our relations really. My cousins were the people that we mixed with. If you visited anybody it was by horse and buggy of course in those early days and it was your relations in that area, actually at Tambourine, which is very close to Canungra where all our grandparents settled, around that area. Incidentally my wife comes from the same area, so it is a very close-knit sort of community and I am very much a family man, still am. We have got six children ourselves and seven grandchildren, so we have carried on the tradition somewhat. In fact I struck a cousin of mine not so long ago at a funeral. She said she, “I was very sad to see everybody here Tom on days like this.” I said, “Yes there are a few of us around Joan.” She said, “Yes we were buggers to breed weren’t we.” That is it.I went off to school for one year at Sacred Heart College in Toowoomba, I was a boarder at Downlands in 1936, largely at the influence of my teacher who felt I had some ability somewhere or other and talked my parents into sending me away, although we really couldn’t afford it. I hated it anyway, I was a country boy who had never been away from home, so after one year at Downlands I succeeded in talking them out of my going on, so I finished school in 1936. I finished my education in 1936.
I came back and worked on the family property until I was called up into the Air Force in 1942. Service in Australia, Canada, trained in Canada, and a couple of years in England as a navigator for Bomber Command.

What was your first job?

TC: On the farm at home. My first real job was the Public Service after the War. My only job incidentally. I joined the Public Service and worked in Treasury and finished in Treasury in charge of the Queensland office.

Your service career? Were you called up?

TC: No I volunteered. Aircrew were all volunteers for overseas. As I said, I trained initially in Australia in Sydney as a navigator on heavy bombers.

Did you get the full training in Canada?

TC: Not really, you do your air observer’s training, the navigation training, then you go on to more advanced training with an advanced flying unit and then you go to operational training where you pick up your crew and they you get converted on to the planes that you are going to operate on and then you go on to an operational squadron. I was based in Yorkshire most of the time.

So you were bombing over Germany?

TC: Yes I did a full tour over Germany, thirty-two trips over Germany. I had a brother who was on the same squadron before me. He was killed at Nuremburg, the night we lost ninety-six. I wasn’t on the squadron at the time, I was about a fortnight away from the squadron, when he went missing. Len Talty also got the DFC then, also a navigator.

So on your trips were you lucky, or did you get hit at all?

TC: Had the parachute on a few times, but nothing dramatic. I always like to think it was my skill as a navigator that kept us safe, but that is probably not so. I had some fairly nasty operations, mostly over the Ruhr. The one that I disliked most was a place called Kemmlitz, which is a long way into Germany further than Berlin, where you are flying over enemy territory for a long time. But as it transpired I don’t know whether we bombed the target or not, but we bombed something over there. Nothing dramatic, I wasn’t wounded or anything like that. I do carry a war wound, but I fell off a bike and broke my elbow.

Did you fly on a variety of planes?

TC: Yes I started training on Avro-Ansons, an old twin-engine thing that might be familiar to you. Then on to Wellingtons. Then on to Halifaxes and stayed on them with the Halifax Squadron, the Hanley-Paige Halifax four-engine heavy bomber.

How many different camps were you at in England?

TC: I was in Scotland first off, at Dumfries, that is excluding holding camps like Brighton. Operational camps, Dumfries in Scotland then to Morton Marsh, down in the south-west, then up into Yorkshire to a place called Ruffett, and then to Leconfield where they operated from, which is north of Hull. Outside of Beverley, north of Hull. Back to Brighton. Back up to Milang, took a contingent of people back up to Milang at a holding depot there. Back to Australia in late 1945.

You crossed a lot of my tracks there. My sisters was at Morton-in-the Marsh in the Air Force. She married a Canadian. She was adjutant of a squadron, an English squadron. She married a Canadian from one of the Canadian squadrons.

TC: I had two crews. After I fell of the famous bike I had a second crew and the bomb aimer was a Canadian.

So when you got back to Australia what did you do first?

TC: Well due to the influence of a Vocational Guidance Officer when I was being demobilised I got some education. I did the senior matriculation in 1946 intending to do a Diploma Course in Architecture. Not because I felt I was going to be an architect, but I had to do something. This lass was very kind to me, she really pushed me on. I suppose in some ways I was ill-advised. I was cunning enough to get through senior in one year and in 1947 that Diploma Course became a Degree Course and I went to university full-time. But I found I was doing subjects at first year university that I had never done before like chemistry and pure maths. It was a bit too much of a battle. I did first year full-time in 1947, missed those two subjects, chemistry and pure maths. They deferred my course and gave me a year off to do those two subjects, but at the end of that year my mates had gone on and I was getting nowhere with it so I gave in that course and changed to commerce. I joined the Public Service. Got married in 1950. Went back to university from about 1954 to 1964, as a part-time student. Did Accounting and got my AAEQ Degree in Commerce in 1964. Meanwhile plugging away in the Public Service and helping my wife raise size kids.

So as far as credit unions go, when did you first hear about them?

TC: Well probably, oddly enough, not until I was dragooned into this credit union in about 1963 I would say.

You didn’t hear about it at the start here?

TC: No not really. I got my background knowledge of credit unions after I joined the credit union. I didn’t come across any of the wartime men who were famous in credit unions at all. I didn’t strike them. So 1963 I would say I was inveigled into being what was called a Register Keeper. Our accounting system in those days was that if I got a loan I repaid that loan by way of a series of post-dated cheques. So the Register Keeper got this big bundle of post-dated cheques and to spread the cash-flow the fifteen Register Keepers would bank on 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, sort of thing to spread the cash-flow. So if I was Register Keeper seven I would bank all these cheques for all these loan people on 7th of each money. Stuart Wall, of whom you would have heard about in the credit union movement, he was the bloke that got me involved.

Was he working with you in the same area?

TC: No he was in Audit, I was in Treasury at that stage. He was auditing Treasury and round about that time I had just finished my Accounting and Stuart thought I might be a likely prospect and got me into this register keeping. From there to Treasure in 1964, as part of the Executive. In those days there was the Treasurer, Secretary and Executive Officer, three-member Executive. We liked to think we ran the credit union in those days and we virtually did, before we had any staff. The books travelled around in my briefcase, that was where they resided. We operated then from 1964 to 1967 and the Board was expanded in 1967 to take those three people on as Board members. We attended Board meetings but had no voting rights. We had a lot to say, but were often reprimanded by the Chairman saying that he valued our opinion but we didn’t have a vote. So in 1967 I came on to the Board, as did those other two people, Bob Gentner and Nev Dickson.

But you remained Treasurer until 1971 didn’t you?

TC: Well I am still officially Treasurer, which is unusual because there are not many credit unions who still have a Treasurer. The Executive Committee now consists of Len as Chairman, myself as Vice-Chairman and Treasurer and Kevin Ross who is Chairman of the Friendly Society and George Hanlon. There is still officially a position as Treasurer and I have been Treasurer since 1964.

I wasn’t aware of that. I thought that usually what happened was that the General Manager became Secretary and Treasurer as well.

TC: George is Secretary-Treasurer of the Friendly Society, but not of the credit union. I suspect that when my term finishes, which will be fairly soon because of age, the legislation will probably ensure that I step down when I am seventy-two and I am seventy now, that position might die with me.

So in fact you are still Treasurer. I have got you down as 1971 when George Hanlon took over.

TC: No George never took over as Treasurer, so I am still Treasurer.

There is one thing about this credit union, which I will also ask Len Talty about, that is the matter of Executive Officer and Internal Auditor. What was behind this post as opposed to doing what they did normally in credit unions and have a Supervisory Committee?

TC: We have always been a sort of a working Board. You will find that our Board, as opposed to most credit unions, still approve loans. When I finish talking with you I am going down with George and we will form a Loans Committee and we will approve the loans and it is always done like that. Certain members of the staff have delegations up to a certain level, but the higher level delegations still are with the Board and the General Manager.

Most credit unions still do that.

TC: Most of them have a Loans Committee don’t they?

Sometimes a sort of revolving one.

TC: So that position was before we had any full-time staff at all of course. Bob Gentner worked in Audit and he was appointed as the Board’s Executive Officer and Internal Auditor.

You see the one thing that I am getting at is this, in this particular question, to have one Internal Auditor, internally auditing, and Executive Officer to the Directors that means he is so to speak subordinated to the Directors. Whereas a Supervisory Committee it is their job to overview the Directors.

TC: We have never worked like that. The Internal Auditor really until fairly recently has been a Board member. Alan Hill, who is a member of the Board, also a former auditor, is now Chairman of the Audit Committee. We now have an Audit Committee. He would have been Internal Auditor until we appointed a full-time Internal Auditor and now he is Chairman of the Audit Committee that oversees the operation of the Internal Auditor. So the internal audit was done by the Executive Officer who happened to be an Auditor as well.

So when you came to the credit union where were the premises and how did the credit union operate?

TC: You know the background to this credit union, I suppose, it was formed by the Union, the ACOA. Originally, to be a member of this credit union you had to be a member of the Union. It was actually started by a grant of two thousand pounds by the Union. The investigation work for setting up this credit union was done by a Sub-Committee of the ACOA Union. They recommended the formation of the credit union and it was formed by some thirty members, all of whom were fairly prominent Union members of the time. It spread from there. The funds came from this two thousand pounds that the Union donated and what ever could be scrapped up around the place from the unionists. The drive for it really was to provide a source of unsecured funds for members of the Union, quite specifically the ACOA Union. It was broadened slightly later on, when it took ACOA out and said you had to be a member of the appropriate Union. Then the appropriate Union was defined in the Third Division area as being the ACOA. A further development then came when we took over what was the Fourth Division Credit Union. They had started a credit union, the Fourth Division people, but largely due to a lack of appropriate volunteers to run it, it started to founder and we absorbed it. So that broadened our bond a little further. If there has been any sort of battle in this credit union it was the battle to get that requirement removed that you had to be a member of a Union before you could be a member of this credit union. It went on over a series of meetings. I notice in the questions you ask if there were any memorable meetings, well they were the memorable meetings that this credit union had. There was quite strong and organised opposition from the Unions, particularly the Fourth Division Union, they used to bring people in by the truck load to General Meetings to stop this bond getting through.

How did you deal with it?

TC: Well just by talking to the Union people. Eventually by persuading them that it was necessary that we do this. If you think about, the number of ACOA members in Queensland where the Public Service is not very big, or wasn’t in those days, our potential membership was very small. We have always taken money from people outside the membership because the money wasn’t there to fund the operation. So we have always taken money from outside. Eventually we talked to the Union people and they saw the logic of it and we got it through. So we have now expanded to what we are, which is any member of any of the three tiers of service, government service, State service or the local government as well as any of the instrumentalities and their families. So we have broadened the bond and that is probably where it will stay I think.

So these meetings you had, which you say were fairly stormy meetings, were the votes, including the vote for the Board, all by show of hands or was it postal votes?

TC: No we have never had postal votes. It has always been people present at the meeting eligible to vote and voting.

That would be very fraught with you people rounding up members to bring into a meeting?

TC: Well yes on both sides. We frankly felt we played it correctly. We persuaded members, we certainly didn’t go to the lengths of laying on a bus to bring people down from the Air Force base at Amberley, as happened on one occasion. It got to the stage where it was very close even on that occasion. The vote was beaten just marginally, beaten by one vote the last time, but by the time we brought it up again we had at that stage persuaded the Union that this was the way to go. We, in fact, had Union support from then on and it went through quite comfortably.

Exactly who was it at the Union who was doing the fighting?

TC: Well it was actually the Fourth Division Secretary who was the prominent member, a lady whom I probably shouldn’t mention. Well I think she got into some trouble with the Union since then. Maureen Packer was the Secretary.

It was she that was behind the main push to make sure that rule was not changed?

TC: Well I think in fairness to them, they had some perception that there would be some sort of infiltration of people outside the Union. There was sort of compulsory Unionship virtually enforced in those days. Just about everyone in the service was a member of a Union and they were fairly jealous of any sort of leaching of their rights over members. In fairness to them, I think they thought they were doing the right thing by the credit union and by their members. It has always been a fairly valued thing as far as the Union concerned. The Union has always seen it as our credit union, and it was rightly so because all credit for the formation of this credit union must go to the ACOA. They had a proprietary feel about the credit union and felt that they were losing some of that ownership. But when we were forced to take over the Fourth Division one to save it, and save the people who were involved of course, that weakened their case somewhat. That is really the only trauma in terms of management that we have had.As to premises, I didn’t answer your question, we moved around a little bit at that stage. We were largely based with the Union in the early days up in Adelaide Street in black boxes in Ferguson’s Building. Then we moved with the Union down here into Welsh Street. By that time we had started to have full-time staff and we were expanding. We went back with the Union into Adelaide Street but found that we were getting to the stage where we were the dog rather than the tail. At that time we had a member on the Board who was the Commonwealth Chief Valuer and he kept his ear to the ground and we eventually bought a building in Queen Street. The owners were rather strapped for cash and it was put up for auction and we got it at a fairly reasonable price due to the good offices of this gentleman. We were there for a number of years. Then this came on the market and we thought this was an appropriate site, a better site than the one we had over there. We had no parking and a number of difficulties over there. We got this at a reasonable price and sold that one at a very good price. We refurbished this one, here we are and here we will stay.

What about being Treasurer at the various locations?

TC: Fairly interesting days being Treasurer in those various locations. It was very much a situation where you virtually knew everyone in the credit union in those days. If you were approving a loan the odds would be that you would know the person. Funds were always short. We didn’t have payroll deduction, as we have it in these days. You couldn’t anticipate the Commonwealth payroll coming in on the Wednesday each fortnight. We were very heavily dependent on outside funds. It even got to the stage where somebody would come in and say, “Look Tom, my nephew wants a loan.” We would have to say, “Don we haven’t got any money at the moment. We are not advancing any.” “Well, I have got a spare few thousand, if I put it in the credit union can you lend it out to him?” It was very much that sort of a family arrangement where it was a personal contact sort of thing that got the funds in really. It was a handwritten cash book.

So were you actually writing the books during the whole of that time? There was a group of you?

TC: Yes. I would be writing up the cash books, signatory on the bank account along with Nev Dickson and Bob Gentner. Loans would be approved at a lunch-hour meeting and once a week we would write loan cheques and farm them out to these Register Keepers, these blokes who banked on the 3rd, 5th, 7th, whatever day was theirs.

So you actually had to have hands-on operation of the credit union in the early days?

TC: Indeed. 30 June was a big deal in Treasury as far as I was concerned. It was even bigger in the credit union because we would come in on the Saturday after 30 June and we would just work on through, just balancing and adjustments and winding-up the accounts. Bob Gentner and myself and Nev Dickson and anybody who was around.

As far as the Chair of the Board, there seems to be some slight differences as to who was going to be Chairman in the first place. Do you know anything about that?

TC: Only hearsay. The original Chairman was a fellow called Margrie. Frankly I think he was the subject of a coup. He was an Army man, as it was in those days, and I think he was out of town for a couple of meetings and I think he lost his job while he was away. I think the Chair was assumed by somebody else in his absence. That is how it has come down to me as to what happened.

That tallies with the records. I was reading the Minutes and there was nothing said like that, but something happened.

TC: That is what happened. He was out of town for a couple of meetings and they took the opportunity. Apparently the rest of the Board weren’t happy with him and they took the opportunity. It may well have been the Unions, but I don’t know that much detail, but that is how it happened.

What about some of the other Chairmen? What about Mr Bath?

TC: Yes I knew Peewee quite well. He was Chairman for some of the time while I was attending Board Meetings as Treasurer. You will notice that there is a fairly strong Tax influence there. Bath is an ex-Tax man, A E Garske, Tax and then Audit. Jack Dome was Repat, Veteran’s Affairs, Frank Jennings was Tax, he wasn’t Chairman for very long. Then the Chair was shared around. I don’t want to sound like a King-maker, but I was fairly disenchanted with one particular episode at a General Meeting and I felt it was time we changed Chairmen. We had a series of Chairmen on sort of trials for about three months. At the end of those three months Len Talty was elected and has been Chairman ever since.

Trial Chairmen, did you try?

TC: No. I never had any ambition that way. Treasurer and Vice-Chairman suited me fine. Even recently Len has suggested he should stand down so that I could be Chairman for a couple of years before I throw it in, but I don’t have any ambition to be Chairman.
What about the Secretaries, McPherson in the first place what was he like?

TC: Yes, Lex McPherson.

What Department is he in?

TC: He was in I think the old Primary Industry. Went to Canberra from here. Most of these fellows were fairly senior public servants of course.

Lex McPherson was Post Office.

TC: Different one I think.

Unusual it should be the same sort of nickname.

TC: Yes. Probably Alex I suppose. As I say most of the official-type blokes were fairly senior public servants about the place who were grabbed by somebody saying how about them doing a bit of a stint for the credit union.

What about Larsen, he was only there briefly?

TC: Didn’t know him.

A D White?

TC: Arthur White. He was Secretary in the early days when I was Treasurer. Again he was a senior public servant, Chief Property Officer eventually, part of Admin Services. He left and Neville Dickson then became Secretary and a very fine and competent Secretary he was. He is now State Manager of Medibank and is a Board member on the Friendly Society. He was a Board member at the same time I was, 1967, came across when the Executive Committee were taken on to the Board. Left the Board only in probably 1974, when we formed the Health Benefits Society because he was working for Medibank. He thought there would be some conflict of interest there, so he resigned from the Board for that reason. Still a very firm follower of the credit union.

What about Treasurers, your predecessor Downey, Barber and Bourne.

TC: Yes Cyril Bourne. Ron Barber was a fellow who worked in Tax and Army eventually. He was heavily involved in Union affairs as well.
End Tape 1A: 4457 Words: 1 hour 35 minutes

24 SEPTEMBER 1991: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM CORCORAN
We didn’t quite finish that, did we?

TC: We were on about Treasurers and Ron I think we were mentioning. He was heavily involved. He moved away from the credit union and became very heavily involved in a trading co-operative that the Union also started. It was a very active Union and they had a trading co-operative and Ron was the Treasurer of that for some time. Then he got a job slightly out of town so he gave that away too. Now sadly deceased, Ron.

What about the things that the credit union got into? You got into the medical benefits end of things and there were a number of other things that the credit union got involved with?

TC: Not in a large sense. The involvements again came because of the interests of particular people. We got into health benefits because of the involvement of a fellow, his name you haven’t got anywhere there and he should get a mention, Ralph Price. He worked in the Commonwealth Department of Health. We saw some advantages in establishing what is called a closed fund, health benefits fund. Again you have to be a member of the credit union before you can be a member of the Health Benefits Society. It is what the Department calls a closed fund.

Was Ralph Price a Director of the credit union?

TC: Oh yes.

Well in that case I will pick him up all right.

TC: Oh yes, you will get him okay. Also sadly deceased. You will see his photo hanging on the wall outside. Very dedicated worker for the credit union in the early days. He and Alan Hill, who is still with us, were what we called the MOD Register Keepers, the Money on Deposit Register Keepers and Internal Audit, they did all that sort of thing. Ralph was a great worker.

The payroll deductions, getting them, do you remember? Were you involved in that at all and can you tell the story?

TC: Well not so much I suppose. I was involved really because I worked for Treasury. That was the conduit where they came through. The actual history of our getting them, the sort of development of the policy, escapes me a little bit, I must admit. I would have to sort of browse back through the documents in some way to remember the way it happened. I can remember dealing with the First Assistant Secretary in Treasury over it. In fact I got into some trouble because I was so involved with the credit union and he thought there might be some difficulty because I had such a high profile in the credit union and it may not been seen as appropriate for a senior Treasury man to be so heavily involved. But I persuaded him there was no problem.

Did you think you were passed over for promotion because of your involvement with the credit union?

TC: No, certainly not. I could have had interstate and overseas promotion had I wanted it. I spent a lot of my time thinking up reasons why I shouldn’t go anywhere because the problem was you would finish up in Canberra. If I had gone overseas I would never have got back to Brisbane. I had very strong family and sporting and religious and all sorts of contacts here and always seemed to be somebody doing senior or junior in our family, when you have got six kids, or starting university or whatever. So it never seemed quite appropriate. I managed to keep them quiet by spending some time in Canberra. I went to Papua-New Guinea three times for them and that sort of thing. I must say they didn’t hold it against me. When the top job became available here, I got the top job, so it certainly didn’t affect my promotion in any way.

You said you went to Papua-New Guinea a few times for the Treasury, but do you know anything about the push of credit unions into Papua-New Guinea and the assistance given by the Reserve Bank?

TC: I have been at a conference where Papua-New Guinea representatives have been invited and there has been some information sort of given out about their attempt to re-establish them. They had been established and fallen on hard times. That is almost a racial problem that they are going to have, because I went to Papua-New Guinea to set up a branch of Treasury up there. The Commonwealth Department of Works ran a Treasury Branch up there and I went up to establish and train the officers up there. I went up again to see that it was going okay. The third time I went was just prior to independence when we took over what was called the Ex-Patriot Payroll, people who were paid from Australia so they came on to our payroll down here. We have a son who spent five years in Papua-New Guinea, seconded to the bank up there to train the local people up there.

What is his full name?

TC: Thomas Mark Corcoran.

Did he know David Loring, because he was up there working for the Reserve Bank on credit unions?

TC: Well I am sure he would have done. I must ask Mark if he knew him. The credit unions are going to have the same problem that the bank had, as I see it. Getting these people through in the banking system, you get them up to Manager but then they run into the one-talk system. The family come in and because you have got a good job, because you are in a position of authority, it’s almost incumbent upon you to approve loans that you wouldn’t normally approve in the course of business. I just wonder whether credit unions are not going to have the same sort of problem in that they will be persuaded by the pressure of this one-talk system, a so-called family grouping, to give money to people who are really not in a position to handle it.

Were you party politically involved at all?

TC: Never, no.

The reason I am asking is, because there is something that happened in Queensland, and it also happened in New South Wales at the same time too, I believe that the Federal Government made some grants to employ Field Officers to try and spread credit unions into the Aboriginal community. Do you remember anything about that?

TC: Yes. That is so. There was a continuing movement, I think funded through the Foundation who is probably doing it now. A recent conference was addressed by somebody who was involved in one of the Aboriginal communities out there. I don’t have any first hand knowledge of it. That is the only information I have of it.

I happened to notice one when I was out at the Queensland State Archives yesterday. The Registrar’s files have all been thrown out somewhere. I don’t know where they are. I presume they are in the Archives somewhere. But they are not available any more, since 1986. So the history of the credit union movement is dependent on some of those files, not only files but quite a number of the Registers which don’t seem to be available. They have got a book there that consists of photocopied entries of when they were struck off the Register and I notice the Cherbourg Aboriginal one was struck off very early. Didn’t go for very long at all.

TC: I don’t have any first-hand knowledge of any of that at all.

Did you go to Credit Union Schools when you first started in the credit union?

TC: No, not really at all. We weren’t even affiliated with the League in the early days. We resisted affiliation with the Queensland Credit Union League for many years. We thought they were a fairly inefficient body. I suppose it was somewhat upstart of us, we thought we were going along fairly nicely without any assistance. We did get a lot of assistance from sister credit unions. In each State there was virtually a CPS Credit Union. There still is in a lot of States, a CPS Credit Union. They were established earlier than we were and they were further down the development track than we were and we got a lot of assistance from them, particularly Canberra and South Australia. So that was where we were learning. But of recent times, when we became affiliated with the League, there is a Board policy now that says you must attend certain conferences within the first two years of being a Director. There is the Credit Union Directors thing, of which I have been only a fleeting member. There is plenty of development and training available now. But in the early days no. It was all hands-on stuff, we learnt on the job.

So you didn’t attend the Chapters?

TC: No.

What about helping other credit unions?

TC: Yes, largely within the sister group. We have sent staff to other credit unions. The Northern Territory had some problems at one stage, and we sent staff off there. Similarly we have sent staff on a learning process. Somebody would get a new system, or something, that we were about to install up here so they would go down to Adelaide or wherever. So there is a lot of exchange largely within this group. There is a loose federation of these. We have just had a conference down the Gold Coast. We have just hosted the eighteenth conference of that group, of CPS Credit Unions. The first one was held in Sydney or Melbourne. I attended number one and I attended the eighteenth. Hopefully I will attend the nineteenth as my last conference, which will be in Tasmania.

That is the eighteenth conference in 1991, so that must have started in that case in 1973?

TC: You can’t work it back like that, because they are now not held every year. They were originally every year, but they are now every eighteen months or two years depending on where they are. I suppose about 1970 would be the first one, that is my guess. The person who is responsible for that development is Stuart Wall, he was the man who pushed very strongly to have those conferences of CPS Credit Unions started. He is the book of wisdom on that.

I don’t know whether he has been recorded. He is being a bit coy, I think, at the present moment.

TC: He might want to be paid, our Stuie, you never know. That is only an in-house joke that one. You should get to him.

I have been trying to actually, but he always refers you back to his book, you see. It doesn’t tell you an awful lot about him anyway. I found that it was mainly about the efforts of the foundation of the Canberra credit union.

TC: Yes, The Morality of Money, yes.

A lot of it was about how to start a credit union and how to run one.

TC: Yes and on lengths of Board Rooms. Their Board table is an inch and a half longer than this one, or something or other. That is a fairly important piece of information in his book.

I mentioned Dermot Ryan and you mentioned that you knew him. How did you know Dermot Ryan?

TC: Only as a sort of name involved in credit unions.

Do you know any of the Dermot Ryan stories, in that case?

TC: No. Only I think related by Kelly, or some of those people I think.

There are some hilarious stories either told by or about him. On the national scene, for instance in this town Merv Callaghan has been active right from the start on AFCUL, has anybody from this credit union been involved with AFCUL?

TC: Not really. As I say we were fairly late even joining the League, becoming affiliated with the League. Having made the decision to join the League because we felt that if we were not satisfied with its efficiency we should try and get somebody on the Board to do something about it. In fact Len Talty was on the Board for some years. He became fairly busy in his own job, he was Assistant Deputy Commissioner, and found he had to leave it. We now have a member on the Board. But that is as far as it went. We never had anybody directly as a representative on AFCUL.

What about the legislative lobbying? I suppose you couldn’t very well undertake any of that since you were Commonwealth.

TC: No I certainly couldn’t be involved in any of that. The credit union has always had a handle on that. George Hanlon is very heavily involved in that, he is on the Legislative Committee.

It was think on the national level when Dermot Ryan was the main protagonist there. On the other side, the people they were talking to, was Finance and Treasury.

TC: Oh yes. No I was consulted occasionally by Treasury on credit union matters. They were aware that I had a fairly heavy involvement here. They were in touch with me occasionally.

There is a wonderful story about Frank Crean and the bottles of beer. I haven’t managed to get this authenticated by anybody.

TC: No I don’t know it, sorry I can’t help you.

I have heard it from the credit union side, but I haven’t been able to hear it from the other side. Frank Crean said when I got on to him, he didn’t remember anything like that, but if they said so it must be right.

TC: Can’t help you on that one.

One of Dermot’s outrageous stories. Apparently one of the mandarins, as we outsiders call them, had a liking for Sydney beer and he brought some beer up. There was some argument as to whether they were going to open them.

TC: He wanted to be careful. That might be constituted as a bribe in a modern society.

I think it was two bottles.

TC: A very small bribe.

So you went on the Legislative Committee, is there any other Committees that you were on?

TC: The only real involvement I have had, stemming from League, I chaired a Sub-Committee that had a look at the investment policy of the Credit Union League. We were not satisfied. The group of nine large credit unions in Queensland got together and they were a bit dissatisfied with the League’s investment policy so they appointed a Sub-Committee to have a look at it and make some recommendations. I chaired that. I was an original appointee on the State Credit Union Advisory Committee when it was established under the new legislation in 1986. I had a couple of terms there. I was not re-appointed for a third term. There is a new set of appointees now.

You weren’t involved with the Savings Protection Fund?

TC: No. George Hanlon was the rep on the Savings Protection Fund from this credit union.

George Hanlon was on the Legislative Committee towards the setting up of a Reserve?

TC: That’s right.

What was the feeling of this credit union re reserves and them being compulsory and that sort of thing? You don’t seem to have been greatly involved in the push on the outside.

TC: No. We have always been just a little ahead of legislation really. Not in the early days, the establishing of reserves was the furthest thing from our minds. If you read through those Minutes, if they are recorded accurately, you will see that we made decisions prior to the 30 June whether we would make a profit or a loss. If we had some undistributed profits from the previous year we would perhaps make a loss this year and rebate the interest back to members. It wasn’t until we started to grow fairly dramatically that the establishment of reserves became a thing with us. We have always been in advance of the prudential standards that are set down by the legislation. The current legislation in Queensland is quite weak on prudential standards. We currently accord with the international banking standard which looks like coming in under the new legislation. We are in excess of that with our reserves ratio. Our liquidity is about double that required by the legislation. Our provision for bad debts is always a little tighter than the legislation talks about. So we are always well in advance of that. A very conservative Board.

Congratulations Mr Treasurer. What about your involvement with the World Council? Have you been on any world trips?

TC: No. Again we have never been very heavily involved in that. It is only recent years that we have come to ICUD and those sorts of places as a training medium. We see that as the primary source of training for new Directors to keep them abreast of credit union affairs. Never been involved in WOCCU, never been to any of the meetings or any of those trips. We tend to look at them slightly askance. I am not saying it doesn’t have a place, but sometimes it is seen as a bit of a junket I think by some people.

Well you can always argue that. However some of the people that work at it believe in it.

TC: Indeed. Some very dedicated people in WOCCU and I don’t suggest that they are not, but it just seems to be an activity that we have never been involved in, that is what it amounts to.

What about the Foundation. Has anybody from the credit union been involved in the Foundation?

TC: No. Limited support for the Foundation.

What about the involvement of the credit union with sponsorship of community activities or any such thing as that?

TC: Again fairly limited. We do sponsor certain sporting teams as a sort of a PR exercise. We have a staff member whom we sponsor, he is a member of the Australian hockey side. I was fairly heavily involved with the Commonwealth Games. We gave some money to the Commonwealth Games. We give money to the Heart Foundation. We have given money to appeals for Bangladesh. We have given money to the western floods out at Long Reach and those sorts of things. The various credit union week activities, we have always supported them. Fairly careful with our members’ money we tend to be.

Going around a lot of credit unions I find great differences between the activities and the way people sort of organise themselves. Spending their money as well, some of them are fairly liberal whereas other are extraordinarily tight.

TC: We are probably at that end of the range. We are seen to be tight. We like to think we are conservative.

I don’t think I have found one so far that you could really regard as junketing. They put a lot of work in for whatever they do.

TC: I don’t think that can be levelled at anybody. It is just from the outsider’s point of view that they think they are swanning off over to Wisconsin, or where ever, to a World Council, what comes out of it.

Well the World Council wouldn’t operate if it didn’t have somebody from some countries who went their regularly. Bill Howe has been one from here.

TC: Yes he has been a stalwart for years.

What about interstate, did you know people like Graham Benson who was on the World Council?

TC: Only as a name. Bill Howe I know. I have met him a few times because he became involved with the new movement, Project Renewal, he was involved with that.

Now what is your attitude to that as a credit union?

TC: We support Project Renewal. As a Queensland credit union of course we can’t be part of it, we are barred by legislation from being a part of any interstate organisation. That is fairly typical of Queensland legislation and that comes straight from the Premier. That is a Premier decision, Sir Jo Bjelke-Petersen would have made that decision.

But he is no longer Premier.

TC: Yes but Treasury have taken the same view and it has been very hard to change, very slow to change. The new legislation will overtake it, we expect it will overtake it. We support the impetus of Project Renewal.

Well there is a lot of criticism of it around.

TC: Oh yes. Also from us, we see some weaknesses in it too, we have got some misgivings. But the general thrust of it, the principle of it, the fact of a united body and centrally-controlled. The argument then devolves as to whether you need a second tier. What level do you need the second tier and that is what the real problem is here I think.

I don’t think what I have heard of so far, it appears to me that the people don’t think they are being properly represented. They are not on about the tiers at all. They are on about the fact that the Board is so small and there is nothing binding about the Council on the Board.

TC: Representation is one of the earlier problems we had. In fact, we submitted a paper on it which I largely wrote suggesting that it should be guaranteed in someway that there should be some State representation. As it is now there needn’t been any representative from any one State. But having said that, I don’t believe there should be representatives from a State just for the sake of having representatives from a State. They have got to be the right people and if it so happened that all the right people came from New South Wales and Victoria, I think you would have to be happy with that. Provided there is some conduit of information being passed backwards and forwards from the State credit unions, and that is what the Membership Council is for.

In Queensland, like other States of course, there has been quite a number of splits and fusions and splits again in the movement generally. Can you relate what you saw over the years in this regard?

TC: Well I suppose our involvement is the attempts by the League to get us to become affiliated. They used to come and address us and in those days they were mad keen on establishing new credit unions at any length.

I just asked you the question about the Queensland League and the split into the Federation.

TC: I don’t know a lot of the intimate detail. I tend to think it was basically a personality clash. Like the split, say in Victoria, probably won’t go away until the people have disappeared from the scene. There have been attempts, largely by Len incidentally, he has used his good offices in sort of keeping these two groups talking to one another. There is no real move for that Federation to come back under the League. What will happen under the new legislation when it becomes possible for a credit union to join a national organisation I don’t really know, I don’t think anybody has sort of sounded the Federation out as to what will happen. I would think that a number of the large credit unions here will join the national organisation. The question is then whether the existing League can continue to stay as an entity.

Both in Victoria and New South Wales somebody has set up another League in the wake of the one that is about to dissolve itself.

TC: Yes. It is a shame, I think, in some ways, regardless of the rights of wrongs, that people can’t sit down and talk the problem over and get to a solution, which ever way it might be. If any movement should be united, a co-operative movement should be united shouldn’t it.

The name change of the credit union to Society from Credit Union, why?

TC: Well it is historically a carry-over from the problems with had with the Unions. I incidentally resigned from the Union, that is a matter of some interest I suppose, at the stage when the Union became fairly militant. We are talking about striking, and in fact did call strikes. I was Regional Director of Department of Finance in those days and felt very strongly, and still feel very strongly that public servants don’t strike. I went to a public meeting held in the City Hall in which they pushed through a vote. It was an open meeting and there were no credentials presented, in fact anybody could walk in off the street, in fact I sat with all the Reserve Bank blokes. Anybody could vote and they pushed through what was a very close vote, a show of hands. We called for a Division, those of us who were objecting, but the Union just sort of pushed it through. I wrote to the President and told him that under the circumstances I could no longer remain a member of the Union because I thought it was an invalid vote. I offered and submitted my resignation and joined the Professional Officers’ Association. But we felt at that stage this credit union had some difficulty.

There was a sister movement called the Commonwealth Public Servants Permanent Building Society, have you caught up with that at all?

TC: It was one of the ones that got into trouble when they force amalgamated four building societies into the new Suncorp Building Society. A lot of people mixed up the credit union and the building society and we had a run on funds here, quite a significant run. We just couldn’t persuade people it was nothing to do with us. So we were always very careful from then on, always anxious to make sure we were seen as nothing to do with a Union because of the troubles we had with the Union and because of this industrial action that was going on at the time. So we pushed fairly heavily to get our name changed from Union to Society.

When you had a run on the funds did anybody come to your assistance?

TC: No, only the bank managers, we got an overdraft.

That must have been touch and go?

TC: The Ides of March we called it, 15 March. Very famous day in credit union annuls. It was amazing. I was also involved in the building society, departmentally, of course the Treasury were very concerned about it. I used to walk the streets to see what was going on. People were astonishing. The same thing happened with the Metway around here, unsupported, unexplained, unreasonable run.
End Tape 1B: 4471 Words: 1 hour 30 minutes

24 SEPTEMBER 1991: RICHARD RAXWORTHY TALKING TO TOM CORCORAN
There was one thing I didn’t ask you about the credit union itself, and it just suddenly occurred to me, the Executive of this credit union appears to me to be a little different from other credit unions. I wondered how this came about and what was your involvement?

TC: It came about, I suppose, as a method of bringing before the Board in greater detail matters that we felt needed to be researched in some depth. The common things that come before the Executive, like interest rate changes, are always done by the Executive Committee first. George would get the information. I as Treasurer would look over it. We would come to some sort of conclusion. Bring it before the full Executive Committee, which is Len, myself, George and Kevin Ross, who is the Chairman of the Friendly Society. It is quite common if there is any matter that needs to be looked at in fairly great detail it will go to the Executive Committee first and we will research it. Get George to get the information we need and then come up with a recommendation to be discussed at the Board. That is how it operates. It is there to look at matters that need something more than just a decision at a Board meeting on the night, even though the Board get the papers early on. If we feel it needs a bit of a work over it goes to the Executive Committee.

The Friendly Society, you have mentioned that several times, how did that start and is it anything to do with the credit union?

TC: Oh yes. It is CPS Friendly Society and is part of the credit union group. In fact this year, for the first year, we will be presenting our accounts in consolidated form. That will include the Health Benefit Society and the Friendly Society even though they are all governed by separate legislation. The credit union has got discrete legislation, Health comes under the National Health Act, and there is a separate Friendly Societies Act. But under a new accounting standard they are required to be grouped together now so that they are seen as one. Anything that is one sort of economic entity should have a set of consolidated accounts. So it is very much part, as is the Health Benefit Society, the Boards are the same, or the Management Committee in the case of the Health Benefit Society, the same people, with the exception of Neville Dickson who we brought back to get him on the Friendly Society. They are in fact all credit union Board people.

The Friendly Society, exactly what is its purpose?

TC: Well just to service the members, as is the Health Benefit Society. We see it as a service to members. It is a method of giving them a safe deposit for moneys in which the interest is tax-free in their hands. Friendly societies were picking up a lot of money and we felt we could do some service to members and get some money into the credit union that would normally be going to another friendly society.

What are the services to members?

TC: Including those? Well the normal services that credit unions run.

Friendly societies? That can be an incredible number of services in that.

TC: Purely a deposit mechanism, just interest bearing bonds that is all. We don’t do anything further than that.

None of the old fashioned things?

TC: No. None of the pharmaceuticals or anything like that.

They don’t act as a means of helping out people who are in trouble?

TC: No.

Well some of them are very much involved in all sorts of things. I am amazed at some of the things they get involved in.

TC: It is very hard to know where to draw the line. We in fact had before us last night a case, before the Board, with a long-standing member of this credit union, a very sad case in fact. He recently borrowed a significant amount of money because he had a daughter being married in Scotland. He went over to the wedding, taking his wife and family and leaving one son behind. While he was away the son came home and he was smoking a cigarette in bed and set fire to the house and destroyed a large part of the contents of the house, virtually gutted the house, which was heavily under-insured. The man was just about due for retirement, his intention was to pay out the credit union loan when he retired. So we had to come to a heavy decision as to what we could do about him as an individual at the moment and it is fairly difficult when you get to the stage of trying to treat one member differently. We rely very heavily on treating all members the same. We haven’t got into those sorts of things. We support people like Lifeline and St Vincent de Paul and those sorts of things, but we personally don’t get into any sort of community involvements ourselves.

There have been a number of suggestions that credit unions get involved in a number of things like that. I believe at one stage in the Teachers’ Credit Union in New South Wales they were talking about starting some sort of fund for people who did get in difficulties who were members. But it was ruled out under the Act.

TC: Yes. It is very worthy and it is appropriate that credit unions are seen as community bodies, but as you say, the legislation makes it difficult to be less than even-handed.

Dermot Ryan said, ‘Change the legislation’.

TC: Not that easy.

He did his bit.

TC: Yes. I think we are getting better at it now. The movement is getting better at it now.

Now is there anything else before we go on to your personal involvements outside the movement, is there anything you have been involved in in the movement, or in the credit union, that we haven’t covered as yet?

TC: I don’t think so. I think we have covered most of my involvement. I would hope to write some sort of history, rather George hopes I will write some sort of history of this credit union when I retire. Going back to that sort of starting point and upgrading that in some way. I feel that your credit union is different in some ways. The observations that I have made so far already on the tape seems to me to be that this matter of the Executive and the Internal Auditor is one of the major differences. The way you operate, the fact that you have still got a Treasurer. You still have an

Internal Auditor but you don’t have a Supervisory Committee. One thing I haven’t asked you, computerisation were you involved in any of that?

TC: Not really. By the time we went on to computers we started to have full-time staff of course. The Directors, or even the Executive Committee, were not directly involved in the hands-on operation. We were involved in the investigation of which way to go, of course, but not in the actual hands-on stuff. That came later when we had staff able to do that.

Well in that case I will turn to your personal involvements. I believe that you have been personally involved in quite a number of things outside the credit union.

TC: Well yes, I suppose that is right. As I was about to say to you before people keep saying to me, “What is retirement like Tom?” I say, “It is silly. I used to work in one place and get paid for it. Now I work in about eight and don’t get paid for any of them.” Family has always been a big concern of mine. In fact I suppose that comes from my family background. I married a lovely lady in 1950 and she has kept me in order since then. Six, thankfully healthy, children, seven grandchildren. They all live in south-east Queensland and we are all very heavily in contact. We have family gatherings where we get some twenty-three or so. I have a brother and sister still living. My sister still lives on the old home property of Canungra, on her own, and she is the eldest of the family so that is a bit of a worry. Sport I have had a big involvement. Cricket always. I have been a cricket fanatic. Have been cricket for the university since 1947 and went to Vancouver to play cricket with them last year. Hope to go to Christchurch next year to play cricket with them. Played all grades and all types in ‘varsity. Captain of the A Grade side. Member of the Executive for years. Life member of the Sports Association out at the university. University Blue for Baseball, which is a bit unusual in a university situation. Played a bit of tennis. Hard Court A Grade Tennis in between times. Bit of golf. I joined a golf club, but was too busy to take it up seriously. Religion, I suppose, is the other big involvement I have got. I am heavily involved in parish work. I was Treasurer of the Cricket Club so you always get involved in the money of course. I am Chairman of the Finance Committee at the local parish level and on a Deanery Committee that raises funds for respite care houses. I was on the Board of Southern Cross Hands which builds homes for the aged, a Catholic laymen’s organisation. I am now on the Archbishop’s Board of Finance, which is the senior financial Board in the Archdiocese. The Archdiocese Development Fund Board. Chairman of the Nursing Home Fees Review Committee of Inquiry for Queensland. There are various Sub-Committees around about the place. But that is about it for the moment.

Do the involvements that you have, both with the credit union movement and other outside bodies, has it ever sort of disrupted your family life?

TC: Not really. I have got a very understanding wife, who is very involved in a musical society, light opera sort of stuff. So we have fairly separate involvements. I seem to be able to fit them all in with watching sport with sons and daughters and what not. We have managed to find the time from somewhere for them all. It is a matter of time management, isn’t it? I really don’t have anything to add to that, I don’t think. I still hope to keep some involvement with this credit union. I have been with it too long to give it up lightly. I am a bit unusual in staying on this length of time as a Director. God willing I will spend another couple of years probably and then give it away. Thank you kindly for the opportunity to speak.

Well you got me in. Is there anything you can think of that in the first instance of which you are particularly proud related to the credit union movement?

TC: Yes, I am quite proud of this credit union. I think in all sincerity it is a fine credit union. I think it sticks very closely to the correct credit union philosophy that what we are on about is for the members. We stick very closely to that. It goes against my grain somewhat to see the size of the profits we make these days. If you go back, and it is not so long ago, when credit unions were spouting slogans like, ‘Not for Profit’, or ‘People Before Profit’. The legislation and regulation we have got now in these days is forcing us into, and rightly, making sizeable profits until we get to the situation we are seen as sound organisations. We can’t put ourselves out as sound organisations until we meet the prudential standard. But it is a bit of a sad day. I still like those days when we could decide whether we made a profit or a loss to make sure that all benefits went to the members.

What about the direction of the movement in general? Do you feel that the movement has let down its principles? Do you think they have managed to keep them up in accordance with what might be realistic?

TC: I think there is an attempt with this new movement to go back to the principles a bit. I think we have moved away, I think the movement has moved away in some cases. I think there has been a failure in some way to contain costs involved in running the movements. There has been some duplication of effort and there has been some unfortunate fragmentation of the movement which has been costly in itself. If they can get that back together, and that is going to be difficult. I think, there is going to remain in States some fragmentation and that may well include Queensland. Victoria certainly I think will be fragmented, but that goes back a long way and has got nothing to do with the new movement, that has been there for a long time. I think there is a perceived attempt with this new movement to get back to some of the credit union philosophy again which I applaud.

Have you heard about such credit unions as Maleny in Queensland and McAuley in Victoria that are trying some fairly radical methods in order to try and get people on the lower levels back in to credit unions?

TC: I know something of Maleny. The Manager of that was a member of the Credit Union Advisory Committee for some years. A very dedicated and competent lass. She has gone on to something different now, but still in the co-operative area I think.

I think she is working with the Council. May be a Councillor for all I know. But she certainly isn’t at the credit union any more.

TC: Certainly isn’t with the credit union any more. But she went on to something. She was very imbued with co-operative principles. I was aware that they were, among other things, looking to get some approval for credit unions as co-operatives to lend to other co-operatives. Start worker co-operatives and those sorts of things, which I would have to say we would shy away from. We are quite happy to lending to persons only.

They became even more radical than that because they were taking the attitude that in hard times one had to get back to the barter system. Bartering even of skills.

TC: Yes I remember Jill espousing that philosophy at the Credit Union Advisory Committee meetings. Barter system is alive and kicking though in the real world isn’t it. Unfortunately I don’t have anything to barter.
Well there is a big magazine which has been going for a few years now, virtually bartering skills.

TC: It is very much alive in the professional ranks, the dentist looking after the electrician and the electrician looking after the dentist and that sort of thing.

I am afraid the tax people are getting into the act.

TC: Yes, why not. Jealousy is a terrible thing, Richard.

They are saying that in actual fact if you are an electrician and you do something for somebody else, even if they do something back, then you in fact have increased your income. They even go so far as to say you have managed to avoid a bit of tax.

TC: Well yes. That would be a very easy argument to develop, wouldn’t it?

Any regrets?

TC: No, none at all. No regrets at all. Sometimes looking back I think perhaps I should have accepted some invitation to say to move overseas. I was always very concerned about what it might do to the family, but I think in looking at other families who have moved I think it only broadens the outlook of your children. I think it might have been a mistake, but I couldn’t have put up with living in Canberra I don’t think. That is about the only regret I think, and the fact that I was misguided enough to spend two years trying to do architecture down at the university when I was not equipped to do it, but that worked out all right in the long run.

Well thank you very much Mr Tom Corcoran.
End Tape 2A: 2753 Words: 50 minutes